Spain To Launch Trial of Four-Day Working Week (theguardian.com) 77
Spain could become one of the first countries in the world to trial the four-day working week after the government agreed to launch a modest pilot project for companies interested in the idea. From a report: Earlier this year, the small leftwing Spanish party Mas Pais announced that the government had accepted its proposal to test out the idea. Talks have since been held, with the next meeting expected to take place in the coming weeks. "With the four-day work week (32 hours), we're launching into the real debate of our times," said Inigo Errejon of Mas Pais on Twitter. "It's an idea whose time has come." From New Zealand to Germany, the idea has been steadily gaining ground globally. Hailed by its proponents as a means to increase productivity, improve the mental health of workers and fight climate change, the proposal has taken on new significance as the pandemic sharpens issues around wellbeing, burnout and work-life balance.
Leftwing parties in Spain -- where a 44-day strike in Barcelona in 1919 resulted in the country becoming one of the first in western Europe to adopt the eight-hour workday -- have seized on the idea. "Spain is one of the countries where workers put in more hours than the European average. But we're not among the most productive countries," said Errejon. "I maintain that working more hours does not mean working better." While the exact details of the pilot will be hashed out with the government, his party has proposed a three-year, $59.6 million project that would allow companies to trial reduced hours with minimal risk. The costs of a company's foray into the four-day work week, for example, could be covered at 100% the first year, 50% the second year and 33% the third year. "With these figures, we calculate that we could have around 200 companies participate, with a total of anywhere from 3,000 to 6,000 workers," said Hector Tejero of Mas Pais. "The only red lines are that we want to see a true reduction of working hours and no loss of salary or jobs."
Leftwing parties in Spain -- where a 44-day strike in Barcelona in 1919 resulted in the country becoming one of the first in western Europe to adopt the eight-hour workday -- have seized on the idea. "Spain is one of the countries where workers put in more hours than the European average. But we're not among the most productive countries," said Errejon. "I maintain that working more hours does not mean working better." While the exact details of the pilot will be hashed out with the government, his party has proposed a three-year, $59.6 million project that would allow companies to trial reduced hours with minimal risk. The costs of a company's foray into the four-day work week, for example, could be covered at 100% the first year, 50% the second year and 33% the third year. "With these figures, we calculate that we could have around 200 companies participate, with a total of anywhere from 3,000 to 6,000 workers," said Hector Tejero of Mas Pais. "The only red lines are that we want to see a true reduction of working hours and no loss of salary or jobs."
Does that replace siesta? (Score:1)
The concept of siesta is foreign to us foreigners.
Re:Does that replace siesta? (Score:5, Informative)
Not sure - siesta doesn't really affect total hours worked just the mid-shift break length. From my understanding there's a decent amount of people who want to eliminate it as while the longer break can be nice, it's not so great to be getting home several hours later than your counterparts in other countries.
Re:Does that replace siesta? (Score:5, Insightful)
it's not so great to be getting home several hours later
Indeed. People with families don't want to spend more time at work.
The Spanish siesta has mostly faded away. It is still practiced in some rural and southern areas but is uncommon even there.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
That is a quote by Isaac Asimov, not Mark Twain.
Re: Does that replace siesta? (Score:2)
Re:Does that replace siesta? (Score:4, Informative)
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> some Americans were upset by the pace of a shop keeper
Its so embarrassing to be American. Spain has some really great food that is worth waiting for, I'm American and I know this. I'll bet they didn't complain about the sandwich itself.
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I once had a well-assembled Whopper. I had to stop and gaze, it was so impressive. Must have been the guy's first day.
Note that I'm here still talking about "that one time" 10~15 years later. That's how unusual the outcome was.
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As the parent says, the only thing a long break accomplishes is to just make people get home later and have less time for family and hobbies.
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Siesta is just what you can do if you have a three hour lunch break and all the shops are closed.
I don't really know anybody who does it at work though.
