
Amazon Drivers Are Instructed To Drive Recklessly To Meet Delivery Quotas (vice.com) 134
Amazon delivery companies around the United States are encouraging reckless and dangerous driving by ordering delivery drivers to shut off an app called Mentor that Amazon uses to monitor drivers' speed and give them a safety score to prevent accidents. Drivers say they are being ordered to turn the app off by their bosses so that they can speed through their delivery routes in order to hit Amazon's delivery targets. From a report: Sign out of Mentor if you haven't already," an dispatcher at an Amazon delivery company texted a delivery driver at DDT2, an Amazon warehouse in the suburbs of Detroit, Michigan a little after noon on a day in March, according to a screenshot obtained by Motherboard. This was less than five hours into his 10-hour shift. "Starting tomorrow everyone needs to be logged into Mentor for at least 2 hours no more no less, so make sure that's one of the first things we're doing in the mornings," a dispatcher at DAT2, an Amazon delivery station in the suburbs of Atlanta told drivers who work 10-hour shifts in a group chat in May 2020.
Mentor is a smartphone app made by a company called eDriving, which partners with Amazon to monitor the driving behaviors of delivery drivers at Amazon Delivery Service Partners, which are quasi-independent companies who are contracted by Amazon to deliver packages in Amazon-branded vans. Using sensors in a driver's smartphone, Mentor collects information about a driver's acceleration, braking, cornering, and speeding. It also detects "phone distraction" based on how much a driver is using their phone outside of the Mentor app. It then gives drivers a "FICO Safe Driving Score" in order to "objectively measure how safe a driver is." Amazon ties driver bonuses to several metrics, including a delivery worker's driving score.
Mentor is a smartphone app made by a company called eDriving, which partners with Amazon to monitor the driving behaviors of delivery drivers at Amazon Delivery Service Partners, which are quasi-independent companies who are contracted by Amazon to deliver packages in Amazon-branded vans. Using sensors in a driver's smartphone, Mentor collects information about a driver's acceleration, braking, cornering, and speeding. It also detects "phone distraction" based on how much a driver is using their phone outside of the Mentor app. It then gives drivers a "FICO Safe Driving Score" in order to "objectively measure how safe a driver is." Amazon ties driver bonuses to several metrics, including a delivery worker's driving score.
Amazon Technology (Score:1)
Is gaming the metrics. Been that way since I was there 10 years ago. Bezos don't really care.
Re:Amazon Technology (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Not knowing is about as bad. (Score:5, Informative)
Amazon is not who is telling them to turn off the app. The drivers work for a company CONTRACTED to deliver for Amazon, and that company is telling them to turn off Amazon's app.
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The bad deed in question generating bad publicity of course, not turning off the app ... that was intended.
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Whoops. Forgot to tip my hat to the Pony Express.
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Amazon allows them to turn it on 2 hours out of 10 to optimize their profits.
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Sounds like Amazon is complicit. If they don't know, they should know better, but we all know that they know, just like with Wells Fargo.
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Legally, Amazon is responsible for what it's employees do. That includes responsibility for crappy managers instructing drivers to drive unsafely and assigning schedules incompatible with safe driving.
Ask a CEO why he makes millions a year plus bonuses that are never not paid out and they'll tell you it's because he is responsible for every single thing that happens in the company.
BUT, when something bad happens, watch him point his finger down the hierarchy.
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They are not Amazon employees. They are employees of companies Amazon has contracted with to do deliveries. At least read the damn summary.
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It's a paper wall at most. Read in depth.
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The wall between Amazon and the "contractors" is paper thin. Amazon is setting the routes and the quotas. Amazon is (failing to) monitor the safety app.
More reading, less cool aid!
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Indeed - "American Management Methodology" and don't the rest of us poor schmucks in the rest of the world regret it rearing it's ugly head about two decades ago. "Empowerment" and "you decide how you do your job" to "micromanagement" and "do as I say unless it goes wrong and then it's your responsibility" in just 20 years.
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Odds are Bezos don't know.
There are no 'odds' about it. Bezos doesn't know, doesn't want to know, and employs people to ensure he never finds out. Successful leaders are obligated not to know. The whole point is diffusion of responsibility.
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We used to call that the Nuremberg Defence [wikipedia.org]. Sorry, but "I was just following orders" didn't work back then and it won't work now.
Bezos knows (Score:2)
We set the speed limit lower than it needs to be in an effort to push back on these games, but it fucks over the drivers who have to constantly be worried about getting pulled over (and maybe shot). Periodically they get screwed and end up losi
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A grand fucking total of five people were shot and killed by police in the UK in 2020.. Out of a nation of 65-70m.
