Why Are Japanese Men Refusing To Leave Their Rooms? 770
fantomas writes "The BBC reports on the Japanese phenomenon of Hikikomori: young people, mainly men, who are holed up in rooms in their parents' houses, refusing to go out and engage with society. 'A conservative estimate of the number of people now affected is 200,000, but a 2010 survey for the Japanese Cabinet Office came back with a much higher figure - 700,000. Since sufferers are by definition hidden away, Saito himself places the figure higher still, at around one million. The average age of hikikomori also seems to have risen over the last two decades. Before it was 21 — now it is 32.' Why is this happening? And is it a global phenomenon or something purely due to Japanese culture? (We're all familiar with the standing slashdot joke of the geek in their mom's basement, for example.)"
Universe 25 (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe they are the human versions of the "beautiful ones" from John Calhoun's mice experiments with overpopulation?
Re:Universe 25 (Score:5, Insightful)
If I had mod points you'd get them. This is the kind of interesting stuff that keep me visiting /.
Re:Universe 25 (Score:5, Informative)
Mouse utopia/dystopia, as designed by John B. Calhoun: CABINET // The Behavioral Sink [cabinetmagazine.org]
Re:Universe 25 (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Universe 25 (Score:5, Insightful)
My grandfather had a family tree book for just his side of his family that was several thousand pages think. I remember flipping through it and finding all kinds of people I went to school with that were only six to seven generations removed from myself. A number of them ended up marrying and never knew the difference. At one point I moved from Nova Scotia, Canada to Laurinburg, North Carolina and there was one family living there that was related to me through my grandfathers side. It's a pretty small world.
Re:Universe 25 (Score:5, Insightful)
Much simpler explanation: it's parents codling their sons. Says as much right in the summary: they live in their parent's house. You can't stay holed up in a single room unless you're being supported or have taken serious preparations. The parents are supporting the hermits and have been over sheltering of them to get them to that point. It's hardly a mystery. "Why are they refusing to leave their rooms?" Because they're weak and are being allowed to. Stop feeding them. They will find the strength within themselves to put on clothing and walk outside of their room.
Re: Universe 25 (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope it isn't uncommon for parents to try to drag their kids out. the kids well sometimes fight tooth and nail to stay in there. believe me, there is an INTENSE social pressure to live up to society's demands and the parents experience it as well as the kids. in fact I think it's these kids attempting to avoid this social pressure. Japanese culture is merciless to those who make mistakes or otherwise don't live up to the standards of society.
Re: Universe 25 (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
About ten times the population density of the USA, as an example.
Of countries with >10 million people, it's the number seven in population density.
Hmm, sounds overpopulated to me.
Interesting. (Score:5, Funny)
Read "Welcome to the N.H.K." (Score:5, Informative)
It's the best fictional account of the issue I've seen.
Re:Read "Welcome to the N.H.K." (Score:5, Interesting)
There's an anime version of Welcome to the N.H.K. [gogoanime.com] The first episode describes someone becoming hikikomori. Then it gets worse. It's so painful that when it ran on Japanese TV, a public service announcement of a help line for hikikomori ran with each episode.
Re: (Score:3)
They should have no problem. I've worked for a bunch of engineering companies and they seem to have no problem hiring people with barely any English skills.
Re: (Score:3)
So you've been to Brimingham too?
Because Japanese homes rarely have basements (Score:5, Funny)
Duh.
Internet (Score:5, Insightful)
The Internet can provide you with almost everything you need to survive. When people become disillusioned with life they get consumed by the Internet and find it more home than reality ever was.
How do I know this? I am one of those people.
Re:Internet (Score:5, Interesting)
The Internet can provide you with almost everything you need to survive.
Actually, I'd fine-tune that point a bit: after you have arranged yourself basic survival (food, shelter, etc.), Internet can offer you everything to fill the rest of your life with.
Re:Internet (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah this isn't solely a Japanese issue. This is happening everywhere but perhaps not in the numbers they're seeing in Japanese culture. I'd like to see more data.
Re:Internet (Score:5, Interesting)
I was too; From 1999 through 2003, I was on disability (U.S.) and eating enough to maintain my weight at 450 pounds (sticky keyboard anyone?). I left the house only to foodshop. I don't think I could lived like that without substantial chemical assistance (booze, drugs, or ice cream).
Overeaters Anonymous saved my ass; I'm at normal weight, married, in a 9-5 job. I'm still one shy dude, and can get antisocial at the drop of a hat, but I'm much better than I was.
Re:Internet (Score:4, Funny)
You were living the dream and you discarded it for normalcy. How sad.
practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:5, Interesting)
it's a cultural thing involving japanese and their parents.
I couldn't have holed up in my room if I wanted to, I would have been kicked out sooner or later, probably sooner - and after that if I wanted to hole up I would at least need a job to support that.
practically they depend on the parents to arrange them food, but I wonder what % of these are actually able to pull in income? how active they are socially on the net?
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I've seen some situations where these shut-ins make money with online stuff. Usually it is low income, as you would expect, but some of them are actually accomplished traders or online gamblers. One or two are actually worth millions. Those are the exceptions, of course, but there are some things you can do to make money from a computer, if you never leave your room and never want to.
