EU Says Veggie Burgers Can Keep Their Name (nytimes.com) 165
When is a burger not a burger? When it contains no meat. At least according to a divisive proposal that was in front of the European Parliament this week, part of a set of measures that would have banned the use of terms like "steak," "sausage," "escallop" or "burger" on labels for plant-based alternative products. But after a decisive vote against the measure on Friday, it seems veggie burgers will still be on the menu. From a report: "Reason prevailed, and climate sinners lost," Nikolaj Villumsen, a member of the European Parliament from Denmark posted on Twitter. "It's worth celebrating with a veggie burger." A proposal to expand a ban on descriptions such as "yogurt-style" or "cream imitation" for nondairy replacements did pass, extending previous limitations on the use of words like "milk" and "butter" on nondairy alternatives. The proposed changes -- a small part of a package of agricultural measures -- received more attention than perhaps desired either by their proponents among meat and livestock groups, who said they would prefer to focus on helping farmers work sustainably, or the environmentalists and food manufacturers opposing it, for whom it is a distraction from climate-change policy. Jasmijn de Boo, vice president of ProVeg International, a group aimed at reducing meat consumption, said that the proposal was not in the interest of consumers or manufacturers, and that shoppers were not confused by the labels currently on store shelves.
Thanks (Score:2, Funny)
What do you guys do to thank your European overlords when they permit you to continue to communicate the way you're used to? Is there some sort of gratitude ritual that humble subjects perform? Such benevolent understanding from your majestic rulers can't be allowed to pass by without acknowledgement, can it?
Re:Thanks (Score:5, Informative)
The meat industry is trying the same tactics in the US. This is not a Europe-only issue.
Many industries try to use their regulatory capture to force newcomers to use different terms for their products to make them less appealing to consumers.
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Exactly this.
I don't care what you call something. I care what it is. As long as the ingredients are on the package, that's covered, and I can make informed decisions.
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While maybe not wrong, wouldn't that seem at least a little shady?
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You're welcome to take your custom elsewhere. The last time I checked, "nerd' was not limited to technology, but intellectual pursuits.
Both situations are accused of being "shady" because one subpopulation has decided to appropriate and limit use of the term to their own narrow interests. It's not being shady, it's a rejection of that appropriation.
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Luckily for them they'll see the price on so-called 'plant-based meat substitutes' and cringe at how outrageously expensive it is, put it back down, and buy the real thing instead. Only rich white people who want to virtue signal and/or make themselves 'feel like they're making a difference' w
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Uum, hate to tell ya, but fresh butter is or can be white too. Like cream and milk.
In natural butter, it's what the cows eat, and how old and rancid the butter is.
Unless they put food coloring in it in the US...
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Beta-carotene is what gives it the yellowish colour. And as the conventional wisdom here goes, fresh grass contains quite a bit of beta-carotene.
Hence a yellow butter colour suggests cattle that's held on pastures with fresh grass.
Though in reality the probably just put beta-carotene into everything they use to feed their milk cows. Because that way they don't have to declare it as an additive, while if they put it directly into the
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Seriously?
Wow, I think this points out the type of extremists that are out there wanting to dictate what you should eat and judging you on your lifestyle.
Someone that prefers to eat as traditional humans have since, well, forever....vs a highly processed new product, often with more fat and salt...is now a fucking "climate sinner"?
JFC....when did the world get to where this type of rad
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LOL, yeah we're gonna get a tax break for not having a kid. That's funny. We literally give you a tax break for having a kid. We are truly doomed.
That would be really nice though and your post is 100% correct.
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Oh noes! Liars cannot lie about what a product is in their names anymore!
You Americans are *crazy* to is EU-Europeans. You side *with* the lyars and fraudsters? You side *with* big business interests? But aren't you the *workers*? The *consumers*?
You don't understand. We in the EU *want* this.
