Data Withheld From WHO Team Probing COVID-19 Origins in China: Tedros (reuters.com) 148
Data was withheld from World Health Organization investigators who travelled to China to research the origins of the coronavirus epidemic, WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said this week. From a report: The United States, the European Union and other Western countries immediately called for China to give "full access" to independent experts to all data about the original outbreak in late 2019. In its final report, written jointly with Chinese scientists, a WHO-led team that spent four weeks in and around Wuhan in January and February said the virus had probably been transmitted from bats to humans through another animal, and that a lab leak was "extremely unlikely" as a cause. One of the team's investigators has already said China refused to give raw data on early COVID-19 cases to the WHO-led team, potentially complicating efforts to understand how the global pandemic began. "In my discussions with the team, they expressed the difficulties they encountered in accessing raw data," Tedros said. "I expect future collaborative studies to include more timely and comprehensive data sharing."
China withheld data?! (Score:5, Insightful)
I am shocked. SHOCKED!
Well, not that shocked.
HIPAA withheld data?! (Score:3)
Maybe they have HIPAA too?
Re: HIPAA withheld data?! (Score:2, Insightful)
The same government that black-bags people off the street if they cough and welds people into their apartments cares about privacy?
You must be quite stupid to assume that anyone else is stupid enough to believe what you wrote.
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Re:HIPAA withheld data?! (Score:5, Informative)
Maybe they have HIPAA too?
HIPAA allows your healthcare provider to share data with public health officials without your consent. https://www.cdc.gov/privacyrul... [cdc.gov] (see pagr 8)
The only privacy the CCP is truly concerned with is its own. It's not about the patients.
How to fix WHO? (Score:2)
If I had mod points, I'd give the Funny points to both in this branch and the next branch, too. Even better if I were capable of writing funny. I mean funny ha-ha, not funny unintelligible, per my default style. For example, I think it's still April Fool's Day in most readers' time zones... Or my new Subject could be the basis of some sort of "Who's on first" bit.
However mostly I want to comment on the problems with WHO, but I can't provide the link to the video of the interview I listened to recently. Basi
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Maybe they have HIPAA too?
I went to a doctor's office in China when my daughter was sick.
The nurse had a desk in the waiting room. She saw the patients first. They sat at her desk, in full view and earshot of the other waiting patients, and explained their problem. For 90% of the patients, she made a quick diagnosis, gave them a pack of pills (sometimes herbal, sometimes real), and sent them home. The other 10% saw the doctor.
There was no concept of patient privacy at all.
It actually sped up the process, because instead of expla
Re: HIPAA withheld data?! (Score:2)
Bedroom doors with locks!? I'm from the UK and that concept is foreign to me.
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Bedroom doors with locks!? I'm from the UK and that concept is foreign to me.
Locking bedroom doors are common in America.
That may explain our higher birthrate.
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Is there actual data on this, or is this just you personal observation?
When I was a kid (long ago), my bedroom did not lock. I have lived in many newer houses since then, and they all had bedroom doors that lock.
I can't find any data on whether locking or not-locking prevails.
If I Google for images of "bedroom door knobs", most have locks.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Granted it is China MO. However it is normally politically better to give them a chance to to the right thing and admonish them for not. vs just assuming they are not going to do it in the first place.
If you give them the option to do the right thing, and they failed. It is their issue.
If you assume that they will not do the right thing and take preemptive measures, than you are the one who is looking like the bad guy.
This is part of a Trust but verify mentality.
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If you give them the option to do the right thing, and they failed. It is their issue.
This has been the case with China for a long time. China is largely responsible for covid-19 being released to the world. They have committed human rights abuses for many decades, and continue to do so.
After such inaction on their side for so long, the rest of the world must speak up.
China IS the bad guy. There is no modern, sane country that actually believes or trusts China or the corrupt Chinese polititians (aka the CCP).
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If you give them the option to do the right thing, and they failed. It is their issue.
This is about an ongoing global pandemic. It's everyone's issue.
If you assume that they will not do the right thing and take preemptive measures, than you are the one who is looking like the bad guy.
