California Passes Law Requiring Companies to Post Salary Ranges on Job Listings 112
Earlier this week, California passed a law requiring all employers based or hiring in the state to post salary ranges on all job listings. The law will also require California-based companies with more than 100 employees to show their median gender and racial pay gaps -- a first for a US state. Bloomberg reports: The bill will head to Governor Gavin Newsom, who has until Sept. 30 to sign or veto. He hasn't yet expressed a position and didn't immediately respond to a request for comment. If he signs it, the law would affect some of the biggest US companies, including Meta, Alphabet and Disney [...] California joins Colorado, New York City, and Washington state in adopting the job-posting tactic. Only Colorado's law is currently in effect; New York City-based employers will have to start listing pay ranges starting on Nov. 1. The New York state legislature also passed a similar bill that's awaiting Governor Kathy Hochul's signature.
If the California and New York governors, who are both Democrats, sign the pending laws, almost a quarter of the US population will live in states with such salary disclosure requirements. The California Chamber of Commerce opposes the bill, even after lawmakers stripped a requirement that would make all pay data public. New York City's rule also faced business pushback, which delayed enforcement by six months. "I think this becomes a tipping point, frankly," said Christine Hendrickson, the vice president of strategic initiatives at Syndio, which provides software that helps employers identify pay disparities. "It's at this point that employers are going to stop going jurisdiction by jurisdiction and start looking for a nationwide strategy."
If the California and New York governors, who are both Democrats, sign the pending laws, almost a quarter of the US population will live in states with such salary disclosure requirements. The California Chamber of Commerce opposes the bill, even after lawmakers stripped a requirement that would make all pay data public. New York City's rule also faced business pushback, which delayed enforcement by six months. "I think this becomes a tipping point, frankly," said Christine Hendrickson, the vice president of strategic initiatives at Syndio, which provides software that helps employers identify pay disparities. "It's at this point that employers are going to stop going jurisdiction by jurisdiction and start looking for a nationwide strategy."
Good idea, California! (Score:5, Interesting)
Not only does posting a job salary range prevent some salary discrimination due to age or gender, but it also helps me know what jobs aren't worth applying for. I've had more than a few incidents where I wasted my time doing a phone screen interview only to find out that these bozos were only offering 70% of the current market rate for the job position.
Re:Good idea, California! (Score:5, Interesting)
My company ran an online ad and got an applicant who was a self-taught programmer currently working at Burger King. He begged for a chance to prove himself, so we hired him at minimum wage ($15/hr in SJ) for a provisional period of three months.
We got another applicant with 20 years of industry experience who had personally designed and built many of the tools we were using. During the interview, he gave us solutions to many problems we were bottlenecked on. This guy even understood the Git command line. It was obvious that he was a goldmine of valuable skills. After some back-and-forth negotiation, we hired him for $250k.
These two employees were hired from THE SAME AD.
I suppose we could list the salary range as "Minimum wage to $250k", but is that useful to anyone?
Re: Good idea, California! (Score:5, Insightful)
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BytePusher makes a very good point. In the case of the BK "programmer" the person was hired out of band. He was not being hired for the advertised position. However, I could see someone in California turning that into a legal issue just to make a point.
The problem with many of these well intentioned laws, and I feel this is one, is that they can be misused.
I'm glad that more and more jurisdictions are banning the practice of requiring applicants to disclose previous pay scales. That practice really did
Re: Good idea, California! (Score:5, Insightful)
How? The BK programmer did not qualify for the job in the ad. The fact he joined your company based on the ad wasn't relevant - he wasn't qualified for the position.
Instead, he saw the ad, he saw he didn't qualify and effectively he cold-called for a job. You may be familiar with cold-calling as a sales technique where you just call up a random person and ask if they are interested in your product. Effectively the guy saw the ad, knew he wasn't qualified, but called in case you were looking for extra people (one job ad may hide many more jobs behind it).
You didn't hire him for the position, you created a new position for him because he had the guts to submit an application you weren't looking for. I'm sure the California law still allows for impromptu hiring of people through internal networks (i.e., referrals), as well as hiring people off the street who walk in looking for a job that may not be advertised.