To us, you sound lile little bully Rockefeller in school went "Why do you hit yourself?"... and you started honestly believing not only that *you* are hitting yourself, but that you are the bully too! :)
Bit of a North
Re:Thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
As opposed to who, the US? Do you realize how tightly controlled food marketing terminology is here? There's a good chance the US Beef and Dairy industries are going to stop US companies from calling their products "milk," "beef," et al. The difference is that in our country it will be largely decided by how much the industry is willing to pony up to stuff politicians' pockets rather than a regulation committee. Winning?
Well said (Score:5, Interesting)
This is exactly what was entirely missed when the UK decided to leave the EU - that the regulations imposed are actually, largely, *improvements* on the status-quo that existed before.
Sure, there's a ton of bureaucratic craziness within the EU and it's certainly not squeaky clean, not by a long shot.
But the point is, it is an attempt to find consensus amongst its members - trade agreements, climate agreements, agreements on law.
It is an attempt to be more civilised, to have more open debate.
Has it always succeeded? Heck no, far from it.
Is it better than what was there before? Erm, well, there's this small matter of WWII and before that, a small matter of numerous wars within the region.
So, yeah, it's better than what went before.
That's why, when I read the utter bullshit about 'freedom to choose' and 'you can't tell us what to do', I just despair, I really do.
People are just so damn ignorant for the most part.
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that is going to change soon
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Ungrateful ignorant Britons! Why can't they learn to love edicts imposed by distant rulers?
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You know, when people spew this kind of bullshit I wish they would actually be forced to do things against their will by a distant rule so they would understand the difference.
Re: Well said (Score:2)
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You are severely out of date.
Nobody respectable bribes anymore. That is first-generation lobbyism.
Their lobbyists just ARE the politicians nowadays. Third generation lobbyism.
The only ones still paying up, are the third-rate interest groups who have to use the lobbyist-politicians of others, and aren't competent in controlling the input those politicians receive by flooding conferences and the media with their talking heads, aka second-generation lobbyism.
Re:Thanks (Score:5, Interesting)
Might sound funny, but this is actually one case where the EU Parliament is doing its useful job.
Consumer protection is important if you want companies and citizens to have a balanced relationship. And yes, defining how things can be called is part of that.
In the case at hand, I find it extremely hard in the US to distinguish pizzas which have vegan cheese or a cauliflower-based crust, because they try to blend as much as they can as a "regular" pizza. And as much as I support vegans, I really hate vegan cheese.
Similarly, it's sometimes pretty hard to know what you're buying when looking for burgers. I've seen 100% meet, some with a mix of meet and onions, soy-based products, etc ... These have their place in the supermarket only if what is in the product is abundantly clear to the buyer.
And I guess their conclusion was that as long as the product it replaces is not mentioned it was ok. Like, beef-like, soy-chicken or similar terms would not have been allowed, but soy patties, soy burgers, soy nuggets are fine since they don't have any meet name in it. Even steak is fine, since beef has been removed from "beef steak".
So yes, we thank them for their decision, at least the bureaucracy served its citizens instead of wasting the taxpayer's money. Way to go EU.
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You realize this is very condescending right?
Yesterday I was at Costco. There was Cheese pizza, and next to it Cauliflower pizza. No way to mix them up, especially when the latter costs much more.
There were Beef patties, "Beyond Meat" patties, Fish Patties, and again a regular person would not mix them up either.
And even though I love meat, I sometimes sample vegan alternatives. And if I see "soy chicken", or "tofurky" I can know which taste to expect. If I only see "soy nuggets", it would be more difficult
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Not sure what was condescending. Anyway, it wasn't indeed very clear, my apologies, but I'm not saying all labels are confusing. There are some that are very clear and I'm fine with it. But I also found it hard in some cases to actually know what was what until I spent a decent amount of time reading the fine print. I'm not super familiar with Costco (I don't buy frozen stuff there usually) but it happened to me at Safeway and Whole Foods.
And that was not to say the US should pass similar laws or anything.
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Some of them really are terrible, but not all. You just haven't found the good ones yet. The best ones I found so far are Daiya, Earth Island / Follow Your Heart, Nafsika's Garden. Some are better than others depending on how you use them (ex: cold/as-is, hot/melted, etc)
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Then take a peek at those ingedients and processing methods then.