If you assume that they will not do the right thing then you look like the smart guy, because you learned the lessons of history.
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"I expect future collaborative studies to include more timely and comprehensive data sharing." And I expect the Easter Bunny to deliver $1 million to me this Sunday. I'd say the odds of either is about the same.
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Because he's a fucking CCP astroturfer. Isn't it obvious by now ?
Re: China withheld data?! (Score:2)
I wonder too. I defend China often too. It is because the accusations and treatment made against China almost always don't match my experiences and I therefore consider them to be unfair and unjust, usually based on outright lies, produced by people and organisations from western organisations that have behaviour and intentions that they claim China has, but actually doesn't...at best it is pure projection, but it's more deliberate than that.
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Empire is pretty accurate. Vassal states, military all around the world, crushing local rebellion...
Re: China withheld data?! (Score:2)
"cut your balls off"? Where did that come from?
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Would you rather China rule the world instead of the US?
Speaking only for myself, but no doubt echoing billions of people around the world, I don't want either self-serving nation with a history of atrocities, both within and external to its borders, to rule the world. They both have horrendous track records. Currently China is focusing most of its atrocities inwards, while the US is focusing them outwards, but neither deserves a free pass.
Re: China withheld data?! (Score:2)
That and, the US does not rule the world, it just thinks it does and acts accordingly. The US lags behind many industrial nations in many respects, but what it has going for it is an absolutely absurd military budget and an unending willingness to use it to get involved in other countries' internal affairs (for more information see any US-led conflict/invasion from 1950 - 2005).
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Because he's a $0.05. Wumao.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org].
Painfully obvious.
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The second one is a controversy over the State of Florida's COVID web site and whether or not the date of incidence reported on the site should be when the positive was initially discovered or when it was officially announced. Clearly blown out of all proportion by the news media.
Neither of these cases resulted a world-wide pandemic with 2.8 million people dead so far
Trump (Score:1, Troll)
Trump was totally bamboozled by the Chinese and the globalists .. sad.
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Globalization allows one to enjoy products from around the world. So we all have been "bamboozled".
He whose name need not be mentioned (Score:1)
Everyone already knows who you must be talking about, even if we don't have to care about him anymore. If a certain governor of Florida had any brains, he'd build a YUGE and impenitrible wall around a certain golf course... "The better to ignore you."
Mostly just an attempt to change the Subject, even if it started as a joke. As for the substance, I mostly concur, per my earlier reply.
How about a Slashdot poll about the biggest bamboozlement? Oh, wait. Isn't the current poll about NFT? I'm too slow again.
DataWars: This is not the data you are looking for (Score:2)
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Data - what data?
Commander Data. Duh.
No way to satisfy the west. (Score:2, Insightful)
Even if China was to give raw data, unless the data admits that there was a lab leak, the west is always going to continue to think that China is doctoring the data, and therefore withholding data.
Re:No way to satisfy the west. (Score:4, Insightful)
The "west" can be satisfied. Our establishment dearly wants to exonerate China, and it keeps trying to exonerate China and its labs and anything else that needs exonerating at every opportunity. But the fact is China won't provide the level of access necessary to rule anything out.
The mote in your brother's eye (Score:3)
Bollocks. I've seen how the 'Russia BAD' campaign went. Once it builds up momentum everyone goes 'Hey the Russians are saying 2+2=4 but you can't trust them, I'll take our trusted sources who say it's 5'. China is the same thing. They couldn''t say the sun is shining without everyone here going 'Can't trust them'.
If I'd have to score how well every country has been doing China may not get an A+ but they did outperform most of the world. The underperformers on the other hand are also those who blame China th
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You actually think that if China released raw data, Slashdot...
I didn't say anything about Slashdot. Although I know exactly what Slashdot would be filled with — I've been here a long time — you didn't ask about Slashdot.
You said "the West." And yes, if China were to have provided unfiltered access to primary source records and direct access to staff health records, video evidence, etc. in a timely manner "the West" could have been satisfied. As I said before, our establishment dearly wants to exonerate China and put all of this behind it and get back
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There is no way to satisfy a conspiracy theorist. However often even a country when they try to hide data they are obvious holes. If they were to give all the data and it made sense, then they would be happy with it.
