Europe Is Losing 224
Europe's share of global economic output has fallen from 33% to 23% since 2005 while its space launch capacity has nearly collapsed, launching just four rockets this year compared to over 100 for the United States and 40 for China. The continent's economic stagnation spans 15 years -- likely the longest streak since the Industrial Revolution according to Deutsche Bank calculations -- with Germany's economy growing just 1% since late 2017 versus 19% US growth.
Per capita GDP gaps have widened dramatically: $86,000 annually in the US versus $56,000 in Germany and $53,000 in the UK. Industrial electricity costs have become prohibitive, running three times higher in Germany and four times higher in the UK than American rates. "America innovates, China imitates, Europe regulates," Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni observed. The continent's largest company by market value, SAP, now ranks just 28th globally.
Further reading: The Technology Revolution is Leaving Europe Behind.
Per capita GDP gaps have widened dramatically: $86,000 annually in the US versus $56,000 in Germany and $53,000 in the UK. Industrial electricity costs have become prohibitive, running three times higher in Germany and four times higher in the UK than American rates. "America innovates, China imitates, Europe regulates," Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni observed. The continent's largest company by market value, SAP, now ranks just 28th globally.
Further reading: The Technology Revolution is Leaving Europe Behind.
Uh oh (Score:4, Funny)
Could their economic woes be related to the apparent size of the continent? Maybe if we issued new maps with a projection that visually exaggerates Europe's size even more than it already does with the Mercator projection, and shrinks USA's and China's, then surely Europe's economic output should grow too. I heard this was supposed to work with Africa, so maybe it's worth a shot.
Re:Uh oh (Score:5, Insightful)
Per capita GDP gaps have widened dramatically: $86,000 annually in the US versus $56,000 in Germany and $53,000 in the UK.
Since the US is full of ludicrously overvalued IT companies producing nothing of value while Europe tends to be more realistically-valued manufacturing companies producing actual goods of value, this figure is pretty meaningless. And the source of this gosh-so-much-winning-in-the-US story is MSN... now if they compare things like life expectancy, access to healthcare, access to education, etc it's a very different story.
Re:Uh oh (Score:4, Informative)
I know you're joking about that but some of that data is based on numerology:
Per capita GDP gaps have widened dramatically: $86,000 annually in the US versus $56,000 in Germany and $53,000 in the UK.
Since the US is full of ludicrously overvalued IT companies producing nothing of value while Europe tends to be more realistically-valued manufacturing companies producing actual goods of value, this figure is pretty meaningless. And the source of this gosh-so-much-winning-in-the-US story is MSN... now if they compare things like life expectancy, access to healthcare, access to education, etc it's a very different story.
GDP is not the same as stock market capitalization. It could be argued that US stock prices are overvalued because it's based directly on stock investor sentiments. However, GDP is based on accounting of specific dollar expenditures.
The question of whether dollar metrics are more important than quality of life metrics is entirely separate but very much pertinent. I agree that there are some quality of life aspects that I wish the US would learn from the Europeans, but there are also other quality of life aspects that I'm glad Americans do things differently than the Europeans.
Re: Uh oh (Score:3)
However, GDP is based on accounting of specific dollar expenditures.
It doesn't have to be market capitalisation.
When standard cost of living expenses go through the roof, so will the GDP, besides nothing more having had happened than people surviving.
Re:Uh oh (Score:5, Insightful)
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I recently read an observation that a lot of America's GDP was health related, ie, they spend a lot on healthcare.
An example that was on the local news here in BC. Vasectomies, government pays about C$125 for the procedure, there is a month wait. One Doctor went private (in Canada, it is a binary choice between private and public) and charged about C$250 for the procedure. He is retiring and turned his practice over to a young Doctor inspired by America. He is charging C$2000 for the 10 minute procedure. Th
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Yup, if you look at the stats the US pretty much needs its own chart just to keep the rest of the world to scale. And the next couple in line are various European countries where you get pretty extravagant treatment from what I've heard talking to friends who live there.
The US public healthcare system is absolutely dire. When I worked there I needed a yearly medical checkup for visa purposes, no problem, I'll go to the local community health centre for the ten-minute checkup, which is what you'd do here.
Well here in the US (Score:4, Insightful)
Well the US is in the process of following Europe down the same path
The US just banned all mRNA Vaccine Research and handed that huge growing Industry to China. We are now in the process of ending Renewable Energy Research and Deployment.
Never mind Trumps war on Education, when he is done people will only be able to read specific 2000+ year old stories in a book written centuries ago. We could end up as a Christian Taliban society.
