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China Bitcoin

China Takes Aim at 'Extremely Harmful' Crypto Mining Once Again (cnn.com) 147

Chinese authorities are ramping up a crackdown on crypto mining, calling it an "extremely harmful" practice that threatens to jeopardize the country's efforts to reduce carbon emissions. From a report: The National Development and Reform Commission spokesperson Meng Wei blasted bitcoin mining during a press conference Tuesday in Beijing. She said that activity "consumes lots of energy" and "produces lots of carbon emissions." Meng said that the NDRC -- the country's top economic planner -- will launch a "full-scale" clampdown on cryptocurrency mining by focusing on commercial mining and the role of state-owned businesses in the industry. She also said that crypto production and trade produces "prominent risks," and blasted the industry as "blind and disorderly."

As part of its new push, the NDRC said it would raise electricity prices for any institution found to be abusing its access to subsidized power to participate in crypto mining. Authorities have traditionally offered schools, community centers, or other public welfare institutions lower prices for electricity. The price of bitcoin fell after the remarks, diving more than 7% to $60,889, its lowest value in more than a week. While the reason for the plunge was not immediately clear, it coincided with the NDRC press conference. Ether, the second largest digital token after bitcoin, slid more than 8% on Tuesday to $4,297, the worst level in two weeks.

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China Takes Aim at 'Extremely Harmful' Crypto Mining Once Again

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  • This is rare... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by cronostitan ( 573676 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:11PM (#61994047)

    ... but in this case I applaud the effort. Crypto mining is a menace because they miners are looking for the cheapest and most dirty energy possible to run their rigs.
    Any stop on this is change I welcome. Other than that I think China has a very long way to go in all other areas.

    • Doesn't China announce this every few months? It causes a dip in the price of BTC every time.

      • Re:This is rare... (Score:4, Informative)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:57PM (#61994395) Homepage Journal

        They banned it, that was people's opportunity to stop mining it. Now comes the crackdown on people who are not obeying the law.

        That's how every country does it.

        • by gweihir ( 88907 )

          Indeed. Quite obvious to anybody with a clue how reality works.

          • Indeed. Quite obvious to anybody with a clue how reality works.

            It is also obvious to anyone with a clue how to fix the problem.

            Instead of tracking down and punishing people who waste subsidized power, the solution is to stop subsidizing power.

        • Goes back to at least 2013... but I guess in your mind its just two events, a ban and a crackdown. Reality is a little different and is made of of many announcements over a long period, each having a similar effect.

          https://www.coindesk.com/learn... [coindesk.com]

        • This time I noticed the summary mentioning the use of subsidized power and that prices may be raised if these users of subsidized power were using it for mining. Using subsidized resources for alternative purposes is essentially stealing, either with communism or capitalism, whether or not it is commonly done by some.

        • Generally yes. Countries that need money badly announce laws the same moment they start sending out the squads.

      • by hey! ( 33014 )

        This may also have to do with the electricity supply problem they've been having over the past few months. The price of coal has tripled in China but electricity rates are capped; it's effectively a subsidy for China's export manufacturing in the hopes of repairing some pandemic damage to the economy, but there just isn't enough electricity available to go around.

    • Agreed. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Brain-Fu ( 1274756 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:24PM (#61994095) Homepage Journal

      It feels like our culture still has a lot of maturing to do. Cryptocurrencies are intrinsically valueless and calling them a "currency" is just a way of attempting to inject legitimacy into something for which scarcity is purely artificial and for which the primary use cases are criminal. The primary appeal is the volatility, making it an enormous global casino in which the wealthy have all the advantages (as usual).

      Everyone wants to be an overnight millionaire by doing something cheap and easy. Well, not everyone can be, and in fact most of the people who try are the ones left holding the bag. Don't let your optimism run away with all your money.

      • Money is intrinsically valueless. Money only has value because society gives it value. Also, new things can be volatile. It's likely to settle down after a while.
        • It is true that we use fiat money which is intrinsically valueless. But it also has a much stronger regulatory system behind it, making it more trackable and more stable, hence more reliable. It is efficient as a means of exchange so long as the governments that control it keep their heads and maintain fiscal responsibility.

          Cryptocurrency is the wild west. That makes it much more dangerous.

          • The whole concept of cryptocurrency and decentralized finance (DEFI) is that transparent algorithms and data records are organized, with algorithmic consensus mechanisms etc, so as to replace the functions of the monetary regulatory systems.
            Any flaws in such an algorithmically mediated system should be findable and correctable, due to the open and transparent nature of the code, the architectural specifications, the data record, etc.
            • by Junta ( 36770 )

              This presumes the only purpose of regulation is to be sure no one cheats on the math, and so long as the math is correct, things are cool.