Scaling up that means the sensible number for the US would be around 25-30 people. Not around a thousand.
Seems to me you're defending a fucking shitshow.
Re: Amazon Technology (Score:2)
The issue has existed for a very long time. I saw this:
http://web.mnstate.edu/alm/hum... [mnstate.edu]
while I was in the military, long before the world wide web.
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This is a common pattern. You set impossible goals that can only be met by eliding important safety or environmental regulations, while at the same time sub-contracting out the work. You see it in textiles, waste management, infrastructure maintenance, logistics, etc. The parent company gets the increased profits, pays out less benefits, and when someone gets hurt or killed, they get to play ignorant and lament that the poor stupid SOBs at the sub were too greedy to follow the regs.
There is no way that A
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I hate Amazon, but I fail to see how this is Amazon's fault. Amazon probably has a contract with the delivery company. The delivery company agreed to a certain metric regarding delivery. They probably also agreed to have the drivers run the Amazon app, since Amazon doesn't want any backlash because of an Amazon truck hitting a pedestrian or be named as a reckless driver.
It's the delivery company that should be blamed for agreeing to the metrics and then forcing their drivers to shut off the app. The del
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The "it's their own responsibility" defence is not without merit, but the moment they released the app they lost the standing to use it. Now they are just hypocritical liars by pretending the app is relevant while they designed the system to only have it be turned on 20% of the time.
They could have been ethically consistent assholes, they chose to be hypocritical lying assholes instead ... that's entirely on Amazon.
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Deniability is only plausible if Amazon doesn't know. Now we are all sure that Amazon knows what is being done with their money. Either they do something about it or they become complicit. Knowingly doing business that involves unsafe practices gives you a part of responsibility for these unsafe practices.
Re:Amazon Technology [layers the blame] (Score:2)
Such a hurry to FP you couldn't take time to decipher "Amazon delivery companies"? Not really blaming you, but it's the time thing driving flawed FPs. I guess the systems that promote "highly liked" comments are offering the better solution approach... So my solution approach should be another round of searches for such a discussion website that doesn't have bigger flaws than Slashdot's?
Oh well, my first attempt at a joke around the story was also flawed. And now it feels likes it's too late to wrestle anot
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I don't get it. If it was just gaming the system why say '2 hours no more no less'? Almost seems like a way to have a sample size without flooding the system with more info than they're willing to pay or already paid for.
Especially since Amazon would be incentivized to run it all the time if their bonuses could be directly impacted by capturing more data and therefore the possibility of bad behavior.
Re:Amazon Technology (Score:4, Insightful)
What people are missing is that this isn't Amazon Inc, it's the delivery companies that they contract with shutting the app off. These are the same companies that are not giving drivers time for restroom breaks. Except for UPS and USPS these are small businesses under contract to do the deliveries. Of course the knee-jerk Amazon-haters don't care because Jeff Bezos is the representation of all that is evil in the universe so it's his fault.
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Maybe three years ago you could make that argument. Now they should know with all the news that is coming out.
If this is still happening in three years or Amazon doesn't start a program in the near future to stop this, then it's their fault.
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It's also a 'tactic' that large companies use when dealing with myriad local conditions that don't allow for standardization. That was the original reason for automobile dealerships for example, Detroit had no appreciation of what local conditions were in every city they wanted to sell cars in so gave up that portion of the possible profits to vendors with local knowledge. In the delivery industry the conditions for delivering packages in rural Skykomish Valley are dramatically different than would be enc
It's the company gaming their own system. (Score:2)
Why is it that "metrics" companies set are almost always unrealistic and near unattainable except by luck?
Re:It's the company gaming their own system. (Score:4, Insightful)
It is because there is a lack of interest in looking at the metrics to see what they really mean.
Oh look driver A who drives in the City gets stuck in traffic a lot, has to do crazy parking, vs driver B who does the Suburbs, where it is just house to house.
So Driver A looks bad while Driver B looks really good. No one wants to do a deep dive into why Driver A is performing Poorly in comparison, or swap driver routes around to see what the differences are. They will just give Driver B a raise, and his manager a gold star for good management. While Driver A gets demoted, and his manager gets less attention.
Metrics are a tool to find differences, between things, but not a good way to rate their quality.
If you find someone exceeding or lagging, that means there is a target for a deeper dive.
Re:It's the company gaming their own system. (Score:4, Informative)
If you find someone exceeding or lagging, that means there is a target for a deeper dive.
That is the literal (in the truest sense of the word) synopsis of a paper on metrics I read years ago (and still have a copy). In short, you have to know what you want to measure then figure out how to properly measure it.
