HP Makes More Money, Cuts 16,000 Jobs 288
jfruh (300774) writes "Good news for HP: Profits are up by 18% over the previous year! Bad news for HP: A lot of those profits are from post-Windows XP PC upgrades, and company revenue actually dipped 1%. The solution, according to CEO Meg Whitman, is "continuous improvement in our cost structure," which means firing thousands of people. At the end of the next round of layoffs, the company will have shed 50,000 employees since 2012."
New submitter Deveauxes (3664417) links to a similar story from CNN's news service, according to which "HP said the latest layoffs would come across all its business units and geographic locations, and would generate $1 billion in annual savings beyond the $3.5 to $4 billion projected from the previously announced cuts. 'No company likes to decrease the work force, and we recognize that this is difficult for employees,' CEO Meg Whitman said in a conference call with analysts. 'I think everyone understands the turnaround we're in.'"
Bringing in the Indians!! (Score:4, Interesting)
How many H1Bs will replace them?
Re:Bringing in the Indians!! (Score:5, Informative)
I thought that they still relocating entire offices to third world countries, and staffing them with people making $3 an hour to do your tech support calls. You can't get H1B's for that cheap!
What... you still want tech support that can actually understand English and isn't just navigating through a troubleshooting flow chart to "fix" your problem? You better pony up for the Gold level Enterprise support package for $$$$$$ a month.
Re:Bringing in the Indians!! (Score:5, Informative)
As for the English speaking, all you have to do is explain to them that you have a hearing problem and need to speak with someone who is accent free in English. They will bend over backwards to get you to a native English speaker (quasi Americans with disabilities act and all).
Now the downside to this is more time on hold. The upside- beside understanding what they are saying- is that the native English speaker will likely by a higher level tech who can go outside the chart without delving into "please insert the restore CD into the computer" or at least be able to warn about backups first. but there is no guarantee. Well, I guess now there is no restore CD, press key combination and select restore?
Re: (Score:3)
Can I have a pinch of salt with that (Score:5, Insightful)
Being an Indian, I understand the frustration when support goes out to some dude in India who barely speaks English. I have been there myself, not only that, I have been asked how I made it to Canada.
Nonetheless, those that do make the H1B cut are not the same that answer those phone calls. H1B may be fresh grads, however most have engineering degrees, at the start of which they had to compete against 500,000 applicants for a under 10000 seats. Further, seats in Computer engineering which are valued more so than others are probably around 1000.
Furthermore, there is a contrast in fee, in US, a student might have to bail out if he cannot afford the education, so not only do you have to be smart, you have to be rich, contrasting that to peanuts, the competition gets very very tough back in India.
So joke all you want, those that do make it to US are rather smart and hard working.
I'm not saying they are not exploited, they are. The solution is simple, the employer has to prove, H1B is needed as local talent cannot be found, if thats the case, do not tie H1B to an employer, let the employee roam free. You will see a drastic cut in H1B and abuse of new immigrants.
Re:Can I have a pinch of salt with that (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem isn't Hindi-speakers, it is the US H-1B system that may not have a lot of people totally, but in the relatively narrow market of development and IT, it severely destroys wages.
The threat of a H-1B is like one not seen in any other industry. If you are a lawyer, accountant, or in any other profession, your boss can't threaten (and follow through) with being fired and replaced with someone who works for $16,000 a year, has a full CCIE or MCSE. In /. post a few days ago, I had a similar experience to someone who posted about being fired after he cleaned up a bad admin and was replaced by a H-1B because his boss said, "H-1Bs don't do sabotage".
It is the abuse of H-1Bs, and the fact that they seem to be treated by management as the emissaries of $DEITY, the solution for all problems.
As for proving H-1Bs are needed, that is trivially easy to abuse. I've seen places have a "secret requirement" for jobs, where -nobody- fits the requirement, so they get their minimum wage worker. I personally have had to train a H-1B replacement whose only qualification over me was the fact that he was a bargain basement worker, and that if he didn't toe the line 24/7/365, he would be sent back to Mumbai almost immediately.
Another excuse for H-1Bs I've personally seen were job reqs that had three pages of listings. Again, nobody had 12 years of Windows Server 2012, 25 years of OS X, and so on. Again, nobody locally meets those reqs, so the company hits Tata or Infosys and lo and behold, they get a H-1B for that developer position who is willing to work obscene hours for peanuts.
