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EU

EU Says Veggie Burgers Can Keep Their Name (nytimes.com) 165

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
When is a burger not a burger? When it contains no meat. At least according to a divisive proposal that was in front of the European Parliament this week, part of a set of measures that would have banned the use of terms like "steak," "sausage," "escallop" or "burger" on labels for plant-based alternative products. But after a decisive vote against the measure on Friday, it seems veggie burgers will still be on the menu. From a report: "Reason prevailed, and climate sinners lost," Nikolaj Villumsen, a member of the European Parliament from Denmark posted on Twitter. "It's worth celebrating with a veggie burger." A proposal to expand a ban on descriptions such as "yogurt-style" or "cream imitation" for nondairy replacements did pass, extending previous limitations on the use of words like "milk" and "butter" on nondairy alternatives. The proposed changes -- a small part of a package of agricultural measures -- received more attention than perhaps desired either by their proponents among meat and livestock groups, who said they would prefer to focus on helping farmers work sustainably, or the environmentalists and food manufacturers opposing it, for whom it is a distraction from climate-change policy. Jasmijn de Boo, vice president of ProVeg International, a group aimed at reducing meat consumption, said that the proposal was not in the interest of consumers or manufacturers, and that shoppers were not confused by the labels currently on store shelves.
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EU Says Veggie Burgers Can Keep Their Name More

EU Says Veggie Burgers Can Keep Their Name

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  • Thanks (Score:2, Funny)

    by Kohath ( 38547 )

    What do you guys do to thank your European overlords when they permit you to continue to communicate the way you're used to? Is there some sort of gratitude ritual that humble subjects perform? Such benevolent understanding from your majestic rulers can't be allowed to pass by without acknowledgement, can it?

    • Re:Thanks (Score:5, Informative)

      by curtis3389 ( 5534388 ) on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:09PM (#60640440)

      The meat industry is trying the same tactics in the US. This is not a Europe-only issue.

      Many industries try to use their regulatory capture to force newcomers to use different terms for their products to make them less appealing to consumers.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by fyngyrz ( 762201 )

        Exactly this.

        I don't care what you call something. I care what it is. As long as the ingredients are on the package, that's covered, and I can make informed decisions.

        • What if something was called "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters" but included a large amount of non-nerdy content that really is fairly inconsequential outside a few specially interested parties, such as whether people are allowed to describe a burger made from plants as a burger.

          While maybe not wrong, wouldn't that seem at least a little shady?

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by DRJlaw ( 946416 )

            While maybe not wrong, wouldn't that seem at least a little shady?

            You're welcome to take your custom elsewhere. The last time I checked, "nerd' was not limited to technology, but intellectual pursuits.

            Both situations are accused of being "shady" because one subpopulation has decided to appropriate and limit use of the term to their own narrow interests. It's not being shady, it's a rejection of that appropriation.

            • I suppose a person could lower the bar far enough that musing about whether or not something is a burger could be called an "intellectual pursuit", but I'm not buying it.
          • Here, have a full refund.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 )
          You're forgetting that the average person is actually pretty dumb and doesn't read ingredient or nutrition labels, they look at the picture or what's in the package, what it's called on the package, and what it costs.
          Luckily for them they'll see the price on so-called 'plant-based meat substitutes' and cringe at how outrageously expensive it is, put it back down, and buy the real thing instead. Only rich white people who want to virtue signal and/or make themselves 'feel like they're making a difference' w

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by Luthair ( 847766 )
        Heck, the American butter industry blocked margarine from being coloured for a long time and used to come white with packets of food colouring.

        • Uum, hate to tell ya, but fresh butter is or can be white too. Like cream and milk.
          In natural butter, it's what the cows eat, and how old and rancid the butter is.
          Unless they put food coloring in it in the US...

          • Comment removed based on user account deletion

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by Luthair ( 847766 )
              Its not hard to look it up, its even in the margarine article [wikipedia.org] on wikipedia. I was actually in Quebec for a couple years around the time they ended the practice (much later than anywhere else....)

