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French Companies Admit Problems at Nuclear Plant in China (nytimes.com) 176

Unusual activity at a nuclear power reactor in China has drawn international attention, as two French companies involved in the plant acknowledged problems on Monday but said they could be handled safely. From a report: The companies were responding to a report by CNN on Monday that Framatome, one of the companies, had sought help from the United States, citing an "imminent radiological threat" at the Taishan Nuclear Power Plant in Guangdong Province. EDF, France's main power utility and part owner of the power plant, said in a statement that certain gases had accumulated in the water and steam surrounding the uranium fuel rods at the heart of the reactor. But it said that the reactor had procedures for dealing with such a buildup of gases, which it described as a "known phenomenon." Framatome, an EDF affiliate and the builder of the reactors, said that there had been a "performance issue" but that the plant was operating within its safety parameters. In China, the power plant said in a statement on Sunday night that no leak into the environment had been detected.
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French Companies Admit Problems at Nuclear Plant in China

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  • by war4peace ( 1628283 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:08PM (#61487230)

    Sometime in late April 1986...

    • by MrL0G1C ( 867445 )

      In China, the power plant said in a statement on Sunday night that no leak into the environment had been detected.

      The difference is this time the plant has achieved consciousness and has begun communicating with people, that makes it far more dangerous.

    • You can't compare this to that. You've got an international operation here, and at least one of the countries is communicating and the client isn't stopping them. China is not great for transparency, but the USSR was locked down way harder. They didn't even tell people in the immediate vicinity until serious damage was done. IIRC, nobody knew internationally until radiation increases were detected in Europe. Then they were forced to fess up.

      I don't think the French are lying. We're finding out about a

    • If the reactor was blown apart like Chernobyl was in 1986, we'd know.

      (a) kind of hard to hide from spy satellites

      (b) every university rad lab has a scintillation counter that can run a gamma spectrum of fallout in a few hours and determine what's present in it

      (c) the Internet ... people talk. China isn't as isolated as former USSR was in 1986.

  • Wow. Don't you hate when a reactor has a "performance issue"?

  • by ffkom ( 3519199 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:11PM (#61487244)
    Given how mediocre the Soviet propaganda scored at downplaying the Chernobyl incident, it will be interesting to see how the Chinese propaganda will spin this event.
  • by Cyberax ( 705495 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:25PM (#61487298)
    I would guess that they have argon contamination because of insufficient filtering and water treatment. Or perhaps they're using nitrogen or helium contaminated with it. Argon has a humongous neutron absorption cross-section and it produces a very active isotope that releases a lot of energy during the decay.

    It has a fairly short half-life of just around 100 minutes, so it's harmless for anyone outside of the nuclear plant.
    • by sfcat ( 872532 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:57PM (#61487372)
      Either Argon or Xenon. Good news is that both are noble gasses and thus don't react with anything so no bio-accumulation. Bad news is that the Argon is very radioactive until it decays which is about a day. In contrast, Xenon takes a year to decay which makes it much less radioactive (still dangerous though). I think it is more a situation of the Chinese don't want to fix something and the French contractors disagreed. I doubt there is any real danger of a meltdown or other reactor failure. Still probably irresponsibly behavior on the part of some CCP officer.
      • by nojayuk ( 567177 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @05:20PM (#61487428)

        Xe-135 is a neutron absorbing fission product that's known to cause issues in reactors especially during startups or major power level changes but there are well-known ways to burn though any accumulation of Xe-135 that might affect power production levels. Xe-135 has a half-life of 9 hours so it doesn't stay around too long anyways.

        The reports are very coy about what sort of gas is said to be the problem -- one mention, I presume translated by Google from French into English says "fission gases" so it's probably not tritium or any of the neutron-capture transmuted forms of nitrogen, carbon or oxygen which might happen if the water feeds weren't properly de-oxygenated as they should be.

        • by MachineShedFred ( 621896 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @09:12PM (#61487860) Journal

          Xe-135 "poisoning" also played a part in the Chernobyl incident - the morons in the control room didn't know what was happening after half a day of running at minimum power and building up Xenon without the neutron flux to burn it off, and they stalled the reactor. Then they tried to pull all the control rods trying to get power back up so they could still do their rundown test, even though anyone with their head on straight should have known that they are outside of test parameters and should not. So they cranked it up in order to try to get power back to the level necessary for the test. Well, it went up all right - right through the roof once the Xenon burned off and the reactor went into runaway due to the coolant flashing to steam and creating voids (because they had also shut down two of the feedwater pumps in order to purposefully increase reactivity due to having a positive void coefficient.)

