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Tesla Acquires SolarCity: Little Can Stand in Elon Musk's Way When He Wants Something (cnbc.com) 161
An anonymous reader shares a CNBC report: You have to hand it to Elon Musk. He didn't just sell the deal of his life last week when shareholders of Tesla and SolarCity agreed to a merger. He pulled off the deal amid widespread criticism from business ethics and corporate governance experts who slammed Musk from the moment the $2.6 billion deal was proposed. Any skepticism Musk deserves he created for himself, but that skepticism now needs to move from the deal to something else: Just what exactly have Tesla investors gotten themselves into? Some pundits point to the deal as part of Musk's master plan to create a car powered by solar and to develop batteries that radically change how we generate and store energy. Musk noted earlier this month that a solar roof for cars is "probably" going to be added as an option for Tesla buyers.
But a good place to look at the lingering confusion as the combined electric-car and solar-power company moves forward is the reaction from stock analysts. Musk's vision is so bold that some on Wall Street remain unable to fully comprehend it or, in the least, grasp how it's a catalyst for Tesla shares in the short term. "Whatever the synergies are down the road, it's negative for current holders," said Efraim Levy, analyst at CFRA Research.
Never underestimate the power of (Score:2)
Cold hard cash (or stock options).
May Elon continue his company until the next stock crisis hits!
Re:Never underestimate the power of (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, only Tesla gets taxpayer money... *cough*GM bailout [reuters.com]*cough*.
At least Tesla are pushing forward instead of just continuing to make the same crap as everybody else.
Re:Never underestimate the power of (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed, Musk recently argued that even if the ZEV program gets gutted, it'll probably have little effect on them, because everything is skewed to the big manufacturers. Tesla gets "pennies on the dollar" for every ZEV credit they sell because by design the market is flooded with them, while the big manufacturers get their full value because they have non-ZEV cars to apply the credits to. So something that is supposed to benefit clean car makers does little to actually help them, but by making a small number of ZEVs an established manufacturer gets to make a lot of dirty vehicles, and additional credits cost little to buy
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"Ignore the hundreds of millions of dollars of subsidies I get, because I still can't turn a profit."
That's really what you're saying.
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Perhaps you've forgotten that Amazon's [amazon.com] business plan also required losing money by the truckload for the first several years they existed. Now, children grow up in a world where its laughable to think they might not have gotten the opportunity because investors were too afraid of the nebulous risk of backing a store that only does business online.
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Amazon's continuous losses were such a running joke that even Futurama made fun of it [youtube.com].
Investors, however, aren't as much of morons as the general public and understand the concept of waiting on a profit while a company reinvests its revenue into expansion, in order that the future profit is much greater.
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Telsa made more money last quarter than all the US oil companies combined. If you invest in Tesla, do it because you believe in the long term vision and viability of his company. Not because you want your myopic short term financial results.
Re:Never underestimate the power of (Score:4)
To be fair, GM is pushing forward as well. The Volt and the Bolt may not be as meme-tactic as the Tesla cars are, but they do each represent a significant advancement for electricity-powered passenger cars.
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I don't see how they're pushing forward if my friend, who bought a Volt, had to shop around because the three nearest GM/Chevrolet dealerships weren't even interested in selling the Volt to him.
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I don't see how they're pushing forward if my friend, who bought a Volt, had to shop around because the three nearest GM/Chevrolet dealerships weren't even interested in selling the Volt to him.
Your complaint is about the dealerships, not about GM itself. (The lack of coherence between the priorities of the manufacturer and those of the dealerships is in fact one of the main reasons Tesla decided to avoid selling through dealerships; GM, on the other hand, had no such option, since their relationships with dealers are very long-standing, widely encoded into law, and nearly impossible for them to get out of)
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I mean do they really want to though? Traditional gas vehicles are still their money maker, why rock the boat this early. To me it seems GM/Chevrolet is only keeping up with the trend while Tesla is going balls deep in it.
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The idea behind the Volt is how all vehicle powertrains should be built going forward. Electric motor hooked to modest battery bank and a petroleum engine to charge up the batteries once they fall past a certain threshold.
I have problems giving GM much credit for their handling of the Volt though because it's like they launched it, did a few modest commercials for it and then ignored it. They also didn't produce enough of them to meet initial demands and were slow catching up to that demand so a lot of pe
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The problem is GM, and the rest have not pushed into home power systems and are way, way behind. This is of course behind the corporate propaganda push to downplay Tesla to allow them to catch up. Basically you will be buying a home power system, exactly the same way you buy a car apart from the install, which you would call dealer delivery. Except the power system is installed and attached to your home, which you could buy or lease or just allow the installation and buy the electricity provided. An electri
Re:Never underestimate the power of (Score:4, Insightful)
GM bailout was given to keep the Unions solvent and their members employed.
