FCC Chairman Tells Europe To Choose Between US or Chinese Communications Tech (ft.com) 146
FCC Chairman Brendan Carr has issued a stark ultimatum to European allies, telling them to choose between US and Chinese communications technology. In an interview with Financial Times, Carr urged "allied western democracies" to "focus on the real long-term bogey: the rise of the Chinese Communist party." The warning comes as European governments question Starlink's reliability after Washington threatened to switch off its services in Ukraine.
UK telecoms BT and Virgin Media O2 are currently trialing Starlink's satellite internet technology but haven't signed full agreements. "If you're concerned about Starlink, just wait for the CCP's version, then you'll be really worried," said Carr. Carr claimed Europe is "caught" between Washington and Beijing, with a "great divide" emerging between "CCP-aligned countries and others" in AI and satellite technology. He also accused the European Commission of "protectionism" and an "anti-American" attitude while suggesting Nokia and Ericsson should relocate manufacturing to the US to avoid Trump's import tariffs.
UK telecoms BT and Virgin Media O2 are currently trialing Starlink's satellite internet technology but haven't signed full agreements. "If you're concerned about Starlink, just wait for the CCP's version, then you'll be really worried," said Carr. Carr claimed Europe is "caught" between Washington and Beijing, with a "great divide" emerging between "CCP-aligned countries and others" in AI and satellite technology. He also accused the European Commission of "protectionism" and an "anti-American" attitude while suggesting Nokia and Ericsson should relocate manufacturing to the US to avoid Trump's import tariffs.
Smart choice of words (Score:5, Funny)
I can't imagine this having an effect opposite to the intended one.
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Yeah, one country is totalitarian, the other is run by people who are doing their best to make their country totalitarian. The only way Carr's remarks make sense is if you assume he knows the Republicans will fail.
Regardless, there is zero chance Europeans are going to trust America right now on... well, anything. And presenting a false dilemma isn't going to change that.
Re:Smart choice of words (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah, one country is totalitarian, the other is run by people who are doing their best to make their country totalitarian.
Yeah, but which one is which? /s
Re:Smart choice of words (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know, a tiny government holding the position of "we can deport anyone without due process to a work prison in another country" (and that is the position the government is holding in court even if they have not done it to a US Citizen yet) is still acting pretty totalitarian.
Authoritarians can exist and operate no matter the perceived size of the government, it's the actions, not size that make that true.
Re:Smart choice of words (Score:4, Informative)
At this point I have to raise the name Shamima Begum.
She was convinced to leave the UK as a 15-year-old to join ISIS in Syria as one of three teenage girls, once there they were "married" to IS males and used as brood mares for the cause. The other two girls died (I think in air strikes) but Shamima turned up in a refugee camp with a baby boy, her other two children having died.
The then Home Secretary Sajid Javid was trying to curry favour with the Daily Mail to get them to back his bid to lead the Tory party, he made a decision where children of first generation immigrants could have their citizenship revoked if they did something really naughty and had dual citizenship. Bangladesh stepped up to say she did not have citizenship rights and was a British subject, but the Tories then got either MI5 or MI6 to claim her return would endanger the United Kingdom. By then her child was long dead - pneumonia. What Sajid Javid did was only legal under international law (the UK is a signatory) if she really did also have Bangladeshi citizenship, but the courts have mostly backed the government.
Curiously, Sajid Javid is also a child of first generation immigrants so he could presumably be deported to Pakistan under the rule change he introduced, and he never did get to take over the Tory party. He stood down as an MP at the last election.
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Sajid Javid is a Cnut of the first water.
There I've said it.
Re:Smart choice of words (Score:4, Informative)
Well the court disagrees, if we are talking about Abrego Garcia but you ghouls will defend anything won't you.
NOEM v. ABREGO GARCIA [supremecourt.gov]
The Government’s argument, moreover, implies that it could deport and incarcerate any person, including U. S. citizens, without legal consequence, so long as it does so before a court can intervene. That view refutes itself.
