Low Demand For Travis Scott Creates Liquidity Crisis In Ticket Reselling Economy (404media.co) 177
samleecole writes: Tickets for rapper Travis Scott's upcoming tour sold out fast. Check StubHub right now, however, and you can find thousands of tickets to "sold out" shows in many cities for between $10 and $20, far below the face value for his cheapest tickets at $61.50 before fees when they first went on sale. In ticket reseller lingo, Scott's tour is a "bloodbath," the result of overzealous brokers and noobs "overbuying" tickets based on a miscalculation of the likely value of his tickets on the secondary market. Many brokers now stand to lose a lot of money on Scott's shows. At least part of this buying frenzy was fueled by a bet placed by PFS Buyers Club, a credit card maxing site I wrote about earlier this week that has recently pivoted from buying rare coins to buying concert tickets. PFS told its members to buy as many tickets to Scott's shows as possible, according to emails viewed by 404 Media.
PFS itself stands to lose more than $1 million on Travis Scott alone when all is said and done, it told members. The entire situation, which has become a complicated mess, sheds light on a little-known segment of the ticket broker industry, where resellers partner with credit card "buyers clubs" to obtain tickets. The fiasco also highlights the risks associated with ticket reselling and shows how Ticketmaster profits from the secondary market, helping it sell out artists even before their ability to sell out venues is guaranteed, and passing that risk on to resellers.
PFS itself stands to lose more than $1 million on Travis Scott alone when all is said and done, it told members. The entire situation, which has become a complicated mess, sheds light on a little-known segment of the ticket broker industry, where resellers partner with credit card "buyers clubs" to obtain tickets. The fiasco also highlights the risks associated with ticket reselling and shows how Ticketmaster profits from the secondary market, helping it sell out artists even before their ability to sell out venues is guaranteed, and passing that risk on to resellers.
Poor little Diddums (Score:4, Insightful)
So Travis Scott gets the money but the speculators get burned. So sad.
Re:Poor little Diddums (Score:4, Interesting)
Unfortunately, Ticketmaster probably still made the most money of anybody involved.
Re: (Score:2)
Except when they're also the scalper, and the scalper-broker. Guess they'll just have to raise the prices on the beer by 40000% to make up the difference and increase their cut of merch sales.
Re:Poor little Diddums (Score:4, Informative)
the thing is, ticketmaster in the end has to be providing some value to earn that money, so there is something they must be doing right
"There is something they must be doing right", or y'know, they have a fucking monopoly, genius.
Re:Poor little Diddums (Score:5, Informative)
A company being a monopoly doesn't necessarily mean that it's the only provider of a product or service. While that is the case in a pure monopoly, a company may be considered a monopoly if it exerts such control over a market that may unreasonably constrain competition. In simpler terms, if you're basically forced to do business with a company, that company has a monopoly. This is allowed in certain instances, such as when a product is under patent and no competing product exists, but is technically illegal in most other situations.
If an artist books a competing venue in a city where TicketMaster has venue or an agreement with venue, they can and have retaliated by limiting the artist's access to TM venues, which can mean much smaller ticket sales and often a complete inability to book a city or region. They've also less directly affected their revenue shares by requiring exclusive agreements to get favorable terms. But that would reduce TM's revenues, so they added fees that are exclusive to TM, paid by the ticket-buyer, that have in many cases been more than the face value of the ticket. They also significantly increased costs within the venues, including to merch vendors, causing those prices to rise. Artists who have spoken out against it have alleged retaliation, and that goes back a long way.
In 1993, when Pearl Jam wanted to cap ticket prices at $18 to allow more fans to see them, TicketMaster kept the fees high. It generated a lot of press at the time, and Pearl Jam tried to work around it by booking venues as benefit or charitable events, which under TM contracts allowed the venues to sell their own tickets. TicketMaster retaliated by going behind closed doors with many of the venues and threatening them to withdraw from the contracts, leaving the venues without bookings. So many refused to book the band that the tour was canceled. A bunch of other acts have had similar complaints for decades, but they continue to work with TicketMaster because they have to if they want to play concerts. Being forced to do business with TicketMaster makes TicketMaster a monopoly.
Re:Poor little Diddums (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Poor little Diddums (Score:5, Funny)
The bow is on the wrong side of the bridge... just sayin'.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
That the words "Rap" and "Music" are mutually exclusive terms.
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe more people are realizing like I did LONG ago...
That the words "Rap" and "Music" are mutually exclusive terms.
Congratulations. You and Keith Richards [yahoo.com] agree.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, I'm failing to see the downside. Artist makes money, fans will be able to pick up tickets at a fraction of the face value, a bunch of professional scalpers lose their shirts. Seems like a damned good day.