              However, the non-mathematical, non-algorithmic side of things is what drives most of the regulatory need. For fraudulent transactions that numerically are fine but the real-world activity is inconsistent with our laws.

            • by gweihir ( 88907 )

              That is not enough. There is no enforcement. If you cannot enforce rules, there will always be some that make off with your valuables.

              For example: If a Bank starts printing money (electronically or real) without authorization from the regulatory authority, 1) the regulator will notice 2) people with guns will come and put a stop to it.

            • Well, what about bitcoin then? Full of flaws, very disorganized, highly unstable, etc. Who out there is doing this auditing? All the hucksters are saying "buy buy buy!" along with "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

          • Cryptocurrency isn't replacing fiat money, but agreed that it's currently the "wild west". And that's okay.
        • Ok, so go to the bus stop kiosk and buy a lollypop and a pack a cigarettes using BTC. I'll wait here, for 2 minutes. After which I'll hop on the bus, leave you standing there, and I'll wave.

          • There are vending machines where I can't use my credit card. So I guess credit cards are useless by your logic here...?
            • What can you buy at the corner store with bitcoin then? I'm not talking about some debit card tied to a crypto exchange, but with real bitcoin.

        • by gweihir ( 88907 )

          Nope. Sorry. You have no clue what you are talking about.

          • Like I mentioned in my other reply, it helps if you point out what exactly you think "I have no clue what I'm talking about".
        • Money has value based upon the fact that you can use it to buy actual goods today, with the faith and backing of governments. Ie, if you own the government money in the form of taxes, they will accept their own currency as legitimate payment (and usually only their own currency is accpeted). Calling it "fiat" does't change this, and neither do the common accusations of "printing money". You can take you $1 and it has value in just about every country on the planet, in legal markets and black markets.

          The

        • by hey! ( 33014 )

          In fact, the fact that it s valueless has significant advantages and no actual disadvantages.

        • Money is intrinsically valueless. Money only has value because society gives it value. Also, new things can be volatile. It's likely to settle down after a while.

          Money is valuable because you need it too pay your taxes with.

          What do you need cryptocurrency for?

      • by gweihir ( 88907 )

        Indeed. Well, that cultural immaturity can also be seen nicely in all those other reality-deniers.

        As to "get rich quick" schemes: BC is one, no question. Never gamble with money you cannot afford to lose.

    • miners are looking for the cheapest and most dirty energy possible to run their rigs.

      No, miners are looking for the cheapest energy with no concern for how dirty it is.

      Every time issues of energy comes up someone will "remind" me that solar + batteries are cheaper than coal. Okay then, problem solved. But then solar power produces what amounts to a rounding error in all energy produced annually in the world. How is China dealing with their energy and pollution problems? They are building many nuclear power plants. This is where someone will "remind" me that nuclear power sucks at follo

      • People believe what they want to. Faulker had a great line. I think it was "Memory believes before knowing remembers"
        • Ben Shapiro has a great line too, "Facts don't care about your feelings."

          The fact is that we can't walk away from nuclear fission power and maintain our standard of living. This was quite apparent many years ago when nations started to put money into studying this issue. This is becoming even more apparent as people see their energy costs rise. People will choose nuclear power because it is safe, abundant, reliable, and therefore lower cost than other options.

          People can believe otherwise but their belief

      • by gweihir ( 88907 )

        miners are looking for the cheapest and most dirty energy possible to run their rigs.

        No, miners are looking for the cheapest energy with no concern for how dirty it is.

        A nice lie by omission. Miners are looking for the cheapest energy they can _get_. And that makes all the difference. In most cases that will be the most dirty energy available, because the people producing it do not care who their customers are.

        • A nice lie by omission.

          There's no lie. The implication was that crypto miners were looking for the dirtiest energy possible, which is far from true. If given the choice, all else equal, I expect the miners to choose the lower pollution option. Why? Because pollution gets the attention of government regulators and the public, and they don't want any attention. They will only look at the cost of the electricity and because pollution gets them unwanted attention they will choose the lower pollution option if it costs them nothi

    • by vlad30 ( 44644 )
      The real reason for China might no be Carbon reduction but saving electricity the current shortages https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/2... [cnbc.com] and the real reason for not buying coal is quite possibly unable to pay https://www.economist.com/lead... [economist.com] this debt problem is much larger and encapsulates many Chinese companies, CCP arrogance will want to blame others. Crypto miners are easy pickings at the moment and you can take their crypto, rigs for themselves.
  • Pollution (Score:5, Insightful)

    by enriquevagu ( 1026480 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:51PM (#61994185)

    We should focus on the most energy-efficient and less polluting systems to avoid climate change issues. If one design is twice as energy-efficient as other design, with all other characteristics similar, we as a society should impose efficiency limits that effectively back the least efficient mechanism.