Nevertheless, I agree with the Court’s order that the proper remedy is to provide Abrego Garcia with all the process to which he would have been entitled had he not been unlawfully removed to El Salvador. That means the Government must comply with its obligation to provide Abrego Garcia with “due process of law,” including notice and an opportunity to be heard, in any future proceedings.
Re: Smart choice of words (Score:2)
His immigration case was decided, appealed, and confirmed in immigration proceedings, not a criminal court, he wasn't convicted, he was to be deported, but he convinced a judge that "even though he said he wasn't in a gang, that he fears for his life from a (his words) rival gang because of a shop his mother ran in El Salvador" and the judge said, well, OK, the U.S. government can't deport you to El Salvador, but it can deport you".
He had an immigration trial, list the case, appealed, and lost again. Then h
Re:Smart choice of words (Score:4, Insightful)
It works by reducing the checks and balances that stop the leaders from doing whatever-the-fuck they feel like. Current example: Republican death camps.
Re: Smart choice of words (Score:2)
Current example: Republican death camps.
And by "current example" you mean you can give me the location of these "Republican death camps", right?
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A little over 40 miles east of San Salvador is one.
Re:Smart choice of words (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Smart choice of words (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Smart choice of words (Score:5, Insightful)
China: The government owns the corporations.
USA: The corporations own the government.
The effect of both is pretty much the same.
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How does that differ from 6 corporations owning the entire food chain? We like to think that allows competition but at that size, they start murdering one another or, same as countries, agree to put most of their differences on hold, and put limits on their conflict. (That is. a Geneva convention for market competition.) Yes, the USA gets a choice on what products to make and buy, so yes, not totalitarian. But almost everything else is irrelevant. It's why education, housing, healthcare and childcare ha
Re:Smart choice of words (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait, make it totalitarian by reducing the size, scope and authority of the Federal government? How's that supposed to work?
This isn't the first time. That's exactly how Pinochet's brutal dictatorship in Chile did things between the 1970s and the early 1990s. It was a mix of political totalitarianism, Libertarian economics, small government, and strong repression.
The trick is to reduce the government in everything except police repression. You end up with a small, efficient government that can disappear, maim, torture, and kil, anyone who opposes the Great Leader. Obey him unconditionally though, and you can have a relatively good life, for in such a system at least the Economy is functional.
For the record, several of the intellectuals behind Project 2025, particularly those linked to the Claremont Institute, such as Michael Anton, Curtis Yarvin, and Charles Haywood, have explicitly declared they want something along those lines for the US. They believe American democracy is dead, and this is how American culture can be saved from dissolution.
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You're also wrong about it bearing any similarity with the US or American Conservatism.
I provided the names. Now you Google them.
Hint: the key expression is "Red Caesarism". You'd come across it as you read, but looking for it directly will put you on the fast track.
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My, such a high horse to fall from. No matter, in a few months you'll notice their effect regardless.
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since the 90s.
Meaning since after Pinochet's dictatorship.
If you're really looking for a dictatorship model that leads to economic prosperity on a continuous basis, China's post-Maoist ideology, "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" (which would benefit tremendously from having a shorter name) is the most succesfull model to date.
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First, a non-paywalled link: https://archive.ph/CrpI2 [archive.ph]
“If you’re concerned about Starlink, just wait for the CCP’s version”. Isn't it just the best sales pitch, the competing offer is twice as bad as we are...
What's he trying to do? (Score:1)
Drive Europe into Xi's welcoming hands?
"Never pay the Dane-geld."
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No, but maybe the Swedish Kronur [ericsson.com], Finnish Euro [nokia.com], or German Euro [siemens.com], to name but three.
With all the tariffs, counter tariffs, and all the other uncertainty about privacy and how trustworthy other states really are, the EU would have to crazy to pay either US Dollars or Chinese Yuan at this point.
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My first thought was that Europe is dense enough that they probably don't really need satellite communication. They could use cell phone towers...possibly with a slight redesign. (OTOH, I'm not sure that's true of Sweden, Norway, and Finland.) Ships, however, and airplanes, would seem to benefit strongly from satellite positioning.
