Amazon Sellers Plagued by Surge in Scam Returns (wsj.com) 107
An anonymous reader shares a report: Amazon has built one of the world's most efficient delivery systems. Yet people regularly ship junk back to sellers and claim they are returns, often with little to no penalty, merchants say. Amazon has long believed in a system based on pleasing customers above all, including easy returns, but that ethos has hurt the merchants who make up most of its online sales.
Return theft represents one sore point in what has become an often contentious relationship between Amazon and its independent sellers. The Federal Trade Commission's continuing lawsuit against the retail giant deals in part with how the company treats its sellers. Amazon is also facing new competition for its merchants from other e-commerce firms.
The National Retail Federation says return fraud has become a "major issue for our industry." About 13.7% of returns in 2023 were fraudulent, accounting for $101 billion in overall losses for retailers, the federation said. As more consumers have adopted online shopping, return theft has become prevalent and Amazon hasn't done enough to stop it, sellers said.
Return theft represents one sore point in what has become an often contentious relationship between Amazon and its independent sellers. The Federal Trade Commission's continuing lawsuit against the retail giant deals in part with how the company treats its sellers. Amazon is also facing new competition for its merchants from other e-commerce firms.
The National Retail Federation says return fraud has become a "major issue for our industry." About 13.7% of returns in 2023 were fraudulent, accounting for $101 billion in overall losses for retailers, the federation said. As more consumers have adopted online shopping, return theft has become prevalent and Amazon hasn't done enough to stop it, sellers said.
Hurts the customers too (Score:5, Insightful)
that ethos has hurt the merchants who make up most of its online sales
It also hurts the customers too, who receive used/broken items, pay more in markup (my company subsidizes Amazon losses by re-calibrating pricing every quarter to reflect scum buyers), and just a loss in quality/selection when brands decide it isn't even worth it.
Amazon's customer-centric customer service is a double edged sword. While it got more people to trust shopping online, it also made it exponentially easier for shitty humans to be a bigger drain on the rest of society.
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I've had mixed experiences with the "Amazon Warehouse" (presumably used and returned items), as well as 3rd party reseller items.
Most of the time, they're fine.
Occasionally, I encounter evidence of outright fraud, probably facilitated by complete lack of inspection. This unfortunately is much more prevalent with 3rd parties - I get the feeling they're buying shit from Amazon on pallets and then just shipping them right back into the Amazon product stream. Things like perishable items where the expiration
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Used, returned, and of course box damaged during shipping. The latter can yield some good deals. Refurbs as well if the manufacturer does them.
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Long ago I was in the computer business, and I can tell you that a lot of sellers would just feed broken stuff back into the system a few times before even considering writing it off.
Partly it was because there was a chance that the customer who returned it the first time just didn't know what they were doing and couldn't make it work, or lied because they didn't want it anymore. Mostly though it was just about hoping that eventually one customer would not return it even if it was broken. Maybe they would f
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Amazon's customer-centric customer service is a double edged sword.
It's kinda customer centric in that they use this as a reason that they can completely fill their store with counterfeit, dangerous and outright illegal goods on the grounds that the customer can return them.
Also, we know Amazon's logistics is the best ever because they keep on telling us. They wouldn't lie or be deluded of course.
One of their main "innovations" is to, like many companies, make good use and abuse of the gig economy, so they
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And I buy a lot of stuff, both low and high dollar items.
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The package I found stuffed in the flower pot was fine. The flowers they mashed were not. Also no one nicked it fortunately, but they didn't even ring the bell. I was in but it was out there for hours.
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Ring doorbells, and probably others as well have a GREAT solution for sneaky Ninja stealth package deliverers - their motion detection features are excellent for detecting clandestine drop-offs and alerting you of the fact.
This is especially useful if you're in a high traffic or crime area, you'll know the moment it was dropped off. And the moment it was stolen, if you didn't get to it in time! :) Plus, if you're lucky, a video of the thief's face.
Otherwise, there are security drop-off lockers like olde t
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Could be, but if they do kick the package over the hedge sand then scarper at high speed I suspect they won't take the time to put it in a box and lock it.