But I guess in the long run it does not matter. There is a good chance Global Warming will end our civilization in maybe 100 years.
Re:Well here in the US (Score:5, Informative)
Some specific research had its funding pulled due to lack of results so far.
That is the excuse given by the Trump administration, but I didn't think anyone was silly enough to actually believe them. Guess I was wrong.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/m... [cbsnews.com]
Re:Well here in the US (Score:4, Insightful)
And that research if it has merit will go forward in the private sector.
If, and only if, there's potential to turn it into a product in the very near future. Very little basic research is done in the private sector these days; there is no Bell labs equivalent anymore.
I've always found it weird how often Europeans assume that if the government isn't involved it's not happening.
If we're doing simplistic stereotypes, then we could also find it weird how often Americans assume monetization will solve all problems.
Researchers don't just appear out of nowhere; they're not like the laborers you (used to) find in Home Depot parking lots. It takes a long time and a complex ecosystem to give smart people the extensive training and experience needed to contribute meaningfully in areas like this.
The private sector is never going to make those kinds of long-term investments in a significant way. If the government in the US isn't going to part of it, then that research synergy is going to go somewhere else. Probably to China.
Re: Well here in the US (Score:5, Insightful)
You're listing applied research.
Where do you think mRNA vaccines came from BEFORE covid?
There were 20 years of basic research at universities before BionTEch and Moderna were even founded. And then they received a lot of public money in funding.
You may have already forgotten that the EU placed its bets on astrazeneca, which was ineffective.
This is just fractally wrong. Biontech is based in the EU. Secondly the AstraZeneca vaccine was not ineffective, but the mRNA ones were better.
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"Global Warming won't end civilization..."
Because billionaires will first.
"...but the already poor real estate choices that have had issues for decades for many reasons will get weeded out."
Ans so will a lot of productive farm land. And countless species. And those millions of people that die? They were doomed anyway.
This is what a partisan apologist looks like.
Re: Well here in the US (Score:2)
And this is what a doomsayer looks like. Neither are worth listening to.
WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosystem. (Score:5, Insightful)
At this point a lot of economic growth is just generating garbage, but because we are so addicted to growth, we have to keep generating garbage.
A better question to ask would be, would you prefer to live in Europe or the U.S.? Not work, live. The idea that our lives should be work from graduation to grave doesn't really seem like something we ought to be valorizing—it sucks for the planet, and it sucks for us.
Re:WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosyst (Score:5, Insightful)
Europeans have fewer big toys, but are healthier and happier.
Re:WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosyst (Score:4, Funny)
oops, sorry. I misread what you said.
*ducks out*
Abused housewives are happier/healthier than PhDs (Score:4, Interesting)
Europeans have fewer big toys, but are healthier and happier.
Your logic is flawed. Abused housewives are happier and healthier than PhDs. They don't know any better and don't want for things they don't think are possible. I know many Europeans and work with them daily. It's a wash. Is the American lifestyle better?...I am not prepared to say that, but I also don't put theirs on a pedestal. They're just as miserable.
Yeah, the average Dutch person sees more smiles walking through the streets...then they go home to an ancient house without air conditioning and feels held back by their income and society. Americans have more stress, but more optimism and hope for the future...especially American Achievers. Their European counterparts feel very held back. If I were a failure in life, I'd rather be a European, preferably in the Nordic regions. However, I am not, so being an American suits me better...I know, I am in the top 10% as a software engineer, but people like me are much happier here than there.
If I were a kindergarten teacher, I'd probably be much happier in the Netherlands or Norway.
I don't think it's safe to say one way is better than the other. Some thrive in close-knit communities. There's a lot to be said for that, but they also hold you back and you tend to adopt the shittier aspects of those communities....like bigotry. I, and many like me, thrive more with a much smaller group of friends and more toys. I'd rather be around my small family and be able to pursue any passion that arises...I have a lot of weird hobbies, like many Americans, including and especially immigrants....my international Indian/Spanish/Dutch/Israeli/Polish coworkers don't.
They're honestly quite boring in contrast. The few interests they have they don't take very seriously....for example I know a bunch who play guitar. The Americans own more gear and play a lot better...take their hobby a lot farther and spend more time and energy into mastering it...their European counterparts?....eh, it's just kinda sad. They give up sooner...not sure why... Maybe they're up all night drinking with friends instead of practicing?...IDK the reason, just noticed the pattern.
Re: Abused housewives are happier/healthier than (Score:3)
There's no deep reason behind that. I like doing things I enjoy to enjoy myself. Actively aiming for some goal makes me enjoy it a lot less. And the people who go about it that way make me feel like they're always trying to prove something, which I find exhausting.