They can also probably arrange for food deliveries as well, although I imagine that family support is there for most of these people.
I'm not going to take a high ground against these people, I could understand how they might feel. Once I left home, I couldn't bear to return, but I think that I felt very strongly I needed to make a change like that in a way that I don't know if I would now.
It is possible that these people missed out on that stage in your life when you have a strong biological motivation to change your situation from living with parents to living independently. I know that one big reason I wanted to get out was that it was significantly easier to attract, and then have a relationship with a woman when you weren't living at home.
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:4)
I'm not going to take a high ground against these people, I could understand how they might feel.
I have the same sympathy as the (thread!) parent. I feel in some ways we live in an age where traditional societal pressures about who one "should" be as an adult are deteriorating, and I'm personally glad for it. For some people of both sexes never moving out from under the wing of their parents and not engaging with society is something they would want themselves.
It's easy to sneer and call them losers and say it's a societal issue, but at the end of the day who are they harming? I really don't see the problem.
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Not all hikimori (to use the Japenese term) live with their parents. In Japan many hikimori actually go to the 'big city' (ie Tokyo in most cases) trying to get into university and when they fail some of become hikimori living on a stipend form their parents and not leaving their 1-room apartments.
Especially in Japan, but also in other parts of the world, getting into the 'right' school can mean the difference between being 'somebody' and being 'average'. Lots of people are set up to fail if they cannot be 'somebody'.
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I can vouch for that. The ROI on 3D women versus the 2D kind is simply atrocious.
Sure it's marginally better with a 3D woman but the price you pay is outrageous relative to slight increase in satisfaction over my hand, the screen, and some good inebriants. The amount of money saved has allowed me to buy my own place to hide out in rather than having to live with mom and dad.
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:5, Insightful)
So yeah, I guess it's impossible for the people aforementioned to live as shut-ins because there is no financial support from their parents for this kind of lifestyle. But they simply evolved now and kept their social interactions (and interests) to the bare minimum.
I imagine that if they had rich parents who allowed them to do anything, they would live as hikikomoris, but if those japanese shut-ins were forced to go out and work, they would still simply work and socialize to feed their own isolation, in their own little way.
I actually tried understanding why they do what they do, and I was met with an interesting answer, "Why not?".
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why are so few women in IT? Possibly because the field in filled with young men who view women as either 'hot' or utterly invisible.
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:4, Informative)
Okay, now a detailed explanation about my opinion above:
1) I are not, in any means, the "default guy". And this is like a "social death sentence" on my city. I are not rich, not powerfull, not beaultiful. ergo, I are a "outcast" for the average woman;
2) I tried the "social game", I really would like to have friends and girlfriend and in a good way (no "macho" man). But, soon I figured that either you become this despicable "macho" man or nobody will want to know about me. And, I preffer to do not be that;
3) The average woman, trust me, is know to says "A" but actually want "B", and maybe does "C". Of course not all are like that, but so far I have not found one out of this pattern, and I searched a lot;
4) Finally, I REALLY do NOT like confusions. If a woman says "no" I'm leaving, even though she was actually saying the opposite (who said that the "mating ritual" is simple?). Because I do not want to pass in any way by the hassle of having to deal with an enraged woman.
In short? I just weighed all variables obtained over time and came to the conclusion that in the end is not worth it.
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Possibly because the field in filled with young men who view women as either 'hot' or utterly invisible.
Women also view men as either 'hot/cute' or utterly invisible. Welcome to the human race. And as someone who has lived in a number of different cultures let me assure you that this phenomenon is quite cross-cultural as well. Although I have noticed that American women are at least somewhat more obsessed with looks than in some of the other cultures where I've lived. I'd say the biggest difference is that women are more prone to lie about this. Men tend to be more open and honest about it.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Right there you're claiming that 50% of the human population is insane. Presumably, you don't count yourself among them.
It goes both ways. I'm sure the term "insane" here means "uncorrelated to all the psychological patterns known to me." It may be perfectly normal for that other 50%, though.
Clearly not, since you don't respect women.
What is respect, though? Isn't leaving them alone, after acknowledging that he cannot work with them, not a sign of respect? I may respect you, and you may respect me, but we may never travel together - maybe just because we are going in opposite directions; because our goals and our ideals are incompatible. But if I take a whip and start beating you, in attempt to teach you the proper behavior as I understand it, then it wouldn't be respectful at all. Leaving other people alone is the highest form of respect, since it acknowledges that they are right on their own, and they require no "help" to get better.
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:4, Insightful)
I presume you are talking about races within human species. The difference between individuals is stronger across genders than across races. A white man, an Indian man, a Black man and an Asian man have far better chances of forming a stable team than a white man and a white woman. As such, if there are psychological differences between races, they are entirely caused by nurture. The differences between a male and a female are genetic, formed over a long period of time to optimize the chances of survival of the species. (Nature avoids unnecessary complexity; the differences wouldn't be there unless they serve a purpose.)