It probably depends on the specific region. I suspect in London due to the size, turns always plenty of business so they can easily carefully under staff it so it's stretched but feasible (plus the cost of living is higher so contractors need more jobs).
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I thought yeeting was throwing yourself, so that you couldn't yeet and book at the same time. I just learn slang from context, and I've only seen yeet in the context of "yeet himself, and "yeet itself", etc. As in gaming - "the dragon yeeted itself off the cliff but I got credit". Or the math youtuber saying "if you yeet yourself, as the kids say"
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The guy's got a 6-digit UID. That puts him in his 40s, or maybe late 30s. Teenagers are never going to think he's cool no matter how hard he tries. And the trying... to be cool to them or to fit in with them with things like "yeet," puts him somewhere between pathetic and creepy. Urbandictionary IS a thing, of course. But I'd posit that it's better to just communicate clearly versus expecting other adults to look it up and join in his sad attempt to still fit in with the kids.
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As usual, fuckers ruin everything.
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This happened to us as well. We ordered a pretty high-value professional grade piece of sound hardware costing several hundred dollars, and what came in the box was a cheap USB battery pack. It was the correct box, so it was either scammed on the return, or an employee / shipping person swapped it out.
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How about the more obvious, it makes it harder for legitimate buyers to return items? You might think Amazon is customer centric, but there are lots of customers that have problems returning legitimate products because Amazon also has to protect themselves from scammers.
There are many algorithms out there, and yes, they also deal with return fraud. While most legitimate returns don't trigger the algorithm, there's always a chance of "what if" you happen to get a defective product, and Amazon thinks you're t
Why Amazon Is Awash In Crap (Score:2)
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It's not only amazon. Newegg now also has a "marketplace" for random sellers to sell you counterfeit shit. So does Digikey. I've slashed Newegg off my list and Digikey too.
Every fucking retailer is turning their site into a "marketplace" full of trash.
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Newegg burned me but it wasn't on counterfeit but wrong item. Sent back and got charged on the return. Got correct item from manufacturer recommended supplier.
Garbage out, garbage in (Score:3)
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High quality? What about just doing what they claim?
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Wait, you can actually decipher the gibberish that constitutes what they claim?
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It can be baffling too, there's no curating involved. So I have noticed that if I go to Lowes to look for electric lawnmowers that I saw 6 varieties, 2 of which matched what I wanted. Head to Amazon and there'd be 30 varieties, most of which were mostlu indentical to each other. So then I look at customer reviews and none of the reviews compared manufacturer A to manufacturer B, it was all "it did the job I was so happy that fainted, 5 stars!" or "I couldn't figure out how to plug it in, 1 star." You ca
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Review blending. One of the reasons when I review I mention things like model numbers so people will know what I'm talking about.
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Amazon might have a solid return policy, but they do a lousy job of making sure the products they sell are high quality.
What are you talking about? There's plenty of high quality items on Amazon. The problem is *you* (the royal you, i.e. everyone) who shops price conscious above all else.
Now if you're talking about unsafe or defective products then sure, but the reality is Amazon's quality on offer is a reflection of market demand and nothing more.
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So much this. There's a lot of Chinese garbage on Amazon that is only designed to last slightly past the return period, if even that. I made the mistake of not following Reddit's advice on not buying a no-name EVSE from Amazon and, you guessed it, it died after only a few months. Thankfully, Amazon did take it back with a restocking fee.
If they tighten up their return policy, they're seriously going to need to up their quality game.
Supplier focus (Score:2)
Amazon should give score/ranking priority to established vendors. I realize this will slow startups, but it also slows riff-raff. A company with a solid hard-earned reputation is less likely to squander it all for short-term gains.
Also resell-based vendors may form who vet products from small/new suppliers. Thus, startups can still sell products via these established resellers, who hopefully vet such wares to protect their reputation.
Industry-wide problem for Amazon to fix? (Score:3)
I'm going by the blurb here, since I can't read the paywalled article. If this is an industry-wide problem, why is it (only) Amazon's job to fix? What role should the merchants who use Amazon as the marketing and delivery platform have here? What about other companies that sell on-line, independent of Amazon? Do they have the same problems?