And, in any case, there being more than one company receiving tax-payer cash does not make Fascism [townhall.com] and Crony Capitalism any more acceptable. Your kind were screaming bloody murder [therxforum.com], when Haliburton was getting government's orders. But now even bona-fide subsidies are Ok?
That SolarCity in particular was owned by Elon Musk's cousins [dailysignal.com] is not mentioned in TFA either — do you think, such tidbit would not ha've been considered newsworthy, had the companies involved were military contractors, coal miners, or oil pumpers?
Re:Never underestimate the power of (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, SolarCity was mostly Owned by Elon himself as well. They are the biggest shareholders, so it was just impractical that these companies where trying to compete while having the same owners. It would be newsworthy of Elon, his cousins and a couple of others who where involved in both Tesla and SolarCity where voting on this merger. But they excluded themselves from the vote, both at Tesla and at SolarCity, and left the vote totally in the hands of minority share holders.
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GM don't try to pass themselves off as discornic uniflake snowupters.
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But I bet you cry when the government isn't helping build out sustainable businesses & creating jobs.
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His network of companies are looking suspiciously like a pyramid scheme. Next he will announce a "Deep Learning AI Cloud" project.
Tesla Vision & Autopilot Fleet Learning fit that bill already
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Other than the actual products being produced.
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Here's a thought (Score:5, Insightful)
Musk's vision is so bold that some on Wall Street remain unable to fully comprehend it or, in the least, grasp how it's a catalyst for Tesla shares in the short term. "Whatever the synergies are down the road, it's negative for current holders," said Efraim Levy, analyst at CFRA Research.
Maybe Musk just doesn't give a shit about short term "investors" that jump around from stock to stock, but rather is more concerned with the long-term sustainability of his company? By owning solar panel production and having the ability to integrate the panels with the cars, it not only frees up reliance on external factors (the need for places to install charging stations for electric cars to remain viable, as well as reliance on many forms of energy) but also reduces the need for them to build out their own charging/battery swap infrastructure, which saves money. It should be obvious to anyone looking at SpaceX and Tesla that Musk is playing the long game.
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Musk's vision is so bold that some on Wall Street remain unable to fully comprehend it or, in the least, grasp how it's a catalyst for Tesla shares in the short term. "Whatever the synergies are down the road, it's negative for current holders," said Efraim Levy, analyst at CFRA Research.
Maybe Musk just doesn't give a shit about short term "investors" that jump around from stock to stock, but rather is more concerned with the long-term sustainability of his company? By owning solar panel production and having the ability to integrate the panels with the cars, it not only frees up reliance on external factors (the need for places to install charging stations for electric cars to remain viable, as well as reliance on many forms of energy) but also reduces the need for them to build out their own charging/battery swap infrastructure, which saves money. It should be obvious to anyone looking at SpaceX and Tesla that Musk is playing the long game.
The long game still needs to pay off somewhat in the short term. The company has run up quite a bit of red ink and nothing they do is cheap.
Another big downturn would bite them very, very hard and many of the people who reserved a Model 3 wouldn't be able to buy the cars.
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The Model 3's are $35k cars.
The average new car today is $33k.
If people can't buy them, a LOT of companies are going to be in trouble.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Congrats.
But the fact remains that the average new car in the US today is over $33k.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/... [usatoday.com]
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I think you must have made an error in your math. Assuming you are in the US, then I think you are probably not including the federal subsidy of $7500 for an electric car, plus many states have additional subsidies (yes, the state subsidy must be reported on your federal income tax the following year, so is not the full face value).
For my personal situation, I have two Nissan Leaf's in my family and know each one cost slightly less than $14,000 out the door, thanks to these subsidies totaling $13,500 off w
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Now, if you want to make the argument that the electric cars are not worth it without the subsidy you might have a case,
I think it goes without saying that the "smart money" doesn't buy new cars at all. My last car was $7500. I've paid about $1100 in maintenance (the bulk of that was in the first 2 weeks just catching some work that needed to be done). And at 10 cents a mile for gas its double to triple the cost of an EV... but I'm starting several thousand dollars ahead of your purchase price, and the car isn't really depreciating. I'll lose 1500k in depreciation over the next 3-4 years. You lost that driving it off the lot
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Already in my state, they are imposing an extra tax for EV's to make up for the lost fuel tax revenue. That's fine. The roads need maintaining.
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Washington State of course. How could you not see EV's? They're everywhere. Leafs, Chevy Volts especially. And I have a little game I play. I count the number of Tesla's I see each day. It averages about 4-6 and it seems the number is increasing.