(yes, I live in Spain)
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Siesta is pretty simple. Spain follows a timezone that doesn't make sense for it, so their day is shifted. Therefore, people need a nap in the middle of the day.
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Siesta is pretty simple. Spain follows a timezone that doesn't make sense for it, so their day is shifted. Therefore, people need a nap in the middle of the day.
There is also the issue of 120F on the streets in summer in some places. In the central and southern parts of the country, life stops after noon until sunset when it starts to cool down to a pleasant 95F.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! (Score:5, Funny)
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"Could" (Score:2)
The headline states something will happen.
The story says it "could" happen.
Which is it ?
Editors, EDIT.
Love it (Score:4, Interesting)
Back in the day when I was a consultant we typically worked 4 day work weeks. Four 10 hour days, not the 8 hour days that Spain is trying out. But none the less, I loved having Fridays off. Sometimes I would have some papar work to do on a Friday, expense reports and timekeeping tasks for example, but that never took more than an hour or two and the rest of the day was mine.
Now that I'm an FTE the adjustment to a five day work weeks has not been easy. The weekends always seem too short. I would love it if my employer would give us the option of a 4 day work week. Maybe it's time to move to Spain :-)
maybe it's the time for more unions! (Score:3, Insightful)
maybe it's the time for more unions!
Re:Love it (Score:4, Informative)
Some US companies have that option. Lockheed Martin, for example, seems to have largely switched to 4/40s recently. Others do 9/80s, typically with nine hours Monday through Thursday, 8 hours one Friday, and the next Friday off.
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Nice - hope it catches on!
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4-10's makes a lot of sense in some industries. Factories with specialized tools, for example, where the first and last 30 minutes of each day is spent standing in line to check in/out those tools.
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I wonder if there's a material difference between having Fridays off and having Wednesday off. personally I would definitely prefer the latter, as 3-day weekend kicks you too much off the rhythm.
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I would want a mix of both personally. Think about it this way, these days "everyone" has Saturday and Sunday's off. You go to a bowling alley or movie theater and they are packed on those days. But if we had an even split between Friday or Wednesday off, these places would, in theory, have half as many people as the weekend crowd.
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It will depend on the job. If you work at McDonald's, the employees will need to take off different days to cover all the shifts.
If you work at a job that requires collaboration, everyone may be given the same day. Most will prefer an extended weekend.
Commuting traffic will improve if the day-off is evenly distributed.
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The way we did it was one group would work Mon-Thurs and the other group would work Tues-Fri. That way we had full 5 day coverage. Both groups seemed to like it equally well.
Why is the government involved? (Score:5, Insightful)
If this isn't just for government employees, why is the government involved in this? Here in the US there are many, many jobs that run on a 4 day work week. Everything from factory workers to police dispatchers. That is specific to the business involved and the shifts they need to run. Obviously not everyone in Spain works a five day M-F job currently, so who is this applying to and what sets these people apart in some way that the government controls their shifts but not the shifts of people who work evenings or nights or weekends?
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It says right in the description. The public revenues can be used to offset the risk for companies participating in the project in order to try out something they might otherwise be too risk adverse to make.
This is something people often ignore about the efficiency of markets - they're risk adverse and they will resist making decisions that may be better for themselves in the long run. The public sector - being the implementation of a general will of a society - can help mitigate that resistance.
Re:Why is the government involved? (Score:5, Informative)
Not sure you can compare the 4 day work weeks here in the US because those are typically 4x10 where this study is actually 4x8 for a total hours of 32.
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Hmm, reduce your employee's productivity by 20% while being forced to pay them the same, effectively reducing your business' output by 20% while giving everyone raises. What could possibly go wrong with that?
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Imagine if you had the ability to use Google: https://www.theguardian.com/mo... [theguardian.com]
Since reading doesn't seem to be a strong suit of yours, allow me to sum it up: 20% less hours "worked" yet no decrease in work output. Almost like you don't have to work an arbitrary number of hours to be maximally productive.