          Basically any way of controlling the reaction was purposefully removed or ignored, and then when they tried to shut the thing down when it started to run away on them, something nobody was told about happened - neutron absorbing water started getting replaced with neutron-moderating graphite control rod tips, which increased reactivity and blew the top off the thing. The last reading recorded had reactor-4 at 30,000MWt, or 10x the rated output of the reactor. Oops.

      • by Luckyo ( 1726890 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @05:31PM (#61487454)

        Less likely to be a CCP officer, more likely to be a plant director afraid of giving bad news of lessened production till they deal with the problem to his regional superiors. Problems getting swept under the rug is a norm in Chinese culture, because to tell about problems you're having to your superiors is to lose face. And face is paramount in China.

        • by tsqr ( 808554 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:03PM (#61487542)

          Problems getting swept under the rug is a norm in Chinese culture

          This is not even remotely unique to Chinese culture. Oh, the "face saving" part, sure. But please don't tell me you've never heard a boss in the US say something akin to, "Don't bring me problems; bring me solutions!", accompanied by a bit of table-pounding.

          • by Luckyo ( 1726890 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @09:17PM (#61487872)

            Not even remotely similar. In China, it's completely normal to spend more energy covering up problems so you don't have to bring them to your boss to save face. For example there have been recent reports of a sinkhole opening in the street in a tier three city in China, where crews arrived to begin filling up the hole while people were still in it to cover it opening in the first place. Can't have city bosses lose face because there's a documented major failure of infrastructure.

            Evidence is a handful of photos and complaints from citizenry who were severely distraught by the fact that workers that arrived at the scene were literally burying their loved ones alive to save face of the local leadership before WeChat memory holed the event, which is a common occurrence in China for such events.

            And this sort of thing is not uncommon in China.

            It's in fact one of the reasons why most of more demanding development with low tolerances for failure doesn't really function all that well in China. For example, manufacturing fighter jet engines. You need constant communication between each layer of leadership to minimize problems as they are found to ensure that end product has a useful life span, as even the tiniest failures that are barely noticeable result in severe reduction in end product's lifespan. In China, this is effectively impossible to achieve due to the way culture of face functions, so their fighter jet engines rarely last more than 1/10th of Russian counterparts that they're copied from in spite of massive amount of resources that has been thrown at this problem for at least two decades at this point. It's a strategic problem that top CCP leadership is involved in solving, and even then, it's been a process of beating their collective heads against the wall that is this culture for a better part of two decades.

            The "bring me solutions" culture you're talking about is in fact a great thing, because it means that boss is both informed of the problem and expects his subordinates to know that they also need to work independently and to the best of their ability to solve it. Both aspects are utterly absent in China, where not only are workers expected to try to hide any problems from their boss, but they're also utterly incapable (and culturally not allowed) to make their own judgement calls on potential solutions. It's a standard communist model of top down low trust leadership structure where even the medium tier bosses will have little to no ability to order any meaningful changes to procedure without getting permission from higher ups. And any attempt to act of one's own volition, no matter how productive is persecuted harshly.

            And bosses in question cannot be informed about potential problems that require such changes in the first place. It's a very unique cultural problem. One of the solutions often used is the heavy workplace drinking culture, where everyone is expected to go out with the rest of their corporate group and get utterly smashed routinely. During those events, inhibitions are often lowered enough for some details of potential failures to creep up the food chain without immediate loss of face.

            • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              In China, it's completely normal to spend more energy covering up problems so you don't have to bring them to your boss to save face.

              That's exactly how it is here too. To give you an example one installation engineer I know managed to blow up a load of lead acid backup power batteries, so went out and bought a load of new ones with his own money. He then blew those up as well, but third time was the charm. Never told his boss, even bought a load of cleaning products and paint to remove the black marks on the brand new building he nearly set on fire. Oh, and he replaced the fire extinguisher he used, again out of his own pocket.

              For example there have been recent reports of a sinkhole opening in the street in a tier three city in China, where crews arrived to begin filling up the hole while people were still in it to cover it opening in the first place.