Re: (Score:2)
Not quite.
Travis Scott gets the money, the scalpers get burned. And I have no problem with that, because they're fucking leeches, and we all know the most effective way to remove a leech is to burn it off.
Fuck them. If you don't want to be stuck with a worthless commodity, don't speculate on it's value whilst fucking people over that just want to go to a live event.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, meme images of mostly empty "sold out" performances are in our future.
Re: Poor little Diddums (Score:3)
They should do tickets from the start as a Dutch auction -- the price starts high and descends as the tickets sell. Buy when you're ok with the price. Don't wait too long or you'll miss out.
Resellers? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: Resellers? (Score:2)
I feel like the correct term should be parasite, but you are probably right.
Re: Resellers? (Score:5, Funny)
In this case it sounds like these generous people are subsidizing tickets for others that might not have been able to afford them at full price!
Re: (Score:2)
I feel like the correct term should be parasite, but you are probably right.
A parasite simply takes from its host and gives nothing back in return. These folks at least give the people tickets to the show after being paid. Although one could argue definition number two comes close [merriam-webster.com].
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The secondary market has no good reason to exist. It just enriches leaches.
I think it would be more accurate to say the bad outweighs the good. There are a handful of good reasons I can come up with, fundraising or other uses for example, but none of them compare to the misuse that goes on. Further, there would arguably be other ways to go about it that don't have the same downsides.
Re: (Score:3)
You realize that the artists and agencies can easily stop scalpers by simply asking for your ID during purchase, then checking your ID when you go to the venue right? This is very easy to do. The airlines do it all the time. So why don't they do it?
My guess is they are profiting from this somehow. Perhaps by having their own "resellers" who can get tickets in advance of even scalpers, then "resell" them at market price on the secondary market.
Re:Resellers? (Score:5, Informative)
My guess is they are profiting from this somehow. Perhaps by having their own "resellers" who can get tickets in advance of even scalpers, then "resell" them at market price on the secondary market.
Well, yeah. Ticketmaster will sell you a ticket and collect their massive fee from that sale. Then they'll let your resell your ticket through Ticketmaster and they'll collect another fee. There's no way they want this to stop.
Re: (Score:3)
Yeah, John Oliver did an excellent segment on all of this; Tickets: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO) [youtube.com]
"Ticketmaster is one of the most hated companies on earth, which is really impressive because remember this is a planet in which AT&T also exists."
Re: (Score:2)
2 problems with that:
1. People frequently buy tickets for friends/family/coworkers/etc. They might not always know their full legal name ("hey Duke, I got two tickets for a concert this weekend, want to go?")
2. Verifying ID is a slow and annoying process as anyone who's been to an airport can confirm. Tapping your phone on a scanner is nice and quick.
Re: (Score:2)
1. Just check that the purchaser has the correct ID, no need to check everyone in a group. If the scalper wants to go to the concert themselves just to scalp 3 tickets, that's not a big problem.
2. JFK airport handles about 160,000 passengers per day. Average security line wait time is 17 minutes. Show me a bigger concert with a shorter entry time.
Re: (Score:2)
What about people giving tickets as a gift?
Re: (Score:2)
You don't know the name of the person you're gifting it to?
Re: (Score:2)
Gotta know their full legal name! No nicknames or anything. Then there are cases where someone might want to give away a ticket if they can't make an event or sell it to a friend.
Re: (Score:2)
Gotta know their full legal name! No nicknames or anything.
"Hey Bob, what's your full legal name? I need it to buy you a gift."
Is that too hard? If so, please reconsider your definition of "friend".
Then there are cases where someone might want to give away a ticket if they can't make an event
If you don't know for sure that you'll go, then don't buy it! Let someone who really wants to go have it.
or sell it to a friend.
Then you're scalping.
Re: (Score:2)
If you don't know for sure that you'll go, then don't buy it! Let someone who really wants to go have it.
It's not uncommon for people to have plans change when they have to buy a ticket for an event months in the future. Under the mandatory ID plan, that ticket is wasted and no one can enjoy the concert.
Then you're scalping.
Only if you're an ass about it. I buy tickets for shows for friends sometimes and they pay me back. I don't charge them more than the ticket price as a scalper would do.
Re: (Score:2)
No reason you can't offer refunds on ticket purchases if people have to cancel. Then the ticket goes back into the general pool for someone else to buy at the regular price.
Worst case is you lose the cost if you have to cancel last minute, but if you attend a few concerts at the regular price and then have to lose one you're probably still coming out ahead compared to paying scalper prices.