It's certainly valid to lump an entire demographic together. However I wouldn't place that group into a "negative" category. There are very few demographics, if any at all, that can be painted with such a wide brush. (Maybe some tribe of cannibals?) I don't think the OP intended to do that either. He used the word "insane," but it has meanings outside of clinical use. More commonly it is synonymous to "incomprehensible." All I read there is that the OP acknowledged his lack of ability to understand the opposite gender, and walked away. That's hardly wrong. Some men choose to correct the problem by use of force - and some women accept that. That would be far more wrong, on both sides of it.
Re:practicalities make it impossible.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think what's happening is that people find more interesting conversations on the internet than they can find among the people around them, and it makes the people around them far less interesting by comparison. I honestly don't know anybody besides my wife in meatspace that I would have a conversation with out of anything but politeness. Almost everybody simply regurgitates what they see on cable TV, or talks about their offspring.
Re: (Score:3)
I don't think it is a cultural thing. Have you ever visited reddit? It's just a bunch of twenty-somethings whining about how hard it is to find a job, how much work sucks, how expensive things are, how little vacation Americans get, how expensive school is, blah blah blah... all while justifying to each other in lengthy circle jerks about why they're almost thirty (or, in some cases, over thirty) and still living at home with their parents...
but that is entirely different. living at home is totally different from being enabled to live in one room at home. that needs room service.
for the record I moved out so that I wouldn't need to do stuff like mow the grass and shovel the snow - essentially for laziness sake, moving away from home enabled me to be more of a shut in.
also, maybe, even if they're your peers, you shouldn't hang around on some subreddit for italian 30 something men living with their moms, they're not a good influence you know!
Sounds like my kid (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Sounds like my kid (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sounds like my kid (Score:4, Interesting)
Kicking him in the butt only makes him curl up into a little ball. I've tried both positive and negative motivations and there are no external means that seem to work.
The question was asked if he ever got tired of having no money. That is beginning to motivate him a bit. When the motivation is *HIS* idea, then he acts. That's how he ended up getting the Starbucks interview. I've asked the relations to NOT give him money on his birthday and Christmas, which they have agreed to. Now all he gets is birthday cards and is learning that those two days a year are no longer paydays.
One of his autistic qualities is an almost complete lack of common sense. Really. He is slowly maturing and seems to continue to progress, but at some point, he may become unemployable. My worst nightmare.
Vitamin D, Omega 3s, veggies etc might help (Score:5, Insightful)
Vitamin D deficiency related to depression can be a downward spiral if people then spend more and more time indoors, like in Japan. See my many posts on halth issues and autism including about Mark Hyman and mitochondrial dysfunction and John Cannell. Also look into unschooling for interest-lead learning.
Search also on "The Pleasure Trap" and "Supernormal Stimuli" and "The Acceleration of Addiction" for the pitfalls of 21st century living.
And, from a positive psychology point of view, try to help him build on his strengths, whatever those are.
Politically, lobby for a "basic income" for all. The fact is, most of us will soon be "unemployable" relative to AI, robotics, and other automation (see Marshall Brain), breaking the income-through jobs link that previously undergird the right to consume.
Sounds like a tough situation though. Good luck. Your son is lucky to have a caring involved father like you!
Re:Sounds like my kid (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Charging him for anything would require that he have a way to pay for it.
Then take the internet and games away from him. Then you'll see if he's motivated by something external. He'll find a way to make money; you won't always be there to make decisions for him.
Wont work, he will just lay on the bed 24/7. The only "easy" fix is chemistry (vitamins, antidepressants).
Re:Sounds like my kid (Score:5, Insightful)
OTOH, if you go to suicide discussion groups you will find that many of them are planning to kill themselves for essentially financial reasons. I would ask them, "If you didn't have to work, if you had enough money for food and shelter without working, would you still be planning suicide?" A surprisingly large numbered answered no.
If I had to work a regular shit job and interact with people socially I would almost certainly kill myself. In order to cope with constant negative reinforcement I need at least some positive reinforcement occassionally as well or living just seems like pointless suffering.
It's also important to remember that it is not always easy to find a job when you are antisocial or have social anxiety. It can be nearly impossible even when your standards are very low indeed. After you get rejected for the first 50 shit jobs (like bagging groceries, dishwashing at fast food restaurants etc) you apply for that doesn't exactly encourage you to want to go out into the world either. Again, the only reinforcement out there is negative.
Re:Sounds like my kid (Score:5, Insightful)
I hear ya. I had a 26 year old step-daughter who did get a the job at Starbucks...and got fired for bad attendance within the month. Back to Facebook and Angry Birds, full-time.
Funny, a week after I booted her useless ass out she had a new job at a book store, and within the month had graduated from couch surfing to her own cozy efficiency.
Parents shouldn't whine about their sweet, precious babies laying around their house. They need to put a boot in their ass.
Your kid is incredibly lucky (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the worst economy in 50 years. Outsourcing and H1-Bs have depressed wages heavily. Whether you recognize it or not your daughter has far fewer opportunities than you did. Google "wealth inequity" for a start on that topic and add 'wage surpression' and 'Union Busting' (with a side of Walmart or McDonald's) too.