    Besides being a mix between a Ponzi scheme and an illegal casino, cryptocurrency mining is not twice but many orders of magnitude (5 to 6, or even more depending on the estimation) more polluting than traditional banking transactions. It should be forbidden, as China is doing. In fact, an agreement on cryptocurrency banning would have been one of the wisest outcomes of the Glasgow meeting.

  • I for one welcome the Chinese non-web3-overlords. The decentralised systems use blockchain or other distributed ledger, which includes tokens, coins and such. In essence by generally banning crypto they are banning the future for themselves, and they are willingly giving the leading role in the new internet to someone else. Well, what do they actually even care, they are not on the same internet even... They want a net they can control - decentralisation, honest ledgers and open systems are not really fitti

  • Crypto authorities are ramping up a crackdown on Chinese National Currency Money Laundering, calling it an "extremely harmful" practice that threatens to jeopardize the groups efforts to free people from government monetary systems. From a report:

  • Shouldnâ(TM)t fewer miners INCREASE the value of Bitcoin?

    • by spth ( 5126797 )

      When mining power drops, it takes time for the difficulty to get adjusted.

      During that time, the network processes fewer transactions, so transaction tend to take longer and require higher fees.

  • What gappens when someone runs bitcoin mining on a world class super computer?

    Say Japan's Fugaku or the Chinese compeditor, or something faster in someone's basement, at what point does it become feasable to mine bitcoin this way, by building massive supercomputers?
    • by spth ( 5126797 )

      They would pay much more for energy than they'd get in bitcoin: those supercomputers are general-purpose machines.

      Mining is only profitable with purpose-build hardware.

      Big mining operations use more energy than supercomputers, and their mining power is far beyond what current supercomputers can achieve.

  • It wouldn't have anything to do with authoritarian government wanting to control currency? If carbon is the problem, just impose a tax on carbon emissions and let market decide on most urgent uses of energy and best carbon free sources.

  • China isn't exactly a free country. Why not just take over mining operations by force? With most mining power concentrated in China, that would let China easily disrupt pretty much any coin it wants. It will be effective proof of how problematic mining is, and might help negate all this stupidity.

    • If you were China, would you announce that? Or would you announce cracking down on bitcoin mining while quietly taking over the shop?

  • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @04:49AM (#61995453)

    Crypto mining is a lot like playing MMORPGs. The economy there works a bit in the same way. You do something in the game and money gets generated. You kill a mob and money gets made. The money a monster has isn't something the monster "earned" first, issued by the MMORPG bank, it is generated then and there when you kill that monster. You don't go and kill that monster, the money doesn't exist.

    You can now go and hack down monster after monster, generating your money that way. Of course, that costs you time, time you pay for with your monthly subscription. This can in general be seen as the transformation of electrical energy, and the price you pay for that, to mine cryptocurrency.

    On the other side of the table you have chinafarmers. They do essentially the same thing you do, just more efficient. They also don't have one character, hacking down one monster. They have dozens, scores of farmers, hacking dozens, scores of monsters, and of course that way they generate a magnitude more in-game currency than you do.

    Now, the main difference between MMORPGs and cryptocurrency in this regard is the company running the MMORPG and not wanting this chinafarming business to happen. Because what happens here? Since the chinafarmers can generate magnitudes more money than any normal player, they control a sizable portion of the money market. That in turn means that they dictate the price of goods that cannot be bought from vendors. Prices will go up. And I mean considerably up. Until you, too, will be forced to pay the chinafarmer for their money, because you can't afford jack shit anymore. Yes, of course you can "mine" money by hacking mobs, but you will never keep up with the price inflation. For every gold coin you generate, they create thousands.

    The net effect is that the chinafarmer controls the money market and can do what he wants with it. The money you generate doesn't matter. It's not even a drop compared to the flood that's pouring down from the farmer. Yes, you can generate your own money, But the amount you can make simply doesn't matter in the grand scheme. You control jack shit. The one that controls everything is the chinafarmer.

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