Now I'm sure Amazon has responsibilities to merchants where they act as the delivery agent (in both directions). Of course, when something costs the merchants (including Amazon itself), those costs get passed onto consumers. But that's "cost of doing business," but if some small number of customers are disproportionately responsible for (fraudulent) returns, maybe that's where the actions should focus. I dunno, but the summary of the article raises many more questions than it answers.
(And after listening to Yet Another "investigative reporting" piece that blames an industry in Corporate America for a whole bunch of problems, some of which are definitely caused by industry practices, while others are ramifications of the business or of -public- policy, I'm getting pretty sick of the trope "corporate America is to blame, no matter what the problem." This piece was about probably bad practices in food processing, but are we ready to shut down "Big Agriculture" and pretend we have an alternative way to feed millions, if not billions of people?)
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Direct sales from our website, 1.8% successful fraudulent transactions.
EBay sales, 3.1%
Amazon Marketplace 11%
At least with eBay
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>The situation is that Amazon automatically refund ‘buyers’ in almost every case.
Yep. I just returned an item and soon after it registered with Canada Post (rather than actually arriving at returns) I got the refund notice. If I was dishonest the seller would have had no control over that.
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Why are the only options shutting down "Big Agriculture" or letting bad practices persist?
We've spent the better part of 40 years deregulating in this country to very predictable results. When profit is the incentive it is natural that businesses will do whatever they can to increase said profits. If a company is publicly traded and profits don't increase year over year the stock tanks rather than being seen a stable company.
You need to face it, corporations with the same legal standing as people is indeed
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When profit is the incentive it is natural that businesses will do whatever they can to increase said profits.
The flip side of that is that we, the consumers, have become very price driven. If momandpop.com sell widget for $40, and Amazon has it for $30, everybody is going to buy it from Amazon, even thought we all know it would probably be better for society if we bought from momandpop.com.
Re: Industry-wide problem for Amazon to fix? (Score:2)
If I buy from Amazon it's because I think I might have to return an item. I look at other resellers and buy elsewhere if the price is comparable. I just ordered some R/C tires from eBay, they were actually cheaper there. But if they are defective, I can trust Pro-Line to replace them...
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I'm also more likely to buy it from Amazon at $40 than momandpop.com for $30 because I am more comfortable dealing with Amazon and its return policy.
Price isn't everything.
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I sometimes buy from momandpop if they have a real store I can go to and visit and have a real look at the item instead of relying on the misleading photos online. At that point if I like it I'm going to buy it there. Why go home, look up my password, deal with the shit that is Amazon, just to save $10? I'm a big cheapskate and I like to have bargains, but still the convenience of real stores is nice.
I go to amazon when I can't find the product elsewhere - replacement reels for lawn edgers, gotta get 6 at
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You have to look up passwords???
As for mom and pop...there are not many such stores that have what I am looking for anyway. Honestly, I don't buy that much anymore. The stuff I do buy tends to be commodity, specialized, or high-end. None of which seem to be well-suited for mom and pop type stores. Plus, those stores are hard to find anymore anyway.
I don't buy any clothes, but I'll buy them on Amazon. I usually get the fit right. Reviewing my orders, I see:
1). T-shirt for my 8 year old.
2). Swim trunks for
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If you keep all online passwords different from each other, then yes looking them up is necessary because there are too many to remember. I don't use password helpers, they're a sing point of failure. Encrypted file is ok though, encrypted file on external usb drive is better.
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I use the password helper built into my phone. If it gets hacked, that's just how it goes I guess. Has never been an issue so far (;
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What if you lose the phone? Do you have backups you can access easily? Do you trust the phone?
Ie, stuff with actual money I don't want to trust to an online device, including amazon since my credit card is there (for a few days until the product arrives and I remove it from remembered payment methods). For fluff accounts, like forums and such, then I don't mind if there's a password helper.
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What if you lose the phone?
what if I do? I'll buy a new one.
Do you have backups you can access easily?
Yes.
