
Japan Seeks Power To Turn Down Private Home Air Conditioners Remotely, Report Says (japantoday.com) 146
Japan Today reports: As reported by Japan's Nihon Keizai Shimbun, in a meeting on Nov 2, the Energy Conservation Subcommittee of the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry resolved to begin working group discussions with the aim of gaining the ability to remotely turn down privately owned air conditioner/heater units. The goal would be to decrease energy usage during expected power shortages, which the committee feels are a growing concern as Japan attempts to shift towards renewable energy sources such as solar power, where the amount generated can be affected by day-to-day climate, making it difficult to stabilize the amount of total power available. The ministry says that AC unit usage accounts for roughly 30 percent of household electricity consumption in Japan.
From a technical standpoint, the plan wouldn't be particularly difficult to implement. Japanese air conditioner units have long had remote controls, so external inputs aren't a problem, and many models now allow the owner to turn the system on and off or adjust temperature settings through the internet. By asking manufacturers to extend such access to government regulatory organizations, and granting those organizations override functions over other inputs, the plan could easily be put into practice for internet-connected AC units, and water heaters are another home appliance the committee is looking to gain the ability to throttle back. [...] According to Nihon Keizai Shimbun, the committee is currently working under the concept that the government would only be able to turn down AC units if their individual owners have agreed, in advance, to grant that authority.
From a technical standpoint, the plan wouldn't be particularly difficult to implement. Japanese air conditioner units have long had remote controls, so external inputs aren't a problem, and many models now allow the owner to turn the system on and off or adjust temperature settings through the internet. By asking manufacturers to extend such access to government regulatory organizations, and granting those organizations override functions over other inputs, the plan could easily be put into practice for internet-connected AC units, and water heaters are another home appliance the committee is looking to gain the ability to throttle back. [...] According to Nihon Keizai Shimbun, the committee is currently working under the concept that the government would only be able to turn down AC units if their individual owners have agreed, in advance, to grant that authority.
Or...build more power plants (Score:3, Insightful)
What kind of mentality has to be present between the ears for this sort of plan to make sense over building more generating capacity.
This is the philosophical equivalent of legally defining some sound stage as being The Moon instead of doing the work to land on the actual thing in the sky.
Re: (Score:2)
you forgot the /sarc tag
Re: Or...build more power storage (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
What kind of mentality has to be present between the ears for this sort of plan to make sense over building more generating capacity.
Uh...like, basic engineering and economical knowledge? If you can provide something for $1M in 95% of cases or for $2M in 100% of case, in real life people will often forego the second option because of the disproportionately low marginal utility. This goes for backup facilities (how many backup generators you need?), network capacities (how many lanes a highway should have?), facility capacities (how many beds a hospital should have?) etc. etc.
Re: (Score:2)
Uh...like, basic engineering and economical knowledge? If you can provide something for $1M in 95% of cases or for $2M in 100% of case, in real life people will often forego the second option because of the disproportionately low marginal utility.
If the world is going to de-carbonize the investments will have to be made regardless.
Re: (Score:3)
Oftentimes these kinds of demand-side mitigations are in the name of peak-shaving, which by its very nature are short term phenomena (otherwise they'd call it plateau-shaving). Reducing demand for a short period of time tends to be a more economical approac
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Because people leave HVAC systems running when they don't need to.
The ideal situation here is that HVAC systems would have a standard thermostat, which in Japan, many heating systems are not central unless they're large office buildings. They're usually a less efficient unit in a single room of the building, because many Japanese homes are uninsulated. The same reason the Kotatsu is a standard piece of furniture. They heat just the space under the living room table.
Japanese homes are disposable. They aren't
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"B... b...but we built a nuclear power plant in a tsunami-prone seismic zone, operated it for decades longer than it was rated for, and installed the backup generators in the basement, and bad things happened. So fuck YOUR air conditioner in particular." - Japan
Re:Or...build more power plants (Score:5, Insightful)
If there is going to be a brownout, it does make more sense to do it selectively.
Re: Or...build more power plants (Score:2)
Re: Or...build more power plants (Score:3)
My very good reason is because I want it that way. I'm paying for the power to keep it that way. Govt can fuck right the fuck off.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Or...build more power plants (Score:5, Interesting)
Fun fact: this is common for many AC installations in Texas. I had the immense pleasure to have my AC turned off remotely by the power company when it was 110F outside - it's really fun when you go from comfortable to sweating buckets before you can notice and you see the red light in the thermostat telling you that the power company thinks you're using too much and putting the grid in danger. This happened many, many times every summer.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Or...build more power plants (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I can't imagine why anyone would allow such an thermostat to be instal
Re: Or...build more power plants (Score:5, Informative)
Two key points:
1) Unless the rules are very different in Texas, this is an opt-in program.