The state tacks on a $100 fee for registering an EV in addition to any other fees car owners pay to register their vehicle. This is to offset the loss of gas tax revenue and to pilot a transition away from fuel taxes as the primary finance device for road mainten
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I'm unaware of anyone getting 50% from government rebates, and even then its tax rebates(but I'm not seeing expired...).
And that $7500 is a tax credit, most people with families and owning a home would take multiple years to see that back. That's a hidden cost of $500-$1000 depending on interest and number of years.
You're also purchasing a cheap one with very limited range, up to 100 mile range, that will work as a commuter car, would have to be supplemented by use of another vehicle for anything more than
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Stupid is a bit extreme, but does fit well with a large portion of them.
But along the lines of what others are pointing out.
1. They are what makes it possible for you to even buy used cards only a few years old.
2. Standard of living includes the car.
3. I will give the cost of the loan could be lowering their standard of living, especially those always in new cars....
However, I am with you in buying the few years old, but hold on onto them longer than you. When I've been asked about getting an electric car,
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"never individually bought a car that cost more than $15k" You must be buying used or just buying the absolute cheapest new cars on the market. Don't compare used cars to new cars. You're absolutely right about the depreciation. The smartest thing to do financially is buy a 3 year old car with low miles. It's nearly 50% cheaper, but still practically new.
Now that that's out of the way, let's talk apples and apples. Looking forward to the Model 3, assuming a $35k MSRP, the 5 year TCO should be lower th
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My wife and I have a combined income of $170k and have never individually bought a car that cost more than $15k. Primarily because it is a purchase of an object that depreciates faster than any other necessary purchase, so basic logic dictates you minimize the cost. Also, we've done the math on the cost of electric vs. gasoline and figured out that you'll never make back the price premium for a hybrid or an electric car during your ownership. Subsidies or no subsidies, the math is similarly bleak.
The only reason car manufacturers are in business today is an overabundance of credit and stupid people who aren't putting two and two together about this. I say stupid because they are lowering their standard of living by buying huge SUVs or alternatively expensive hybrid or all-electric vehicles.
It all depends on the math since not everything is a zero-sum game. I drive a beat up honda civic 1998. The muffler just fell of and I have in the trunk. I'm pretty much driving that shit until it dies, and probably I will just lease a cheap car since my work commute is relatively small.
OTH, my wife and I pooled money together to get a Prius V, paid in cash. We went around multiple dealers, putting them on the phone against one another until we cut so much off the price tag, we made the dealer shave off 8
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Also, we've done the math on the cost of electric vs. gasoline and figured out that you'll never make back the price premium for a hybrid or an electric car during your ownership
I would like you to share that magic equation that literally eliminated the many many assumptions that go into determining which vehicle is cheaper to own in a specific scenario.
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But you didn't do the math on maintenance costs for ICE vs electric, did you?
That's hammering nails into the coffin. You would have to include the cost of replacing the battery pack on an electric car.
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The united states.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/... [usatoday.com]
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Do you know what janissaries were, fatty?
No, they aren't the guys who clean the floors and empty the bins.
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The Model 3's are $35k cars.
The average new car today is $33k.
If people can't buy them, a LOT of companies are going to be in trouble.
Most of those other companies have lower-cost cars or CPOs below $35k; Tesla doesn't.
Perhaps a lot of the early-stage reservation holders may opt to lease to ride out a downturn but many more will defer - or cancel and want their money back, which has already been spent.
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And lower priced cars have lower margins.
Regardless, doesn't change the fact that the average price of a new car is still over $33k.
http://mediaroom.kbb.com/new-c... [kbb.com]
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What's the MEDIAN price for a new car?
Very good question.
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And they have lower margins. So, other companies in trouble too.
Regardless, the avg price of a new car is still over $33k.
http://mediaroom.kbb.com/new-c... [kbb.com]
Re:Here's a thought (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe Musk just doesn't give a shit about short term "investors" that jump around from stock to stock, but rather is more concerned with the long-term sustainability of the planet?
FTFY.
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TESLA wasn't about money, it was about Elon Musk and determination to do the right thing. That is made money is a vindication of the theory that you should fol
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Yes, the classic gambit: tie up all of your assets in a couple companies, then bail on said companies. A great way to make a mint!
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Building large factories isn't 'enriching himself'.
Moron.
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Building large factories isn't 'enriching himself'.
Moron.
But do we know that he's actually building the large factories and not just pocketing the cash for his alien lizard overlords to finance their invasion of Earth?
I've never seen him outright deny this.
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He already has all the money he needs.
