Job Boards Are Rife With 'Ghost Jobs' (bbc.com) 75
"Job openings across the country are seemingly endless," writes longtime Slashdot reader smooth wombat. "Millions of jobs are listed, but are they real? Companies may post job openings with no intent to ever fill it. These are known as ghost jobs and there are more than most people realize. The BBC reports: Clarify Capital, a New York-based business loan provider, surveyed 1,000 hiring managers, and found nearly seven in 10 jobs stay open for more than 30 days, with 10% unfilled for more than half a year. Half the respondents reported they keep job listings open indefinitely because they "always open to new people." More than one in three respondents said they kept the listings active to build a pool of applicants in case of turnover -- not because a role needs to be filled in a timely manner.
The posted roles are more than just a talent vacuum sucking up resumes from applicants. They are also a tool for shaping perception inside and outside of the company. More than 40% of hiring managers said they list jobs they aren't actively trying to fill to give the impression that the company is growing. A similar share said the job listings are made to motivate employees, while 34% said the jobs are posted to placate overworked staff who may be hoping for additional help to be brought on.
"Ghost jobs are everywhere," says Geoffrey Scott, senior content manager and hiring manager at Resume Genius, a US company that helps workers design their resumes. "We discovered a massive 1.7 million potential ghost job openings on LinkedIn just in the US," says Scott. In the UK, StandOut CV, a London-based career resources company, found more than a third of job listings in 2023 were ghost jobs, defined as listings posted for more than 30 days. "Experts caution not every posting that seems like a ghost job is one," notes the report. "Still, whether these postings are ghost jobs -- or simply look and feel like them -- the result is similar. Jobseekers end up discouraged and burnt out."
The posted roles are more than just a talent vacuum sucking up resumes from applicants. They are also a tool for shaping perception inside and outside of the company. More than 40% of hiring managers said they list jobs they aren't actively trying to fill to give the impression that the company is growing. A similar share said the job listings are made to motivate employees, while 34% said the jobs are posted to placate overworked staff who may be hoping for additional help to be brought on.
"Ghost jobs are everywhere," says Geoffrey Scott, senior content manager and hiring manager at Resume Genius, a US company that helps workers design their resumes. "We discovered a massive 1.7 million potential ghost job openings on LinkedIn just in the US," says Scott. In the UK, StandOut CV, a London-based career resources company, found more than a third of job listings in 2023 were ghost jobs, defined as listings posted for more than 30 days. "Experts caution not every posting that seems like a ghost job is one," notes the report. "Still, whether these postings are ghost jobs -- or simply look and feel like them -- the result is similar. Jobseekers end up discouraged and burnt out."
If only LinkedIn would do something about this (Score:5, Interesting)
G-g-g-ghost jobs?!? (Score:1)
ZOINKS!!!
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ZOINKS!!!
Ruh-roh, raggy!
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but but games are a useful feature... Knowing which applicants play games in a job seeking context saves you from hiring those slackers.
Re:If only LinkedIn would do something about this (Score:5, Informative)
Oh man, Linkedin is absoulte poison if you use it for anything other than looking from job.
A ghoulish past time is watching absolute lunatics posting page long rants about how hitler was misunderstood or who america should be for whites only, or whatever, only to see their job status change from employed to looking-for-work because they just posted that rant in view of their boss and half the companies clients. Like holy shit dude, its 100% yr right to have that stupid opinion, but to do it basically in the online version of your work uniform, well thats on you if your boss decides your not a "good fit". And you just know because its linkedin that everyone elses boss is watching too. That dudes going to be living in a box in six months because nobody is going to hire that lol.
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Most of those connections are fake or irrelevant.
I do have a profile on LinkedIn. What I've noticed is recruiters sending connection requests, but never ever initiating a conversation. They just build insanely large pools of remotely prospective candidates. Back in 2015 or so, there was a particular recruiter (one who got me a job at a corporation) who was bragging she had "over 13K connections".
And if you work in a corporate environment for a large company, you have to fight an endless stream of connection
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Re:If only LinkedIn would do something about this (Score:4, Interesting)
It'll be a pain in the ass. They'll have to create some kind of agreement or require companies to re-certify the opening is not a ghost job and that they in good faith interviewed people, but couldn't find someone who was qualified and "fit in with their culture" or some BS like that. Besides, does LinkedIn really want you getting a job and using it less, it may help long term but CEOs only think about the next quarterly report.