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I read it. The Guardian cites one financial services company whose founder "claimed" productivity increased. Very scientific.
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Imagine if you'd read the article, which makers it clear there's no pay cut.
Hard to say how that will work out long term. There may not be any initial job cuts but I'd be really surprised if pay growth was very slow for years to come leading to eventual stealth pay cuts.
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And if you were to not jump to so many conclusions because I said zero about pay. I strictly putting more clarity to the statement about trying to compare apples to apples.
Re:Why is the government involved? (Score:4, Informative)
Why is the government involved?
The government, through elected representatives, is empowered by the people to act on their behalf. Democracy is a type of collectivism and can be a tool for both progress and horrible atrocities.
Waiting for corporations to do the right thing on their own can be troublesome. As they have external pressures such as competition with others in their own industry that makes behavior that lead to long-term benefits difficult in cases where there is a short-term disadvantage.
Perhaps if companies in each industry would meet together and make agreements we could see some more interesting and progressive things from them. But as it stands now we tend to regulate companies working together because they traditionally used that power to price fix.
Here in the US there are many, many jobs that run on a 4 day work week
Typical US jobs that are on 4 day work week operate on a rotating 12-hour shift schedule (e.g. 4-week cycle of: 4 on 3 off, 3 on 4 off, 4 on 4 off, 3 on 3 off). That still adds up to 40 or more hours (42 + OT). This is different from TFA where 4 day work week results in 32 hours for full-time hourly employees.
The complication in such legislation always comes down to the details. In what jobs does the law apply? What are the exceptions? How does it alter minimum hours? How does it alter typical wages? How does it affect expectations for salary employees? And tax revenue for the government?
You can be sure if we attempted this regulation in the US we'd discuss all of these things, and probably focus on the most stupid one in a partisan fight and possibly escalate it to full on class warfare.
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In Spain there is an overarching regulation for all things labor: the "Estatuto de los Trabajadores". While different industries can modify it through collective bargaining with better conditions for workers, there is not a private job that does not fall under the scope of this regulation.
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overarching regulation for all things labor
Surely that is a matter of opinion.
While different industries can modify it through collective bargaining with better conditions for workers, there is not a private job that does not fall under the scope of this regulation.
If the general population finds it problematic, can they contact their political representative and press for new legislation? Because ideally shouldn't the government be answerable to the people rather than to industries.
In my country (USA), every private job has aspects that fall under government regulation. It can range from monitoring and reporting what hours I work at what pay, to limiting the minimum amount I can be paid, to requiring employers to pay for my safety e
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Surely that is a matter of opinion.
What is the matter of opinion? That the regulation is overarching, that there are no unregulated jobs (well sure there are, but they are illegal)? Or that that having this regulation is good for the workers?
If the general population finds it problematic, can they contact their political representative and press for new legislation? Because ideally shouldn't the government be answerable to the people rather than to industries.
You are hitting it in the nail. As democracy goes in Spain, you can expect to cast your ballot every 4 years and that's basically it. Unions are not that strong as they were 40 years ago and strikes are not that common. But that is not a weakness specific to the "Estatuto de los Trabajadores", it's
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If this isn't just for government employees, why is the government involved in this?
In the EU, everything is either prohibited or mandatory.
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Are you really suggesting Franco was a Socialist?
I know to some americans the world outside the US either doesn't exist or is seen as universally "commie", but this rewriting of history is so warped as to be beyond parody.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
WTF? Productivity? (Score:2)
Fuck Productivity! that is why we have a problem in the 1st place! Voluntary experiments will not work as well as a universally enforced 3 day weekend and all the arguments from history can be applied again. Technology allowed a 2 day weekend to be economically feasible.
The problem is there will not be enough gainful employment for everybody due to increased productivity and us eventually running into the limits of reality. You can't grow the economy forever; people can't consume limitlessness or handle
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I can either choose to work 40-60 hours or none.