Do you trust the phone?
yes
Ie, stuff with actual money I don't want to trust to an online device, including amazon since my credit card is there (for a few days until the product arrives and I remove it from remembered payment methods). For fluff accounts, like forums and such, then I don't mind if there's a password helper.
I'm not responsible fraudulent charges on my credit card. Don't much card if someone else uses it to buy a lot of shit, I don't have to pay for it.
Besides all of that....I don't worry about getting hit by a meteorite either. Hell, I don't even worry about getting killed in a car accident, which seems much more likely.
I have real problems to worry about. I don't have time to worry about the low possibility, low consequence stuff. I've never lost my phone. My phone ha
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Amazon is the dominate player. And since nobody above them (the government? IDK) is going to solve this problem for the industry, we're looking at what Amazon does to figure out how this is going to play out overall.
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Alternate source (MSN) [msn.com]
Why not use AI? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Why not use AI? (Score:5, Funny)
The whole AI crap reminds me of an old Soviet joke.
At an invention exhibit, the great Soviet automation combine presents a potato peeling machine. Comrade factory head presents machina to Dear Comrade Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev. He throws in potato into funnel, machina rattles and hums and only a few seconds later, peeled potato is thrown out other hole in machine.
Dear Comrade Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev is ecstatic and grabs a bag of potato and pours it into machina. Machina rattles and hums, then door opens and out comes old Vietnamese woman, complaining "Hey! Not that many, me alone this week!"
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I don't have mod points but I enjoyed that joke. Thanks, good one!
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Courtesy of Julia Ioffe: What's something that doesn't fit in your ass and doesn't buzz? A Soviet made ass buzzer.
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You absolutely win this one.
I cannot top that. It's SO damn accurate, this cannot be one-upped.
They created a system of commerce... (Score:2, Troll)
Amazon is a recidivist. Here's their rap sheet: https://violationtracker.goodj... [goodjobsfirst.org]
They've paid $80 million in fines for wage theft. Amazon is one of the biggest thieves America has ever seen and they expect us to care that someone picked their poc
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Scammers Paradise (Score:5, Informative)
After about a year of crazy losses on Amazon we gave up. Amazon don’t care that we left, they have an endless supply of gullible new sellers to take our place.
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Yeah, I've reported comment scams before to no avail. While I still shop a lot at Amazon, I just avoid third party sellers if possible. Any vendor with a Chinese name or Chinglish text gets automatically dismissed.
Return theft, or scamming sellers? (Score:5, Interesting)
No doubt both sellers, if questioned by Amazon, would try to accuse me of "refund theft". How to prove it one way or the other? If Amazon starts siding with sellers in these situations there are going to be a lot of angry customers.
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There needs to be a proper evaluation of probability where a customer
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I refuse to buy anything on Amazon unless it's sold directly by Amazon. I order stuff monthly for years and have yet to have an issue.
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Yeah, pretty much that. I also downgrade my expectation of quality if there's no brand name or the brand name looks suspicious. If I buy a box of pencils made/sold by YQSHLO, I may be rewarded with real lead!
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It's almost to the point where you have to livestream yourself opening amazon packages.
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Whats to say the buyer didn't already open, switch it, reseal then film to open it?
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I bought an AirPods Pro, received a *case* instead.
Returned by Amazon denied my return since I didn't send back what I had ordered.
Tried to reverse the charge on my Amazon credit card, Amazon denied it and refused to reverse the charge.
So I was just out of luck on that one. However since then I buy pretty much anywhere but Amazon if at all possible, even if I pay more. And I cancelled Prime. In the end I guess it was a cheap way to learn the lesson you cannot trust Amazon in any way.
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I ordered two HDMI cables recently that were fulfilled by Amazon. In the Amazon-branded box that arrived were 16 clear bags, each of which contained a 10-pack of 6" ethernet cables. Being that 160x 6" ethernet cables was not what I ordered, I initiated a return, Amazon immediately shipped the HDMI cables, and all seemed well. It didn't appear to be fraud, just a case of Amazon slapping the wrong label on someone else's box or packing mine with the wrong items.