2) Usually, in exchange for allowing the utility to step in, the utility customer gets paid for it. The payment is sometimes a fixed amount per month (like a reverse subscription), or on a per-event/per-time basis.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Or...build more power plants (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Some customers in Texas and Colorado already have a program like this available. The Colorado program is voluntary. Customers receive a sign-up incentive and annual rebate for joining the program. I don't know the details of the Texas program.
https://www.kiro7.com/news/tre... [kiro7.com]
https://www.businessinsider.co... [businessinsider.com]
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
According to Nihon Keizai Shimbun, the committee is currently working under the concept that the government would only be able to turn down AC units if their individual owners have agreed, in advance, to grant that authority.
Re: (Score:2)
Funny...I grew up a latchkey kid.
My parents told me what to do...and what NOT to do and I obeyed them.
Is that not a thing anymore?
Re: (Score:2)
Well, let some other green tree hugger voluntarily take the hit and sweat buckets on hot days.
Not for me.
My old fashioned, simple analog thermostat works just fine and keeps me at the temp "I" am comfortable with....
I make a decent living and will happily pay for the extra bit of electricity I'll be using.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
We don't have unlimited resources on this planet.
While resources are not infinite they are also not fixed quantities.
At some point, we need to reduce excess consumption.
The alternative is to invest in the electrical infrastructure required to meet demand.
Re: (Score:3)
If only we had a huge energy source outside of Earth we could use...
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Why do they need access? (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The thing is, the idea isn't new. For example, this is already happening in Texas. They, similarly, describe the process as actually having remote access to control the units. The only reasoning where actual remote access is more beneficial is under emergency situations. A check-in system would have a slower response time. H
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
According to Nihon Keizai Shimbun, the committee is currently working under the concept that the government would only be able to turn down AC units if their individual owners have agreed, in advance, to grant that authority.
Re: (Score:2)
Public Utility Commissions
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That's basically how it would work. The article isn't trying to describe the technical aspects, when it says "access" it just means in the sense that the government would have some control.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Or Doom. Or Skyrim.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Probably not.
Ha, reminds me of the novelization of Outland (Score:2)
By Alan Dean Foster (of course).
In it there was a small bit where one of the overworked space riggers was complaining how The Company were such penny pinchers that they regulated the temperature of the pressure suits to such a degree that they grew uncomfortably hot, and that was just to save on the battery discharging to power the climate control.
The more experienced worker said to just spread a bit of gloop on the widget that monitored temperatures, and that would make it give a higher reading.
Might take
Re: (Score:3)
I doubt that there will be any need for that in practice. The social pressures in Japan for everybody to conform are so high that I wouldn't be surprised to learn that over 99% of the people would opt in simply because they'd lose too much face if their neighbors learned that they had decided not to.
Given japan (Score:4, Interesting)
They can just offer a wall plug that turns off when the grid is loaded, and people will just install it themselves out of politeness.
Re: (Score:2)
It would be much better to be able to adjust the thermostat slightly. Turn it down a degree 30 minutes before the expected peak to pre-cool the room, then turn it back to the user's set point and coast through that high demand period.
Re: (Score:2)
Coming soon to California (Score:2)
Re: Coming soon to California (Score:2)
No, already here in CA (Score:2)
One reason [nahb.org] homes in CA cost so much is the enormous number of regulations applied to newly-constructed homes - and one of the newest regulations is this one requiring "smart thermostats" [greentechmedia.com]. So-called "smart thermostats" are a scam to enable remote control of the temperature within YOUR HOME by big, over-reaching, utterly incompetent government. Governor Newsom wants to control the temp in YOUR HOME to hide his incompetent energy management, but you may not have noticed that YOU do not gain control over the t
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah. That's what happens when investments in reliability cost more relative to cheap shit intermittent sources.
It's not that they're more expensive, it's that the reliable base load generation suffers from the fatal flaw of not being green -- we can't have reliable base load generation, because it produces dat debbil CO2.
Re: (Score:2)
Germany doing something similar (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: Germany doing something similar (Score:2)
For being right wing and using their own paid for AC and expecting it to reach the temps they pay for?
Wow arent you sitting in a climate controlled room as you spout this crap too?
Why are you even wasting electricity to be on the internet?
If they have agreed (Score:3, Insightful)
Insulation is key (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Japan is indeed quite late to the show, but they insulate new buildings now, and have been doing so for the last 20 to 30 years (though as far as I'm aware, there is no obligation to do so).
Re: (Score:2)
What they do now is irrelevant. It's still very much true that the majority of Japanese homes are designed for ventilation not insulation. This is true of any warm climate where civilisation formed prior to the invention of the AC. What you do "new" is irrelevant. The worst offenders are those who don't offer retrospective solutions.
Sidenote: Insulation went in our roof this week, because someone else building a new house down the street doesn't help me.
Re: (Score:2)
No Insulation (Score:5, Informative)
If you've ever been to Japan you'd be keenly aware of how terribly insulated their homes are. As in, no insulation whatsoever. You can't even choose insulation as an option if you're building a home there. They just "don't do it". They could easily save massive amounts of energy by retrofitting their houses and apartments.
Use an auction (Score:3)
The big problem with this remote override is people make the decision months before, so when it actually happens the decision no longer feels like their own so people get predictably pissed off.