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This is like complaining that Tinder doesn't facilitate long term dating. No shit. LinkedIn makes its money from people who are actively looking to change their jobs, or who are looking for people to fill jobs. They don't make their money from someone who's in a stable long term job, and really doesn't care that much about their CV or networking beyond the specialist circles where everyone knows everyone without Microsoft being man in the middle.
Ghost jobs, games and other means of keeping attention of thos
This raises a question (Score:2)
I've suspected for a very long time the BLS numbers aren't on the level. For various reasons. If all these jobs aren't being filled, are they showing up in the BLS numbers for job openings? If so, that throws off the Fed's guess* at inflation.
* Yes, the Fed guesses what the rate of inflation is. They don't live in reality. All they see are numbers which aren't based in reality. Just like, apparently, the number of job openings.
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The current inflation rate is, so far as I can tell, determined in advance, then computed to match by not counting anything above that. Gas prices high? We won't include that in the official inflation rate. Housing? Same. Food? Same. That's right, the official inflation rate doesn't include food or housing costs.
It's easy to control inflation when you simply define what you want it to be.
(Not that the Republicans have been any better, historically.)
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Gas and food prices are added into the inflation rate, but excluded from the core due to their volatility. That doesn't bother me even though it's fiddling with the numbers. Of the two, only the food and gas inflation are somewhat close to reality since those are easily quantifiable, assuming the sample size is large enough. See below.
My point is the Fed doesn't live in reality. All they look at are spreadsheets showing numbers which do not represent the true state of inflation. This is especially true
Wait, what? [Re:This raises a question] (Score:3)
Gas and food prices are added into the inflation rate, but excluded from the core due to their volatility. That doesn't bother me even though it's fiddling with the numbers. Of the two, only the food and gas inflation are somewhat close to reality since those are easily quantifiable, assuming the sample size is large enough. See below. My point is the Fed doesn't live in reality. All they look at are spreadsheets showing numbers which do not represent the true state of inflation. This is especially true when you take into consideration the abysmal response rate [businessinsider.com] they get to their surveys. It's bad enough they stick with the, "We only need to survey 1,000 businesses to get a good assessment of inflation" nonsense. They need to increase their sampling size to get a much closer approximation.
Wait, what? In the previous post you said "The current inflation rate is, so far as I can tell, determined in advance, then computed to match by not counting anything above that."
Now you're saying "I don't like their measurement techniques, and their sample size is too small" and leaving out the part "they chose what they count to make the number they already determined."
Which?
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Given that they've revised job numbers down after the fact for the past 12 quarters, I'm confused why you think any of the numbers are on the up and up.
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Show your work. What revisions do you think were not on the "up and up"? What was the reason given for the revisions, and why do you think this was inaccurate?
And, since you already wrote two posts that contradict each other, show some documentation more than "I personally say it wasn't on the up and up."
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It's bad enough they stick with the, "We only need to survey 1,000 businesses to get a good assessment of inflation" nonsense. They need to increase their sampling size to get a much closer approximation.
My Statistical Analysis skills are rusty, but IIRC, that gives about +/-2.9% statistical uncertainty. If you survey 10K instead of 1K, that's 10x the effort and the uncertainty would be at +/-1.8% (again, off the top of my head, take that with a grain of salt). 10x the effort for 1.1% improvement is not useful.
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My Statistical Analysis skills are rusty, but IIRC, that gives about +/-2.9% statistical uncertainty.
That's assuming you get a response from all 1,000. As I pointed out, the Fed's response rate is barely 1/3. Meaning, that 2.9% is irrelevant. By having a larger sampling size, which in this day and age is an insignificant effort, even if your response rate remains constant, you get a larger pool of data to use. This pool can be spread out to get into the nooks and crannies of the country where the current
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It's not "we interviewed 1000 people and 300 answered".
It's "we have 1000 answers, and this is the data". They might have had 3K attempts in total.
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Why is this moderated 'troll'? This is exactly how the official figures are done.
It takes all of about 5 seconds to look at the data to know that an 18% inflationary rate on food and housing, the primary things people spend money on, should not in any way lead to a 5% inflationary rate in aggregate - though we see this kind of thing month after month.