To give a concrete example, I
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To give a concrete example, I really enjoy cycling. On a free day, I often just hop on and go explore in a new direction, stopping at places I like. Some of my friends and co-workers also cycle, but they're "serious" about it. When we talk about it, they genuinely seem to try but don't get me. But if you ride like that, you're not even getting in a decent number of kilometres! Why would you ride there when there's no elevation? And what do I mean, I'm not practicing for something?
I would not go on a cycle trip with them. We wouldn't get along.
Out drinking? I do that, but not too regularly, and not excessively. I just really enjoy my spare time more if I do relaxing stuff with people who also just like to enjoy life and don't overthink stuff.
We can combine both of these. Have you ever been out drinking with people who are too serious about their drinks? Analysing microbrews instead of just enjoying a drink with friends. Agonising over the terroir of a wine or complaining that it wasn't decanted properly, instead of just enjoying it.
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Americans have more stress, but more optimism and hope for the future...
That's really the problem, isn't it? It's false hope for most. It keeps people from seeking improvement when they have their heads up their own asses. Maybe for you it's justified, depending on how long you expect to live past today. But things are getting markedly worse for the average American right now. Wages are flat or declining against inflation, depending on who you talk to, especially if you talk to someone who thinks that price inflation is limited to monetary inflation. And unless you're an AGW de
Re: WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosys (Score:2)
Best summary. I'll reuse it.
Re: WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosys (Score:3)
Speaking as someone in my mid seventies, plus 5 years sounds great.
Too bad moving to the EU doesn't instantly grant you that.
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Good news, additional life expectancy for older people is much higher in the US than it is in the EU.
Average life expectancy for someone 75 years old in the US is 11 years for a man, 13 years for a woman.
Average life expectancy for someone 75 years old in Europe is 4 years for a man, 9 years for a woman.
Sources:
https://data.europa.eu/data/da... [europa.eu]
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS... [ssa.gov]
Re: WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosys (Score:4, Interesting)
That's because if you get to 75 years old in the U.S. you are more likley to be reasonably well-off—if you aren't you are more likely die before that of preventable causes. And if you are well-off, that helps once you're past 75 as well. Of course plenty of poor people reach 75 in the U.S., but percentage-wise fewer do.
Also, the EU is a big place with lots of different countries. I live in the Netherlands, where you routinely see 80-year-olds riding bicycles. This is less common in other european countries, but that's changing. Your comparison would be more useful it if were by individual country rather than including the whole continent. I don't actually know if it's any different in the Netherlands—we have income inequality issues here too—but it would make sense if it were because people are so much more physically active here throughout life.
Re: WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosys (Score:5, Insightful)
That sounds a very American thing to say. Are you American?
By the time your are in your 80s statistically you will have bad eyesight and poor reactions, making your a menace on the roads. If you haven't found an alternative, you have failed at life, and are possibly a bit of a psychopath, not caring if you endanger others jist so you can get yours.
Frankly being dependent on a car is a bit of a fuck up at life.
I consider my life a great success because I don't have to waste my time behind the wheel.
Re: WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosys (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly being dependent on a car is a bit of a fuck up at life.
America is a bit of a fuckup as a country, so that tracks. We don't have very many places where the elderly can get all the things they need (like health care) and also don't need a car, and the ones which exist tend to be expensive to live in. We're way too addicted to automobiles, and too many of our cities are designed around them to the exclusion of all other considerations. There's nowhere to put cycle paths or rail lines because of all the roads. Even where there is, when you try, it's a fight for every mile.
Re:WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosyst (Score:4, Interesting)
I would agree that the Infinite Growth Forever economic model is a bit, shall we say, thermodynamically flawed.
However, I would contend that there's nothing about economic growth in itself that requires we produce as much garbage and pollution as we do, nor that we handle it as badly as we do. That's a separate, albeit related, pathology.
Re:WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosyst (Score:5, Insightful)
At this point a lot of economic growth is just generating garbage, but because we are so addicted to growth, we have to keep generating garbage.
A better question to ask would be, would you prefer to live in Europe or the U.S.? Not work, live. The idea that our lives should be work from graduation to grave doesn't really seem like something we ought to be valorizing—it sucks for the planet, and it sucks for us.
Would I. prefer to live in Europe rather than the USA? Looking at Europe's history, I'd take the USA any day.
Seems it was a place where many innocent people died, with genocide occurring even in the 1990's.
You can bloviate on how Europe is superior to the USA in all respects, a place where all are welcome and happy.