They only taste crap if the manufacturer actually gave a crap about it being healthy. The better it tastes, the more sketchy the manufacturing an inredients. ... soy beans. Surprise, surprise. ;)
Because soy beans naturally taste like
Beans, in general are great, and a good pot of beans, onions, beef and whatever is quite tasty. I do not even single out soy, even though there are better ones.
It is not a yoghurt however.
It's always gonna be artif
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I don't think any of those are based on soy. Especially Daiya, they make their products as allergen-free as possible.
As for being healthy, do you think something like "Kraft Singles" is made of quality natural ingredients? You can only complain about vegan substitutes if you are on a raw diet. Even cooking meat is unnatural, for example.
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As for being healthy, do you think something like "Kraft Singles" is made of quality natural ingredients?
Yum, pasteurized process cheese food product...
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It is not about being condescending to you. We know you can tell.
It is is about the slippery slope. About stopping sleazebags early. Because you STILL can tell.
We specifically had that point with "analog cheese" in Germany, a decade ago.
Manufacturers slipped in ever more *misleading but technically cop-out-able* names and descriptions, specifically to cheat people into buying cheaper crap for higher prices. You know, cause that is what "free-market capitalism" means in practice, as sorry as I am to tell you
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IDK how you all do things over there, but here in the states the labels are pretty easy to read and understand. There is almost no way you can accidentally buy almond milk over regular cow milk. If you did, you clearly didn't read anything at all.
The same is said for the meat counter. It's extremely obvious what is meat and what is not. If you don't want surprises, buy raw meat and do all the seasoning yourself. Taste better and will be healthier then anything processed.
Frozen food should be avoided general
Re: Thanks (Score:2)
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Nope, the definition of cheese is a dairy product that results after curdling casein.
Rennet is not a necessary prerequisite of cheese, vinegar or lemon juice can create cheese out of milk too. Lactic acid bacteria also work.
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No, selling cheese analog as cheese is illegal in Germany and I think in the EU too.
The court case was specifically about pizza
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It was a big scandal around here, and a meme for years.
Nobody here dares to sell that crap anymore, as literally every pizza place was asked about it every day until a law forced them to warn customers in the menu and list of ingredients. Nobody bought it.
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In the case at hand, I find it extremely hard in the US to distinguish pizzas which have vegan cheese or a cauliflower-based crust, because they try to blend as much as they can as a "regular" pizza. And as much as I support vegans, I really hate vegan cheese.
What? Every pizza place I've seen either distinguishes themselves as selling only vegan or only cauliflower crust, OR if they also sell regular pizza 99.95% of their menu is regular and there is one vegan or one cauliflower option. Not only that but "Vegan cheese" is usually at least $5 extra.
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I'ts about supermarkets. Safeway, Lucky, Whole Foods, ... Some are easy to see some are pretty hard to recognize.
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" but soy patties, soy burgers, soy nuggets are fine since they don't have any meet name in it. Even steak is fine, since beef has been removed from "beef steak"."
So, what about buffalo wings?
If I can't call it Steak-like, can I call it "Smells like Stake"? Or "Tastes-like-Milque"
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How hard is it to figure out you have a burger?
I mean, you buy a package of ground beef, it is plainly labeled.
In general, you can even see the % of lean beef vs % fat content.
You take it home and patty it up and grill or otherwise cook your burger.
It's plain and simple.
You MAKE hamburgers, if you go get pre-made stuff, then well, you end up with your veggie patties, etc....and on that, you just read the ingredi
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It is pretty annoying. They're all measures to protect entrenched interests. In horticulture for example we have very few native pests and plant diseases, but lots of potential for imported pests and diseases to wreak havoc. So obviously the best solution would just be to ban importation of species that are at risk of carrying problematic vectors, right? Hahahaha noooo, not a chance, if we do that, then that'll be considered favoritism to domestic growers, and countries like Denmark and Holland will sue us
Re: Thanks (Score:2)
Why wouldn't they be able to use veggie burger, hamburgers are not made out of ham.