It's certainly a valid technique - if a company wants a super senior person, and you know you'd never qualify for that as an entry level, it doesn't hurt to ask as there may be entry level positions open but unadvertised.
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Where I work they listed just 'security engineer' as the job title, but when they hired me they put me at 'security engineer II' which came with a bit of extra pay. I'm a bit curious if that law wouldn't allow this and effectively force everybody to be hired at exactly whatever level they applied for.
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bit curious if that law wouldn't allow this and effectively force
They may have to include in their job posting the Payscale of each of the related positions which they mean to hire for based off the posting, see
In addition to the expansion of pay data reporting requirements, SB 1162 would also expand an employer’s obligations under the pay transparency laws under Section 432.3 of the Labor Code. Specifically, employers would be required, upon an employee’s request, to provide the employee the
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For Washington state:
Disclosure of wage or salary range by employer—When required—Remedies. (Effective January 1, 2023.)
(1) The employer must disclose in each posting for each job opening the wage scale or salary range, and a general description of all of the benefits and other compensation to be offered to the hired applicant. For the purposes of this section, "posting" means any solicitation intended to recruit job applicants for a specific available position, including recruitment done direc
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So I hire you as "security engineer" and tomorrow promote you to "security engineer II". The pay difference of one day is hopefully acceptable to you.
Frankly, laws like that are easy to circumvent.
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I'm on the other coast, but the way our job descriptions and levels and bumps work is that there is a base which is what is posted, and then things kick in like years of experience with certain technologies, certifications, degrees beyond what the job description states as minimum, etc.
So when I applied for a "junior developer" position (moving from academic support side to ITS), the posted salary range was $53-75k, with the 53k end being "AS degree in software dev or HS diploma plus 2 years experience" as
Re: Good idea, California! (Score:2)
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This guy even understood the Git command line.
I didn't realise this was a rare skill. Can I get 250k at your company? I feel I should be paid a large bonus every time I need to fix someone's commit of the conflict file. Yes, git add file-with-conflict.php git commit -m "blah" will unstick your instance but I should legally be allowed to cut off your finger every time you do it.
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Hiring somebody for cheaper then they can make elsewhere isn't something to brag about because your just admitting that your abusing people and will lose them to a better deal.
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This guy even understood the Git command line.
Are there computer programmers that don't understand the git command line? That's kindof scary to me.
I agree with the rest of your comment though. As a small company, I post for a mid level programmer but sometimes hire someone either over or under qualified if it's a good fit and pay accordingly which might be way outside the initial pay range advertised.
Re: Good idea, California! (Score:2)
I personally use a mix of the command line and vscode's gui, depending on what I'm doing. And then of course, refer to stack exchange for the occasional one-off. Vscode has a nice, convenient "undo last commit" button that is quicker to do than "git reset --soft HEAD~1", plus I don't need to type anything to quickly glance at version diffs.
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This guy even understood the Git command line.
Are there computer programmers that don't understand the git command line? That's kindof scary to me.
I agree with the rest of your comment though. As a small company, I post for a mid level programmer but sometimes hire someone either over or under qualified if it's a good fit and pay accordingly which might be way outside the initial pay range advertised.
I've found that the best programmers, especially the ones with 15+ years experience, are the ones that struggle the most with git. At best, they learn to tolerate git and deal with the frustrations. Haven't met a great programmer that actually likes git yet.
It's the younger programmers - especially the ones that I'd never trust with the heavy responsibilities - that seem to deal best with git.