The hard part here is that you obviously care for your daughter, and so you want to have strong pride in her. You don't want to imagine that she can't overcome the challenges she faces. So you'll tell yourself it's enough to just boot her out and leave it at that, taking a sink or swim approach that ignore the polluted, radioactive water she's swimming in...
Re: (Score:3)
What you refer to are symptoms more than causes. What is killing the economy is mostly the enormous barriers to wealth creation that the average individual (not the already super-rich) faces.
The clear path to prosperity in America used to be to start and run your own business (or help in doing so). There are enormous hindrances to doing such nowadays mainly rooted in the state. In most fields just meeting regulations for your businesses is cost-prohibitive, as is hiring people to help you run that busine
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I had to walk away from a conversation with a twenty-seven year old a couple weeks ago, because he wouldn't shut up about how hard it was to find a job and how expensive an apartment was and this was why he was still living with his parents and primarily on their dime . . . at almost thirty. Sadly, this doesn't seem to be uncommon at all - especially in people from teens to twenties these days.
When I was a kid, in the 90s, the expectation was that you were out of the house by the age of 18. You're an adult
Re:Sounds like my kid (Score:5, Insightful)
Comparing the 2010s to the 1990s isn't fair. The economy was booming, and we still had a middle class. We just went through the biggest recession since the great depression, and the benefits of recovery have accrued entirely to the rich. There's a reason why they call it a "jobless recovery".
Kids may or may not be softer than they were when we were their age. But it's definitely harder out there.
Re: Sounds like my kid (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Yeah, I was illustrating this for the poster above me, who was on the other end of the bell curve. We both are being a bit presumptuous in thinking that our experience dictates everyone's. I didn't mean to imply my experience is the only one.
Re:Sounds like my kid (Score:4, Insightful)
You have a lovely list of buzzwords. It's too bad you think they mean the exact opposite of what they men.
For example, Keynesian economics would require Japan to do the opposite of what they have done since the 1990s.
Then there's the little problem of Japan has not experienced significant inflation over the last 20 years. Nor have they massively increased the money supply over the last 20 years.
But hey, some folks who are as wrong as you are will think your post sounds good.
Where is the problem? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is everyone expecting that everyone wants to socialise???
Seriously. There are so many assholes out there in the meat space, sometimes even more than on Reddit or YouTube comments. So many stupid, brain dead people. So many judging people judging others for superficial stuff.
I'm asexual, rarely meet people who interest me and share my hobbies and my interests.
Movies are all shit nowadays. So why should I socialise more than the minimum (food shopping, deliveries/postal service) ???
Re:Where is the problem? (Score:4, Insightful)
Being an introvert is one thing. Being unwilling to do what's necessary to survive independently is another thing altogether.
Re: (Score:3)
I mostly agree with you. But spend some time in Colombia, Laos, Japan, and maybe Finland (not sure because I only visited briefly) before making up your mind about the whole species. The U.S. is particularly bad in terms of the asshole to nice people ratio.
It is almost impossible for me to make friends in the U.S., but in Colombia it is difficult for me not to make friends and the people are very nice and genuinely so. Lao people are nearly as friendly and kind but the language is tonal and very difficult t
Averages (Score:5, Funny)
So in 20 years, the average age went up by 11 years. That probably simply means that living in your mom's basement is not immediately dangerous to your health.
Indicative of a need in young men? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know about Japan, but it used to be usual in Thailand for young men to be ordained as Buddhist monks, and live a life apart from the mainstream for at least a few months, or a year or two. With the rise of consumerism in Thailand this practice is starting to die away.
In other cultures young men go off for a time to live a cloistered or semi-cloistered life. Even a two or three year stint in the military might qualify. It's not completely cut off from society, but you do live a more spartan existence, in a somewhat separate world with its own rules and protocols, and with lots of time to reflect on what you really want to do with your life.
It could be that hikikomori in Japan is evidence of a need in young men to go off and "find themselves", or whatever. As our increasingly secular, consumerist culture removes other cloistered avenues previously found in religion, military, or school, there may be no option left but to hole up in one's room.
I have nothing to support any of the above, it's just a hunch.
Housing cost probably a factor... (Score:3, Interesting)
This really about porn and video games... (Score:5, Interesting)
This is really about porn and video games... these two things can by themselves provide the brain with enough entertainment, reward, and pleasure to make the real world unnecessary.
First, there is a trauma: he fails to live up to parents expectations regarding education or career, has a heartbreak, loses his job, or whatever. Then he consoles himself with porn and video games. They feel good and he doesn't have to worry about his problems for a little while. If this goes on for long enough and he doesn't receive the right kind of social support, he may become addicted to both and lose the drive to do anything else.
What really happens is he becomes trapped by the dopamine pathways (reward system) in his brain. He is incapacitated by fear and social anxiety when dealing with others because his brain's reward system has been overpowered by the artificial stimulation of porn and video games. The dopamine normally produced by his brain during social interactions doesn't have nature's intended positive reinforcement effects for him because his dopamine tolerance is so high thanks to his addictions.
He becomes further and further withdrawn and does the only thing he knows how to do to feel "normal:" feed his addiction.
This has become a serious issue for young men in other parts of the world as well. It is ultimately made possible by technology, in particular the Internet.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Poppycock.