Out of curiosity is your history banned or something? I'm terribly ashamed of some of the things the US has done, you all seem to have suppressed the horrors you have delivered to the world. Russia has good reason to hate Europe, and let us not forget about the Jews, the Roma, the gays, the blacks and all the other groups you killed in establishing a master race - and no, it was not only Germany, they had plenty of supporters in the countries they took over.
Couldn't happen again, though, eh? the 1990's were not that long ago, the tendencies have not gone away.
And before we get too much of a rageboner, all areas have dirty laundry. Just that altogether too many Europeans stilll act like they are the master race - we're told that every day as any topic gets turned Into a dish on the Assholes in the USA, in a few posts.
Frankly, that is a combination of whataboutism coupled with a deep inferiority complex that always comes out . A dead lock this post will be at -1 in a few minutes. Don't care if I gave the European ubermenchen booboo feelings.
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You're the victim.
We're all the victims, even the people who think they're the victors, because this man-against-man bullshit is not sustainable. It consumes resources and produces pollution. Only through cooperation can we live in such immense numbers on this planet without destroying the biosphere on which we depend for life.
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I can't figure out if your talking about the US or Europe.
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let us not forget about the Jews, the Roma, the gays, the blacks and all the other groups you killed in establishing a master race - and no, it was not only Germany, they had plenty of supporters in the countries they took over.
They also had a lot of supporters in the USA. Plenty of Californian academics received scholarships to Germany in the 1930s to study eugenics too.
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Out of curiosity is your history banned or something? I'm terribly ashamed of some of the things the US has done, you all seem to have suppressed the horrors you have delivered to the world.
I can tell you've never been in museums in Germany that touch on WW2 or really spent much time around Germans at all. Germans are by far the best at owning the sins of their country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]. , while they own their actions during the war our red states try to white wash slavery, our treatment of the native Americans, and the civil rights movement so "white kids don't feel bad". Even talking to Germans, most will tell you they were the bad guys in WW2. There are a lot of Americans wh
Plutocrats? Average vs. Median (Score:2)
Median GDP may give a more useful metric because US's bloated rich skews averages. So far google is giving wildly diff results.
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I think it's also a case of picking the endpoints to suit your narrative.
Because big things happened between 2005 and 2025, namely the iPhone and the economy behind it that lead to Android and it basically wiping out all the traditional cellphone companies like BlackBerry and Nokia and such and turning the US into a mobile powerhouse, a position formerly held by Europe and Japan.
And it's also excluding the effects of Trump on the economy - the numbers are looking bad enough that they US government has to ce
Re: WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosys (Score:2)
So why are you still here?
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We can ask them - far more Europeans migrate to the USA than Americans to Europe. I know, because I was one of them. Don't base your idea of living in Europe on your one-week vacation to Paris or Milan, or on what you read from people with an agenda. Some things back home are better, many things are worse.
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I live in Europe. It's definitely not a utopia (nor is it a single country!). However, I don't think that being more like the U.S. would make Europe better. That's my only point here. Yes, Europe could definitely be better (even the European country where I live!), but being more like the U.S. would make it worse. Certainly going in the direction of "growth first" would not make it better, although again I'm sure some percentage of those who emigrated to the U.S. would say this would be better.
The country I
Didn't know it was a competition (Score:5, Insightful)
But yet my first choice (Score:5, Insightful)
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This is such a ridiculous statement. You mean to tell me you have spent time in all 55 US States and Territories and 50 European Countries and Territories and can say there is no contest? Transnistria/Moldova and Bulgaria are unequivocally better places to live than New Hampshire or Hawaii?
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The simple fact is both Europe and China are safer and lower stress that the USA. Don't believe me then try buying international travel insurance,
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If you want to extend safety to include healthc
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Should have dropped the racism sooner. (Score:5, Interesting)
Europe doesn't do much in the device/computer space, beyond maybe ASML & Europe sucks in software, but really everyone but the USA does. And honestly, they're probably #2. Japan is SHIIIIT on software. Seriously, WTF guys?...you do so much so well, but there's not a single Japanese software product I know of on the market and every UI in every Japanese device ranging from cameras to cars is dogshit...looks like it hasn't changed since the 80s and is unnecessarily complex and unintuitive. China?...same. Australia has a company or 2, but that's all I know of...beyond SAP...which is typically poorly regarded. No one "chooses" SAP...it's chosen for them by someone who will never use it...typically after being heavily bribed. They're regarded by most as a better version of IBM...which is far from a compliment.