Don't take it personally. It isn't the H-1B who is trying to make life better for themselves. It is the fscked US system and the managers who abuse the process, begging politicians to open the floodgates and entirely destroy work segments, similar to how meat packing and textiles were destroyed as blue collar work.
It is so common, it is obscene. I have seen perfectly competant developer groups tossed and all coding offshored. The result was broken stuff that ended up requiring more money and man-hours to get working than it would have cost in paying some people decent salaries.
Re:Can I have a pinch of salt with that (Score:5, Insightful)
So joke all you want, those that do make it to US are rather smart and hard working.
sorry, not my experience at all (20+ years in the bay area and I have tons of experience with indians). they THINK they are good, but the code quality, design quality and attention to detail is far below par.
I hate saying that. I really do, but it tends to be true. indians study by memorizing and they tend to be great at that; but when it comes to thinking things thru, they fall down. the education system encourages rote memorization.
Re:Can I have a pinch of salt with that (Score:5, Insightful)
The annual number of H1B visas issued 85,000.
However, the number of H1B visas working in the USA is closer to 750,000 today.
(it was about 650,000 in 2009.
http://cis.org/estimating-h1b-... [cis.org])
There are roughly five million STEM jobs including immigrant labor and native born labor.
So about 1/8 of all these jobs are taken by H1B visas.
Meanwhile, there are almost double the number of native born with STEM degrees.
There is not a shortage of workers. There is a shortage of workers willing to work for low wages.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-G... [breitbart.com]
Re:Can I have a pinch of salt with that (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not so much the low wages but being in-servitude. Employers love having workers who will do anything they're asked and that they don't have to worry about them complaining about things like working conditions or going to work somewhere better.
Re:Can I have a pinch of salt with that (Score:4, Insightful)
" There is a shortage of workers willing to work for low wages."
which means they should paid more oh, right. Corporation get to maneuver around the free market when it suits them.
Re:Can I have a pinch of salt with that (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't let them get to you. The only people I see complaining about H1Bs "taking all the jobs," are a bunch of out of touch old fogies who refuse to keep their skills up to date and relevant. (Note: there are still a lot of good peeps in that age group, and this comment was not directed at them). You are better than them, so just forget all that noise and come join us, in a new age, a new reality of instantaneous sharing of knowledge and ideas from across the globe, my brother in code. Come rejoice with us, and share your gift, whatever that gift may be. Share it far and share it wide and share it for the betterment of all mankind.
Fuck off. I don't give a shit about sharing, I only want money. The fact of the matter is increasing the supply of labor hurts everyone from the bottom to the top. For highly valued coders it may just mean the difference between $120,000 / year and $130,000, but that's still a difference.
If citizenship means nothing, as the upper class would have you believe, then why bother being part of this state? Why shouldn't we break off and live on our own? The government is happy to take our money to support itself,
Re: (Score:3)
H1Bs are impacting the job market, and taking jobs for cheap. why do you think large corporation want them to be easier to get?
Yes I'm an old foggy, But dollar to donuts I an out code you in any technology.
Re: (Score:3)
How about outsourced people with great English skills, technical knowledge and still being paid around 3 bucks an hour?
Welcome to Romania.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:20,000 H1Bs for the country vs 320 million citi (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
And don't forget it's a three year period, so the actual number of H1-B visa holders in the company could be as many as triple that. It will actually be somewhat less, because not everyone stays for the full three years, but there are certainly at least half a million people in the country on the H1-B visa. And that's not counting the other work visa types, such as the L-1. When you consider that the total number of engineering, programming, and technician jobs is around 4 million, it becomes clear just
Re:20,000 H1Bs for the country vs 320 million citi (Score:4, Informative)
Sure, but that includes the elderly and children and people who dont' work, and people who work in areas not eligible for H1Bs. There are, and this is a hotly debated number, perhaps 2.4M STEM related jobs (of which HP itself only employs a cross-section of) and of that under 10% are open. There are over 11 million STEM degreed americans out there who have given up on STEM, probably due to dropping salaries and incessant layoffs.