One of the examples used was a help desk. If you measure people solely on the number of tickets they resolve, you can have a situation where someone tells their friends to call them every so often with easy issues. The person will then have a bunch of tickets closed quickly which makes their metrics look good.
Meanwhile, the gal beside them is taking calls from Billy Bob who is barely able to speak coherently, let alone operate a computer, and has to spend an inordinately long time trying to resolve the person's problem or ends up getting the more difficult calls in general. To those looking at metrcis, she's far behind the other person because she's closing substantially fewer tickets.
What's not being looked at are the tickets themselves. If someone is getting a password reset ticket, that can be closed in a minute whereas if you're trying to diagnose and fix someone who is getting feedback on a video call, that will take longer. The question becomes, who do you want on your help desk? If you go solely by metrics, you want the first person. If you look deeper, clearly you want the second person.
Re: It's the company gaming their own system. (Score:2)
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I would be careful with the Boob size metrics too.
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The problem is that there are conflicting metrics: "deliveries per hour" and "safe driving".
There are different people with their bonuses attached to each metric, so at the corporate level, you get schizophrenic behavior. Legal and PR are pushing safe driving while the dispatchers tell the drivers to turn off the monitoring and drive faster.
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"Dispatching" is the separate contracted business that the driver works for. Legal and PR are Amazon. They're not the same thing.
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Exactly.
I used to work (20 years ago) at a technical hotline for an ISP. We had a number of call target (dailay average over one month) that we had to make to get a bonus. It makes at-a-glance sense: you want your people to help people quickly and effectively.
But that number was completely unrealistic. You could not hit that number typically. I think it was 37 calls per day (that was a long time ago.) so one call per 12 minutes for an 8 hour shift.
In summer, there were not enough calls for each of us to mak
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The vast majority of the delivery drivers work for small businesses with less than 20 employees, "more profit for those at the top" might mean an extra week at Disney for the owner and their family. Bezos isn't making an extra penny, and in fact the money Amazon has invested in the monitoring app is being wasted by contractors who aren't using it.
Didn't all the privacy fanatics and Amazon-haters here complain a few weeks ago that this app was being used at all? Yep, here it is:
https://tech.slashdot.org/st [slashdot.org]
Amazon Delivery Service Partners seem like they (Score:2)
Amazon Delivery Service Partners seem like they get seen as joint employers.
Also in cases of drivers driving Recklessly if they get into an bad crash amazon will get sued and they may not be able hide behind an Amazon Delivery Service Partners even more if in court it comes out that the Quotas are unsafe.
Re:Amazon Delivery Service Partners seem like they (Score:4, Informative)
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The Deliverator's car has enough potential energy packed into its batteries to fire a pound of bacon into the asteroid Belt. Unlike a bimbo box or a Burb beater, the Deliverator's car unloads that power through gaping, gleaming, polished sphincters. When the Deiverator puts the hammer down, shit happens. You want to talk contact patches? Your car's tires have tiny contact patches, talk to the asphalt in four places the size of your tongue. The Deliverator's car has big sticky tires with contact patches the
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Do you want unions? That's how you get unions. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Unions are one solution.
Robots are another.
and when Robots are set to Mario Andretti mode? (Score:3)
and when Robots are set to Mario Andretti mode? vs Safe Truck driver mode?
Re:and when Robots are set to Mario Andretti mode? (Score:4, Informative)
and when Robots are set to Mario Andretti mode? vs Safe Truck driver mode?
It is likely that the last-mile robots will be quadrocopter drones rather than trucks or vans.
But even if they are self-driving trucks, the financial incentive to deliver faster will be much less. Amazon drivers are paid $18-$25 per hour, depending on location. Add 50% more for overhead. A robot will be way cheaper.
Re: and when Robots are set to Mario Andretti mode (Score:2)
I'd suggest a van that carries aerial drones into a neighborhood and then releases a small swarm of drones to deliver packages before moving on. Looking forward to seeing Bezos saying "Fly, my pretties, fly!" and cackling.
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I'd suggest a van that carries aerial drones into a neighborhood and then releases a small swarm of drones
I believe that this is how it will work. There will be an autonomous van with a fleet of drones.
Amazon has patented the concept [geekwire.com].
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Por qué no los dos?
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The problem is when they do unionize in the 20th century, none of this is brought up in collective bargaining. It is about giving everyone no matter their performance a 10% raise, and force an overly expensive medical plan to be paid for by the company. Sure if they strike, they bring up these safety concerns, but it wasn't a topic on the table.