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Umm. . .who cares ?? (Score:2)
It's not like "burger" refers to a specific dish. It's a meat patty, generally beef, between buns. But I've had turkey burgers, venison burgers, even the 'impossbile whopper" Isn't there something more important for Governments to worry about ? Some novel flu virus, perhaps ?
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Isn't there something more important for Governments to worry about ?
Yeah, like how "boneless chicken wings" aren't wings at all. THAT needs regulation.
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The "boneless chicken wings" problem pales in comparison with the "buffalo wings" problem. Why are governments not doing anything about that?
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Wait, isn't the last one short for "Buffalo-style"? As in "Like folks from a place called Buffalo do it"?
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It's not like "burger" refers to a specific dish. It's a meat patty, generally beef, between buns. But I've had turkey burgers, venison burgers, even the 'impossbile whopper" Isn't there something more important for Governments to worry about ? Some novel flu virus, perhaps ?
Not in the EU--try reading the summary, FFS.
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As a vegetarian, I treat the term "burger" to mean some kind of burger-shaped and burger-textured food, but not necessarily made from meat. A cafe near to my workplace sells veggie burgers of various kinds. I do not think anybody is being mislead that these are some kind of fake meat product. What a silly idea. Apart from anything else, I think the veggie products are more expensive.
Truth in advertising laws! (Score:2)
Real Dead Crunchy Tomato Burgers!
Sure. Whatever. It's still what it is though. (Score:2)
As a vegetarian, I really couldn't give two flying pigs what a vegetarian or vegan 'patty' is called - it's circular, flat, meaning a handy size to fit in a bun.
But, let's be honest here, burger does actually mean there's meat within the 'patty' - it always has.
The word Hamburger originates from Hamburg, Germany - that's pretty obvious and probably irrefutable.
It was always a meat based product. That is also irrefutable.
The shortening of it to 'burger' and the many variants there are, well, that's not so cl
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Long before veggie burgers there were fish burgers.
If veggie burgers came too late to use the name, why did fish burgers come in time? Or if they both didn't come in time, how soon after the word burger came into common use should it have been? 1 year? 5 year? What?
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Cause fish is meat. As on: Muscles (and similar parts, to some) of an animal.
If they used fishmeal, and mixed it with a bunch of chemicals, processed it, textured, colored, flavored amd literally spraypainted it, they would have "come too late" too.
Nobody has problem with a portobello (mushroom) burger or an eggplant burger or whatever vegans are eating these days.
BTW: I'm the "Meat slurry and vegan 'meat' should be designated as non-food, and candy as drugs like booze and cigarettes." type.
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There's no fish in Hamburg steak, he was using the origin of the term for what could be expected in a burger ... and it's beef.
The EU law would have banned marketing of all veggie burgers, whether it's based on mushrooms, black beans, seitan or pea protein with a bunch of gums.
Parmesan style grated cheese alternative. (Score:2)
Except of course everything but Parmesan was in tiny little print. I think anything that isn't what is classically understood by a term should include in bigger letters than the rest of the package the word 'substitute'.
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Confusing parmesan in the US, which is a FDA regulated type of American style cheese, with Parmigiano-Reggiano as a native seems almost impossible to me. If it's parmesan, it's not Parmigiano-Reggiano ... simple as.
It can be confusing for European tourists I guess, but is that really such a big deal?
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Well, guess what, it isn't legal in the EU.
Veggie? (Score:2)
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Yet you describe boiled milk as "fresh milk". ESL is classically boiled. And chemically hardly resembles milk anymore. All the essential teritary structures of the proteins are ruined.
And bread too. A foam made out of a cereal *preserve* and several drugs (in the pharma/chemist sense), like pure starch.
Not disagreeing on your point. It is is very true. Only on your examples.
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only agenda driven cultists say "climate sinners" (Score:2)
The absurdity of the unhealthy processed plant patty shills is clearly shown by the "climate sinners" phrase.
The truth is, for here in the USA as example, fossil fuel-based energy is responsible for about 80% of total greenhouse gas emissions as compared to about 3% from animal agriculture.