But hey, the inflation (not the cost) of vacation packages is down 0.3%!
Re:This raises a question (Score:5, Informative)
It's a bit trollish because none of this is a secret, BLS publishes how it does everything. CPI is just a collection of prices of goods. The inflation rate is a rate over time. If you want to see the total rate over a long time that's there too. Rate of all items or selected items? Broken down? You want unemployment rates, they got 6 of them.
I would say calling it "done in advance" and accusation of juicing the numbers are a simplification at best. Now taking issues with these methods, that's fair game but accusations of something underhanded I think gotta have some backing or are we just going off the vibes?
Quarterly Census of Employment and Wages [bls.gov]
Job Openings and Labor Turnover Survey : Collections & Data Sources [bls.gov]
Table A-15. Alternative measures of labor underutilization [bls.gov]
The concern above about response rates to surveys? That's a very valid concern that should be addresses but lest we forget the reason we also know that is because those numbers are also published.
Household and establishment survey response rates [bls.gov]
Re:This raises a question (Score:5, Informative)
"The current inflation rate is, so far as I can tell, determined in advance" is not a "fact" because there was no facts given to support that.
And I am a liberal, loud and proud, you should be too. Conservatives are also supposed to be liberal since liberalism as defined is just "... a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law"
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Large volumes of published documents does not mean the BLS is right or even accurate. Have a look at the job numbers out of the Philly FED compared to those of the BLS.
If volume of printed production was a measure of genius, the printing presses at the Bureau of Engraving & Printing would prove everyday how the US government is such a brilliant financial genius.
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Yeah that's my point. If you want to attack something about the numbers then we should do that, but that's not what the OP was claiming. They are alleging some sort of conspiratorial means in which the numbers are manipulated or some cloud of secrecy over how they are calculated when all that is in the open.
I am not claiming some sort of "financial genius" that's a strawman attack. I am saying if you are going to accuse the government of manipulating the numbers for political reasons you need some evidenc
Misinformation [Re:This raises a question] (Score:5, Informative)
The current inflation rate is, so far as I can tell, determined in advance, then computed to match by not counting anything above that.
Cute, but no. There are rules [bls.gov] for how the BLS calculated the consumer price index (CPI, which is what the the news calls inflation rate), and these are documented, and they don't get changed without notice.
There are actually several different indices; possibly that's what you're talking about, but no, they don't change. Try https://www.brookings.edu/arti... [brookings.edu] or https://www.forbes.com/advisor... [forbes.com] for some)
Gas prices high? We won't include that in the official inflation rate.
The way CPI is calculated doesn't change. CPI does include gas: https://www.bls.gov/cpi/factsh... [bls.gov] Depending on which index you call "inflation", gas may or may not be included. "Core inflation" doesn't include gas (the rationale is that gas prices are volatile. If gas prices WERE included, inflation would be lower, since gas prices decreased since a year ago.). CPI does.
Housing? Same.
Housing is [brookings.edu] included in the CPI. And, once again, that's not changed.
Food? Same.
Again, depends on what index. But no, the calculation does not change.
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Read an article a day ago on the numbers spewed out by BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics in the USA).
Article compared BLS stats to stats announced by the Philly Federal Reserve Bank.
Seems like the Philly FED folks have a decent historical track record of GOOD numbers.
The historical data shows the BLS folks consistently overshoot on their numbers and then have to revise them DOWNWARD in following months.
One of the worst years for BLS downward revision of labor stats was 2008 where BLS numbers for 11 of 12 mont
Understaffing is the new wage theft... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not like the old wage theft has stopped either.
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There's a simple solution for this, one that I use all the time. Don't wear yourself out working long hours because your company won't hire the staff it needs. When you've finished your day, sign out and shut the computer down. If you work from an office, don't take your computer home with you, don't put your work email or Teams on your phone. Shut it off. Yes, it works.
It depends on the culture of the firm (Score:2)
Yes in some places that will be fine - worked for me in a local government office. But if the culture is against you, you will be unpopular with colleagues - unless they follow your lead - and it makes it unlikely you will get promotions or even pay rises.