Maybe it's because I"m a game developer. Git's a terrible fit for big games. Git isn't great when most of your works
Re: Good idea, California! (Score:2)
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In that case, your initial job posting and requirements are absolute garbage. Good companies have specific roles they need filled. If they needed a junior programmer, they won't hire a senior one. If you eventually hired a senior programmer, it means you needed one to begin with and were trying to lowball some poor sap
You obviously haven't worked at very many small businesses. Job requirements and even tasks once hired are fluid. If I hire a Junior, I have to spend more time training them and they might be slower at certain tasks or can't do certain tasks so I have to continue to do those tasks myself. If I hire a Senior, I don't have to spend the time training them and I can give them harder tasks. If I had 10 junior, 10 mid level, and 10 seniors then I could give only junior tasks to juniors and only senior tasks t
Re: Good idea, California! (Score:2)
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Jokes on you! You're an AC shill on Slashdot, touting anecdotal evidence and bullshit rhetoric. Here I am, full UID, and I'll proudly say that I've spent several years time as a manager in more than one company, and fought first-hand to unfuck obvious pay scale injustice on many occasions, where equally qualified individuals (relatively same experience and same titles) had >20% pay gaps. If you think this shit doesn't happen in the US, you're either living under a rock or have found panacea, because I've
Re: Good idea, California! (Score:1)
Re: Good idea, California! (Score:1)
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We're a small company and every year when raises are discussed, we compare our employee's salaries and performance to each other and to what they can make elsewhere and give raises accordingly. Because we do this, our turnover is almost zero and most of our employees have been with us 10 plus years.
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I frankly don't give a fuck what fancy title the person calling me pretends to have. I care about the job they offer.
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No VP of any corporate will be in the hiring loop of an engineer.
Bullshit. I know of several large post-IPO companies where the CEO still personally approves every package that goes out.
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In other words for low skill jobs the salary is 16, for high skill jobs 50.
If a company lists a from-to range, consider the from closer to the reality they want to offer than the to.
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Yeah, the only downside of this is that companies won't be able to use the tactic of having an interview or more than one and then telling that the salary is below marker rate, relying on the candidate to accept it because he already went through the trouble of passing the interview.
Which is no downside at all.
Also, currently-employed people will be able to see if a competitor offers more and then either quit or use that to negotiate a higher salary.
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The really nasty thing they do is imply or just lie about the salary
Offers are made in writing and, once signed by both parties, are enforceable contracts.
stuck accepting their job because you probably turned down other offers
That makes no sense. Why would anyone turn down other offers before they receive any offer?
It's an extremely common trick I've seen
I don't think so, unless you know a lot of very foolish people.
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Offers are made in writing and, once signed by both parties, are enforceable contracts.
Lol.. they may be a signed offer, but it's typically an offer for At-Will employment.. Meaning the employer has the right to terminate the employment, or in other words to rescind the original offer and Offer the employee a different rate of pay "Take it or leave it" at any time they like.
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But what are you going to do, sue them?
Especially if you don't have another job to fall back on, they have you in a bind.
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Not only does posting a job salary range prevent some salary discrimination due to age or gender, but it also helps me know what jobs aren't worth applying for. I've had more than a few incidents where I wasted my time doing a phone screen interview only to find out that these bozos were only offering 70% of the current market rate for the job position.
Pretty much this for the UK... If you're not listing a salary range, I don't bother applying as the company is looking to get someone as cheaply as possible.
This means the people they've already hired are as cheap as possible with all the pitfalls that comes with. What companies are hoping for is to get that diamond who doesn't know what they're worth but in reality they get the coal that can't get a job anywhere else. So if you take the job, even as a diamond you'll still be treated as and weighed down
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Yeah . . . that uncomfortable moment when you tell the guy who will be the boss that you make more than they do . . . and have better benefits.
does CA have tipped wage? (Score:2)
does CA have tipped wage?
Re:does CA have tipped wage? (Score:5, Informative)
does CA have tipped wage?
No. California requires employees to be paid the minimum hourly wage. Tips don't count toward that. Tips are extra income on top of the minimum.
The other states that don't allow tip credits against wages are Alaska, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington.
It works (Score:5, Interesting)
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I think it's good, but there should be some clause that allows companies to pay people who are at the top of their game and contribute more, to be paid above the scale. I think the most important number maybe starts with the lowest pay for the position, currently. And they should always have to show that lower bound, concrete, not from a calculated range. But the upper bound maybe by a normalized number, like the outside edge of the bell curve at say 3 sigma. So people know they will be paid at least a numb
Now we need a law for resume hucksters (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd like to know if anyone here has had a similar experience and if so how they handled it.