This is the kind of pseudo-scientific dribble that sends Chinese youth to "correctional" camps for "addiction".
Perhaps the reason a lot of Japanese men are living at home is because the economy has been flat since the 90s.
Conjecture is pointless without a basis in fact.
Re:This really about porn and video games... (Score:4, Insightful)
This is really about porn and video games... these two things can by themselves provide the brain with enough entertainment, reward, and pleasure to make the real world unnecessary.
First, there is a trauma: he fails to live up to parents expectations regarding education or career, has a heartbreak, loses his job, or whatever. Then he consoles himself with porn and video games. They feel good and he doesn't have to worry about his problems for a little while. If this goes on for long enough and he doesn't receive the right kind of social support, he may become addicted to both and lose the drive to do anything else.
What really happens is he becomes trapped by the dopamine pathways (reward system) in his brain. He is incapacitated by fear and social anxiety when dealing with others because his brain's reward system has been overpowered by the artificial stimulation of porn and video games. The dopamine normally produced by his brain during social interactions doesn't have nature's intended positive reinforcement effects for him because his dopamine tolerance is so high thanks to his addictions.
He becomes further and further withdrawn and does the only thing he knows how to do to feel "normal:" feed his addiction.
This has become a serious issue for young men in other parts of the world as well. It is ultimately made possible by technology, in particular the Internet.
What if, instead of it being an "addiction" involving "dopamine pathways" its something far simpler: a logic choice that society sucks ass, offers nothing to them, and isn't worth participating in. This dovetails quite nicely with another japanese problem quaintly called shoshoku danshi (herbivores): A group of men who managed to make it out of their parent's houses but choose to live in inexpensive apartments, not succeed financially, and don't bother to date. They just simply "graze."
All the same symptoms, none of the mental disorder boogeyman.
Japan - where tomorrow happens today (Score:5, Insightful)
1) A lot of things get invented first or just happen first in Asia, particularly Japan. So it's a great window into what to expect tomorrow in the West before it actually gets there.
2) South Korea and Japan seem to have bee hotspots for years of bizarre, anti-social behavior. When they're not committing suicide.
3) I have the impression as an observer (so I have no facts and could be wrong about this) that citizens in Asia in general get less mental help to deal with problems. Possibly there's a cultural reason for this.
4) The internet and various game systems have made it possible for young people to interact from a distance without ever having to leave their rooms.
5) This is going to be a problem in the USA too soon enough. It's just not happening in great enough numbers yet.
The girlfriend pillow (Score:3)
I blame the Girlfriend Pillow [google.com]. With parents to supply food, an internet connection, and one (or more) of those pillows, what reason is there to go out?
Modern life vs. traditional culture (Score:4, Interesting)
Based on what I saw during my 10+ years living there, I'd say it's the realities of modern life clashing with the traditional culture. Japan is a collectivist society; before the Internet came along, if you were deviant/antisocial/etc. (for lack of better terms) you had to suppress that side of you and fit in. However, the Internet opened up a virtual environment where individualism could flourish more; people found an outlet, and even support, for their antisocial tendencies, and little by little it became a lot more comfortable to "live online" than actually having to put up with the social pressures of real life. (Westerners have a tough time understanding the amount of social pressure; even I am still sometimes surprised by the hoops my Japanese wife's family members jump through in order to "keep up appearances".)
Add to this the traditional tendency for extended families to live together into adulthood and you have the perfect recipe for hikikomori: a virtual social life where you are free from judgment and pressure to fit in, and no need to work to fulfill your basic needs of food and shelter. Not the life that I want, but I understand it, anyway.
Big Bang Theory on Outside vs Inside said it best! (Score:5, Insightful)
Rajesh Koothrappali: Come on, Sheldon. The world is filled with people doing things outside; let's go outside. Outside is good.
Sheldon Cooper: If outside is so good, why has mankind spent thousands of years trying to perfect inside?
Rajesh Koothrappali: I don't know. It's a marketing scheme.
Re: (Score:3)
"It's similar to why adult domestic house cats are pretty much adult kittens who would die in the wild."
Nonsense. I've seen far too many of them go feral and survive long enough to have offspring afterwards (in the case they weren't neutered before going feral). And it's not just because someone is feeding them.
Some of them have trouble as they weren't taught effective hunting by their mothers, but lots of them can and do fend for themselves just fine. Yes, they get picked off by coyotes (or coy-dogs) and s
Re:Mammonis all over again. (Score:5, Funny)
"It's similar to why adult domestic house cats are pretty much adult kittens who would die in the wild."
Nonsense. I've seen far too many of them go feral and survive long enough to have offspring afterwards (in the case they weren't neutered before going feral). And it's not just because someone is feeding them.
Some of them have trouble as they weren't taught effective hunting by their mothers, but lots of them can and do fend for themselves just fine. Yes, they get picked off by coyotes (or coy-dogs) and such, but so do a lot of wild small predators.
Basement-dwellers? Survive outside mommy's care? I call bullshit.
FWIW, you had me until you said "survive long enough to have offspring afterwards".