A conspiracy nut, will just see the data and just disbelieve it even if it does properly fill the holes and comes with a good conclusion that the data is backing, And put in a narrative that they bothered to change a lot of data, often taking a ton of man hours, and resources and finding who t
Re: No way to satisfy the west. (Score:2)
OMG, learn some English grammar, please.
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Have you not followed the news? It's unscientific denialism to even consider it a possibility that it escaped the lab at this point.
Normies think the media and scientists are full of it, but the media and the scientific consensus are on your side. What more do you want? Tanks to grind some normies into paste to convince them to stop talking about it?
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Defining the west by peon's like me is a bit silly at this point, populism has lost ... what I think is neither here nor there. The power structures of the west, including the media, operate as if it resulted from natural causes. That will be what goes in the history books. Someone from China should be familiar with how this goes, it works even without the tank pasting.
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The power structures of the west, including the media, operate as if it resulted from natural causes. That will be what goes in the history books.
There's always Conservapedia.
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Why do you defend a murderous genocidal totalitarian regime ?
Re: No way to satisfy the west. (Score:2)
I think you'll have to be more specific. Which regime are you talking about?
Re: No way to satisfy the west. (Score:2)
I agree. There's no way to win, so why bother.
Re: No way to satisfy the west. (Score:2)
Lol, way to prove his point. There's nothing anyone can do to convince people like you... you're entrenched and will never change your mind even when presented with all the evidence in the world.
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If China told you that 2+2=4 Orange Man Bad, you probably wouldn't believe it. That much is clear.
What would they even gain from the attempt of coming clean?
If China told you 'oops we actually had 10x as many dead' here are the real records. You can trust us now.
Would you and people like you.
A. Start to trust China.
B. Use it as evidence to show China is untrustworthy.
And you're still surprised they won't come clean?
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> If China told you that 2+2=4
A closer-to-fact analogy is that they keep telling people 2+2=3. FTFY.
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I expect that kind of knee jerk idiocy from Orange Man Bad, but did you even understand the post you replied to?
Try reading the whole thread again if you're still having trouble.
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trying hard to earn your ä"æ trust is har to earn. do 10 good thing then 1 shit and your level of trust when down 50% ccpsi cetheir inception was u trustworty. they were lucky that japanese army had worn out kmt. Immagine if kmthad won? would mainland be like Taiwa n nowaday BOYCOTT ccp winter olympics
Is Google translate broken for everyone?
Reuters... (Score:1)
...reflecting the political objectives of their owners since... forever.
Right now that ownership is involved in misinformation warfare vs Russia and China.
Move along, nothing credible to see here.
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Why do you defend murderous tyranical dictatorships ? Who pays your bill ?
Re: Reuters... (Score:2)
He isn't. Why do you claim he is? Who is paying your bills?
Timing (Score:3)
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He's a commie, and he takes his orders from the CCP.
--jcr
So why is he publicly voicing any concerns at all then?
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No not really.
Having the big boss man call the alarm, without data could cause mistrust of the data when it is released, especially if a good portion of the data is actually good.
Second it shows that he may not have trust in his staff to do their job.
Third it would make it seem that the WHO is pre-censoring information before it becomes public.
Are we all confused now? (Score:2)
Hans Rieser Hans Rieser Hans Rieser (Score:3)
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Evidence of a conspicuous coverup is not evidence of an absence of evidence.
Motive to lie is self-evident.
Influence operations through US media channels are neither inconceivable nor unheard of.
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Shouldn't jump to conclusions. China doesn't want to hide their coronavirus program, it's all in the open.
The reason they actually want to hide is their weaponized ebola program. Can't have knowledge about that getting out, even if it means they are wrongly accused of releasing coronavirus.
Pro-China elements are trying to avoid the obvious (Score:5, Insightful)
Whenever you say "the outbreak originated from the lab," you get inundated with responses from neckbeards, 95 IQ public intellectuals and 50 cent army shills crying "muh conspiracy theory" and claiming you're citing the "debunked" theory** that the virus was artificially created.