So seems unlikely
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But with today's solar panel technology, even suggesting putting solar panels on a car is idiotic. One day's worth of charge in the middle of a non-cloudy summer day will let you drive what, one or two kilometres?
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Mostly the panels go on the roof of the house. Which kinda requires storage if your car isn't at your house during daylight hours.
I did the math on this once... if while parked, car roof panels folded out over the windshield (doubling as a blind) and the front hood, and
the car was parked faced into the sun then there'd be enough collected to make a significant contribution to a commute, but if you wanted to
do it entirely this way, you'd best have a very short commute. That's about the best case scenario.
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The Model S is a luxury car, and luxury buyers tend pay a lot for features that aren't exactly practical. If buyers think integrated
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I always thought the point was to have roof-top solar cells on the home or car-port to offset the electricity used to charge the Electric vehicle. Additionally used batteries that were a bit too soggy to used in a vehicle would still have plenty of capacity and charge-rate to serve as a store for excess power for a household to use in the evening and potentially for load-leveling the Grid.
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There's a lot of difference between 1~2km of range and two hours of driving.
My point is, what's the absolute best case scenario from having a solar panel on a car with the current solar panel technology? Is it even worth it?
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Generally not, at least not with today's solar technology. Back when Aptera was looking at this it was much discussed. You add weight, cost, and potential problems (e.x.: Aptera bailed on the concept after preventing moisture ingress turned out to be easier in theory than in the real world) that's just not proportional to the power generated. It just makes a lot more sense to put the panels in fixed locations than to carry them around.
If the state of the art was a highly durable thin-film that could be "w
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A 300 Watt solar panel (whose dimensions would allow you to strap one directly to a Model S roof and still keep the sun roof) would take about 300 hours to charge a 90kW battery from 0 to 100%.
90kW comes out to ~403 miles, at 50 miles per hour, with no air conditioning, according to Tesla. [tesla.com]
Or about 4.47 miles per kW.
So... charging with a single 300 W panel strapped to the roof, for 12 hours of sunlight, it comes out to about 3.6 kW or about 53.64 miles.
Meaning that if your daily commute is around one hour -
Correction... shouldn't use math if tired... (Score:2)
Or logic... How did I get those 53 miles is beyond me...
It's ~16 miles. So... Still just about worth it AT triple the surface, more if driving 45 mph.
I should really get some sleep. XD
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Your math is way off. A 300W panel would maybe get you a mile or two after being in the sun all day.
So is yours. (Score:2)
I corrected "my math" almost immediately to ~16 miles for 12 hours in the sun and 300 Watts.
I was tired like a dog and half asleep with a pounding headache writing that post. Still... my estimate was only about three times too big.
What's your excuse for an estimate that's more than ten times too small?
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An integrated power pack/inverter/Tesla charger would be a brilliant marketing opportunity. Every time the person goes out into their garage they see that unused charger sitting there.
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The problem with integrating it into cars is that it isn't efficient enough. If you consider that most solar panel installations require that they be placed at the best angle to the sun and that cars are not going to be at the correct angle, likely to be under shade/snow/garage, and the surface area of the car is low compared to typical roof installations, the maximum power from integrated solar cells is extremely low.
Even if you used solar paint and solar windows for maximum surface area, you won't be abl
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Assuming high-end 200 W/m^2 panels, that gives a peak generating capacity of 800 Watts. The capacity factor [wikipedia.org] for solar in the continental U.S. is about 0.145. That's the ratio of actual po
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Honestly, I figured he was just lining up all the technology he needed for a future Mars base/colony.
Still needs more in terms of habitat design and environmental controls although that could be piggybacked into manned SpaceX programs.
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Solar panels on the average house plus storage can be enough to power a house and your car. Couple that with Wind and other renewable energy sources you can charge your storage unit at night with clean power from the grid. Getting solar roofs on enough houses means more options and suddenly you have significant electrical capacity to create microgrids in neighborhoods and suddenly it becomes obvious that the century old practice of centralized energy production and transmission grids is expensive and obsol
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The point about solar city was to put solar panels on your house. You charge your powerwall during the day and fill up your Tesla 3 at night.
Simple really.
Re:Here's a thought (Score:4, Informative)
A different way to think about it is that many investors would be poorly advised to invest in Musk's projects, because he plays the long game, and those investors are looking at the short term for quick, certain payback. If they are checking the DOW every five minutes, and sweat the slightest dip, they may want to look elsewhere.
Investors who can wait - really wait - and easily tolerate uncertainty should look at folks like Musk. Amazon, too, was misunderstood by Wall Street. Wall Street doesn't tend to get "long term".