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You realize the article here is talking about sub-contractors. If you work directly for Amazon, the van probably collects all the stats and there is no way to disable the monitoring, so you are forced to drive safely. Unionizing Amazon does absolutely nothing to the subcontractors who try to circumvent Amazon monitoring.
Slow AI (Score:3)
Re:Slow AI (Score:4, Insightful)
They have a goal, which is to increase shareholder value.
That is the goal of a generic corporation in principal. In practice, the goal of many corporations have been subverted by executives to be increasing the executives' wealth.
They're a lot of rich people (Score:2)
Those Apps Are Bullshit (Score:5, Interesting)
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I'm also using the Belair Direct Automerit system and have had the exact same experience. Their hard braking detection is far, far too sensitive. I tried to ease off on the breaking to avoid getting dinged by it. And I got two traffic tickets for running a red light for my efforts. It's just not possible to brake in time for a red without setting offer their "hard braking" detection.
I continue to use the system because I have a short ~10 minute commute, so it doesn't have a lot of opportunity to get upset
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He canceled the program after that.
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Yeah, bullshit. They measure acceleration with accelerometers (the same ones that measure hard braking), not engine speed. If a wheel 'spun out when he tried to drive forward' his acceleration was 0. These things also look for patterns, not single events.
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I'm involved in usability research that partially covers such forms of car insurance as you describe. The problem you pointed out is not uncommon - many users complain that this actually leads to worse driving, because one keeps adjusting their driving style in an attempt to "make the program happy", which pushes them out of their well-established routine. The lack of a possibility to contest the system's verdicts is also a common source of dissatisfaction.
If you had a magic wand that could produce an excel
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Thanks for your elaborate feedback, I greatly appreciate it.
You might be interested in this paper http://www.jtle.net/uploadfile... [jtle.net] (I am a co-author). Table IV summarizes a list of recommendations for insurers, where R18 is related to worse driving, R16 is about giving users a way to challenge the results; R4 and R5 are about turning these programs into a coach that helps drivers get better (rather than maintain an unforgiving attitude, where a single deviation results in a "no soup for you!" verdict).
Our
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been there (Score:4, Interesting)
My first real job ever was a delivery job. The owner told me which roads to drive and what speed to go on them - he wanted me to drive 50% over the speed limit pretty much all the time.
Neal Stephenson should reboot Snow Crash (Score:2)
Instead of the Deliverator, delivering pizzas for the mob, Hiro Protagonist is an Amazon delivery truck guy, working (ultimately) for Jeff Bezos.
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Delivery jobs have always been thus (Score:4, Interesting)
Amazon is relatively sure that by subcontracting deliveries they have no liability here. I'm guessing there are more than a few ambulance chasers willing to test this at the slightest hint of a fender bender. Every single one of them has bookmarked and screenshot the Vice article.
Re:Delivery jobs have always been thus (Score:4, Insightful)
Honestly, Amazon would be better off just hiring actual independent contractors. Generic white box vans full of Amazon, Etsy shop, print shop, etc. packages being delivered by unshowered dudes wearing Army surplus fatigues screams "I am a true Independent Contractor!"
But they had to go and make it Amazon branded vans full of Amazon branded boxes driven by folks wearing Amazon branded uniforms. This "Two-Day Delivery 'Amazon Experience'" crap is going to come back to bite them.
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Honestly, Amazon would be better off just hiring actual independent contractors. Generic white box vans full of Amazon, Etsy shop, print shop, etc. packages being delivered by unshowered dudes wearing Army surplus fatigues screams "I am a true Independent Contractor!"
But they had to go and make it Amazon branded vans full of Amazon branded boxes driven by folks wearing Amazon branded uniforms. This "Two-Day Delivery 'Amazon Experience'" crap is going to come back to bite them.
Amazon already hires their warehouse staff/equipment, and their long-haul logistics staff/equipment, and parts of their delivery staff (Flex Drivers), and rolls out tech to help manage and orchestrate all of these things... and they're incorporating automation/robotics into the fray also... And you're arguing that they need to spend more HR efforts hiring even MORE delivery staff/equipment?!
Instead of hiring two hundred thousand ICs across all territories (and getting into the gig economy realm like uber
I think Mike Rowe addresses this semi-directly... (Score:1)
With his persistent advocacy of "Safety Third". The unintended side-effects of systems like this are that people who have to get a job done have completely different incentives from the people who want this sort of should-surfing.
https://mikerowe.com/2020/10/o... [mikerowe.com]
And we are all complicit in this... (Score:2)
I frequently berate drivers who speed up the tiny little lane I live on, our doors open right onto the road, there's cats, kids etc.