              I couldn't

          • This is not even remotely unique to Chinese culture. Oh, the "face saving" part, sure. But please don't tell me you've never heard a boss in the US say something akin to, "Don't bring me problems; bring me solutions!", accompanied by a bit of table-pounding.

            In China you never hear that said because workers do not tell their boss anything. Not the problem, not the solution. They just pretend like everything is working as intended even when it's not. There's a very VERY big difference.

            I have had a boss in the USA say to me "If he screws up, help him fix the problem. Whatever you do don't report it." But that was during a cultural training class right before my trip to the Chinese plant.

            And the problem was very real too. There are some cultural sub context which

      • by Hmmmmmm ( 6216892 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @05:35PM (#61487468)

        https://www.reuters.com/world/... [reuters.com]

        "EDF said the build-up of noble gases krypton and xenon, which it said had affected the primary circuit of reactor No.1 of the Taishan plant, was a "known phenomenon, studied and provided for in the reactor operating procedures".

        A group spokesman said this could be because of an issue with fuel rods and seals. Measurements of inert gases were below maximum levels authorised in China, the spokesman said, adding that it was too early to say whether the reactor would have to be shut down.

        Krypton and xenon do not tend to react with other substances but they do have radioactive qualities and are therefore subject to constant monitoring."

        • by nojayuk ( 567177 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:17PM (#61487584)

          Okay, that's useful information. Xe-135 is a known problem as a fission product, it's one of the strongest absorbers of neutrons around causing issues with sustaining a chain reaction. It's usually only an issue during startup or making power level changes in a reactor and there are operational procedures to deal with its effects.

          What this event sounds like is that Xe-135 gas and maybe other common fission-product gases are escaping from the theoretically gas-tight fuel pins into the pressurised water inside the reactor vessel and being detected there. That would point to faulty fuel structures rather than anything particularly intrinsic to the EPR design. I can't recall if the Taishan EPRs are using Framatome-manufactured fuel for the initial operation of these French-designed reactors or whether the Chinese are manufacturing and using their own home-rolled fuel elements under licence.

          • Agreed. A fuel element failure is the first thing that came to mind. The cladding popped a seam due to thermal stress/bad fabrication.

            It's a nuisance, not a disaster. The symptoms of one were part of the training in ELT school in the Navy.

            Al Mas Pintado. SSN 672.

      • by Cyberax ( 705495 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @05:56PM (#61487522)
        I interned at a nuclear power plant and argon was a constant pain in the butt. Everything normally commercially available is contaminated with it, and argon being a noble gas it can't be easily filtered out. Pretty much the only way to get rid of it is to re-distill the gases and completely de-gas the water. But even after all of this, small remnants of argon were the reason for most of the excessive radiation dose received by workers (it's limited to 50mSv per year, we were well within that).

        I can totally see Chinese power plant operators cutting corners around it. It shouldn't be dangerous, but PR is going to be terrible.
      • by sfcat ( 872532 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:49PM (#61487630)
        Correction, the isotope of Xenon that lasts a year isn't made in fission. The only radioactive isotope of Xenon that's a fission product has a half-life of 9 hours (Xe-135) and the isotope of Krypton is Kr-83 which has a half-life of 2 hours. So they are both insanely radioactive but only for about 3 days (for Xe) and 18 hours (for Kr). Nuclear engineering is hard.
    • by Tailhook ( 98486 )

      My first thought was they're leaking tritium. Trace levels of tritium leak from all water moderated fission reactors and it's very hard to contain because it's hydrogen with extra neutrons and hydrogen famously leak through all but the best seals.

      This doesn't surprise me because this is a western design that assumes material and construction quality that one can only attempt to ensure in a reactor built and regulated in a Western nation, and operation by people that at least attempt to approach Western s

      • by nojayuk ( 567177 )

        Tritium is a noticeable problem with boiling-water reactors (BWRs) since the reactor-generated steam is used to directly drive turbines before going through condensers and cooling towers and being turned back into feedwater for the next trip round. There's a lot more piping and valve gear outside the containment for leaks of irradiated water to occur.

        The Taishan EPR in question, one of two operating there is a pressurised-water reactor (PWR). The water heated in the reactor doesn't flash to steam, the heat

        • by Cyberax ( 705495 )

          Tritium is a noticeable problem with boiling-water reactors (BWRs) since the reactor-generated steam is used to directly drive turbines before going through condensers and cooling towers and being turned back into feedwater for the next trip round

          Water from a BWR core _never_ goes into cooling towers. It's condensed in heat exchangers by the water that does go through cooling towers or ponds. In general, you have to heavily treat anything before it can go into the core, otherwise you'll get a radioactive mess on your hands.