Then a few weeks later I was charged again for t
bad for sellers, bad for buyers, who is it for? (Score:5, Insightful)
Amazon is bad for sellers. Amazon is bad for buyers. Amazon only helps Amazon. Avoid Amazon.
Re:bad for sellers, bad for buyers, who is it for? (Score:4, Funny)
Are you suggesting people should not buy from Amazon? Do you realize how complicated that process would be? It's unimaginable someone would go through all those steps to not buy something from them.
For those wondering, yes, that is sarcasm.
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Amazon used to be better when it just sold books. You can trust the pictures of the books, you can trust the snippets of text that they show. There weren't 27 varieties of the same book from different publishers that you had to decide between, there weren't customer reviews saying "I got three paper cuts trying to read this, one star!" The bad part when the only sold books though is that they failed to collect sales tax so that they could undercut brick and mortor stores and drive them out of business an
Simple solution (Score:2)
If these sellers are upset about all the fake returns all they need to do is open a brick and mortar store to sell their products. That way they can verify every return at the moment it comes in before offering a refund, exchange, or credit.
Scamazon (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure what someone did was order both the expensive radio and a cheap one that at a quick glance looked pretty similar to the expensive one. They kept the expensive one, and put the cheap one in the box for the expensive one and returned it for the $1200. So they ended up paying the price of the cheap one, but got the expensive one.
We order supplies and parts from Amazon at work. Occasionally we do end up ordering some more expensive items off Amazon. On more than one occasion, we open it up to find a box full of rocks, a baggie of lead weights, or other worthless trash.
I've all but stopped ordering from Amazon. You just can't be sure that what you're getting is a legitimate item, or a counterfeit. Then when you get a box of rocks, or a cheap version of something in an expensive product's box, you have to go through the hassle of returning it and waiting for another one to ship. If any of the sellers were to question me why I'm sending back a box of rocks, I have no way of proving that that's what I received, and that I'm not the one scamming the seller. So I only order from Amazon when I absolutely have to any more. I'll pay a few dollars more to buy elsewhere and know that I'm getting is the real deal.
The video that Louis Rossman did a little while back where he was able to push 8 or 10A of current through a 2A knockoff brand fuse that he got off of Amazon really doesn't instill a ton of confidence in the quality of what you get from buying off Amazon.
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1. Amazon places returned items back into fulfilled by Amazon stock without proper checking.
2. Co-mingled stock results in the same item from multiple sellers being put into the same stock, so you are not necessarily getting a product supplied by the seller, but the first one to hand from the stock. Stock is not properly checked, so one bad seller can send in fake items to FBA.
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The local Fry's used to have this reputation - they'd accept just about any return (except software) and then hastily shrink wrap it and put it back on the shelves. Once I got a hard drive there, opened it up at home, and the original shrink wrap had been rolled into a tight ball and shoved into a corner by the original buyer...
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"The video that Louis Rossman did a little while back where he was able to push 8 or 10A of current through a 2A knockoff brand fuse that he got off of Amazon really doesn't instill a ton of confidence in the quality of what you get from buying off Amazon." - Thank goodness he did that video. I had watched that video one week before I had to replace a side mirror on my car. During the process I blew a 10A fuse (I had to cut the wiring to the mirror but didn't disconnect the battery, stupid yes). About 2 yea
Re:Scamazon (Score:5, Funny)
I tried testing all the fuses I got from Amazon but that turned out to be a bad idea.
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At least you got rid of them all.
Re: Scamazon (Score:2)
Once I bought a PCI UW-SCSI card from Fry's and when I opened the box I found an ISA SCSI card...
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For valuable goods I've started filming myself opening boxes so that I have proof for law enforcement, credit card companies, or the vendor if I need to demonstrate that I did not receive what I ordered. Someone may try to contest it, but at least it gives me something.
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Fool me once, shame on you....