Only if you're an ass about it. I buy tickets for shows for friends sometimes and they pay me back. I don't charge them more than the ticket price as a scalper would do.
Why do you need to do that? Are your friends somehow unable to buy tickets for themselves? Clearly they can afford them
Re: (Score:2)
No reason you can't offer refunds on ticket purchases if people have to cancel.
That would definitely need to been in law that the tickets would have to be able to be refunded. Could open up the possibility of abuse of course if people bought a bunch of tickets and then refunded them right before the show.
Sometimes it's just easier to buy a few tickets together so you know they're available or if the show has assigned seating so you can get seats together.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I'm proposing a general solution, not coding up their purchasing page.
But if you really insist, add a checkbox in the purchasing page called "Buy for a friend", and if the user checks it, a textbox pops up asking for their friend's legal name as it appears on their ID.
Re: (Score:2)
1. Just check that the purchaser has the correct ID, no need to check everyone in a group. If the scalper wants to go to the concert themselves just to scalp 3 tickets, that's not a big problem.
2. JFK airport handles about 160,000 passengers per day. Average security line wait time is 17 minutes. Show me a bigger concert with a shorter entry time.
1. Great so if 8 of us throw in on some tickets and the person who bought them is gets sick we're fucked.
2. Assuming it's open for 16 hours a day, that's only about 16k per hour. That means multiple hours to process people into a big venue which might not have enough waiting room for that kind of queue. You are asking to create a crowd crush.
Re: (Score:2)
If you're buying tickets and don't know any of the other 7 people's names and can't enter them during the purchase, then are you really friends or are you just a scalper?
Re: (Score:2)
That's 160k passengers spread over the whole day.
A concert typically happens at a specific time, so all of the customers are going to be arriving at around the same time, although many concert venues also have airport style security screenings anyway.
Re: (Score:2)
You only need to verify the name and payment card of whoever bought the ticket, if he bought 4 tickets and takes some friends and they all arrive at the venue together that's not going to get widely abused.
Re: (Score:2)
What if the guy who bought them came down with the flu and can't make it? What if someone shows up late?
Re: (Score:2)
My guess is they are profiting from this somehow.
No need to guess. The fact that Ticketmaster owns the primary and secondary market should tell you all you need to know. The artists probably don't care, they just want asses in seats, and the face-value of the ticket.
Re: (Score:3)
Most venues are locked up by Ticketmaster. If you want a venue better than a school auditorium, you sell through ticketmaster and they set the rules, not the band.
Re: (Score:2)
Of course they're profiting from it.
First, General Admission tick
Sounds right (Score:2)
Aren't these the same folks that buyout tickets to create artificial scarcity and drive up prices? Seems like the market is working according to spec.? If I'm correct, I hope they get wiped out.
Re: (Score:2)
Yup.
I am betting you could collect their tears and sell them for more than they swindled out of people just trying to go see a concert.
Long gone (Score:2)
Long gone are the days when you could walk into your local head shop and pick a few tickets for the upcoming AC/DC, Sammy Hagar, Scorpions, etc.. concert in a few days. And my teen age self thought $12.50 was a whopping price to pay. I can't even imagine paying the prices ticketbastards charges today.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, one night out at a show with your SO, sans drinks and parking, will cost you $300 pretty easily these days. I am glad that my wife and I are in a stage of life where there aren't that many shows we want to go see anymore.
Re: (Score:2)
When I saw beer for $16 at a nostalgia show I knew it was another nail in the live show coffin. Of course people seem to keep paying ticketbastard's insane fees so I'm probably wrong.
Re: (Score:2)
and does anyone actually play a musical instrument anymore that sings?
Yes. [youtu.be] Also someone else you may have heard of is known to get out a guitar or piano during her live shows: Taylor Swift.
Hell, my partner and I recently saw The Offspring in Tampa and even they actually all play instruments and they're a 90s pop-punk band.
Re: (Score:2)
I remember my grandmother complaining how my "music" was just noise (rock n roll). But today's music is different. It truly is horrible. Over volumed, auto tuned, bass beating, bull crap. It really is horrible. I've become close to my grandmother's age at the time now, but saying music is noise today is different from when my grandmother did it. "Music" has lost something.
Re: (Score:2)
Heck, I remember my buddy and I picking up our tickets for Peter Gabriel around 1993 at our local department store! I think he picked up the Pink Floyd tickets in 1994 at the same place. My girlfriend at the time bought tickets for us to see Kiss over the phone with her step dad's credit card.
Re: (Score:2)
Even better way back then, if you were a teen you could camp for tickets and sell extras to people who didn't have time. Not at crazy scalper prices, but for enough to pay for your own ticket plus a tee shirt or something.