Anyway hopefully as HP lays off STEM job holders, the H1B count can be lowered by that number (some large fraction of 16K jobs). Of course that won't happen because salaries might go up.
It's sad what has happened to HP (Score:5, Insightful)
They used to make really cool, quality stuff (Agilent Technologies anyone?) Now they're reduced to selling disposable printers and ink that costs more than vintage Dom. Gee thanks, Carly.
Printer Ink (Score:5, Insightful)
All of my calculators used to be HP, all of my bench equipment was HP or Tektronix. But these days, I no longer own an ink-jet printer, so I don't buy printer ink, so HP has nothing for me.
There are many brands that no longer represent their heritage: Philips, Zenith, Bell Labs, Kodak...
It's sad, but it's life, HP hasen't been a "high tech" company foe several years, they have been a "re-brander" of Chinese consumer products.
Re: (Score:3)
All of my calculators used to be HP
Mine still are. I use an HP48gx, and run HP48gx emulators on my Mac and my iThings when my real 48gx isn't within easy reach.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Ironically all of those companies moved plants over seas. Now the owners of the plants have displaced them with copies of the products that made the original companies big. Who needs high priced suits in New York or San Josey? That is why there is so much crying about patent infringement. Once the patents are up, the people you used to bypass giving someone a living wage take over and kick you out.
Re: (Score:2)
My HP-97 is still running like a champ.
Re: (Score:2)
in fact, even HP can't do a world class calculator anymore. for that, take a bullshit business grade HP calc and reload opensource firmware on it!
http://commerce.hpcalc.org/34s... [hpcalc.org]
I bought a vinyl overlay, a new hp30b and was able to install new firmware, making it the calc that hp can't seem to do on their own, anymore.
when USERS can create calculator firmware that blows away what the vendor, HP, can do, HP has clearly jumped the shark.
Re: (Score:2)
Philips is still a good, solid brand. The others are HORRIFIC examples.
Kodak is a failed company, who sold their brand in the liquidation sale, to cheap Chinese crap manufacturers.
Zenith failed miserably in the 90s, and was bought out by LG, who make a few products with the Zenith name on them. Hasn't turned to shoveling crap like Kodak and Polaroid, but basically non-existent.
Bell Labs is a sad story, too.
Re:It's sad what has happened to HP (Score:4)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:It's sad what has happened to HP (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
but: the talent that made HP has long ago left!
no one I know aspires to work for HP anymore. its not a choice place of work anymore.
not sure what quality of person still works there. like SGI, it was once a giant and the talent pool was first-class; but like SGI, there's no talent left and its a shell of what it once was.
(funny that they both used to be big unix workstation companies, too)
Re: (Score:2)
Agilent still makes cool, quality stuff as far as I know. Expensive as always, though. The modern stuff running linux or windows doesn't feel quite the same as old, hefty CRT stuff... which is all I can afford anyway, but still looks to be built well.
I think of them as HP, and "HP" as the shitty consumer products division that it fled from.
Re: (Score:3)
The low-end Agilent 2000 series scopes are actually quite affordable, and they give a *lot* for the price. Plus, they're upgradable in every way (except 2/4 channels) so you start with something basic and upgrade as needed.
If you can afford it, the 3000 series
Re:It's sad what has happened to HP (Score:5, Insightful)
Hewlett-Packard . . . ? A company built up by great engineers, run down by bad MBAs . . .
Re: (Score:2)
and they are also reduced to producing shit for handheld dmm's:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/t... [eevblog.com]
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/t... [eevblog.com]
agilent used to be good. for high end gear, they probably still are; but it seems they have fallen down quite a bit over the years.
HP - they are useless, now. when they were more than a printer-ink company, they were a force to be reckoned with. now, they are a printer-ink and pc whore.
how the mighty have fallen ;(
Re: (Score:3)
No longer Agilent anymore since the life sciences division is the big money maker and they spun out the true HP T&M group with the stupid name of Keysight. I dream of HP going bankrupt soon and Keysight buying back their rightful name at auction for a pittance.
Re: (Score:2)
I've been waiting for ink prices to follow MP3 players, VCR's, DVD's etc in the price drop. The funny thing is this hasn't happened, so the expectation is not met leaving a market vacuum the same way physical CD's have dried up due to inflated prices. How is the sound track of music for a DVD more expensive to produce and distribute than the DVD?.