They do this because they don't want you to look at the prospect that one of two things happened:
1. It was released by accident from the lab.
2. It was released on purpose from the lab by state orders.
Neither of those require a formal weapons program, genetic engineering, etc. They only require:
1. A lab with biological samples collected from the wild.
2. Fallible human beings.
3. Optionally, an angry leader willing to subvert international law.
I guess we're just crazy looking at a government that runs concentration camps, uses gang rape as a weapon against ethnic minority women, is actively genociding the people of Tibet and has credible accusations of harvesting organs from political dissidents and thinking they might have it in them to play a game of "share the infected blankets" with a few infected bats.
Re: Pro-China elements are trying to avoid the obv (Score:2)
In 2010 a bunch of Russian spies were arrested in the northeast US. They weren't there to break into defense contractors or kidnap and extort policymakers. They were there to make friends and eventually influence people.
China has been sending students to American universities for long enough that some of the people they might have befriended in college are now in positions of editorial influence at places like NYT and Wapo and the rest.
It ain't rocket science to surmise that the China-friendly information o
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2. It was released on purpose from the lab by state orders.
That seems incredibly unlikely.
Re: Pro-China elements are trying to avoid the obv (Score:3)
I agree. That conjecture fails the plausibility laugh test. But an accidental release, whether in gathering, transporting, or studying specimins is not at all implausible.
Best not to conflate the craziest implausible version of the idea with the more reasonable, but no less damning, version.
Only idiots and shills laugh at the idea (Score:1)
As I said, this is a government that routinely wipes its ass with international law on horrendous issues like putting vast numbers of conquered minorities in concentration camps, mass gang-raping their women into compliance and harvesting organs from political prisoners.
But sure, "laugh it off" knucklehead. COVID-19 is the perfect bioweapon because it kills mainly in a demographic that China already wants less off (old and fat people) and that are s
Re: Only idiots and shills laugh at the idea (Score:2)
If they did it deliberately, they wouldn't have done it in a way that points so obviously to them. They would have done it in a way that would have enabled them to sweep to the rescue and put the west to shame, not in a way that requires them "deal" with who scrutiny, such as it is.
It's possible covid was engineered as a bioweapon. I have no reason to believe or doubt that. But that's not the point in contention. The point in contention is if it came from nature, sloppy hygiene, or a lab accident.
Let's stic
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If they did it deliberately, they wouldn't have done it in a way that points so obviously to them.
That assumes a high level of competence. The CCP has never needed that. They have the people so thoroughly controlled that they can act hamhandedly left and right and their own people will believe the bullshit they're sold. That's why to so many Chinese Tienanmen square is just a place where some idiot protestors were schooled, if that.
It's possible covid was engineered as a bioweapon. I have no reason to believe or doubt that.
Experts have said it wasn't, because if it was there would be signs of same. There's no signs that China has developed biotech that the rest of us don't have, so that remains
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Or they do it because 3. The conclusion that it did not come from a lab at all is actually eminently reasonable, all things considered.
The notion that this virus was artificially created rests entirely on conjecture, not on any evidence that makes such a conclusion statistically probable.
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The notion that this virus was artificially created rests entirely on conjecture
The poster is not suggesting it's artificial. Why conflate accidental release with artificially created?
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There's no evidence that it ever came from a lab either...
Such a conjecture is not any more sustainable in rational discourse.
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Of course! It should have been obvious to me from the start.
I am nothing short of awed by your amazing wit and profound deductive reasoning. Clearly I am no equal to your self-evident genius.
Re:Pro-China elements are trying to avoid the obvi (Score:4, Insightful)
One thing we know for sure about lab accidents is that they happen, and more often than we should accept.
This reporter has been following pathogen lab safety for years. Most of the horror stories of course are from relatively open societies, the ones where the accidents are harder to cover up.
https://www.usatoday.com/in-de... [usatoday.com]
It would make sense to me to have a worldwide treaty about lab safety. A toxic chemical spill only affects the area where it happens. A loose contagious pathogen is a problem for the entire world.