Re:Mammonis all over again. (Score:5, Interesting)
Parents coddle adult kids. The kids have never been encouraged to fend for themselves, and this is the natural result.
Actually it's much closer to the collapse of the Japanese family, more than anything. It's not the coddling, it's the disdain for people, society, and not wanting to go into the massive "grind your face into the dirt" mentality that exists in Japan.
But we're seeing the entire thing play out here with the current generation of kids too. It's just not getting pulled up in the media.
Re:Mammonis all over again. (Score:5, Insightful)
As an American shut-in, when I first discovered the term "hikikomori", I was extremely disturbed but also felt an intense sense of vindication. It isn't just me: many other people feel it too. That sense of realizing how unfair and how grindingly hopeless and purposeless participation in the current socio-economic scam really is.
I don't want to spend my whole life working some shitty job to barely pay rent all while knowing perfectly well that there is absolutely no reason I must do so but that the powerful members of society (a class of individual which is powerful through no other reason than that there has always been such a class) have arranged for this situation. There is more than enough "wealth", there is more than enough resources (food, water, energy) and space (stand on Zanzibar indeed) and labor (technology is a wonderful thing, and 3D printing and robots are perfectly capable of serving my minimal needs and wants if only they would / could be designed so instead of for fabricating ever more useless crap to be sold by the rich and powerful...) to provide everything I've ever wanted and yet I still have to spend almost all of my time either working a dead-end meaningless job for cash for rent and food (did you know that Americans throw away enough food to end world hunger?) or asleep to recover and do it again tomorrow.
The only way to win such a "game" is to not play it.
Escape into fantasy, into an inner universe that isn't so wretchedly repulsive, soul-crushingly grinding, spitefully vicious -- is the only way to stay alive. What if we treated all illnesses the way we treat mental distress? What if we punished the wicked wealthy for hoarding and perpetuating the horror in which we now find ourselves? What if we did magically solve the waste of energy which is leading us into crisis?
The problem isn't resources, it's the evil of those who have the resources. This isn't an immutable property of human nature -- and yet nothing is being done to solve this problem.
So I refuse to participate in a situation that is not only apathetic toward my well-being, but actively, maliciously, greedily abusive of me.
The state of the world is so because of mere history, nothing is being done about it by those who have the power to do so because it is not in their short-term interest.
Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, godlike technology.
Re:Mammonis all over again. (Score:5, Informative)
The karoshi stereotype exists in Japan for a reason. The whole culture seems to be built around working yourself to death. A friend of mine visited there and described life as non-stop work. Guys basically work all day, then face social pressure to go out with the boss at night. Basically, they are "on" all the time. So of course there is a large segment of the population that sees that life and goes "screw that!" and decide not to play the game.
Re:Mammonis all over again. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parents coddle adult kids. The kids have never been encouraged to fend for themselves, and this is the natural result.
No, the problem is parents do not ALLOW their children to fend for themselves. "For oneself" implies a definition of self that has not been set up for inevitable failure.
Student show an iota of initiative and wants to program computers? Father lectures the child that is a way to be a failure. Now the child feels like a loser no matter what he does -- program computers and he is shamed before his family, do what his father wants instead and he is shamed before himself.
Withdrawal is a rational short-term reaction, when one is set up failure by one's family and society. Unfortunately, withdrawal for more than a modest period of time becomes its own self-reinforcing barrier to success.
It may look like coddling from a superficial point of view. From within the closed walls of the family, it is incessant brutal emotional abuse. The hints are there in TFA. The children are physically abusive? That kind of behavior is taught by the parents. There is a partial confession at the end of the article:
"I think my son is losing the power or desire to do what he wants to do," she says. "Maybe he used to have something he wanted to do but I think I ruined it."
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I think the figure of 50% of these children are physically abusive to their parents speaks volumes. Outside of untreated schizophrenia, that is a pretty rare behavior...unless you have been coached for years on how to inflict pain to those you love.
I may be less than fully correct, but careful readers will see that the picture is more complex than simple coddling, as multiple posters are so quick to assume.
Re:Mammonis all over again. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parents coddle adult kids. The kids have never been encouraged to fend for themselves, and this is the natural result.
That's some fine knee-jerk thinking there. Preconceived-notion: parents should be hash with their kids. Random fact: some kids somewhere are having a poor outcome. Conclusion: the only possible explanation is that their parents haven't been harsh enough with them. Never mind that Japanese society is a harsh environment with strict social rules about everything that the kids would have been exposed to from a young age. Never mind that the psychologists don't actually know what the problem is. Truthiness forever!
Re:Mammonis all over again. (Score:5, Funny)
I got mugged by a New York housecat once.
Re:LOL (Score:5, Insightful)
Porn, probably.
And why not? They're living in Schoolgirl Tentacle Porn Central.
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Porn, probably.
And why not? They're living in Schoolgirl Tentacle Porn Central.
Anime fans probably. Being an anime fan carries a high social stigma in Japan. And of course being into anime means liking lolicon, shotacon and all those sexually perverse child porn manga and anime. Japan being the last civilised country where possession of child porn is legal. Go figure. These people are creepy as hell, so no wonder a subclass of those anime fans are even more creepy.