Question: How many places in Europe would triangulation from cell phone towers (possibly with a bit more signal strength) not work? And how many more towers would be required
Re:What's he trying to do? (Score:4, Informative)
Europe has their own satellite positioning system.
They're talking about satellite communications. Europe has a bunch of these [ioplus.nl] too, but none that target residential Internet the same way Starlink does. They've recognized that though, and are working on it.
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But is it worth it for Europe? Possibly for maintaining technical capability, but ... it looks to me as if the cost/benefit is shaky. Unless they're thinking of replacing the cell phone towers, and to me that looks like a bad move. (For one thing, an "unfortunate accident" can't take out as large a swath of communications.)
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Europe seems to be more concerned about military communications, at least right now. There are lots of advantages to having high bandwidth for that, and some for low latency, which is what you get with low-orbit satellites. To also get good coverage you need lots of them, although not as many as Starlink has.
Americans like to point out to Europeans how big the US is, but Europe is actually a bit bigger (10.5 million km^2 vs. 9.1) although the EU itself is only ~4.2, and 75% of the population lives in urban
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LEO internet constellation IRIS2 was initially supposed to be deployed in 2027 (but already delayed by at least 1 year) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Europe already has the Galileo positioning system, and mobile phones chips already receive its signal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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Third option? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is there no third option, European based tech?
I mean if I was in Europe and offered these "options," I'd look for homegrown too
Re:Third option? (Score:5, Interesting)
Bingo.
It's not as if Europe doesn't have the expertise. GSM (including W-CDMA and UMTS) are essentially European developed communications technologies, and are so good the world has standardized on them, even the US which was desperately trying to use Qualcomm's crap for decades because NIH and "cheap". Europe has plenty of experience launching satellites though I'd suggest the current management of the ESA needs a shake-up. At worst one could argue it doesn't have state of the art fabs... but neither does the US.
What exactly is it that Carr thinks means Europe has to grab a non-European technology here for its communications infrastructure?
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What exactly is it that Carr thinks means Europe has to grab a non-European technology here for its communications infrastructure?
Because the position of Carr and the admin is that the US and EU are not really allied the way they were say, 6 months ago when this is an easy choice for the EU. Why buy from China or spend years to build out homegrown tech when the US has solutions ready to go and the US is a strong ally that can be depended on. Or both groups could engage in a joint effort to build out communications tech as a strong alternative to China.
Now the calculus is entirely different and that is for no good reason is the frustr
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Carr isn't talking about a new thing. Remember when the US started pulling Huawei hardware from cell towers and such? So did the EU. Carr is saying it's time to decide if China is going to control EU telecoms, or if they will stick to the traditiona
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The US does have one state of the art fab, though it's operated by TSMC. They say they have yields up (have for months actually) and it's also reputed that the price is almost as low as in Taiwan.
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GSM was developed in Europe, but W-CDMA (the radio layer for UMTS) was based on Qualcomm CDMA with input from NTT. It was American technology steered to meet the demands of a Japanese company.
Re: Third option? (Score:1)
Telesat is from Canada. Probably not a coincidence that their stock is outperforming NASDAQ by a lot today.
There are also a few from Europe - SES, Intelsat, Eutelsat, Arquiva... There's a list here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
There's also a new one that's not on the list, from a smaller country... Maybe one of the baltics, but my memory is failing me right now.
Yes, but... (Score:2)
Yes, but...
Europe is pretty dense, and there are lots of cell phone towers, and triangulation from cell phone towers is a thing.
Perhaps it would be cheaper to try a different approach, with a few additional cell phone towers, and boosting the strength of some of them.
It's an old technology, but it's generally quite effective, and it doesn't require maintaining a space program, and it's immune to Kessler syndrome.
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And hasn't Trump has been insisting EU stand on its own security feet for quite some years now? Can't have it both ways.