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Yes, this is what people tell themselves while they are wearing themselves out. I've never worked in government. I've always been popular with my colleagues. On multiple occasions others have said to me some version of "You're the most balanced person I know." In other words, they saw my priorities and viewed them with respect. I've never lacked for promotions. The reality is, I always got as much done--or more--than the others, because I was rested and was able to be more productive.
So no, I don't buy it.
Sounds great; well done (Score:2)
I wasn't criticising how successful your approach can be, merely that too many firms make a virtue of being at your desk silly numbers of hours. I hope others learn from your example.
H-1B (Score:5, Insightful)
They are supposed to pay people on those visas, but do they really?
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Re:H-1B (Score:5, Insightful)
They can pay them whatever TF they want. Company I used to work for would fill out ridiculous requirements for a job that only the Indian grad student when he graduated would have. Didn't matter that the "requirements" were not really requirements. They were just trying to out fox the law when the law says you have to post a job so that a US citizen can apply. They could say, no one met the "requirements" so we have to hire this person H-1B (and we can pay them less--what a bargain).
There are law firms that specialize (Score:3)
We're too unorganized to do anything about it. Look at the pro-Gaza guys. They got 100k "uncommitted votes" in the primary and got action from the President *and* the Senate majority leader.
We can't do shit because each and every one of us acts individually, and as individuals we're weak. Like how you can break a single arrow but not a bundle of them.
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Who needs to jump through all the H1B hoops, when they can just as easily hire somebody who still lives and works in India, or Pakistan, or wherever!
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This hiring principle exists outside US where no such incentives exist, so probably not. At least not in a major way.
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This I've seen at my former employer, despite their denials. Posting fantastical, ludicrous jobs with unrealistic qualifications. Examples include; 'data scientist', 'full stack developer', a job that asks for PhD and 5 years experience. And does not specify a lack of visa sponsorship. Indeed, that employer rarely posts jobs at mid-level or even highly competent developer qualifications that specify no visa sponsorship. And while the salaries are competitive, these postings sure seem to be intended to fail
jobspam (Score:4, Interesting)
One of the many things where I say "How is this not committing fraud or false advertisement?" But it apperently isn't and nobody will ever get in trouble for it.
To Placate Overworked Employees (Score:4, Interesting)
The the one size fits all edicts have returned, back to the office, the terribly overscheduled life, and the change tickets constantly being kicked down the road for a "risk" management cannot quantify. All five of us have left, don't really care how the enterprise is doing, at least in the group of 20 we treated each other as adults. We all get people call us with our job descriptions and our pay rates from 10 years ago, sort of ask the recruiters are they quoiting in 2016 money?
We had several conversations with our CIO, we do not bring along Jrs. from our internal staff. His people made internal staff go to greener pastures all of 2023. Perhaps most of us will be back in on consulting contract to fix the big dumb boat has happened in the past. Things evolve and die off I understand that, but fat and stupid is no way to live ones life.
Re:To Placate Overworked Employees (Score:5, Insightful)
Speech-to-text is a great feature but it makes for something markedly less readable when it's stream of consciousness like this.
Shaping corporate perception ... (Score:2)
More than 40% of hiring managers said they list jobs they aren't actively trying to fill to give the impression that the company is growing.
I knew a lot of employers are lying sociopathic shit-stains, but now we have an exact figure ... 40% of them. I bet a whole bunch of these assholes are bringing in people for fake interviews and making them pay the travel costs. If somebody wants you to pay the costs of travelling to an interview, tell them (very politely) to go fuck themselves unless your costs are a small to small-ish sum and you don't mind burning some time on what seems to be an almost 50-50 chance to be a fake interview as it is a real
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I am pretty sure that these "ghost jobs" will never have any interviews at all, let alone in-person ones. These are never more than just an entry in the hiring system that is marked so that all of the recruiters ignore anything dropped into it.
It is annoying, but not nearly so nefarious as you are making it out to be.
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This is pure projection of your own biases. They said that they're posting jobs, not that they're interviewing for them.
Just imagine being such a manager trying to run operation you just mapped out in your head as real past your boss. "Yes sir, I want to have a project of fake interviews, where we got over a lot of applications and CVs, and then interview a lot of them. No sir, we're not hiring any of them. Yes sir, this need to be budgeted for, both in time and money.
Sir, why are you handing me a pink slip
That's okay because (Score:5, Funny)
...I post ghost resumes.