In short, it doesn't matter and humans are naturally meat eaters. Plant only eating historically is unhealthy and causes malnutrition and muscle atrophy. The sinners are those that pimp these unnatural highly processe
Common sense (Score:2)
In Europe Hamburgers are not made out of ham and we usually call them beef burgers, but we also have chicken and turkey burgers. We have escalopes made from turkey not veal and steaks made from shaped reconstituted meat. So it is the meat industry that started this trend and providing the description is not deliberate deceptive it should be allowed.
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Nobody but Americans think of ham when they hear hamburgers. AFAIK. ;)
People from Europe think of the city Hamburg.
So we know it must be 60% fishheads.
Seems reasonable (Score:2)
Hamburger (Score:2)
I hope they will not allow calling it an Hamburger unless it contains ham. With the possible exception of any food coming from the city of Hamburg.
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We are implying that Hamburger is short for "Hamburger Frikadelle" or "Hamburger Fleischklops". The ending -er means "of" or "from" in German. So "Meatball from Hamburg".
Sincerely,
Germany.
P.S.: All our Hamburgers contain 60% fishhead. (Germans will get it.)
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All our Hamburgers contain 60% fishhead
So do our European members of Parliament. Guaranteed.
Veggies are an endangered species (Score:2)
I haven't found any pictures of these veggie creatures or any mention of whether the are 4-legged or birds or worms. They must be so rare, we should stop eating these veggie burgers even if they do taste good.More study needed.
It should be illegal to call them *VEGGIE*. (Score:3)
"Heavily processed artificial junk product" would be more appropriate.
Or maybe "The product formerly knows as vegetables.".
(Homer: "Mmmhh, ... product...!")
At this point, it really doesn't matter anymore if the origin is vegetables, or crushed bugs and refinery refuse. "It contains protein and hydrocarbons" applies just the same in all cases. And is completely beside the point. :)
And it's not like vegans gave a shit about animals that aren't cute and cuddly. They eat tardigrades and rotifers and nematodes all day too. Which are officially animals. (No, don't put the house spider outside! The house IS its natural habitat! Putting it outside is also just killing them... in a more cruel way!)
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""Heavily processed artificial junk product" would be more appropriate.
Or maybe "The product formerly knows as vegetables.".
You actually read the label too. On one hand they say to eat less highly processed food, then they say to eat that chemical sludge instead of meat. Cognitive dissonance much?
sex industry labeling guidance (Score:2)
the sex tourism industry sure knows how to properly label things.... really, how can you get any better than 'Bangkok'?
"Reason prevailed, and climate sinners lost," (Score:5, Insightful)
"Reason prevailed, and climate sinners lost,"
And... I stopped reading right there.
Obligatory Monty Python sketch. (Score:2)
https://www.dailymotion.com/vi... [dailymotion.com]
'Climate sinners' (Score:2)
All I have to say to that, is 'FUCK YOU'.
Glad I don't live in the gods-be-damned EU, then.
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I thought it was a funny burn. You are really twisting it.
How on earth did a ban on "yogurt-style" or "cream imitation" pass anyway? "style" and "imitation" were too ambiguous???
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Speaking of climate sinners, yes, the EU parliament still packs up and moves lock stock & barrel f
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No, the ban was on those things.
It was obviously not worded like that on the packaging.
The packaging usually is intentionally and systematically designed in the most misleading way possible that leaves them with a "Technically. .." and "It's right there, on the back of the box, after monosodium glutamate. Just lift the flap and look for your language in the wall of 5pt text" legal defense.
And that was only the beginning of a very obvious slippery slope.
After five years, their legal team would have added "It
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But I suppose some people can mix up these things, though usually with no serious repercussions.
Anecdote: not long ago my father bought some caviar which I was trying at his birthday. The moment it touched my tongue I noticed something was off, then when I crushed it between my teeth I knew something was wrong with this caviar. I wasn't bad or anything like that, it just wasn't the caviar I knew. So I asked what kind of caviar it was
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The overpopulation myth was debunked 20-30 years ago. It was calculated that the planet can sustain a population of 10 billion without any problems, if done intelligently.