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Europe has a bunch of satellite communication systems. None quite as big as Starlink, but nobody has anything quite as big as Starlink. They're working on it though.
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No need to match Space X's lauch prices, they launch European satellites all the time. What you can't beat (currently) is the price SpaceX charges themselves, but if they turn out to be an unreliable provider then you don't really have to.
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An if I were a European country, I'd object to being called an ally of the U.S. and tell the FCC chairman where to stuff it. la Presidenta saw to it that the U.S. no longer has allies.
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On average in terms of technology pacing:
China and the US jockey for the #1 spot (so they go back and forth between 1 and 2).
Number 3 tends to be Europe (on average they are about 2-3 years behind the curve).
Number 4 tends to be Australia/NZ (on average they are about 5-7 years behind the curve).
Number 5 tends to Russia and the various "stans" (on average they are about 4-6 behind the curve, but because of political and military aspirations
Re: Fourth option? (Score:2)
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The EU is indeed working on building its own satellite internet system. It's called IRIS2 and is scheduled for deployment in 2029.
When the US threatens to invate neighbors... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yea, Trump making threats about the USA taking over Canada and Greenland makes the USA seem like such a great ally with the trade war that is entirely caused by Donald Trump and no one else. So, Europe should side with the USA because....Trump is the bigger threat to world peace?
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That would actually seem like a reasonable assessment from Trump's perspective. He's a transactional bully who understands the stick but not the carrot, and is blissfully unaware of the effectiveness of those items or that others can use them too.
So yeah, Trump wants everyone to capitulate because he is king of the most powerful military in the world. Why wouldn't they?
In short, he's a petulant malicious dumbass.
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With the exception of Putin where it's exactly the opposite.
With Putin it's always only carrots and reach arounds but never the stick.
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What else could calling Canada the "51st state" imply? He never just says the thing he means, he's a bit of a coward like that but he'll imply and leave the option open, because he's a bad negotiator, you don't negotiate international treaties like a used car and even then this is someone walking into the dealership and pulling a gun on the salesman and then talking about undercoating, you wouldn't do business with a person like that even if they had money for a sale.
In Saturday's interview, Trump allowed t
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You think you're being clever and 'winning' right now, but you're not.
You're trying to run cover for a fascist. Two Nazis are at a table and Sabbede sits down...
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How about you just fuck right off, I'm not going to play your stupid game?
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Just couldn't stay away. "I'm not going to waste my time", the fascist apologist says, wasting their time.
No lie too small for you, is there?
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or google this: President Donald Trump said the U.S. will "go as far as we have to go" to get control of Greenland
Re: When the US threatens to invate neighbors... (Score:2)
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Also, you don't know a threat when you hear one.
Easy choice (Score:5, Funny)
Chinese have 220v and compatible wall plugs.
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Why do residential wall plugs matter? Telco stuff runs on DC.
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Anonymous Coward with a shitty attitude has clearly never seen commercial telco equipment. I got news for you buddy. No matter how many people retire, you'll still be an unemployable moron.
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I've seen commercial telco equipment. It ran on 48V. What does it matter if the power distribution system typically brings 110VAC or 220VAC to the wall? For that matter, what is the relevance of the capacity of the typical outlet in a commercial context, where whatever kind of service is needed will be installed?
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i know how that decision will go (Score:1)
Hybrid third option (Score:5, Interesting)
Design it in the EU, have it built in China, audit the hardware and firmware upon import - assuming this is less expensive than going 100% home-grown.
This keeps trade open with China and keeps the EU secure.
Right now, I'd say it's more important to wean off of Windows and iOS as quickly as possible. It is insane that the entire Western business world is one Trump order to an American company from being compromised.
I don't like Chinese politics, but they're stable and (as long as you're not in Taiwan), relatively safe. The US is neither.
Re:Hybrid third option (Score:4, Interesting)
It is insane that the entire Western business world is one Trump order to an American company from being compromised... I don't like Chinese politics, but they're stable and (as long as you're not in Taiwan), relatively safe. The US is neither.