The high price for ink is creating alternatives to printing. This is being filled by other companies, and alternatives to hard copy.
Case in point. I have an HP
Re: (Score:2)
Apparently you haven't read my other posts. As I explained a while ago, existence is the problem [slashdot.org]. Please excuse yourself from the conversation until you have had time to review the extensive writing I have done on the topic. Thank you.
Just think of how much they'd save if they just (Score:5, Insightful)
got rid of ALL the employees!
I suggest they start at the top!
Blueprint for success (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Build a product people want to buy. Do not shit on your customers. (HP is now failing here)
2. Support your products to a reasonable degree. (HP is failing here too)
3. Treat employees like valued portion of the business. (Huge HP failure here)
There you have it. The SROP (standard republican operating procedure) is now being followed at HP. HP is on a death spiral into garbage land. A few key wealthy republicans are profiting massively, and working people are getting screwed.
Re: (Score:2)
Do you remember her campaign? Vote for me - I know how to run a government like a business. It turns out - no she doesn't.
I'm sorry - but if you dish it out you have to take it too.
NOT a Democrat (Score:2)
No, not a Democrat, just a troll who knows that there are overly sensitive people on Slashdot. He knows what to say to yank their chains. It obviously worked on you.
How about cutting severance packages first? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
They needed to give each other the money they made selling off DEC IP to each others future patent troll companies before the left.
1) Direct the company to buy IP from another company.
2) Sell the IP off to patent trolls.
3) Leave with a golden parachute to run the patent troll company.
4) Watch the people left behind loose their jobs.
Re:How about cutting severance packages first? (Score:5, Informative)
CEO Carly Fiorina served from 1999 to 2005, since then it looks like HP has had 5 CEO's including the current one
Carly Fiorina - July 1999 to Feb 2005 - $20m severance
Robert Wayman - Feb 2005 to Mar 2005 - $3m cash bonus - Interim CEO
Mark Hurd - April 2005 to Aug 2010 - $12.2m severance
Cathie Lesjack - Aug 2010 to Sep 2010 - $1m cash bonus, 2.5m stock grants - Interim CEO
Leo Apotheker - Sep 2010 to Sep 2011 - $7.2m severance
Meg Whitman - Sep 2011 to Present
So I was exaggerating a bit, but lets look at this from a worst case scenario.
From 2005 to 2011 (6 years) HP had 6 CEO's, that's an average of a CEO a year (not really, because we're taking the end of one's career and the beginning of another, but like I said, worst case). Not including their regular "pay", they took home a total of $45.9m in severance pay, an average of $9.18m per CEO not including Meg, who has yet to receive a severance package (we're waiting..). Basically, that's 9.2m for each for being fired. Here's the crazy part. The Interim CEO's, who by all accounts did a fine job (looking mostly at Robert Wayman), got paid less than those who were "let go" (namely Mark Hurd and Leo Apotheker)
So things aren't quite as bad with the CEO's as I seem to have remembered, but I still feel like that's fairly abismal performance for a company that has been falling off a cliff since... well, since I can remember. Granted I'm young compared to some of you, but I can remember the days before Carly Fiorina, and a time I wouldn't go near HP computers because of how terrible I thought they were, for a variety of reasons that's pointless to debate here.
HP (Score:4, Interesting)
Innovation? (Score:2)
Re:Innovation? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Its funny - the CEO at most corps are one of the few employees with an empoyment contract.
Brought to you by: (Score:4, Interesting)
Capitalism.
More info here: https://www.adbusters.org/
Re: (Score:2)
But why doesn't it also work the other way? How come the multi-milion dollar paychecks and share payouts to the board of directors aren't the first thing to go when the company does badly? Its even strictly speaking their fault right? They set policy and direction that resulted in poorer performance, or failed to anticipate changing markets. They did poorly at their jobs.
Because a company is simply a vehicle for putting money (from whatever sources) into the hands of its shareholders. How many times have
Brought to you by the campaign to re-elect.... (Score:5, Insightful)
It proves that if you can give a corporation tax breaks and throw off the shackles of regulation, they will do better and want to hire more people. Oh...wait.