America is awesome in most things, but the main reason is we've been so immigrant friendly for so long (not counting current administration). We're not only happy to take your best minds...we'll give them a fucking loan, great bankruptcy protection, and a huge talent pool as well as the best access to seasoned investors and mentors. Well over half of our recent best companies were founded or cofounded by immigrants. We're inherently great...but....out overall greatness is massively amplified by imported talent.
Once Europe can figure out how to support their entrepreneurs and immigrants and help them start businesses, they will have no problem competing, if not overtaking the USA in the innovation corner. IMO, that's why Japan never overtook us and China and India never will. All 3 of those societies are inherently racist and isolationist. They can only compete with their own minds.
Europe has recently changed their ways to welcome more immigrants recently. Just 10 years ago, if you moved to Sweden, spoke perfect Swedish, but had a foreign accent, you were not really accepted or integrated into society, especially if you weren't white...yeah, no one firebombed your house...but your kids had a stigma and would face resistance marrying locals, for example. You were never a "real Swede"...same with most of Europe beyond maybe Great Britain.
The reason Trump is so shitty to immigrants is that many in the USA never liked how welcoming we are of immigrants...and it can be shitty being an immigrant in the USA...until you compare it to the China, India, Norway, Romania, Greece, France, the Middle East, etc. You can not only live here, especially in urban areas...you can intermarry, be welcomed in communities, etc. If you learn the language and do minimal efforts to fit in (like follow the regional sports teams), you're 100% American to about 75% of the total population...probably 90% in urban/suburban areas. Here, in MA, immigrants with THICK accents do well in the suburbs simply with a Pats shirt (New England Patriots, our local football team) and basic friendliness. They and their kids are welcomed by the locals and integrated as much as they'd like to be...especially immigrants that make the effort to assimilate, like most Chinese and Filipino families.
I know about 10 years ago, that WAS NOT the case in most of Europe, especially the shitty parts, like Bulgaria, but even the wealthier nations as well. I've been told that's changing. But yeah...treat immigrants like shit and you're stuck with local talent.
So fix your cultural issues and then start giving everyone support in starting businesses, and then you'll catch up with the USA. Yeah, you got some dumb regulations, but that's a minor part of the story. The USA has plenty of stupid regulations and our most regulated states have historically had the most success. Our most unregulated states, like Texas and Flo
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A lot of companies in the world are actually European, but few people are aware. You mention SAP, which is actually German. Important pharmaceutic
al companies are officially US, but most of the work is done in Europe (remember the Covid vaccines?). Belgium has a huge chemical industry, which is all owned by US companies. Etc etc.
I'd rather live and work in the countries that make stuff and innovate than in the ones that have the stock market bling bling. Us Europeans will just survive and thrive, do our own
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You mention SAP, which is actually German. Important pharmaceutic
al companies are officially US, but most of the work is done in Europe (remember the Covid vaccines?).
I also remember another time that a lot of *ahem* important pharmaceutical work was done in *ahem* Germany
Europe "sucks in software"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, it's a good thing that Linux, Skype, Python and the World Wide Web were invented by good ol' Americans.
Oh. Wait...
We funded them when their homeland wouldn't!!! (Score:2)
Yeah, it's a good thing that Linux, Skype, Python and the World Wide Web were invented by good ol' Americans.
Oh. Wait...
You're proving my point. We were happy to absorb your talent and fund them. We don't limit ourselves to things invented by "good ol' Americans" We didn't see Linus as a foreigner...we saw him as a source of talent. IBM poured a ton of money into Linux as did Red Hat and various others. We're happy to let foreigners lead and thrive.
And relative to the USA...sorry guys, your software is like our cheese...we got some good cheese in the USA...but nothing compared to the whole of Europe. Not every US ch
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IBM poured a ton of money into Linux as did Red Hat and various others. We're happy to let foreigners lead and thrive.
They also poured money into Lennart Poettering which cancels out Linus on the scoreboard.
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They were not US citizens at the time they invented the things I mentioned.
Sure, a lot of people move to the US for money. It's that way for Canadians too, or it used to be. Nowadays, people are having second thoughts, with (for example) a world-renowned cardiologist turning down a position in the USA [yahoo.com].
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But the regulations preserve people's privacy and stop tech oligarchs from abusing consumers so much. I think that might be a reasonable tradeoff.
I specifically said regulation wasn't the issue (Score:2)
But the regulations preserve people's privacy and stop tech oligarchs from abusing consumers so much. I think that might be a reasonable tradeoff.