Ah yes America. The land that will pay you $120K a year to work 80\hr weeks but refuses to pay two people $60K a year to work 40\hr. God Bless our country.
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You can thank the gov't for the massive costs incurred by hiring two people at 40-hours/wk over one person at 80-hours/wk. Nobody is being forced to work 80-hour weeks either, that is a choice.
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No need, I'd just find another job if my employer was a cheap piece of shit. You're allowed to do that, you know... at least in free countries.
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Makes sense. (Score:2)
Three years ago I was doing my postdoc, asked my boss if I could just work from home Wednesdays, saving me 1:30 bike riding in and out. That led to the week being a nice split of intense lab-work for two days and then a break to look at the results and write things up. It felt (way) easier but I got more done.
Then I started my own company, focused on mental health, and after doing some literature research it's impossible to miss the fact that a 40 hour work week is (a) arbitrary and (b) counterproductive.
If
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If you want mentally well, creative and happy employees, let them work the hours that work for them.
This is why we don't have the 3 day work week yet.
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If you are getting paid the same as what you got decades ago, find a new job. I get paid roughly three times as much as 20 years ago, and I am working fewer hours. My productivity gains over those decades has paid off in increased salary.
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That's not about "you" personally. Of course as you gain experience, you get raises and promotions and your salary is increased. Mine has too. But in the aggregate,for the whole society the salaries haven't increased with the overall productivity outside of a few hot fields.
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That's because total compensation is what we should look at, not "salary" or "wages". Total compensation, which is a much more accurate cost of employing someone, has increased at almost exactly the same rate as productivity. It's just that inflation for fringe benefits has been vastly higher than for everything else, so benefits represent a larger fraction of total compensation and a large majority of the gains from productivity growth.
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That's the first time I'm hearing this. What kind of fringe benefits? Foosball table in the office? Free snacks? Most people don't even get those. I'd be curious to see some data if you have a source.
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Health insurance, most notable. Fringe benefits are much more common than you seem to think: https://www.investopedia.com/t... [investopedia.com]
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Thanks for the anecdotal evidence (Score:2)
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If you trust them, and they are working on projects that excite and motivate them ...
Only a small number of jobs meet these criteria.
There are more fast-food workers than postdocs.
The lower the pay, the less the trust and excitement.
"Let everyone choose their own hours" is a lot like "Let them eat cake."
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Biden is way behind the times (Score:1)
Mitch McConnell was doing a fine job at a zero day work week for the Senate.
I'd prefer the 25% raise. (Score:2)
From TFA:
"The only red lines are that we want to see a true reduction of working hours and no loss of salary or jobs."
So that means I'm supposed to get the same amount of work done in four days instead of five. OK, maybe I could do that if I worked harder and smarter.
But suppose I don't have a life and don't want a weekend: can I continue to work harder, smarter, and keep working five days a week? And if I do, oughtn't I be in line for a 25% raise?
This kind of begs the question, if working smarter and harder was so easy, why aren't people doing it already? And why are those cruel whip-cracking bosses already deman
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But suppose I don't have a life and don't want a weekend: can I continue to work harder, smarter, and keep working five days a week? And if I do, oughtn't I be in line for a 25% raise?
This kind of begs the question, if working smarter and harder was so easy, why aren't people doing it already? And why are those cruel whip-cracking bosses already demanding it? It's almost as if that's a lot harder to pull off than you'd imagine.
We are already doing way more than in 5 days than our grandparents did in 10. Productivity is up over 200% what it was in 1950 while inflation-adjusted salaries have flattened or declined since 1970. The promise of better technology and modern manufacturing techniques was supposed to be a life of leisure and security for everyone instead of just the wealthy. Instead, it's been used to more efficiently extract wealth from the working class and funnel it upwards.
In other words, your reward for working smar
It's as if you are paid for your time (Score:2)
What a novel concept. (Score:2)
We only work 15-20 hours/week anyway? (Score:2)