The max driving speed should be about 5mph, but I've seen them fly up the lane at 30mph - bat shit crazy.
This is a lane where two cars cannot pass, where the biggest delivery vehicle that can actually get up here, is a transit van. (not sure what those are called in the US).
But I know I'm complicit in all of this - the sheer contented comfort of getting pretty much anything del
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I don't see the problem with delivery, it's far more efficient than everyone driving to the city.
Mercenary subcontracting and general erosion of Christian morals are entirely orthogonal.
ironic how easily we are swayed. (Score:1)
A few months ago, there was a slew of fire-breathing posts talking about how Mentor was dangerous spyware. People on slashdot were talking about how evil Mentor was.
Now the media is equating disabling Mentor with "dangerous driving" which is false.
Slashdot is now full of posts talking about how the drivers are driving dangerously because the spyware is being turned off, buying the false premise of the article.
What DO we believe, exactly?
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very good questions...
Here's the first article that I was referring to:
https://yro.slashdot.org/story... [slashdot.org]
Comment removed (Score:3)
Get the order in writing. (Score:2)
Hiding evidence of a crime is a huge no no, legally.
As is firing somebody for refusing to do that.
Basically, it means you already lost before even going to trial.
THE 'NIOD FROM THE 90'S (Score:2)
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Every time the kids ask for Dominos, I tell them "Avoid the Noid!". Because the Noid lives at Dominos.
Also (Score:2)
This would also explain things like the lady on the neighborhood app who shared a doorbell video of her package being chucked out of the driver's window of the amazon van onto her porch.
Define "Reckless" (Score:2)
Have you driven in urban areas lately? People are less courteous, the roads are more congested, and everybody thinks they're in a NASCAR race.
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You obviously didn't read the story.
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Vice used to be about sneaking into Somalia and meeting with warlords. The last video from them I watched on Youtube, before I unsubbed, was some kids showing how to smoke their pot from carved up fruit.
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I learned that trick from an old man.
Nice to hear the younger generation are taking education seriously these days.
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"Turning off an app in an of itself doesn't encourage anything." You're wrong on that one. It encourages hiding the true state of things.
While turning off the app in and of itself doesn't encourage dangerious driving telling people to turn it off indicates that there is something to hide. More so failing to dicipline people for not having it on for the entire shift re-enforces the lack of transparency.
This is EXACTLY the same arguement about police body cameras. I appreciate the arguements people make ab
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The reporter is getting paid by some pro-Union entity to push this shit. And BizX/Slashdot is getting paid to repeat it. Literally this is what happens when "news" outlets have no other revenue stream.
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There exists an app that measures safe driving (hard braking, speeding, etc). You are told to turn it off and meet your quota. Now what could that possibly mean. Hrmmmm.
Purely by coincidence, I assure you, the drivers that continue to drive safely are "given an opportunity to find more suitable work".
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Amazon wants ass coverage, and a fast, cheap, non-union delivery system that offers them control without responsibility. "We told them they are REQUIRED to use Mentor, but they, the independent contractor, chose otherwise." is their out. Notice that they are not saying that independent contractors that fail to use Mentor will lose their contracts.
The message being sent is clear. Use Mentor for two hours while you are driving safely. Get your good driver score. Get your good driver bonus. Then log out
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OK. Simple question for you guys: IF AMAZON WANTS THIS WHY THE FUCK DID THEY CREATE THE MENTOR APP IN THE FIRST PLACE? Seriously, just be honest and come out an say it: you want Amazon to Unionize. Don't wrap it in fake bullshit. If you guys were honest I would respect you.
Re:More pro-Union hit piece (Score:4, Insightful)
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The same court argument applies if the app existed or didn't exist. The unspoken premise is that pressure from Amazon on their delivery partners causes reckless behavior. Amazon wouldn't bother creating an app or monitoring their drivers if they preferred them to be reckless. It just adds an extra step that someone can point to and say "hey Amazon wants us to turn off the app because they don't care".
The truth is there is a union fight right now, so some pro-union force paid vice.com for some hit piece. You
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Then they should have skipped the step and not bothered with the app since they are going to get sued and the same reason for it was turned off is going to be argued in court. First you guys complain about Amazon monitoring their drivers, now you guys say it is all fake. Which is it?
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This app allows them to drop into their contracts with these companies, in addition to the usual sorts of indemnifications, a clause requiring 100% use of the app by all of their drivers. While nothing is *ever* a guaranteed fix, this will help them deflect most claims from the outset. So yes, that is most definitely the purpose behind it.
Union wont keep the app on (Score:2)