When you account that Japan has a very conservative and group think type kind of society, being individualistic, strange i
Re:LOL (Score:5, Insightful)
Japan being the last civilised country where possession of child porn is legal.
Maybe they're just not foolish enough to have fallen for the group think we have, which is what you accuse them of. Here, an X rated comic strip is considered child porn. A teenager sexting their SO can get them twenty years in prison and permanent listing on the perv roll.
Every society makes choices on what is the acceptable ways to express individuality. Japan, historically, has been fairly excessive that way in comparison to the rest of the world, but that's the way Japanese (historically) roll; to excess. Go was invented in China. Japan raised it to an art including endowing universities to teach it. The Samurai raised warfare to an art. They even raised serving tea to an art.
After all this time since they opened up to the west, many of us can't even begin to understand them. That's pretty amazing in itself.
Re:LOL (Score:5, Interesting)
This, right here.
I understand and feel the revulsion that a healthy adult has towards child porn, but from an objective/legal point-of-view, the West got stupid about how they enforce such laws. Here's why: The basis of laws surrounding it is that the production of child porn harms a child - something that makes perfect sense, and should have laws in place to prevent/limit as much as logically possible. OTOH, who exactly is harmed in a comic strip? One would think that it would present a means of release for those pervs who do get into such crap, and to let them do so without harming anyone in the process. A teenaged kid sexting his/her SO should get a stern talking-to by the parents, and definitely should be enlightened on why that is a monumentally stupid idea - but no, the kid should not get tossed in the slammer and stigmatized for life.
Possession/distribution of actual photography or video depicting actual kids being sexually abused *is* illegal in Japan - because sexual abuse is just as much a crime there as it is in any other civilized country. Hell, if I remember right, distributing photographic/video porn depicting genitalia of *adults* is a crime in Japan (albeit a misdemeanor w/ a heavy fine...) OTOH, the comic/drawn ones can show whatever detail the artist feels like including.
You (tqk) are definitely correct in that Japan is an enigma unto itself, culturally. Millennia of isolation will morph any culture into something that will likely never be understood from any POV outside of it. That said, Japan got hella creative in what their multi-faceted culture is and represents - to themselves. Anyone else could blow off an entire a lifetime trying to understand it.
As for TFA? I can see why it would make sense for some Japanese men to simply withdraw from society... Japan isn't exactly an easy-going culture to live in, competition for anything (females, jobs, status, whatever) is incredibly intense, and there are few other routes available to the typical Japanese man that doesn't involve a shitload of money (e.g. move self and family to another country whose culture you may get on better in.) These men still have a non-negotiable duty to care for their parents, and real estate/rent is frickin' astronomical anyway. They spent nearly every waking hour of their childhood with little outside of intense study and discipline, so it's not like they learned to be social mavens in the first place - they likely only found peace when they were alone.
Hell - even if they do find a job and a wife, they may not leave home anyway. The answer why is pretty simple; If their parents own and don't rent, they stand a better chance of inheriting their parents' home than they do of ever being able to afford one of their own - which is pretty traditional in its own right. In most cases, it's not like they have as much potential competition from siblings, what with smaller family sizes over the decades.
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The basis of laws surrounding it is that the production of child porn harms a child
Citation needed. No doubt that's one reason, but what about the effects of conditioning people (or leaving the legal door open for them to condition themselves, if you prefer) to respond sexually to minors? There are some very good reasons not to encourage or allow child pornography which doesn't directly involve children.
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The basis of laws surrounding it is that the production of child porn harms a child
Citation needed. No doubt that's one reason, but what about the effects of conditioning people (or leaving the legal door open for them to condition themselves, if you prefer) to respond sexually to minors? There are some very good reasons not to encourage or allow child pornography which doesn't directly involve children.
Surely you must realize we have already failed at curbing such conditioning. Watch an hour of random TV or leaf through a few magazines to see how incredibly youth-driven sexuality is generally portrayed and how sexually teens are usually presented. Aspects of youth are painstakingly emulated through makeup or surgery, and the norm is the younger, the better.
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Citation needed. No doubt that's one reason, but what about the effects of conditioning people (or leaving the legal door open for them to condition themselves, if you prefer) to respond sexually to minors? There are some very good reasons not to encourage or allow child pornography which doesn't directly involve children.
1) Seriously - Google. It's not that hard for such a simple concept (besides, I don't feel like tripping work proxy alerts, even if I do have root access to the thing).
2) Conditioning? Outside of a few overly-impressionable people, your hypothesis doesn't hold up. Consider: Paedophilia was once commonly accepted as late as the 17-18th centuries (see also at least half of the females in Casanova's autobiography, Histoire De Ma Vie, if you want some indication of just how common) , and pr0n wasn't exactly com
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Political use (Score:3, Informative)
Child porn laws are frequently abused to target political and business opponents, as under the U.S. federal law, possession of CP is a strict liability and there are NO affirmative defense allowed on it.
This is a case in Sweden where CP was planted in a politicians machine using a remote desktop software, causing failed re-election, stress, and millions of dollars in legal fees:
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/offer-for-porrkupp/ [expressen.se]
Straight from the books (Score:3)
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2010/SUM/2010SUM00191-R02HB-05533-SUM.htm [ct.gov]
"The felony offense of child pornography is divided into three degrees, depending on the number of visual images that the defendant knowingly possesses. The offenses range from a class B to a class D felony."