I entered the job market some months ago and posted my resume to a number of different boards. Monster.com, indeed.com, linkedin.con and sites like that.
Then I started getting dozens of calls a day. Sounds good, right? Wrong.
All the calls are from these "recruiting" companies that download your resume and try to match you with a prospective job lead. These companies don't seem to have any relationship to the original job posting web site. Most of them are heavily accented south Asian (Indian) who have a long-latency voice connection. They all follow an exact script.
That in itself doesn't sound bad, but they insist on you confirming (by e-mail usually but sometimes online document signing) an "RTR" which to them is the "right to represent." That means for a company to hire you they will have an obligation to pay that recruiter. How much I don't know, but it seems that the employer now has a big disincentive to hire you because of whatever fee they are claiming.
There is rarely any follow-up. If the match fits then they get paid. If not they just move on to the next one. They're playing the numbers getting those gold nuggets out of buckets of sand. So far, speaking as a clump of the sand, I think I have given out 30-50 RTRs and most of them have been for companies I have never heard of but seem to have a requirement that fits my skill set pretty well. But so for, not one single interview.
So far I haven't minded because a) I am not in that urgent a situation, and b) the companies offered haven't been all that exciting so not getting hired there isn't a problem for me. But not getting any hits is a bit disconcerting. Has anyone had success in this puppy mill?
Re:Now we need a law for resume hucksters (Score:5, Interesting)
In healthcare, it's the same deal. List yourself on a job site, and it's constant phone calls from recruiters who want to collect their finder's fee for matching you with an employer. Go looking for an employer on a job site, and you have to sift through 10 recruiters to find one actual employer. (There's usually a checkbox to "exclude agencies" but it never works).
The fees are hidden from you, and you don't pay them up front, but they're a lot (I've heard $30K as a finder's fee). If you end up working as a subcontractor through the job agent (which is common), they'll just collect a percentage of your paycheck, ad infinitum.
I don't understand how these recruiting agencies maintain their prominence in the market-- they're not doing anything that a web page couldn't do. You'd think they would go extinct, like travel agents.
Re:Now we need a law for resume hucksters (Score:5, Insightful)
an "RTR" which to them is the "right to represent."
These people are scammers. As a job seeker, you should never agree to be represented by a recruiter or pay any fee to a recruiter. Legitimate recruiters work for, and are paid by, the hiring company.
not getting any hits is a bit disconcerting.
Perhaps you should send your resume to companies you want to work for, rather than passively waiting for them to beat a path to your door.
Re: Now we need a law for resume hucksters (Score:2)
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an "RTR" which to them is the "right to represent."
These people are scammers. As a job seeker, you should never agree to be represented by a recruiter or pay any fee to a recruiter. Legitimate recruiters work for, and are paid by, the hiring company.
I 110% agree on never paying a recruiter. Honestly, the it's never come up for me but I don't deal with offshore recruiters and have lived in the UK and Australia (who'll tell any paid for recruiter to go take a flying leap with far less kind language). However a right to represent is a different thing and quite common for recruiters, it is there expressly so you aren't represented by multiple companies (if you do this, both will drop you in the UK, they do talk to each other, don't act surprised that it's
Re:Now we need a law for resume hucksters (Score:5, Interesting)
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They don't only hire the "top 20" graduates. A coworker's son was hired by google 2 years ago, straight out of college. He went to a good school, but not one that would ever make a school ranking list or that anyone but a local is likely to have heard of.
He had decent grades, but wasn't exactly a dean's list type (didn't graduate with honors of any sort). While he was in school he was apprenticed with our company which I assume helped him land the interview, but as a CIS gendered white male with average g
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I'd like to know if anyone here has had a similar experience and if so how they handled it.
I entered the job market some months ago and posted my resume to a number of different boards. Monster.com, indeed.com, linkedin.con and sites like that.
Then I started getting dozens of calls a day. Sounds good, right? Wrong.
All the calls are from these "recruiting" companies that download your resume and try to match you with a prospective job lead. These companies don't seem to have any relationship to the original job posting web site. Most of them are heavily accented south Asian (Indian) who have a long-latency voice connection. They all follow an exact script.