While true, this is still the driving ideology of environmentalist leaders (not their followers, just the leaders), especially the dogmatic variety discussed in the article. Ever wonder why its so easy to get people to oppose nuclear? Well if you don't care about making sure you can provide for the size population we currently have, then the problems with wind and solar aren't a big deal. The ideological environmental leaders are not so secretly Malthusians who simply believe the solution is fewer people
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I have to disagree when it comes to energy usage. If we actually need more production, and if nuclear was done in such a way that the final waste product was dangerous only for a few generations rather than dozens of generations
Well then I have good news for you. The fission products from reactors are only hot for at most 300 years and in practice its more like 100 years. That's 5 generations. Is that good enough for you?
But FIRST, we can cut about 65% of usage. Office buildings that use over a megawatt when not even occupied, people pointlessly cramming the streets to all go back and forth to these office buildings at the exact same time, industrial usage, etc. and last (and in absolute terms least) inefficient (often uninsulated) homes are all low hanging fruit to fix before we even need to talk about generating more energy
Those heat losses aren't something we can really do much about. More insulation you say? Turns out the insulation creates more extraction to make the insulation than it saves in energy. Want to circulate less air? People hate that and it causes the virus to spread more rapidly in indoor environments. Look,
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for at most 300 years and in practice its more like 100 years.
That's some jazzy hand-waving there. Almost as good as our president.
only hot...heat losses...thermodynamics...Carnot cycle
Not everything is an entropy equation. Maybe you should quit day drinking? Or get an air conditioner? Are you sweating?
Ever since Edison, Westinghouse, et al the entire purpose of making a grid was to make it easy for people to consume as much as possible.
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for at most 300 years and in practice its more like 100 years.
That's some jazzy hand-waving there. Almost as good as our president.
The fission products with a half-life of more than a year are:
Not all reactors produce all of these things but these are the longest lived nuclear "waste" that are produced. Current gen reactors also produce Pu which is a different issue but Thorium reactors do not. Pu is an issue (as it has a 25k year half-life) which is why you see so much interest in Thorium. Pu can also be fissioned by an
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I'm assuming you're talking about existing construction, because a new building constructed today is going to have a lot less energy usage than one built thirty years ago.
Reducing building envelope heat losses (and gains in the summer air conditioning season) is not the only way to reduce energy usage in an office building. Fixing controls can go a long way towards reducing energy consumption. And when it comes time to replace equipment, g
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If by intelligent you mean with completely unhumanlike and thus forced sacrifice for the world communal good, requiring totalitarian control.
Maybe it's intelligent if you make me the world dictator.
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There's no easy way back, the only way is forward.
Singularity or apocalyptic decline, those are the options.
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You could take meat and make a "Carrot Cake" though.
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"Meat Carrots." Which I don't find any more absurd than "sweetbread [merriam-webster.com]."
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"Burger" describes a preparation and shape, not content. Just like "roast," believe it or not.
Carrot describes content, not preparation and shape. So no, you cannot.
This has been yet another lesson in "false equivalence is not actual equivalence."
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I Agree, but there might also be a language issue, because "Burger" ALSO describe the "beaf patty" found inside a hamburger burger.
Why someone named the meat part of a burger as burger I don't understand.
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People love to shorten names and phrases for linguistic efficiency, and then certain commercial interests decide that the shortened form can only be referring to the most popular form.
Meanwhile, as the less popular forms become more popular, people begin to expand the names and phrases to eliminate ambiguity. Nobody is selling tofu burgers as simply "burgers," and nobody seeing "tofu burgers" is reasonably confusing them with beef bur
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Comes right after somebody PANTing while putting on a PAIR of PANTs, for me...
But hey, quatre-vingt dix-neuf = 4x20 + 10+9 = 99. Other languages are weird too.
I just wish for English to get back the words "Doch!" and "Bitte(schön)" from German(ic). That is all I'm saying.
("Doch" is when somebody says no, and you want to say yes but at the same time say that you disagree. If we would just say yes, we might sould like we agree. And we Germans can't have that!)
Re: Carrots (Score:2)
It's not different than calling beef a "ham"burger.