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This reporter has been following pathogen lab safety for years. Most of the horror stories of course are from relatively open societies, the ones where the accidents are harder to cover up.
Sure, and some horror stories are about the lab in Wuhan [politico.com].
Re:Pro-China elements are trying to avoid the obvi (Score:5, Insightful)
But I do not believe it was released intentionally. They would have taken it far away from that lab and probably outside their borders had they wished to release it. But there seems no motivation to release it, in any case. Not yet, at least.
If you want conspiracy theory, in twenty years the Chinese (and their vaunted economy, military, etc.) are going to be drowning in senior citizens and very few working age stiffs to support them. A truly amoral government would prepare for all possibilities in order to keep options open. Such as preparing a disease that would have been further modified for many years to come until it was much more targeted on the old, much more lethal, perhaps even more contagious, and vaccines had been thoroughly researched and tested so that senior leadership (which tends to be made up of older folks itself) and its families could be fairly well assured of personal survival.
But that's just the stuff for a technothriller conspiracy novel. No way a nice country that keeps concentration camps, turns dissidents into live organ donors, and routinely commits genocide, would ever actually be doing such a thing.
Never mind that, in ancient times, when two provinces were experiencing famine, and very near open rebellion, the traditional response was to send the army to take all the food from one and give it to the other. The starved province could not rebel, and the other province would then be loyal to the leadership which had saved them. Problem solved. If this seems incomprehensible to you then chances are you are from a different culture. Perhaps a less pragmatic culture.
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I believe the presence of that particular lab in such close proximity to the outbreak is too hard to dismiss as coincidence.
Outbreaks require a large number of people in close proximity to each other, which is much easier to find in a major city.
Research labs are located in major cities because it's much easier to find talented people in a city than in the middle of the nowhere.
That's your link. You're looking at two things that both work better with a dense population.
We've already seen that the virus was spreading in rural areas for months before the outbreak in Wuhan. We've also seen evidence that the virus was spreading in E
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We've already seen that the virus was spreading in rural areas for months before the outbreak in Wuhan.
You either have a different definition of evidence, or you've seen different papers, to me.
I am certainly aware of claims that one possible origin of the virus were rural 'wildlife' farms. If that was the case it's rather odd then that the significant outbreak occurred in just one city within China.
We've also seen evidence that the virus was spreading in Europe before it hit Wuhan.
I've seen one paper, from Italy, that suggests this, but the numbers within it do not pass the sniff test. There's also an analysis of sewage, from Spain I believe, but again the numbers (hospitalisation, mortali
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"... I picked a bad day to be out of mod points" (Score:2)
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The real question is why people like you insist, against all common sense, on believing in a theory for which there is absolutely zero evidence of ?
You know what other theory there is zero evidence of ? That the virus was created and released by aliens. Why don't you and others like you try to push this theory also ? After all, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, right ? So it must be aliens !
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I agree with the Germans that it probably came from very lax safety protocols at the Wuhan lab. Some bat poor poop scraper wearing flip-flops shorts and a t-shirt was probably bit by a bat.
To many, it seems that China is an uncivilized country really trying hard to technologically catchup with the Superpowers but just like a child playing with matches China keeps burning down the house.
This time they almost burned down the Worlds' house.
Is China is taking on too much risk and moving too fast?
Re: Pro-China elements are trying to avoid the obv (Score:2)
Some bat poor poop scraper wearing flip-flops shorts and a t-shirt was probably bit by a bat.
Why is that hypothetical incident more likely to have happened inside a BSL-4 facility instead of... in a bat cave? Say a lab employee was patient zero. I don't know if that's based on anything credible, but go with it. Why is an accident in the lab more likely than an accident in the field? The scientists must have done some field work, or been exposed to others that do.
The whole lab accident thing is too specific a conclusion based on what we know, maybe it happened, but maybe any of a hundred other t
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This time they almost burned down the Worlds' house.
Well it didn't help that when China and the WHO said to start spraying flame retardant.
Trump decided to spray gasoline instead.
You're close but you missed something (Score:2, Insightful)
Because that blames individuals. Blaming what scientists are saying is the cause (deforestation & wet markets increasing interspecies contact and resulting in more genetic mutations) blames systems.