That in itself doesn't sound bad, but they insist on you confirming (by e-mail usually but sometimes online document signing) an "RTR" which to them is the "right to represent." That means for a company to hire you they will have an obligation to pay that recruiter. How much I don't know, but it seems that the employer now has a big disincentive to hire you because of whatever fee they are claiming.
There is rarely any follow-up. If the match fits then they get paid. If not they just move on to the next one. They're playing the numbers getting those gold nuggets out of buckets of sand. So far, speaking as a clump of the sand, I think I have given out 30-50 RTRs and most of them have been for companies I have never heard of but seem to have a requirement that fits my skill set pretty well. But so for, not one single interview.
So far I haven't minded because a) I am not in that urgent a situation, and b) the companies offered haven't been all that exciting so not getting hired there isn't a problem for me. But not getting any hits is a bit disconcerting. Has anyone had success in this puppy mill?
I don't think we need a law for this and it'd be largely useless.
This issue was largely of your own making. You don't put your full resume on open job boards where anyone can download it. You never put your phone number on it. Always an email address and these days I'd go as far as creating a new one just for this purpose so I don't dare attract spammers to my main email. That way you can get the emails before the phone calls waste your time and energy, then use that to filter out the tyre kickers and ti
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You're probably getting most of those from Monster. Dice is the same way. Take your resume off there.
Angel List is good, and hacker news is good https://news.ycombinator.com/i... [ycombinator.com] Linked-in is a place to look up a recruiter at a company where you want to work.
Every time I look for a job, I need to find the new set of "hot" websites for finding jobs. It keeps changing. Annoying, but whatever.
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So I'm in Canada. I do not talk to any recruiter who is not based in Canada. After awhile you learn the legitimate recruiters. If you get a call from one and the job is for contracting, normally the actual place you are going to has a short list of recruiters they deal with; think of them as general contractors. You have to be incorporated and they will deal with you as a "trades person." I work on software projects, btw. The company that is the client does not want duplicate resumes for potential consultan
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Sorry, if you are in a general contractor / trades person relationship contract (even software), then it is normal for the recruiter as general contractor to take a percentage of the money the client is charged. If you have them by the short and curlies and they really need you, get the price the client is actually paying and see if you can squeeze for more. :)
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It's a suckers game, and these contract houses are just the worse. You usually sign exclusive representation and there are, if contracting, steep conversion fees if you are consequently hired directly.
Avoid.
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Serious Questions (Score:1)
The law will also require California-based companies with more than 100 employees to show their median gender and racial pay gaps -- a first for a US state.
What's a Gender Pay Gap? How is it calculated? What is it supposed to tell an applicant?
Are we now pretending that man & women are for purposes of employment equal and interchangeable? If I look at an employer,say, the San Francisco 49'ers, they employ over 100 people, probably a couple hundred when it's all said and done, but there are about 60 people, predominantly men (the players) that are the highest earners. What would a published gender pay "gap" info look like for them? What would that tell the
Re:Serious Questions (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Serious Questions (Score:3)
More importantly, a state with the eagerness to pass such laws would be equally motivated to prosecute spay discrimination? Why aren't we seeing prosecutions if there's actual discrimination on the basis of sex or race?
The research is about as solid as it gets. Men and women on aggregate are significantly different in both ability and inclination. Neither is better than the other overall - they're only different. It happens that males are more likely to be drawn to jobs that generate more money, hence the p
Re: Serious Questions (Score:3, Insightful)
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If you have to take the type of job into account to get rid of the pay gap, then that means you're disproportionately hiring men to higher-paying positions.
For anyone who cares about sexism, that's going to raise a lot of questions.
Very often it means you (possibly subconsciously) view men as inherently superior candidates than women having objectively similar qualifications. As many a study has demonstrated by sending out otherwise identical resumes with male or female names, and getting far more response
Re: Serious Questions (Score:1)
That's pretty insightful!
And i can't think of any rational argument against it.
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OTOH, I'm just an individual. And I always like to make the point that fellow male colleagues also don't make the same as I do, either less or more, and in the latter case that's wholly undeserved but just part of reality...