Now it's a minor miracle to even get tickets retail since the scalpers grab them in seconds.
once (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: once (Score:2)
Self inserted middle man, boohoo. (Score:2)
I though Travis Scott (Score:2)
Got nuthing.
Re: (Score:2)
Over rated team if you ask me. They lost to the Bucs in the Superbowl, and those guys are buckets of suck.
Re: (Score:2)
Kelce. TE for the Kansas City Chiefs.
Over rated team if you ask me. They lost to the Bucs in the Superbowl, and those guys are buckets of suck.
The Bucs made it to the Super Bowl, _and_ they are a bucket of suck? How bad are the teams that _didn't_ make it?? LOL
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The stories of the Lions are sad.
The team that almost always almost wins. This year they've been playing good!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Thanks for subsidizing artists (Score:2)
We are so grateful to these fools deciding to part with their money to subsidize music.
Speculators add no value to an economy. (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
That's the risk of speculation. Sometimes you end up with a store room full of self-sealing stem bolts.
I don't wish death on them... (Score:3)
...but I hope that every last one of those resellers stubs their toe on their bedpost so hard on Christmas Eve that they have to go the emergency room. And include the people working at Ticketmaster, too. Not everyone... but a lot of them.
Re: (Score:3)
You want to foist these people on hard-working health professionals..... on Christmas Eve, no less?!
Re: (Score:2)
I did not consider that. Let me rethink my retribution.
Fascinating (Score:2)
His real name is Jacques Bermon Webster II, but he chose Travis Scott is his stage name? There's the real mystery.
Re:Fascinating (Score:4, Funny)
I'm pretty sure I'd never heard of him until now.
I'll just "okay boomer" myself out now...
Re: (Score:2)
From the answers-we-don't-care-about department, from the usual source:
"...with a heavily appraised influence from rappers Kanye West and Kid Cudi. His stage name is derived from the latter (whose real name is Scott Mescudi) combined with the name of a favorite uncle."
What "heavily appraised influence" means is left as an exercise for the reader.
Re: (Score:2)
What "heavily appraised influence" means is left as an exercise for the reader.
It means if you're (figuratively speaking) totally oblivious to Kanye being an overrated no talent hack who only became famous because of his association with the Kardashians, then you'll probably love Travis Scott too.
Astroworld (Score:2)
Maybe this has something to do with it?
2021 - "At least eight people were killed and many others injured after a crowd surged forward while rapper Travis Scott was on stage at the Astroworld Festival in Houston on Friday night. The incident occurred when the crowd surged toward the stage, crushing those at the front who were unable to escape..."
...and this...
“On May 13, 2017, Jaques Webster, aka Travis Scott, was arrested by the Rogers Police Department after his performance at the Walmart Arkansas Mu
Re: (Score:2)
Probably not. The 2021 case was shown to be an issue with the venue design and timing. These kinds of deaths are typically the fault of organizers
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Probably not. The 2021 case was shown to be an issue with the venue design and timing. These kinds of deaths are typically the fault of organizers
Then again [wikipedia.org] arrested in 2015 for encouraging fans to rush the stage, caused a different incident that same year, in 2017 arrested again for encouraging fans to rush, in 2019 fans were injured during a surge (don't know if he incited, but he must have known the risk), then the 2021 incident where he kept playing despite dead bodies in the crowd (he may not have known the severity, but he would have seen the ambulance).
Dude seems pretty reckless with his audiences, I'm not sure I'd want to be anywhere near th
Let me say it first then (Score:2)
Who the fuck is Travis Scott?
Re: (Score:2)
The first sentence of the summary was too much to read? He's a rapper that's moderately (but apparently not super) popular
Re: (Score:2)
Dunno, but the fact that he caused scalpers to lose money and hopefully even more makes him a very nice person.
Speculators lose - so what? (Score:3)
...Scott's tour is a "bloodbath," the result of overzealous brokers and noobs "overbuying" tickets based on a miscalculation of the likely value of his tickets on the secondary market. Many brokers now stand to lose a lot of money...
I'm happy that these people have lost their shirts. The way they were trying to acquire money - note that I didn't use the term 'earn' or 'make' - is parasitic. In this kind of scheme people are basically stealing - they siphon off value using what I call 'economic friction'. It's the equivalent of partially applying the brakes on someone else's car and using the gasoline which someone else purchased to provide yourself with free-to-you heat. These people are wannabe middlemen who add nothing of value, and they can all rot AFAIC. People like this are a huge part of many of the problems our civilization faces.
Re: (Score:2)
Yup, they are just obstacles that skim off money and contribute nothing.