There's two players here.
1st, China, they would love it for you and me to blame individuals because that lets them off the hook for their systemic problems.
2nd, and no easy way to say this, Republicans. They were
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So both sides, China & the GOP, are happy to push the lab narrative
Wow.
So you're actually saying that China, [abc7.com] who has vigorously [cnn.com] and repeatedly [fmprc.gov.cn] denied [ndtv.com] "the lab narrative", [newsweek.com] is in fact happily pushing "the lab narrative"?
Regular readers here are familiar with your frequent claims that are in direct conflict with reality, but this is pretty "out there" even by your standards.
You feeling OK buddy?
Yeah, I am (Score:2)
So the next best thing is to blame a lab. That way we don't start calling for them to stop slash and burning forests, running wet markets full of unregulated wild animals and other stuff that helps keep their otherwise weak rural economies going besides taking some of the money their kleptocratic rules are hoarding and spend it on peo
One more thing (Score:2)
Mind you, not the Chinese people, nobody cares about them, the Chinese Government.
Fixing Deforestation/Wet Markets would cost them a ton of money.
Blaming it on a lab accident i
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So the next best thing is to blame a lab.
Uh huh. Can you provide one single example of the Chinese government blaming a lab? ANY lab? It's quite clear that China has been pushing against the lab accident theory since the beginning. I've given you multiple sources proving it. Of course for you, facts that contradict your reality are immediately rejected.
That way we don't start calling for them to stop slash and burning forests, running wet markets full of unregulated wild animals and other stuff
The entire world IS calling for them to stop r
There is no evidence for EITHER (Score:2)
ChiComs (Score:3)
It doesnt have to be a leak to come from the lab (Score:2)
What are the chances this was one in a long list of unusual sars viruses the wuhan kab was analysing, one if the scientists accidentaly got infected and had few or no symptoms and proceeded to spread it around the city. Maybe they even shopped in a wet market tne same day.
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Still a lot lower than the chance that this virus happened to make the jump to humans through close contact outside of a lab.
Deforestation rates are bringing humans into closer contact with creatures that would ordinarily never come into contact with society. The fact that a novel pathogen from such a creature found a suitable human host was practically inevitable.
And it's going to happen again someday. Count on it.
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Or a third option: the world is changing on account of human involvement, and this kind of thing is actually only going to just become more common as we increase the likelihood of contact with creatures which would otherwise never be anywhere near enough to human civilization.for a pathogen which has the ability to jump species.
All things considered, this kind of scenario happening by nothing more than so-called "chance" was actually all but inevitable.
And it can and most certainly will happen again.
Coverup not just from China, but U.S. (Score:2)
Don't forget that if Covid did originate from the lab in Wuhan as many scientists are now saying is likely, it it in part due to our very own Dr. Fauci funding the wuhan lab [indiatimes.com].
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God you're an idiot.
Who trusts in WHO anymore? (Score:5, Insightful)
Trust but verify (Score:2)
The current administration is going to try and fix that, but it's easy to pull the boots out, it's much, much harder to get them back in...
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The problem, which I'm not saying is a reason not to have boots on the ground in China, is that their government has every motive to make sure the people wearing those boots are misled. And that's precisely what they have been doing, and further, what they have done historically. They know their current practices are unsustainable. They're trying to move towards sustainability. But they give no shits who they shit upon in the process. You know, kind of like the USA.
Video where WHO is asked about Taiwan (Score:3, Insightful)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Please watch one minute from 00:32 onwards to 01:30 or so.
One minute will teach you more about WHO than a hundred press releases.
Does it reallly matter? (Score:2)
Why does it matter? (Score:2)
Because if it happened the way the Chinese say:
On the other hand, if it escaped from a lab, even by accident:
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It could happen again, with a different virus or other animal species,
That is 100% true, or rather it will happen with a different virus and other animal species. The question is when, not if.
Stop New Year 2020 migration from Wuhan (Score:2)
Thank you (Score:1)
Religion (Score:2)
Tedros is getting religion rather late. He must see impending doom -- his doom.