Regulation needs to "be regulated" It's not simple and needs to be right-sized. Europe isn't held behind because of regulation...if that were the case, California would be the poorest state in the nation, not the wealthiest. Europe is held behind primarily because they don't support entrepreneurs as well as the USA, especially Silicon Valley does...and they're racist. Yeah...they got a lot better recently because they noticed how they were left behind in the information age....we imported every frustra
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It's just that there would be a lot more, and stronger economic growth in general, if regulation were more sane.
The innovation problem in EU is well known and it is financial. If you have a startup and need VC money, it's much easier to obtain it in the US. This is what explains people moving there, because the VCs demand that their funds are spent inside the US.
The problem can't be regulation, because whatever innovation made in the US ends up on the EU market as well.
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Japan is SHIIIIT on software. Seriously, WTF guys?
Breath of the Wild. Tears of the Kingdom.
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Once Europe can figure out how to support their entrepreneurs and immigrants and help them start businesses, they will have no problem competing, if not overtaking the USA in the innovation corner. IMO, that's why Japan never overtook us and China and India never will. All 3 of those societies are inherently racist and isolationist. They can only compete with their own minds.
Ah yes, that's the problem; Europe hasn't invited enough exotic people, lol
Enjoy your domestic talent, then (Score:2)
Ah yes, that's the problem; Europe hasn't invited enough exotic people, lol
Your mentality proves my point. If the Swedes want to exclude non-Swedes, they're only going to progress as far as Swedish nationals will take them. Japan did really well for a long time due to their fundamental greatness, but have really failed to adapt to the modern era...perhaps some fresh thinking would have helped them lead the information age instead of getting clobbered by the Americans?
Korea and China are going through something similar. America has the benefit of our homegrown talent as well
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Found it a bit humorous that your big mentions for European exceptionalism (Novo Nordisk and ASML) rely pretty heavily on the US.
Novo Nordisk does the majority of their R&D in the US, with their largest facility (with the most patents and papers) in Boston.
ASML's on the other hand is almost entirely a collection of US companies they bought out (Cymer invented their EUV/DUV tech, SVG produces the lithography equipment, and Brion Tech provided their patterning and lithography software). The "key componen
Can my son marry your daughter/niece? (Score:2)
Insightful comment. Speaking as a proud American of Indian (Asian) origin, of 25 years [ GeorgiaTech + ex MIT startups ]
I agree and would like to add that India is currently overcoming its hangover of British invasionist colonialism and failed Islamic conquests (similar to the Spanish inquisition).
But by and large, India is pretty tourist + investor/startup friendly, especially Bengaluru, the Silicon Valley of India. Goa, etc ... e.g.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=... [youtube.com]
Also, I am more alarmed at the open air drug use & violent crime rates in the US : as compared to India with 1/9th the population density (3x landmass containing 0.3 of the population). :/
Most countries welcome tourist dollars. :). What happens if the tourists want to assimilate?
To me, the greatest measure of racial acceptance is the willingness to join families. Your cousins in India? If their daughter falls in love with my non-Indian son, will they support the marriage? If your daughter meets an awesome black guy...will you let her marry him?...now think carefully, not the answer you're supposed to give...but what you really feel. Your daughter is torn between dating a good son of Ind
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You mean like getting rid of all the guns that these people are using to kill us? Or even just implementing simple measures like tracking a fire arm for its lifetime so you can make sure it doesnt fall into the hands of criminals? No, you'd rather pretend our murder rate that's 5 times greater than left wing Europe's fault is some how the fault of the American left.
I can think of two reasons (Score:2)
Competition from China
Way too many rules that make it nearly impossible to make anything
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Europe is suffering under the weight of poor policy choices:
1) Over-regulation
On paper, strict regulation protects consumers, the environment, and markets. But in a global economy, excessive red tape can stifle innovation and push industries abroad. Multiple studies from the European Commission note that fragmented regulations and bureaucratic compliance burdens weaken competitiveness compared to the U.S. and Asia.
2) Terrorism
Contrary to common perception, terrorism remains an ongoing challenge in Europe. A
California must be poorer than Alabama then (Score:2)
Competition from China Way too many rules that make it nearly impossible to make anything
If regulation was that strong of a factor, California would be poor AF...same with NY and MA. Also, EVERYONE competes with China, especially Japan and Korea. Regulation is a factor, but I'd not put it in the top 2. Maybe you shouldn't be asking "what are we doing wrong?" as much as "what aren't we doing?" California really supports new businesses. I'd look deeper into them for lessons moreso than thinking of grievances with European status quo.