          • by nojayuk ( 567177 )

            Yes, I know, but a BWR's moderator-coolant still leaves the reactor containment and passes through a lot of piping, the turbine which has non-gastight bearings etc. and the condensers which are sometimes cold-sinked in cooling towers. The reactor coolant is recirculated, it's not deliberately lost in an open-loop evaporator.

            The extra plumbing outside the containment means a very small but detectable amount of tritium can be found in various places outside a BWR reactor complex even when it's running withi

      • by v1 ( 525388 )

        The other concern is excessive hydrogen generation from the breakdown of zirconium due to uncovered fuel rods, like what blew the tops off the Fukushima reactors.

        "certain gases had accumulated" worries me. They obviously know which gasses, and they're not saying which one it is. Normally I try to leave the aluminum headcover on the shelf, but this is a pretty obvious withholding of information. If they're avoiding saying which gasses, I think it's safe to assume it's one of the worse options.

        If it were o

    • Former radiochemist here. Although I never worked with plant chemistry, I've got a little bit of knowledge of the kinds of issues you can get in these reactors.

      My semi-informed suspicion is that they're seeing krypton and xenon due to fuel failures, a problem that has been very nearly eliminated in reactors run in the west but does occasionally happen and used to be pretty common a few decades ago. We learned to control it by managing plant chemistry very precisely and with very strict foreign material ex

  • Manipulation (Score:4, Interesting)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:28PM (#61487306)

    This news was probably leaked by large funds wanting to buy into uranium stocks more cheaply than they currently are priced.

    • Interesting and not impossible.
    • by sfcat ( 872532 )

      This news was probably leaked by large funds wanting to buy into uranium stocks more cheaply than they currently are priced.

      LEU [yahoo.com] dropped by a little more than 1% today. That's the company that makes most of the civilian nuclear fuel for US use. Most major indices were down today so its all beta (its a movement of price in unison with the rest of the market). So it appears that your theory isn't correct.

  • by Burdell ( 228580 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @05:08PM (#61487396)

    In China, the power plant said in a statement on Sunday night that no leak into the environment had been detected.

    THE PLANT HAS GAINED SENTIENCE! Of course it's going to say nothing is wrong!

  • by pointybits ( 818856 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @05:11PM (#61487408)
    Do you taste metal though?
  • by manu0601 ( 2221348 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @05:15PM (#61487416)
    The CNN article does not make clear why a french company contracting in China would make USA involved.
    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Same thing happened with Fukushima. The Japanese were trying to deal with it and the US government kept demanding information from them. When they didn't get it we started seeing these conspiratorial articles in the US media about what were the Japanese covering up... Of course they weren't, they just had more important shit to deal with than some random foreign government agency.

      There is probably some regulatory requirement for them to report now, if they have any operations in the US.

      • The Japanese were trying to deal with it and the US government kept demanding information from them.

        I think if Japan had asked for help at the beginning of the disaster from the USS Ronald Reagan [wikipedia.org] that was diverted from exercises, instead of being so concerned with their pride and sovereignty, then the disaster could have been controlled.

        Especially considering that US budget had already been allocated for doing that stuff. Japan had access to the expertise of the reactor personnel on board, which would have gone a long way to reducing the severity of the Fukushima disaster. Instead reactor personnel w

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          While it would have been a good idea to get extra batteries on-site for cooling, in the end it wouldn't have actually helped. Most of the water that was pumped in to cool the reactors never reached them.

          There was a valve that was diverting water to a storage tank. The system for monitoring the valve was damaged and it was inaccessible for manual checking.

          Pride perhaps isn't quite the right word though. Denial maybe. Much like at Chernobyl, there was an unwillingness to accept the catastrophic reality of the

          • by MrKaos ( 858439 )

            Not counting the deaths of US sailors, deaths from nuclear power have overtaken renewables per terawatt hour produced.

            Nuclear 0.07
            Wind 0.04
            Solar 0.02
            https://ourworldindata.org/saf... [ourworldindata.org]

            Thank you for the updated information.

            While it would have been a good idea to get extra batteries on-site for cooling, in the end it wouldn't have actually helped. Most of the water that was pumped in to cool the reactors never reached them.