Hear hear! At least China is "the devil we know". Trump is a NEW devil at the head of what is now effectively a NEW COUNTRY in which all bets are off. I think the US will soon understand that its president is no longer "The Leader of the Free World", and that most of its cachet has been flushed down the toilet, never to be recovered.
America still has the power of military might, but any other power it has in the rest of the world is rapidly dwindling. I don't think the current dictator and his cadre of wannabes have even the inkling of a clue about how much of America's power is 'soft power'. Nor do they realize that such power is largely consensual and may easily be withdrawn.
Additionally, unless the country undergoes a MAJOR change of course very soon, I predict that within five years the US Dollar will no longer be the world's reserve currency. At that point, The USA will be just another Russia. That last bit scares me; I'm Canadian, and I don't look forward to my country playing a Ukraine-like role in the next "whims of a dictator" annexation attempt.
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> I'm Canadian, and I don't look forward to my country playing a Ukraine-like role in the next "whims of a dictator" annexation attempt.
I think what I've learned from Ukraine is I'd let the Americans come in, and THEN kill them. Direct resistance would be a slaughter, the US military is not the Russian military... but the Americans have proven over and over again that they can't hold hostile territory. I have children and they will NOT grow up in an American fascist vassal state.
It'd probably be more
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Don't have kids of my own - I'm both sad and thankful about that - but I second everything else you said. I'm perhaps less surprised than you about Trump though. I fully expected things to go this far under him - I just expected it to take 2 or 3 years instead of that many months.
Regarding Maple MAGAs - how about Traitor Smith going Stateside and bending the knee to the Orange One, asking him to lay off on the 51st rhetoric because it was undermining PeePee's chances? Danny Girl is clearly a treacherous sna
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>I'm no fan of the damage the Liberals did to our country under Trudeau. He needed to go, and our government needs to get back to economic reality and stop relying on 'wishcraft'
I think a lot of that is perception based on American propaganda - they own a lot of our media and they were trying to 'Hillary' Trudeau from the start.
The immigration thing is an issue (they definitely opened the gates too wide), but there's no will from the population to face it. You slow immigration, you kill the economy, bec
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In the last American election, it was evil to vote Trump. In Canada's next election, it's evil to vote for Poilievre. If you have any empathy for your fellow citizens, you're going to vote for Carney and the Liberals. We've looked south and seen the truth of this, it'll be extremely sad if we make the same mistake anyway.
I've already voted. I found out by accident that Elections Canada starts accepting votes as soon as they can get set up after the writ drops. We voted so early that we actually had to write in the name of our Liberal candidate.
Up until today I was entirely with you on the evil of voting Poilievre. I still think he's a disgusting sycophant, misogynist, opportunist, and Trump fanboi. But I'm starting to have misgivings about the vote I already cast.
I hate the thought that I might be a sucker for grand conspir
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A necessity China was confronted with during Trump's first term. I think I read that they were developing some Linux (or bsd) based OS which would be specifically Chinese, but have no idea how that panned out. Maybe the EU should ask China how they went about it and what the results were.
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China is now on their second or third China-specific Linux distribution. I have tried zero of them, though, so I don't have an educated opinion about how good they are or aren't. However, you cannot have a purely China-specific Linux, because the kernel is not China-specific.
They could presumably have a Chinese fork of the kernel, and be either maintaining a patchset to make it that or backporting features from mainline, but either thing would be a lot of extra work that probably isn't necessary.
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Design it in the EU, have it built in China, audit the hardware and firmware upon import - assuming this is less expensive than going 100% home-grown.
This keeps trade open with China and keeps the EU secure.
Sound plan. I would have China ship them with factory test firmware and then reflash it, via hardware, with locally built firmware.
Right now, I'd say it's more important to wean off of Windows and iOS as quickly as possible. It is insane that the entire Western business world is one Trump order to an American company from being compromised.
A really good idea, but good luck stopping Windows usage. Maybe Europe should a serious investment in ReactOS for those who can't or won't use Linux. The other risk is using USA sourced cloud services. In principle that should be the easiest change, but an important one.