Maybe it's not less about what you did wrong, but more ab
Depends how you measure it (Score:5, Insightful)
If you measure "winning" by per-capita GDP, then yes. Europe is way behind the USA.
If you measure "winning" by happiness, healthcare affordability, and leisure time, then Europe is way, way, way ahead of the USA.
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Actually, if you compare the downtown of an average European city to the downtown of an average American city, the European city is a whole lot livelier and more fun. I'll take places like Amsterdam or Stockholm over car-dependent hellholes like Phoenix or Dallas any day.
I don't live in Europe or the USA, but if I had to pick one to live in, it certainly would not be the USA.
Re: Depends how you measure it (Score:2)
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I'm grateful for all the people who want to stay away from the USA. I just wish there were more that would stay away.
Your happiness and freedom is subsidized (Score:2)
If I observe some of the politics and social dynamics happening in "superpower" countries like the USA, Russia, or China, I feel quite happy to live in a calm, boring oblivion country.
Yeah, but a lot of your peace and prosperity is because the USA defends your country and especially your neighbors. We have long patrolled the ocean and ensured your exports and imports arrived safely ...and reminded your Soviet neighbors to back the fuck off. ...now that our current president wants to end all that, you may see what life is like without having a superpower friend.
America has many flaws, but as superpowers go, we are surprisingly benevolent. I'd rather be living in Guam or Puerto Rico
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Several countries in Europe (and New Zealand) have abandoned GDP as their main metric. Even its inventor was quick to point out its flaws.
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It's not about winning or losing, it's about identifying a significant problem that should be solved. Europe seems to no longer be good at making money. Saying "well we do better than America in these other areas" does nothing to change this. With your typically strong educational systems and history of wealth Europe shouldn't be having this problem and this is a problem that needs to be solved because a lot of what you list will go away or become diminished if Europe bleeds off enough of its wealth.
Holy non sequitur, Batman ! (Score:2)
"Europe's share of global economic output has fallen from 33% to 23% since 2005 while its space launch capacity has nearly collapsed,"
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A lunatic like Jamie Dimon. This is basically a dupe, though written by someone else. It makes the same points, including the mistake of not accounting for the exit of Britain from the EU GDP total. I wonder how the authors of this article are acquainted with Jamie Dimon?
Jamie Dimon's Blunt Message for Europe: 'You're Losing' [slashdot.org]
(The original story is from CNBC [cnbc.com])
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It seems Mr Dimon is indeed a demented Europe-hater who doesn't understand how to argue a point.
GDP is not equal to prosperity (Score:2)
GDP is usually a measure of how wealthy the wealthiest person in a country. It is NOT relevant to poverty. Many countries with high GDP also have high poverty. And many countries with low GDP have low poverty.
Mainly because salaries have not kept up with profits. So GDP no longer is correlated to poverty.
Per capita GDP is one of the dumbest metrics (Score:2, Insightful)
It measures economic activity. Not quality of life. Not quality of the environment. Just how much value is extracted per population on average. A baby will have the same per capita GDP as whoever is the richest person in that country.
It does not reflect anything on the quality of life, nor on the actual wealth of the population.
4:1 US to EU immigration (Score:3)
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Europeans travel, Americans don't. Whether a place is "better" is often secondary to this cultural issue. Some people like America, despite its faults and Europe's benefits, some the opposite.
Yeah, money can't buy everything but it sure helps.
Yes people obsessed with the idea that you can buy happiness tend to flock to the USA. The idea that you measure your life by the dollar signs is not uncommon in the EU either. That said the difference for quality of life is that Europe doesn't have to. If you don't make loads of money in the USA you're fucked. If you
Americans don't need to travel (Score:2)
Europeans travel, Americans don't.
Our landmass is huge and BEAUTIFUL and we have every type of climate and scenery out there. Very few of us live close enough to another country to cheaply travel there like you do in Europe, so most wealthy and upper middle class Americans have been the Europe...but for the middle class, we can go to Switzerland or we can go to Utah for far cheaper...and deal with the shittier UT beer. Also, consider how beautiful the USA is. Europe can't compete with our natural beauty...from AZ to UT to HI to CA to eve
It's a point of view thing (Score:2, Interesting)
In the EU, most people don't pay health insurance, don't worry about being left homeless, pay exactly what the price of lunch is (no tipping) enjoy their lives without feeling like they need to constantly work, work, work. Oh and there's a distinct lack of guns everywhere.
OTOH, the US innovates better but the cost is the US debt which is like 95% of GDP compared to 86% of GDP for the EU.