Re:Serious Questions (Score:4, Insightful)
why would you hire a man when you could pay a women women less?
Why? Because sexism.
That's certainly a possibility. It seems unlikely to me that every company would have the same sexism. There are a number of factors people who believe there's widespread sexism don't have a good answer for. First, it's been illegal since when, the '60s? You'd think there would be lawsuits left right and center if sexism in pay was so widespread. Second, human resources departments (who have access to and review pay data) are mostly staffed by women. You'd think at least some of these departments would crunch the numbers and blow a whistle. Third, there are a number of companies with female CEOs. You'd think those CEOs at least would not engage in blatant sexism.
When logic gets in the way of their arguments, they turn to calling you irrational.
I'm not entirely sure who you think is being called irrational here, the people who think there's sexism in pay or the people who say there is not.
Here's the thing. There are any number of studies which show a gender pay gap, There are any number of other studies showing the aggregate pay gap can mostly be explained by factors other than sexism (different job choices, years of work experience, hours worked, and so forth). What seems irrational to me is not addressing the data supporting alternative hypotheses why there's an aggregate gender pay disparity.
The scientific method is to make a hypothesis, make some predictions based on that hypothesis, then look for evidence to contradict those predictions. As I wrote above, if we hypothesize that aggregate pay disparities is caused by sexism, I predict you'd see the size of a gender pay gap correlate with the proportion of women in management (on the assumption that women are less sexist than men, which needs to be validated). Does that sound like a reasonable prediction? And if we found a weak correlation, would that be good evidence sexism isn't the dominant factor?
That's the sort of study I'd like to see done. My understanding is it already has been done and found little correlation. Ditto with correlations to number of continuous years worked, job classification, job risk, hours of overtime worked, and a number of other factors. The remaining gap was on the order of 2-5% and a gap that large I'm willing to believe might be sexism.
What frustrates me is there seems to be no end to the "sexism causes pay gaps" camp. There seems to be no level of evidence which will convince them there might be other problems. And I'm apprehensive we'll keep focusing on the wrong problem. If the root cause of an aggregate pay gap is men and women choose different jobs, the solution isn't more reporting and lawsuits. The solution will involve figuring out why women (for example) work in HR instead of programming. Women like more human-oriented jobs? Coding bros discouraging women from entering CompSci in college? Men are better programmers (no, I don't believe that)? Women are taught they can't program? Any of these could explain it. Depending what we find, we may actually have a problem which needs solving or maybe we don't.
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Frankly, I'd guess that we would actually get to see real racial and sexual discriminatory hiring practices because of this, not despite this.
It's no secret that the IT field is mostly white and male. Not because we're racist and sexist but simply because finding a black woman programmer is like finding a pink unicorn. These people are rare. I really wish they weren't because it would make hiring so much easier if an equal amount of people of all gender and race groups would apply.
So what do you do to appea
Re:Serious Questions (Score:5, Interesting)
It's calculated by adding up the total yearly salary of every woman, the total yearly salary of every man, and then if the the numbers aren't even screaming sexism.
Seniority, hours worked, qualifications, quantity of overtime, job performance, experience, hell even position itself don't matter. Previous so-called "studies" claiming to have found sexist pay discrimination against women were comparing part time librarians to partnered senior counsel at law firms and claiming it was an apples to apples comparison of "other white collar" work.
If you really want to see some shit demand companies post their median workplace death and injury gaps.
Well, good for the classified ad markets... (Score:2)
I find we often are looking for a very specific type of candidate, but end up finding different candidates that we might be able to shift around responsibilities to make hiring them work. This would make that much harder for us; we would need to post several ads continuously to comply with the law, and see what comes in at any point in time.
Our only gender or racial pay gaps are a function of language skills (ie English). Do we need to create 3 sub-levels for each position to ensure we have no gaps? (Eng
Salary range (Score:2)
I remember interviewing someone for an IT position many years ago .. and when he was asked what his salary expectation was he said "anywhere from $50k to $120k" .. so, the offer was 50k (actually I don't think he got an offer, but that would have been the amount if he did). It's like the people who go on Pawn Stars and when asked how much they want for the item, they say something like "$300 to $600". Have you EVER seen them get offered anything more than the $300 when they say something like that?