Re: (Score:2)
But they did hire more people...in Asia
one device to rule them all (Score:2)
They could totally turn themselves around if they offered exactly what just about everybody wants..
A ROCK SOLID home multifunction office machine. Rock Solid meaning slick bomb-proof drivers as well as a machine that didn't crap out on a black and white report because the yellow ink was low. This machine would also need a paper feed that didn't require the moon to be in proper alignment during a squirrel sacrifice in order to feed mostly whatever you put it in.
Then, offer them like cell
Re: (Score:2)
...
Then, offer them like cell phones. Charge less up front but only a bit less. Quit selling junk and hoping to cheat everybody on ink. Let me sign up for a quality service and ink renewal plan that works like a cheaper version of a smart phone. Make it as trouble free and pain free as your average smart phone. I'll sign up tomorrow.
Yes, just like cell phones. You only get to print 1000 sheets of paper on your current plan and it cost an extra $5 per page printed above that.
And I could go on, but I think everyone gets the point.
Re: (Score:2)
> Rock Solid meaning slick bomb-proof drivers as well as a machine that didn't crap out
I'm afraid HP desktops took on the "planned obsolescence" model around the time they bought Compaq. They've done the same for personal color printers, which are _much_ more expensive if you try to make them robust. Instead they make their money on the ink, and they make their deesktop and laptop money on the high turnover.
Unfortunately, similar attitudes seem to have infested their servers, which are no longer the reli
Re: (Score:2)
HPC clusters and cloud providers. Several financial exchanges (CME, NASDAQ) appear to be in the process of adopting Infiniband, but every reference I see sounds like a press releases from Mellanox and not yet a demonstrable application.
Re: (Score:2)
A ROCK SOLID home multifunction office machine. Rock Solid meaning slick bomb-proof drivers as well as a machine that didn't crap out on a black and white report because the yellow ink was low.
Ok, so current HP cheapo multifunction machines are not garbage at all. Case in point: HP 3070A. Does not crap out on B/W report because the yellow ink was low. Super easy to use. No bugs either on computer driver side or printer firmware. Wireless printing and scanning work flawlessly. You can even choose the scan function on the printer, a list of hostnames pops up on the printer LCD, you select one and press OK, after scanning your My Documents on your computer pops open automatically with the document i
I can smell the curry, already! (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
sadly, this is the standard operating procedure for the bay area, at least. it seems every local company is filled with immigrants and to find a local walking in the hallway is a rare sight.
you know the drill and the standard term for it: race to the bottom.
HP is no different from all the rest. respect for employees is non-existent and employees are expected to 'pay' the price for any bad performance of the company.
in fact, standard operating procedure for the bay area is not to even hire fulltime people
Re: (Score:2)
More head-wobblers. Just what people need.
Slashdot Login Page has expired SSL certificate (Score:4, Informative)
Just in case other people notice, the SSL certificate for the Slashdot login page expired today.
Re:Slashdot Login Page has expired SSL certificate (Score:5, Informative)
It sure did. Working on getting it fixed now. Apologies if it inconvenienced you!
Badly run company does badly... (Score:4, Insightful)
Shocking.
HP is screwed up. Who actually likes their products anymore that has a clue? Even their printers are nothing special anymore. That company has no market. The only time I see HP stuff as at big box stores where they're competing for the least informed computer purchases.
Does the smart money buy HP? When was the last time it did?... Exactly. HP is a dying company.
Current management needs to get the axe and the company needs to be restructured there after.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
IBM is nothing to brag about either!
they are 90% offshore staffed. if you are an american, do not even bother applying for a job at ibm anymore.
I would not touch IBM shit today with a 10 foot pole.
I call BS (Score:2, Interesting)
Unless you were comparing ancient P-class HP blades to more recent IBM blades, "no contest" and "junk" are both complete and utter BS. I've also managed a variety of blades and rackmount servers for 10+ years and they're on par with each other, each having both advantages and disadvantages. I actually prefer the HP blades (C-class), especially as of Gen8. The old P-class blades were an interesting attempt but not quite there yet. HP discontinuing the P-class and superseding them with the C-class was the
Re: (Score:2)
HP still has a market in the enterprise space. They're probably still at the top of the heap in mid-range laser printers, and their servers have certainly been far more reliable than Dell's. Their switches are decent, even though Cisco is eating everyone's lunch.