It's good work if you aren't easily spooked (Score:3)
...I post ghost resumes.
But who you gonna call?
Re:That's okay because (Score:4, Funny)
My ghost will talk to your ghost!
Exactly what many friends have told me (Score:2)
The same jobs are repeatedly posted for months at a time. On linkedin it shows each of these jobs have hundreds of candidates. Even the companies internal job web sites show the positions opened for months at a time. There is something really weird going on. The supposedly employment rate is not reflective of what is going on right now for a large segment of the workforce not in hospitality etc.
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>The same jobs are repeatedly posted for months at a time
When I'm looking for work, I avoid companies like that as if they were plague-infested. I never considered it might be just them trying to impress the market somehow... I took them at face value. "There's a company that either can't find anyone because the job turns out to be really shitty, or a company that can't KEEP anyone because the job turns out to be really shitty".
This doesn't necessarily apply to government work, which I've done my fair s
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Don't forget things like the union protesting that they didn't get a proper go at the job, so you have to advertise it internally again, even though you know darn well that there isn't anybody with the qualifications.
Roughly, the job I'm talking about is 99% military who retire or separate and come back to the same job as a GS making 50% more. Normal GS need not apply, they lack the clearances and training.
False advertising (Score:5, Interesting)
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If they are given an (unknown to them) ghost job position, and they waste time sifting through applicant resumes for a position that will never get filled, wouldn't that be the basis for a lawsuit? They would have hard data showing how much time and effort they spent looking for a candidate. And in business, time is money.
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Does anyone know how recruiting companies are compensated? I would imagine that they don't get paid until they find the right candidate for the hiring company.
If they are given an (unknown to them) ghost job position, and they waste time sifting through applicant resumes for a position that will never get filled, wouldn't that be the basis for a lawsuit? They would have hard data showing how much time and effort they spent looking for a candidate. And in business, time is money.
It'll differ from company to company, but they'll take part payment on being contracted with the remainder to be paid upon completion (either hiring or having worked for X number of months). They won't be working for free but nor will they get 100% upfront.
This dynamic can easily change if a company has a good working relationship with a recruiter or agrees to use them exclusively.
You've got to be weary of recruitment agencies "fronting". I.E. pretending to represent an employer when they're looking t
Busy work for HR (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't think this problem will go away without some sort of legislative fix.
The Reality (Score:5, Funny)
1. Hiring mangers are incompetent. Often maliciously so. They derive intense obsessive psychotic salacious pleasure from denying other people jobs.
2. Managers are incompetent. They have never been trained, nor do they care if they know how to do their job.
3. By and large corporations are self-congratulatory drinking clubs. No actual work is done except in overseas factories.
4. Non-management employees are warehoused for appearance. They do nothing except participate in adult day care.
5. For non-management employees, the average corporate workplace best resembles a cruise ship. For management, the workplace is a high end brothel.
6. In any group of 100 employees, at most three are competent and do work with economic value. The other 97 are there to exchange recreational chemicals and talk about being drunk, screwing someone else's spouse and doing illegal things.
7. When in doubt, a corporate employee is always wrong, regardless of seniority. This is doubly true if technology is the subject matter. There are no exceptions to this rule.
8. If corporate boards and officers were actually required to tell the truth, their companies would collapse in a giant unholy maggot-infested pile of infected lies and sink into the Earth. Amen.
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Because while this like all jokes has a kernel of truth in it, like all jokes it takes that kernel and shoots it into the Sun for maximum comedic effect.
Agencies are scum. (Score:2)
Some times you have 2-3 Agencies posting for the s (Score:2)
Some times you have 2-3 Agencies posting for the same job
Stealing your PII (Score:2)
I'll bet the biggest offenders are selling your personal information. By applying you agree to let us harvest your data, etc etc
Indeed is the worst? (Score:2)
I receive emails sent to my company's "jobs@" email address. It receives a stream of applications via Indeed for jobs that are not posted and haven't been posted for years.
Nothing New (Score:2)
That's a funny way to spell "FRAUD" (Score:1)
A fake resume is fraud.
A fake want ad is fraud.
Both should result in jail time.
I don't know if this applies to LinkedIn... (Score:2)
Contract-to-hire (Score:2)