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And BTW, I did advise him of his mistake so that he won't do that in the future ..I literally told him "bro, when you give a range, the lowball is ALWAYS the amount a company would offer. Also, when you give such a wide range .. it shows you don't know your market value which comes off as a lack of confidence in yourself". Blame human nature.
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That's not actually true in a well run company. I've always argued for an appropriate salary when someone under estimates their worth.
First, if I really want the person (which is normally the case -- I'm picky and wouldn't be making an offer otherwise), I don't want our offer to be non-competitive. I want the offer to be compelling and very close to my "best offer" (if I need to sweeten the deal a bit, I'll try to do something like increase the bonus pla
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"As a hiring manager, in a professional field I think it's incredibly shortsighted to offer someone less "because you can get away with it and they will take the offer"."
I would argue that this should apply to *all* fields, and not just white-collar professionals.
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And BTW, I did advise him of his mistake so that he won't do that in the future ..I literally told him "bro, when you give a range, the lowball is ALWAYS the amount a company would offer.
No doubt. In what other sale does the buyer ask the seller for a price range? "How much is this car?" "Anywhere between $20k and $30k." "Allrighty, $20k it is."
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I remember interviewing someone for an IT position many years ago .. and when he was asked what his salary expectation was he said "anywhere from $50k to $120k"
I have definitely seen this with people who ended up getting 3 or 4 offers, and they said that because they were confident in getting multiple offers and wanted to screen for the companies who would make a good offer, and exclude the companies who wanted to pay the least they could get away with.
Good companies don't want to underpay, it leads to poor loyalty and retention.
How realistic does the range have to be? (Score:2)
If every job posted had the salary range of $20k/year to $1M/year, before salary negotiations
Standardize the ranges? (Score:2)
Do it (Score:2)
Same thought (Score:5, Funny)
How realistic does the range have to be?
Frankly I would just list every job as " 0 - $MAXINT", then only hire people who asked you what architecture you were referencing.
Re: (Score:2)
Looks like PHP/Bash, no thanks!
Re: (Score:2)
If every job posted had the salary range of $20k/year to $1M/year, before salary negotiations
You'd hope they would have covered this but this is Sacramento, who passed AB5, we're talking about so thinking about corner cases doesn't seem their forte.
One reasonable answer might be to require posting what the company is currently paying for a given job classification. IOW, they'd have to report that the lowest they pay a sales droid 1 is $30k and the highest is $50k with a median of $40k. Oh, and break that out by sex, preferred pronouns, skin color, hair color, eye color, height, weight, birth countr
Probably not as useful as it sounds (Score:2)
The equity measurements are also not as useful as they sound without some system to compare similar levels of work experience. For companies with a h
Listings for regulators come with a "wink"? (Score:2)
I live in Crookhaven New York, where inspectors for the Town subsisted on gratuities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
"This one-party domination, and a series of scandals, led to a tarnished reputation of local politics and accorded the nickname "Crookhaven"."
Useless Law (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Only works if the range is enforced. (Score:2)
Publishing is one thing, but if they can offer above or below the posted range during negotiations then the law has no teeth. And how wide can the range be?
It doesn't work as well as people think it will... (Score:2)
Publishing is one thing, but if they can offer above or below the posted range during negotiations then the law has no teeth. And how wide can the range be?
As I hiring manager that's dealt with this -- Colorado already has a similar law -- it's not as useful as people think it is. Hiring Managers create a job posting for a particular level. At that level, you show the pay band. It should be real data for employees at the level. This part is somewhat useful information. Albeit, stock grants != salary range. However, the big gap in utility with this law is that when you interview candidates, you might decide they aren't a match for the level you created the jo
My company introduced a pay scale some time ago (Score:2)
Unilaterally. It's worse than what the unions get. Officially it's to make the salary process more transparent but in reality it's made to keep wages down by preventing middle managers to negotiate salary on their own. Several smart people left the company because they could get better money in places wher this wasn't yet the norm.
who doesn't post salary ranges? (Score:2)
I'm a small business owner, and we've hired 2 new office staff in the last 6 months.