The US debt was a lot lower than the EU until 2008 when US politicians found out they could fund almost anything by pushi
Is it losing or are others improving? (Score:2)
Europe’s share of global economic output, measured in current dollars, fell from roughly 33% to 23% between 2005 and 2024
Percentage proportions are a zero sum game because there is only 100% of a whole. Thus, in economics, the percentage share of global economic output is a measure of DOMINANCE, not health.
If the EU, China, and USA economies have fully expanded but Lesotho establishes a New Renaissance, with their global market share jumping from 1% to 5%, the proportion of global market control for EU, China, and USA would have decreased, but it wouldn't mean that they would be any less well off.
Per capita GDP alone isn't useful information (Score:3)
For example - In some places you don't have to pay for healthcare or childcare and you get twice as much paid vacation and parental leave, but your taxes are higher.
The US is ranked 23rd in happiness, with most of Europe far ahead, while the US is 13th in cost of living, with only 3 European countries ahead of it.
There are lots of ways to define winning and losing, and this isn't one of them.
I'm a happy loser (Score:2)
When I look to American unhappy winners I'm happy to be loser. Global output is dropping? I'm okay with that, you guys can keep your 6 day workweeks, your lack of holidays, etc.
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What you should be worried about is how you'll eventually pay for everything if this isnt eventually turned around.
Average salaries are meaningless (Score:2)
The GINI coeeficient (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient) is a better measure as it takes into account several other things
"The Gini coefficient measures the inequality among the values of a frequency distribution, such as income levels. A Gini coefficient of 0 reflects perfect equality, where all income or wealth values are the same. In contrast, a Gini coefficient of 1 (or 100%) reflects maximal inequality among values, where a single individual has all the income while all others have none."
Losing WHAT? (Score:3)
Maybe GDP growth shouldn't be the end all be all for measuring a society?
Go and look at overall happiness ranked globally by country. See how many of those countries are in Europe. The US meanwhile is 23rd.
Or, go and look at overall Human Development Index. The US is #16. All of the top 6 countries are in Europe.
GDP is a meaningless way to measure what average people in a country actually experience in life.
Space launches? (Score:2)
I get why economic output is in the list of comparisons, growth, and GDP. But why is the number of space launches there? Is the number of space launches now a measure of the success of a region?
What worries me (Score:2)
Europe basically doesn't have a tech sector. We're sucking on the USA's tit, while the USA has recently proven to be an unreliable "ally". You'd guess our bureaucratic institutions would run to the few local suppliers (such as Suse) there are... but no, they all keep buying Microsoft and Intel like nothing is going on.
All the while Trump can press a button and the entire EU will grind to a halt. From another perspective, all that American influence is slowly strangling our own IT industry... the little that
Not really (Score:2)
Losing in a contest where all the money is owned by a handful of people.
Seems idiotic to cheer for that.
Wrong headline (Score:2)
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Slaving away (Score:3)
The only reason the US has a higher per capita GDP is because Americans work far more hours, not because they’re more productive per hour.
OECD data shows that the average American works about 1,800 hours a year, while the average German works closer to 1,350. That’s a 33% difference in hours worked. But the productivity per hour is actually higher in Germany.
In other words, the US GDP per capita appears higher because workers are on the treadmill longer, with fewer rights, less vacation, unpaid sick leave, no parental leave, and no educational time off. The "wealth" is produced by burning through human hours, not by working smarter.
So yes, US workers are essentially propping up that $86,000 figure by grinding nonstop—often with no paid time off, no fallback safety net, and no choice but to keep going even when sick or burnt out. That’s not efficiency. That’s exploitation.
Re:Divorce the USA (Score:4, Insightful)
Europe is run by the US. This process will continue until Europe wakes up and stops following whatever the U.S. tells them to do.
First post and you turned it into the USA's fault.
Yup, there's a reason Europe is falling behind. They have turned to victim mentality. How's that working out for ya'll?
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The fact that you are paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you.
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europe isn't run by the us, it is subservient to the us but is run by a bunch of european oligarchs represented by a highly mediocre and incompetent political class ... actually just like the us. there is no point in shifting blame and no, europe does not know how to regenerate, not even if they detached from the us ... which they aren't doing, actually quite the opposite, they're going to absurd extremes to stay under the us umbrella. not a good choice.
economically europe is bust and degrading fast ... jus
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THis might lead to easier immigration policies in the long term
A lot of them might be coming from the US if conditions deteriorate. [ If they are allowed to ]
The punitive tax and reporting regulations for US citizens keep most from leaving.
Of course, that's what the border wall is truly for in the long term. To keep Americans in and prevent them from emigrating to Canada and Mexico.