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Two points:
China is relatively safe for other countries that aren't Taiwan.
If you're referring to the US with your last comment... yeah, you're lost and there's no point engaging with you, because the US is now an authoritarian nightmare. As the rot spreads, more Americans will notice.
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You are a fucking moron.
Now, for everyone else who isn't:
The US is black-bagging people to what should be assumed to be death camps, based on race and possibly the whims of Trump. Who is also attacking lawyers, judges, and academia any time he feels people might be working against his will. There is no law in the US any longer, because Trump supercedes it all and has his jack-booted thugs already on the ground carrying out his wishes.
The US is now a fascist authoritarian state, and working on being a par
For EU Russia is the problem not China... (Score:5, Interesting)
I think hundreds of thousands dead and millions expelled from their houses right on the EU borders are much bigger problem for Europe than China.
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Russia and China are sort-of allies. I mean, real allies don't sell their allies a bunch of shitty tires they know will fail and leave them bogged down in the mud, but other than that. China has not slowed down trade with Russia, in fact they have increased it. You cannot talk about the Russia problem without also thinking about China.
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The thing is, the Western world has painted China as the antagonist, often at the behest of the US. Tariffs on Chinese cars? Done. Removing Huawei from our networks (t
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Bit of a chicken and egg problem. In an ideal world, China would let Russia fail, and Europe would start dealing with China as a reliable commercial partner (and dare I say it, ally). From what I've seen of the CCP, they're a totalitarian but rational actor; they have to know that the EU market is way more attractive than the Russian market.
That makes sense, sure. But I have an alternate proposal: China wants to rule the world like every superpower, they're just not impatient about it, and helping Russia to get their people killed off and also weaken Europe is good for China on every level.
Eutelsat (Score:4, Interesting)
All of this is trivially predictable self inflicted consequence of Trump administrations incoherent, abusive and inane foreign policy. Europeans are looking to replace Starlink with Eutelsat et el. Nobody cares about the musings of the FCC chair.
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After watching Musk threaten Ukraine with turning off Starlink, which would have crippled their ability to fight Russian invaders, who in their right mind would trust either the US or China with their telecommunications satellites? Canada, which was once a world leader in the field, along with the UK and Europe, need their own solution.
Rock, or Hard Place? (Score:2)
EU: "Let's see, the crazy orange baby OR the commie orange bear?"
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Choosing between the Devel and the Beelzebub (Score:1)
Choose which backdoors they want. (Score:3)
"Hey Europe, which snooping spying camel nose do you want under your tent? Ours or theirs?"
The proper response for Europe should be "None of the above".
Summary and headline are both wrong. (Score:1)
Protectionism??? (Score:5, Interesting)
He also accused the European Commission of "protectionism"
The hypocrisy in that is hard to comprehend. Is he truly unable to see the contradiction in accusing others of protectionism while aggressively pursing your own ultra-protectionist policies? Does he not realize it makes him look like an idiot? Does he just not care? Does he assume other people are so deep in the cult, they can't see the contradiction?
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LOL (Score:2)
Is FCC LARPing neither Nokia nor Ericcson are a thing?
Easy choice.. (Score:2)
Obviously Chinese (Score:2)
Much better value for money, same backdoors for spying, although the backdoors are far better secured than the US ones. CISCO regularly has backdoors (camouflaged as "bugs") found in their products. For Chinese stuff, that is a lot more rare.
Hobson's choice ultimatum (Score:2)
"Allied western democracies" (Score:2)
dilemma? (Score:2)
"focus on the real long-term bogey: the rise of the Chinese Communist party" or "focus on the real long-term bogey: the rise of the American Fascist party"? An increasing number of Europeans are more worried about the later these days.
Who can track you and what you’re doing. (Score:2)
Hey Europe , we can’t spy on you if you use Chinese tech.
Please change your communication service provider.
This is why the USA wants TikTok in the U.S.!