I think not posting a salary indication in a job ad would be stupid. Obviously it's open to negotiation, but giving a number prevented both your and the candidates wasting time interviewing people not interested in the job at the pay expected.
Re: (Score:2)
I work and have worked in the public sector for (Score:2)
over a decade. Anyone, anywhere can look up my salary if they know my name. It should be like that for every one, everywhere, and include benefits packages (I basically have none because the benefits are a joke and not worth paying for - I'm on my wife's insurance instead).
That will end some shit really REALLY quick. But that doesn't favor corporations or "Capital" at all, and they have the lobbyists and the laws, so good luck.
Oh, and the job postings don't matter. Who you know far outweighs literally a
Yes, please! (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Anytime I have applied for a job, the application includes a question regarding salary expectation.
As an employer, if the employee answers $100K for a job in which we have $50K budgeted, we can look elsewhere. I don't wish to insult anyone. If, however, the applicant answers "$60K", I will look over the resume and offer an interview meeting expressing that they're asking above our budget however we would like to meet. If they are interested in meeting, the interview will let us know if we ought to aim for t
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There's a few (remarkably few I'm sorry to say) things that my father said when I was growing up that have stuck with me because they're true. The one relevant to this topic is "Don't go in (to an interview) with your hat in your hand". What he meant by that is don't show up staring at the ground, acting like you're worthless (or worth little), be your best self, show that you know your place in the Universe, and that you think you're worth something. The whole 'salary expectation' thing you speak of is bullshit so far as I'm concerned because, as you say, they want to pay as little as possible. That's abusive, as we've come to understand. Someone dares to ask for what they're really worth, when you can get some down-on-himself, low self-esteem guy who still has the qualifications, but only expects a fraction of what the other guy wants? Screw that! Tell me what you're willing to pay, and I'll tell you if I'm even interested. That's the way it should be: don't waste my time and I won't waste yours.
Was this aimed at me? After all, I think you are I are aligned in approach even if you're rather vile in your delivery.
The whole 'salary expectation' thing you speak of is bullshit so far as I'm concerned
I disagree. Like I said, I don't need to insult anyone. I'm also not looking for the low self-esteem people (you said "guy" - we hire girls too).
Inflation (Score:1)
I have some other good ideas... (Score:2)
On the one hand, I think this is silly since we know there are a zillion factors other than racism and sexism which lead to aggregate pay disparities. I really wonder if enough data will finally put this myth to rest.
On the other hand perhaps this will produce the data I want. I'd like to see the sex/racial disparities broken out by job classification (e.g. what's the pay disparity among principal software engineers?)
And then let's extend this. If reporting by sex and race is good, how about some other cate
But real life intervenes⦠(Score:2)
I wish it went further. (Score:2)
At the upper end of jobs, a lot of your total comp can come from bonuses and stock grants. At my last job, my yearly salary was only around half of my total take-home.
So this law is a good start, but still leaves a lot of fudge-factor room.
Budget (Score:2)
It would be more useful if they were required to post the amount actually budgeted for the position.
It doesn't matter if the pay range is up to $100K if they're only budgeting $50k, which is what they intend to hire for.
gender gap (Score:3)
How do you determine a gender gap when there are dozens if not hundreds of genders?
Coming soon to your job ads in CA (Score:1)
Good for men (Score:2)
They'll just work around it. (Score:1)
You can't force people to give you more pay if you don't have the experience, work ethic, attitude and personality they want to accomplish their goals. It really feels like people are trying to pull this off but under the guise of heroes against discrimination.
You can't bully them into giving low skill self entitled poor aptitude people money. You guys can keep trying but it will never happen, because if the company was filled with people like that, it would fail and go bankrupt, so no matter what, those pe
Re:now all jobs (Score:4, Insightful)
Ah, so please show us the employee currently employed at your company that is earning $1 per year in this position, and also the one that is earning $10000000000 in this position. Oh you can't? You might in be in violation...