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2005/rpt/2005-R-0192.htm [ct.gov]
Class B felony - 1 to 20 years up to $15,000
Re:LOL (Score:5, Insightful)
Might also be due to the One Percent moving all the jobs and hope to China, India and South Korea. Lots of U.S. "twenties" are also doing this as well. Those who control the monitarty policies and jobs know very well what they are doing. I am lucky to be in the upper four percent but an increase in H1-B visas could take that all away. We will just pretend that all these things aren't linked together. oh, and it's the porn, speaking of which, I need to go now.
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Lots of U.S. "twenties" are also doing this as well.
Perhaps, but lots of "U. S. twenties" also get out of the house to socialize, find work, and many even live there along with their young wives (and perhaps kids?)
The rest is tinfoil, IMHO - something better ascribed to incompetence (or at best apathy) than to some fanciful malicious plan.
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Pfft... they're just jilted because no girls wanted to lick their eye-balls.
Re:LOL (Score:5, Funny)
Time to get me a Tommy Gun, change my name to Gatsby, and fill a warehouse up with a stack of USB drives with porn.
Soon, Daisy will love me for who I am!
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Re:Want to meet a Japanese woman? (Score:5, Funny)
So what you're saying is that once they go Caucasian, they never go Asian?
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Re:Want to meet a Japanese woman? (Score:5, Informative)
I've heard time and time again, that Canadian (and American) men are highly desired by women in Japan. I've also heard time and time again, that the reason is because too many Japanese men are downright useless and misogynistic assholes. Are you a genuinely nice North American dude with a real job? If so, it really is remarkably easy to meet wonderful women in Japan.
You've heard. The reality is quite different however. There are about 50,000 Americans living in Japan. There are about 40,000 US military personnel in Japan at any given time. Being a military wife might be attractive to some, but for most families in Japan it would be an embarrassment. Because of the high number of US military compared to general Americans living in Japan, if you see a white guy wandering around who isn't wearing a suit, it isn't a bad guess to think he is in the military, and therefore undesirable. The stereotype bleeds over a bit into any american, even if they have nothing to do with the military.
American men are different than Japanese men, but it would be a huge mistake to think or imply that one is more desirable in Japan than the other. And reporting that American men can find a lady in Japan with little or no effort is completely wrong.
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Are you a genuinely nice North American dude with a real job? If so, it really is remarkably easy to meet wonderful women in Japan.
If you're a genuinely nice North American dude with a real job, it is remarkably easy to meet wonderful women anywhere.
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There is a lot to that, Japan's more rigid social structure just showed the cracks sooner.
Like the U.S. at one time, the expectation was do well in school then get a good job and most likely work there until you retire.
Somewhere around the '80s the kids completing their education found no such jobs waiting for them. However, in japan, hopping from one marginal dead-end job to the next is in itself a source of shame.
Re:My son... (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder whether the "walkabout" rituals in aboriginal cultures aren't specifically intended to address this phenomenon. According to Joseph Campbell, the ritual often involves a scene in which the men of the community theatrically come to capture the boy and drag him away. He instinctively hides or runs to his mother for protection, but theatrically she is unable to protect him. So off he goes to make the terrifying and irreversible transition to adulthood.
What happens in modern urban cultures where we don't have any such ritual, indeed where the transition to adulthood is deferred until graduation from university or is completely indefinite? The status quo psychological attachment to childhood is sustained for much longer. Perhaps with long familiarity it becomes more difficult to break. But I think that the complex social norms and risk/reward pressures of modern life - acutely evident in Japan - are the biggest factor. No child in his right mind would want to sign on to them.
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Can you give us any examples? I live in the US and have visited many places including Japan. I disagree with the other post about putting the "wacky shack". I found that most of the Japanese behavior was clique based. Smaller groups of teens/young adults would define and create a look or sub-culture of their own. While individually it might seem extreme, it was the norm for these small groups.
I found it wonderfully entertaining.
Re:It is protest. (Score:5, Interesting)
I suspect you're wrong. The average intelligence hasn't really changed much at all.
What has changed is what you're prepared to accept.
When you were 16, the fact that she was pretty and appeared to like you was more than sufficient to keep your interest in her (at least for a while)
Now you're finding that looks aren't nearly enough to keep your interest beyond the first time she opens her mouth.
Give it another ten years and you'll come to realize that looks really don't matter that much at all. You can admire the hot sexy ones from a distance while listening to the intelligent interesting ones. In time you might discover that she's pretty hot and sexy as well as interesting and intelligent - especially if she starts showing more than a social interest in you - and even if you don't you'll have found a new friend.
On the whole I find women more interesting, easier to talk to, and more intelligent than men.
Tim.
Re:It is protest. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'll just leave this here:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/books/man_of_kneel_PHEDS6aPAczquQE4AgwTiP [nypost.com]
"Sick of being treated like the enemy, guys are dropping out of society"
Re:Well... (Score:5, Funny)