So the solution is to make sure the people still feel like they have control by moving the decision point to the time when you need the power.
So instead of just making it a remote override you make it an auction. The thermostat starts dinging and people get a prompt "power usage is too high, so for X yen / hour can we set your thermostat to Y degrees?"
Now people are happy to change the temperature because the decision, discomfort, and reward are all happening at the same time.
Re: (Score:2)
So the poor, disabled, and elderly will be endangered, while the rich & wealthy get comfort at a tiny cost.
Only if the auction system uses 'wealth-proportional tokens', so to boost HVAC costs a increasingly high percentage of the user's wealth (not just income).
In most places in the US, many fines for misdemeanors are fixed-cost, meaning the wealthy can ignore the laws, because the fines are a pittance measured against their wealth.
Even for crimes that can include incarceration, the impact on the poor o
Re: (Score:2)
So the poor, disabled, and elderly will be endangered, while the rich & wealthy get comfort at a tiny cost.
This already happens through ordinary power bills, and one assumes this "advance authority" may be granted in return for some kind of benefit like cost.
There's also a huge protection built in where if someone's health is being endangered by the higher temp they can simply walk up to the thermostat and cancel the override.
No. (Score:3)
Only I know my individual temperature requirements to feel comfortable. I may have special needs. I may be ill. Or I may simply feel like walking around naked one particular evening. No one but me should have the right to regulate temperature in my own home.
Re: (Score:2)
I guess you missed the part where they said this would only be done with the permission of the homeowner.
Re: (Score:2)
Muh freedumbs!
Turn DOWN the A/C ??? (Score:2)
To reduce power consumption, you turn the A/C thermostat UP
Say in Japan do they use Kelvins or Fahrenheit degrees?
"shoot yourself in the foot meme.gif" (Score:2)
The solution is nuclear, the solution has always been nuclear, and the future solution is also nuclear (plus rooftop solar, but again that is not as reliable).
As Germany is experiencing this winter, "clean" energy is not as reliable. In fact they are bringing up coal plants while shutting down nuclear, which clearly does not make sense (not only coal is dirtier, and more dangerous, it actually releases toxic radioactive elements in the form of ash, whereas nuclear reactor "exhaust" is water vapor).
Anyway, g
They tried to do that to me in Florida (Score:3)
and offered a discount if I agreed....
Re: (Score:2)
Japanese have a commitment to their societal good. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Just build a goverment wi-fi ir blaster? (Score:2)
Net result: More power use (Score:2)
Because what will happen? People will install a heater element under the temperature sensor to make it artificially warmer where the temperature is measured. And now take a wild guess what will power this heater.
JapanToday Forum (Score:2)
The link in the /. article to the JapanToday post has a forum thread attached. I looked through many of the posts and thought I was reading /.
As for remote control of the thermostat...no way.
As for those people that need their homes warmed to 78F in the winter and cooled to 72F in the summer (roughly 25C and 22C, respectively)...I gotta wonder.
I know a few folks with body temperature regulation issues (myself included), but adjusting your clothing accordingly can really, not to mention using ceiling fans pr
Re: (Score:2)
As for those people that need their homes warmed to 78F in the winter and cooled to 72F in the summer (roughly 25C and 22C, respectively)...I gotta wonder.
I personally keep my room at 16-17C in the summer (hotter outside, colder inside, so I can cool down fast after getting in from outside) and 14-20C in winter (colder outside means I can tolerate higher inside temperature).
I have a bunch of servers in that room, so I never need to separately heat it. My AC works really hard in the summer, but it barely works in the winter (and sometimes not at all), because I get free cooling just by opening the windows.
Oh, you know this is coming here (Score:2)
easier... (Score:2)
Might make it worse... (Score:2)
If you have a system allowing the collective control of all thermostats by someone, it will inevitably be compromised and used to crash the grid by turning the set temp to 60 all at once.
Interruptible Service (Score:2)
Oops! (Score:2)
I got the plugs for the HVAC and grandma's ventilator swapped.
next step: remotely disable political opposition (Score:2)
A rose is a rose, by any other name. (Score:2)
You do not need to be the Bard [wikipedia.org] to get the concept that changing the name of a thing does not alter the actual substance and character of the thing. Remotely-controlled "smart meters" are just rationing in disguise. Rather than providing the energy the citizens want (sometimes NEED, depending on the health of the particular citizen), government wants the power to cut-off the heating or cooling in individual homes - an action that will be sort of subtle and spread across a population making it hard for jour
Re: (Score:2)
The worlds electrical infrastructure needs to be upgraded to support 2x the current consumption
Where are the resources going to come from to do that? Renewable sources still requires energy and rare materials to build. Increasing supply isn't always going to be an option.
Re: (Score:2)
And some people want everyone to use electric cars. Those will need electricity too,
Re: (Score:2)
Where are the resources going to come from to do that?
Presumably the ground.
Renewable sources still requires energy and rare materials to build. Increasing supply isn't always going to be an option.
It's going to have to be if you expect the world to de-carbonize. Curtailment doesn't scale and promotes destabilization thru synchronization of demand.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)