You're talking about the consumer space, which is low-margin crapola, they'
Re: (Score:2)
Why would I buy HP stuff in the enterprise space when there are dozen companies that do it better, offer better support, and generally give their customers less grief?
What does HP actually do well anymore?
You say their laser printers are good? Are they great though? Because honestly, there is a lot of competition there and I'd avoid HP on principle at this point.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
However, their laptops look like cheap knockoffs of MacBooks.
The HP Envy machines do look like MacBook Air. Others? No. The common EliteBook, ProBook, and the consumer 6xx/2xx or Pavilion line do not look like MacBooks. They are your basic sleek black machine.
Fire all the workers. Brilliant! (Score:3, Insightful)
MBA1: We should fire all the workers, look how much money we would save. MBA2: Brilliant!!
Hey at least she is only breaking HP. (Score:3)
She can't outsource American citizens and make things appear better; that is, other than deporting a bunch of people... which was probably in her campaign platform. (No, I'm not saying that would help the country but it would be consistent reasoning.)
So... did HP rob the pensions yet?
How can anybody let her get away saying such extreme BS like that? Corporations and capitalists LOVE to fire employees. That is point of the game; to pay as little as possible and get as much for the shareholders as p
HP - Great Name - Good Riddance (Score:2, Interesting)
As others have commented, HP used to be a great company. I have a stack of what used to be very expensive electronics test equipment in my home lab, all of it with an HP label, except for a Tektronix scope. The equipment I have is between 20 and 50 (!!) years old but it works flawlessly and accurately.
HP started Silicon Valley.
But Hewlett and Packard died and the bean counters took over.
HP is the poster child for how greed can completely destroy a company. Simple case in point, an "honest broker" would
Re:HP - Great Name - Good Riddance (Score:5, Interesting)
I discovered the big problem in American business today: Executives can make big money by running a company aground. Enough money so that their grandchildren won't have to work.
Greenspan thought companies would self regulate. His mistake was subtle: He assumed that the leadership of the company needed the company to be healthy in order for the executives to prosper. But a new pattern emerged: executives could engage in behavior which could yield a multiple-lifetime supply of wealth by engaging in practices which ultimately destroyed the company.
And that's what happened to the financial sector in the US. And doubtless other companies which yield this particular prize.
I don't know what the common underlying reason is but this is the common symptom - being able to make the Big Score by running a company aground.
stupidity escalation (Score:2)
The entire premise of this post is built on stupidity escalation.
Corporations often pass off short-term financial hardship (mainly of the cash flow variety) as a legitimate reason to prune staff—generally fooling no-one, yet successfully biding time in the PR war saying nothing much at all until some new outrage of the moment shifts the spotlight to a different circus ring. Among the best-paid professionals in our society are the engineers of running issues aground against the acidic shoals of going n
Sooner or Later... (Score:2)
HP is not the company it used to be (Score:2)
Those days are long gone.
The Woz came from there originally and almost never left because the environment for engineers was just that good but the money grubbing CEOs and B.O.D. killed all that long ago
Today HP shares only 2 letters with it's former glory and that is not nearly enough.
HP needs to just die and go away - soon.
"No company likes to decrease the work force..." (Score:2)
It's kind of embarrassing how loudly I lol'd when I read that line.
competing for the 'mediocre crapware' market (Score:2)
It might have worked in the past, but now the mediocre crapware market for everything is dominated by Chinese companies.
Re:Meg and Carly sitting in a tree (Score:4, Informative)
She might save HP, actually.
But she could devastate the local economy and thousands of families to increase the already profitable company's margin even more for the rich shareholders.
But hey, there is a silver lining - at least she only fucking over 16,000 HP employees and not 1M+ California employees as governor...
Re:Meg and Carly sitting in a tree (Score:4, Insightful)
Apparently, that is how capitalism is supposed to work.
Shareholders get wealthy at the expense of the rest of the economy.
They teach this stuff in school these days. So it must be true.