It is a matter of fitting one's investment to one's perspective.
Hmm... (Score:2)
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Electric car subsidies are already limited to a specific number of cars per manufacturer (with some rounding to end of quarters, etc.) in the US. Tesla is confident they can make a car that will sell fine without the subsidy. (I personally don't think this is fair, since the oil industry is basically heavily subsidized directly, and also indirectly letting everybody else pay for the cost of pollution. A proper CO2 tax, that would actually cover that cost, would more than double the price of fossil fuels, ma
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Oh, you mean how car stocks tank every time there is a vehicle fire?
Tesla should be a "B" corporation (Score:5, Interesting)
Obviously, Elon Musk has a direction he's planned for the world, not just for Tesla, and he's going that way and damn the stockholders if they aren't interested in being there for the ride.
This is all fine, but the corporate governmental structure that would fit it is to be a "B" corporation [bcorporation.net]. Then your stockholders know what they're signing on to and the courts don't get to hold you to producing profit without regard for the long-term viability of your company or the world around it.
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What utter tripe. Don't want courts to hold you to "profit uber alles"? Don't declare that as your intent in your corporate charter.
There IS NO LEGAL DUTY whatsoever for any corporation to "maximize shareholder value" or "increase profitability" or any other such thing. This "B Corporation" thing is a marketing gi
Little Can Stand in Elon Musk's Way (Score:2)
Except pesky physics, which still refuses to budge.
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Regardless, 0 - 60 in 2.4 seconds ain't too shabby. Time to test the brakes...
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Except pesky physics, which still refuses to budge.
Hey, they are just laws, and we all know laws are for breaking......
Really Elon? (Score:5, Funny)
Well, OK. But stay away from white Persian cats. That'd be a little on-the-nose.
Solar City... (Score:1)
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I came across one table at the old location where someone practically raped the pine needles off a small Christmas tree.
Probably one of those new "ecosexuals" [ucsc.edu]. And yes, that's apparently an actual thing now, and not just some joke about extremist eco-hippies. And no, they don't get nature's consent first, presumably.
I swear, it's becoming harder and harder to parody the left when so many of their own have become parodies of themselves.
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I swear, it's becoming harder and harder to parody the left when so many of their own have become parodies of themselves.
I very much doubt anyone will be able to top the Trump parodies for the next four years.
Solar paneled cars (Score:1)
note worth it (Score:2)
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What DOES matter is that only 2 cars have ever bothered with solar for HVAC usage, and both stopped it because it was NOT WORTH IT.
And if you really want it, you should buy a car and put it on, OR go to china and get them to do it since they like wasteful things there.
Huh? (Score:5, Informative)
Elon Musk most certainly wanted this to happen, but he actually recused himself from the actual vote, citing conflict of interest.
That being said, good for him and other Tesla investors (I don't own any stock in any individual company, but I own mutual funds which own just about all stocks in the market) for looking a little bit at the long game rather than the next quarterly profit.
Minecraft.... (Score:5, Interesting)
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The difference being that Minecraft actually makes a PROFIT. TSLA, not so much....
Re:Minecraft.... (Score:5, Funny)
"We destroyed the planet sure, but for a brief beautiful moment there we were really creating value for the shareholders"
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Way to make his point.
And actually pull up Tesla's financial report before spouting that nonsense. I'll help. http://files.shareholder.com/d... [shareholder.com]
See the lines "Revenues" and "Cost of Revenues", where the former is greater than the latter. That's profit. Something tells me game developers don't require billions of dollars in capital expenses for manufacturing facilities, service centers, etc. Geese, why do I bother. You're probably just trolling.
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Tesla announces first quarterly profit in over three years
http://nypost.com/2016/10/26/tesla-announces-first-quarterly-profit-in-over-three-years/
Transformation (Score:2, Informative)
Tesla is now building in Autopilot 2 into their vehicles and they provided a new demo video of the code that will eventually be enabled on the vehicles shipping today:
https://www.tesla.com/videos/a... [tesla.com]
The acquisition of Solarcity has to do with turning Tesla into an integrated transportation company including the energy and the vehicles. Tesla is uniquely positioned for the coming changes in transport, both at the individual vehicle level and in commercial trucking.
The acquisition also has to do with the tra
yeah, mullaney HATES musk (Score:2)
The best way to figure out how Musk is doing is to check Mullaney's postings and as long as they continue to say, that he expects musk to fail, tell you that Musk is doing JUST FINE.
And Totally understand why AC posted. Chances are high that it is Mullaney himself.
Right (Score:1)
Linking articles from credulous, retweet "journalists" and energy/auto industry sock puppets? Nice to know Slashdot has no problem with fake news.