            There was a valve that was diverting water to a storage tank. The system for monitoring the valve was damaged and it was inaccessible for manual checking.

            The Ronald Reagan was perfectly place to get expertise on site at Fukushima before things got out of control, if they were authorized.

            Pride perhaps isn't quite the right word though. Denial maybe. Much like at Chernobyl, there was an unwillingness to accept the catastrophic reality of the situation.

            No, pride is the right word. Arrogance got them into the situation due to their belief that nuclear power was an infallible technological solution. Pride was what they used to conceal that arrogance because, as you rightfully say, there was an unwillingness to accept the catastrophic reality of the situation.

            The Australian press happen

            • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              There are some documentaries by NHK on YouTube somewhere, but basically the valve was physically inaccessible due to tsunami damage and high levels of radiation. Accessing it would have needed heavy equipment to remove some debris, not an easy task when some of that debris is contaminated and setting off personal alarms. Unfortunately I don't think anyone could have helped unless they were willing to die to do it.

              Having said that it might have helped to have engineers on site to give advice, but perhaps you

    • The French contracting in China doesn't "make USA involved". One nuclear expert working for a nuclear site they partially own has asked another for assistance. That is par for the course. The nuclear industry despite the insane politics surrounding proliferation is actually insanely collaborative.

  • by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @05:37PM (#61487476)

    an reverse China Syndrome is called?

  • On a scale from zero to "Oh my god!" where does these problems lie? With green being all is fine, and C being the moon is launched from it's orbit out to deep space.

    It appears to me that Slashdot will only cover good news about fusion power, which tells us that yet again fusion is only 20 years away, or good news about solar power, which is a technology that will also always be 20 years away. That's if it's not a story about how we are all going to die from global warming in 20 years. Thankfully we will

    • It appears to me that Slashdot will only cover good news about fusion power, which tells us that yet again fusion is only 20 years away, or good news about solar power, which is a technology that will also always be 20 years away.

      Let us know when the next solar power plant meltdown occurs.

      I'll submit it to Slashdot myself.

      • by nojayuk ( 567177 )

        Let us know when the next solar power plant meltdown occurs.

        The Tonopah solar concentrator tower melted its tower once when the computer-controlled mirrors focussed the sunlight on the wrong part of the structure for a time.

    • On your scale, about 0.2 if the Space 1999 case is a 10.

    • Sounds like safe nuclear power is still 20 years away if plants keep running into unexpected phenomena. The sun is exporting vast quantities of energy daily on our planet. Why not passively take advantage of that?

      • Sounds like safe nuclear power is still 20 years away if plants keep running into unexpected phenomena

        That may be true in China.

        The sun is exporting vast quantities of energy daily on our planet. Why not passively take advantage of that?

        Because sunshine is intermittent, requiring vast storage systems or some reliable power source to back it up. If we have a reliable power source to back up solar then what do we need solar power for? We don't use solar power much because it is dilute, it requires large facilities to collect this energy, a far more material and labor than any other energy source, and because of this demand for land, material, and labor it is damaging to the environment. Solar power is far from "g

  • Your New York Times link is paywalled, so we have no idea what they have to say on this story. The link in the clear is CNN's usual nudge-wink-apocalypse spin on anything related to climate and energy.

    This is what BBC had to say: https://www.bbc.com/news/world... [bbc.com]

  • by Bruce66423 ( 1678196 ) on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:58PM (#61487648)

    ' It also warned that the Chinese safety authority was raising the acceptable limits for radiation detection outside the plant to prevent it from being shut down.'

    From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/wor... [bbc.co.uk]

    OK granted that the safety margins in determining the safe level of radiation are massive (why can't there ever be a nuclear power station in Cornwall? Because the background radiation there would ensure EVERYONE exceeded their 'safe' dose'). But this still stinks.

  • From a French company, and the Chinese government, I will be deeply concerned. That would be just a bit too reminiscent of that moment in Fail Safe, where nations are forced to cooperate. Until then, I'm just hoping that this is dealt with properly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
  • by sjames ( 1099 )

    A bunch of people here are acting like the moon just exploded. This "incident" is more of an annoyance than anything. It comes at a bad time since there are power shortages already, but this is far from the end of the world.

    Ideally, they would shut down, let the xenon decay, then remove the offending fuel rod. Less ideally, they'll keep running until there is less shortage of electricity.

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