Re:Meg and Carly sitting in a tree (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Same difference, since most of upper management's income is based on stock grants. When they say "so and so CEO made $25M last year" that's not a $25M salary, it's a $1M salary and $24M in stock.
Upper management ARE major shareholders - and that's not by accident, of course. Capitalism may not be fair, but it's not stupid.
Re: (Score:3)
"Capitalism may not be fair, but it's not stupid."
hahahahaha.
Re: (Score:2)
The only thing that really makes sense in this post is the first 5 letters of your username. Wish I would have stopped there. The rest is borderline schizophrenic ranting, you may want to get help...
Re:Steve Jobs Was Ruthless, so cry ... (Score:4, Insightful)
in the last few decades, there has been mass mind-reprogramming that seems to convince people that 'profit above all else, to the exclusion of all else' is what american companies are supposed to be about.
but go back to our grandfather's days and you would find social responsibility (which was hard fought for, during the union days). companies DID care and they DID shoulder the burden during hard times, because they saw value in the INVESTMENT in their work force! it was common for people to work at the same company for 20, 30 even 40 years!
find anyone like that today. I dare you. if you find someone working 20 yrs at the same place, its extremely rare.
this is now how it used to be. and don't accept that this was always how it was and how its meant to be. that's brainwashing by the new capitalists who are no better than white collar criminals, these days.
Re:Steve Jobs Was Ruthless, so cry ... (Score:5, Interesting)
in the last few decades, there has been mass mind-reprogramming that seems to convince people that 'profit above all else, to the exclusion of all else' is what american companies are supposed to be about.
but go back to our grandfather's days and you would find social responsibility (which was hard fought for, during the union days). companies DID care and they DID shoulder the burden during hard times, because they saw value in the INVESTMENT in their work force! it was common for people to work at the same company for 20, 30 even 40 years!
find anyone like that today. I dare you. if you find someone working 20 yrs at the same place, its extremely rare.
this is now how it used to be. and don't accept that this was always how it was and how its meant to be. that's brainwashing by the new capitalists who are no better than white collar criminals, these days.
What has changed my friend is court cases of the 1980's defined the role of a company. The question is who owns the company? The shareholders and big banks won. It is not to make profit. It is to raise the shareprice. It must grow grow and grow and if it gets too high go do splits forever with no end in sight! If a CEO can't perform this then hire someone else who can. It is taught in finance 101 today in any college and was asked during my exam even.
So how does this change things?
1. You can't grow by creating great products when your share is saturated or is no longer a cash cow with competition
2. The emphasis on Engineers getting MBA's does not help the goal of the company. Cost accountants getting MBA's and bean counters making critical decisions and overiding IT and engineering make a better value for raising the share price
3. The only way to get a magical p/e ratio is to raise revenue and cut expenses by sitting on cash and going in debt rather than investing on growth
4. When you are out of ideas SELL or CUT DRASTIC CUTS to gain quarterly updates. When that doesn't work by other companies to get other investors raise the share price or sell it so the shareholders can sell out their high costs and give you the golden parachute for looking after shareholder intestests etc.
How many times did I write shareholder? See the problem? It is a math game today of flipping for computer programs that make entities more wealth.
That is the downside. The upside is newer agile competitors can rise up as HP is killing itself and Lenovo and Asus are taking its place. HP needs to hire more financial engineering majors to tinker with the price through accounting tricks and will cash out when it can't sell computers by selling it to Asus as a shadow of itself etc.
It is sad really but unregulated greed and Wall Street is ruining the whole country. Did you know bankers went to jail setting gold and stock prices! True ... today they do it with HFT supercomputers and do not blink. Why is this legal? But until courts role stakeholders not shareholders only you will continue to see shareholder activists like iKahn screwing things up and cashing in and funding Tea Party and anti union laws to make sure he can make even more money.
This corruption needs to stop
Re: (Score:3)
Steve Jobs I respect.
At least he makes something people like and are willing to buy. If you hate the shiny iTurds you are free not to buy them. However, he does not do the same horrible shit HP does.
HP puts 185 watt power supplies and changes the freaking components on the fly to save $.005 based on market conditions on the same model. So you can ahve +32 different combinations of the the HP 8500???! Sucks when you create an image as I never know which site at work has which HP 8500. They all ahve different
Re: (Score:2)
Steve Jobs I respect.