Alternate source ... (Score:2)
MSN [msn.com]
It's more broken for Amazon's resellers though.... (Score:3)
I mean, when Amazon is selling its own products directly from its warehouses, as it used to do almost exclusively in the "old days"? (Remember "Amazon Auctions", anyone? That was where you went to sell on Amazon back then, in most cases. It was separate from what Amazon sold on the rest of the site.) Amazon could decide the benefits of no-questions asked returns outweighed the negatives from fraud losses. They could always just auction off palettes of of the returns and still potentially recoup a decent chunk of their initial costs. Alternately, they might even donate some of it and take the tax write-off? Who knows?
Today's resellers are expected to maintain these same standards of friendly returns for nearly any reason or excuse, and are getting hammered by the scammers. Many of them can't afford to absorb the losses. I know a few of these sellers personally. They're people like college students who made a business out of designing and making their own journals with pretty covers, or people with a small 3D printing business running out of their home, trying to cash in on some useful prints they created. If you fight back as a seller and refuse the refund? Amazon comes down on you hard, in short order, saying you can't do that and you lose your rights to sell on the platform.
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Looks like Walmart gets a new reseller then. Amazon screw-ups help grow their business.
Every single Amazon story. (Score:3)
Just don't use Amazon.
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Yep, I dropped my Prime subscription a couple of years ago, when it went up in price yet again, and I haven't looked back. I still buy stuff from them now and then, but I find that other sites and physical stores give me nearly everything I need, without the crap.
I have had the opposite problem (Score:2)
Amazon used to be great about taking returns, but not anymore.
I bought an Amazon Fire tablet for $90. It stopped working soon after I bought it. I tried to return it for a new one, but Amazon said they could only give me a refund. To buy a new one would cost $140. But I should not have to pay an extra $50 because Amazon sold me a defective item. Eventually, after months of going back and forth, Amazon gave me a $50 gift certificate.
I will be much less likely to do business with Amazon in the future.
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Domestic AliExpress (Score:1)
Seller here and we are ditching amazon (Score:3)
We've sold on Amazon for over 3 years now. We are in the process of shutting down that channel.
Our losses due to fraud simply make the channel not worth it.
* They buy products, pull parts out that they need, and return the rest. (ex: camera, steal battery, return camera)
* They buy our product, put some other similar but cheaper product in the box and return it.
* They use us as a warranty. Buy new one, return three year old one with different serial.
Our volume through our own warehouse and website is about 50% less. But without the fraud the profit is about the same.
We won't miss Amazon.
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Drop-shipping from manufacturer cuts down on warehouse needed and may be closer to customer.
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Drop-shipping from manufacturer cuts down on warehouse needed and may be closer to customer.
Are you saying that as "someone who heard it" or from experience because its simply not true.
Most manufacturers only have one location, in China.
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Funny how you argue "not true" when there are a lot of manufacturers in the US. You know a lot of eclipse glasses are made in the US.
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I am arguing with your statement because it is simply not true.
Most manufacturing is in China, or other overseas countries, certainly not closer to the customer. Very little is in the USA, where a mere 9% of worldwide goods are produced and if you look at those its simply things that make the most sense to produce here, like food.
Lastly, the vast majority of manufacturers do NOT offer drop-ship services. That's generally a service provided by wholesalers, who buy in bulk and ship on your behalf for a marku
Junk, returned (Score:2)
They're just finding out that their products are junk when they get returned. After all they've never seen the junk they're selling, since its shipped from China directly to Amazon's warehouses.
Now I know where I'm sending all those AOL CDs I've been hoarding. I was going to sell them on Ebay but I think scamming Amazon is the ethically sound solution.
Not difficult to address (Score:2)
This problem isn't difficult to address. It just requires that returns are more thoroughly verified is all. We ordered a professional grade piece of sound equipment, and in the box was a cheap USB battery pack. Anyone with the tiniest bit of common sense would have immediately known that the returned item was not the product indicated on the box.
There are already other comments on this story telling of products that had been swapped out by things like a stack of paper. Literally it would take the most minis
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Ive seen this so many times (Score:2)
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Sellers are Also committing fraud (Score:2)
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I've had numerous situations where noticeably open box items were sold as new. So sellers are likely also culprits when it comes to fraud on Amazon.
This is more than likely not the case. Most likely Amazon received a return and simply resold it as new. The seller has nothing to do with that.