Poor resale market (Score:2)
Aww, the scalper...I mean reseller market is suffering? Must suck as bad as not being able to get tickets for face value anymore.
Good (Score:2)
It sounds like the market is functioning exactly like it should.
Does anyone really have any sympathy at all for these people?
Your German word of the day: (Score:2)
Schadenfreude - the experience of pleasure, joy, or self-satisfaction that comes from learning of or witnessing the troubles, failures, or humiliation of another.
This whole thing should be outlawed... (Score:2)
If you buy a ticket, you either go to the show or you eat the cost.
The "resellers" (scalpers) should simply be illegal. The venue is losing out on the scalping, the artist/band/whatever is losing out on the scalping, the only ones who benefit are these "resellers" who are doing nothing to earn off the tickets.
Re: This whole thing should be outlawed... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Come on, this was an investment firm driving this. They expected to buy low (that would be the money the venue/artist/etc would get) and sell high, pocketing the difference as pure profit.
And they're doing nothing for it except running bots to scoop up all of the tickets at the retail prices until there are none left, then they jack up the prices to the max people would pay for.
So yeah, I'm glad these clowns have been taken to the cleaners, and I wish we could do some other effective boycotts to stop this k
Re: (Score:2)
The "resellers" (scalpers) should simply be illegal.
I don't see why... Sure it's scummy, but at the end of the day they are just doing arbitrage. A ticket is worth whatever you can get some sucker to pay for it, so the existence of scalpers is really just because the people putting on the show are leaving money on the table. To make ticket prices sane, that only real way to make that happen is to do more shows in the same location, or to build bigger venues. But bigger venues just means instead of nosebleed seats, you'll get something much worse.
Re: (Score:2)
the existence of scalpers is really just because the people putting on the show are leaving money on the table
Shocker! Not everyone in the world is driven by maximizing profit as their life goal.
Will you suffer a heart attack if you hear about volunteer work?
So scalpers get shafted? (Score:3)
It's a start.
Wake me when these bastards start selling their kidneys. It can't happen soon enough.
Socialize the costs (Score:2)
Many brokers now stand to lose a lot of money ...
Think of all the other words that could be used here; business-people, entrepreneurs, capitalists, gamblers, scalpers.
I guess, "brokers" make them sound like employees suffering the same as the rest of us. No, they planned to profit from the greed of others and their own greed failed them. They do not deserve any sympathy or help. This is once again, a desire to socialize the costs of bad behaviour that benefit an already-well-paid minority.
Nice (Score:2)
Still, nice to hear of it happening at all. It's not like TicketsMaster has any desire to shut this crap down.
Scam on a Scam? (Score:2)
The poor summary doesn't make it clear that some of the people in this aren't involved in the scalping scam but in a different scam.
The "credit card maxing" was a clue. This is where people get credit cards with some sort of cash back and they are trying to take advantage of that. This is about them getting scammed.
according to emails viewed by 404 Media. (Score:2)
Everyone's in on it (Score:2)
If you're a multi-millionaire artist, you can afford to hire a computer nerd to implement one of the many lottery-based ticketing systems that many events around the world use to fairly sell tickets to limited events.
The design is simple: at an appointed time, log on to get a spot in a queue. Spots are selected at random. If you're selected, you have 20 minutes to make a purchase. Don't purchase, your spot goes to someone else. If you do purchase, you must show ID to get into the show, or all parties must b
Re: (Score:2)
The design is simple: at an appointed time,
You're simply replacing money-based discrimination with discrimination based on whether or not someone can make it at that specific time.
And you won't stop the scalpers at all. They'll simply log on with a couple thousand bot accounts.
The simple solution is to make it illegal to re-sell a ticket above the price you originally paid for it. There, problem solved. No more market for scalpers, but regular folks who can't make it can still sell off their tickets to someone else.
With scalpers out of the market, I
Re: (Score:2)
Rapper who caused a stampede and a child died. Without knowing this I would have guess a name like Travis Scott belonged to a country singer.
Re: (Score:2)
I've heard of him, but thanks to not having listened to terrestrial broadcast radio in ages, I have been spared having to listen to any of his "music". While I'm totally okay with just taking it as a sign that I'm getting old that I don't get his music, there are still other contemporary artists putting out new music that I do enjoy, so it's entirely possible he really does just suck.
Re: who? (Score:2)
Make up your mind, have you never heard his music, or have you heard it but you think itâ(TM)s terrible? You go back and forth like four times in one short paragraph. It makes me suspicious you just want to talk shit about a black k musician and logic isnâ(TM)t a part of the equation.
Re: (Score:2)
Just make shooting them legal and the problem will sort itself out pretty fucking quickly.