At least he makes something people like and are willing to buy. If you hate the shiny iTurds you are free not to buy them. However, he does not do the same horrible shit HP does.
HP puts 185 watt power supplies and changes the freaking components on the fly to save $.005 based on market conditions on the same model. So you can ahve +32 different combinations of the the HP 8500???! Sucks when you create an image as I never know which site at work has which HP 8500. They all ahve different hardware which is most likely defective.
I can not image Steve Jobs saying SCREW GREAT PEOPLE! I want cheap labor for our iMac or iPhone. After all talent is a cost and because of my brand I can sell and do no need to innovate?! Less people means we can make more money etc.
Apple would have been dead in 1999 if it were not for the iMac and then the explosion or products that came later based on the products
I guess you don't mean to say that you can't imagine Steve Jobs outsourcing all their manufacturing to China... since that is what they did and continue to do.
Apple dodges billions in tax they rightfully owe the USA. They manufacture everything oversees. They were even using sweatshops until they got called out on it. All of this was done under Steve Jobs. He caused untold damage to US society by following contemporary big business norms to the letter.
Re: (Score:3)
No, one less letter to a newspaper is not going to change their publishing ability.
There are plenty of stupid letters they can still post, since there are no shortage of inane comments people have about topics they don't understand. As you have proven just now...
Re: (Score:2)
Actually this really is non-news. For as long as I can remember, . . at least back to the early 90s . . . HP has regularly announced big layoffs. Every few years they announce that they are getting rid of 10,000-15,000 people, and yet, the total number of people working for HP doesn't go down. The truth is, while all these alleged layoffs are going on, HP continues to hire people.
It used to be that layoffs were bad. it meant that your business wasn't doing well. But now, everyone does The Dance of the B
Re: (Score:2)
read somewhere that to change an organization internally takes 20 years. Everyone must retire, quit or die. so the fastests way tochange things is to lay people off, sell non-performing divisions etc.
Re:non news (Score:5, Insightful)
... and the good performers, innovators, and managers as well. You are left with those who just need a job because they have a questionable resume.
People forget companies do not create great products. PEOPLE DO! I can't make the best widget in the world without the best engineers. ID Software needed John Carmack to make doom back in the 486 days before 3d cards. It was not the brand image that created it. It was the employee.
HP cares more about financially engineering its stock price to rise each quarter and then sell it when it can't maximize than to innovate.
Fiona really did a job on that company. Most of the innovators went to Agilent systems which makes more money than to try to monopolize the pc market which is what Fiona wanted by buying compaq and just focusing on this. Bad bed and the Bill and Hewlett way is gone. As good employers were fired if they did not leave already as senior folks cost money etc.
Re: (Score:2)
I really don't understand people who insist that a company should be forced to take a loss before they cut their workforce. It's the cost of being more efficient. Don't like it? get off Slashdot and write a letter to your local newspaper editor. Inefficiency creates jobs and your posting to Slashdot is putting your local newspaper owner, postman and lumberjack out of work. Stop being a hypocrite about it. Oh, any while you're at it be sure to deliver it down to the drop box in your horse and buggy. Your local whip manufacturer will love you for it.
I don't think you understand how healthy capitalism is supposed to work. Employees of HP are not only providing goods are services but area also potential customers of HP products and services. When you cut and cut and cut, you end up with nobody being able to afford the products your company offers. The lost jobs also have a ripple effect in the local economy. Why don't you stop being a hypocrite. You want to keep your job right? Why should you get to keep yours?
At some point, cutting jobs have a negativ
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That is one of the key problems tho, short term thinking... While reducing headcount may increase profits in the short term, depending on what those staff do you are likely to decrease the viability of the business in the long term.
Cutting down R&D increases short term profits, but then leaves you behind the curve on the next generation of products.
Cutting down support staff can decrease short term costs, but will drive customers away if the quality of service goes down.
I've dealt with such a company my
Re: (Score:2)
The truth is that American business can't support American companies being in America.
Sad, amusing, and true.
Re: (Score:2)
And by being a publicly traded company business decisions are driven by Wall Street, even if they make no long term business sense. If you want to destry a company, go publicly traded with it. Look at what happened to Google.