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by fazig ( 2909523 )
              As far as I know the colour depends on what kind of stuff the cows eat.

              Beta-carotene is what gives it the yellowish colour. And as the conventional wisdom here goes, fresh grass contains quite a bit of beta-carotene.
              Hence a yellow butter colour suggests cattle that's held on pastures with fresh grass.

              Though in reality the probably just put beta-carotene into everything they use to feed their milk cows. Because that way they don't have to declare it as an additive, while if they put it directly into the

      • "...and climate sinners lost", Nikolaj Villumsen, a member of the European Parliament from Denmark posted on Twitter."

        Seriously?

        Wow, I think this points out the type of extremists that are out there wanting to dictate what you should eat and judging you on your lifestyle.

        Someone that prefers to eat as traditional humans have since, well, forever....vs a highly processed new product, often with more fat and salt...is now a fucking "climate sinner"?

        JFC....when did the world get to where this type of rad

      • Oh noes! Liars cannot lie about what a product is in their names anymore!

        You Americans are *crazy* to is EU-Europeans. You side *with* the lyars and fraudsters? You side *with* big business interests? But aren't you the *workers*? The *consumers*?

        You don't understand. We in the EU *want* this.

        To us, you sound lile little bully Rockefeller in school went "Why do you hit yourself?"... and you started honestly believing not only that *you* are hitting yourself, but that you are the bully too! :)

        Bit of a North

    • Re:Thanks (Score:5, Insightful)

      by RandomUsername99 ( 574692 ) on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:09PM (#60640442)

      As opposed to who, the US? Do you realize how tightly controlled food marketing terminology is here? There's a good chance the US Beef and Dairy industries are going to stop US companies from calling their products "milk," "beef," et al. The difference is that in our country it will be largely decided by how much the industry is willing to pony up to stuff politicians' pockets rather than a regulation committee. Winning?

      • Well said (Score:5, Interesting)

        by bb_matt ( 5705262 ) on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:49PM (#60640676)

        This is exactly what was entirely missed when the UK decided to leave the EU - that the regulations imposed are actually, largely, *improvements* on the status-quo that existed before.

        Sure, there's a ton of bureaucratic craziness within the EU and it's certainly not squeaky clean, not by a long shot.
        But the point is, it is an attempt to find consensus amongst its members - trade agreements, climate agreements, agreements on law.
        It is an attempt to be more civilised, to have more open debate.

        Has it always succeeded? Heck no, far from it.
        Is it better than what was there before? Erm, well, there's this small matter of WWII and before that, a small matter of numerous wars within the region.
        So, yeah, it's better than what went before.

        That's why, when I read the utter bullshit about 'freedom to choose' and 'you can't tell us what to do', I just despair, I really do.
        People are just so damn ignorant for the most part.

      • You are severely out of date.

        Nobody respectable bribes anymore. That is first-generation lobbyism.
        Their lobbyists just ARE the politicians nowadays. Third generation lobbyism.
        The only ones still paying up, are the third-rate interest groups who have to use the lobbyist-politicians of others, and aren't competent in controlling the input those politicians receive by flooding conferences and the media with their talking heads, aka second-generation lobbyism.

    • Re:Thanks (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Guybrush_T ( 980074 ) on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:12PM (#60640458)

      Might sound funny, but this is actually one case where the EU Parliament is doing its useful job.

      Consumer protection is important if you want companies and citizens to have a balanced relationship. And yes, defining how things can be called is part of that.

      In the case at hand, I find it extremely hard in the US to distinguish pizzas which have vegan cheese or a cauliflower-based crust, because they try to blend as much as they can as a "regular" pizza. And as much as I support vegans, I really hate vegan cheese.

      Similarly, it's sometimes pretty hard to know what you're buying when looking for burgers. I've seen 100% meet, some with a mix of meet and onions, soy-based products, etc ... These have their place in the supermarket only if what is in the product is abundantly clear to the buyer.

      And I guess their conclusion was that as long as the product it replaces is not mentioned it was ok. Like, beef-like, soy-chicken or similar terms would not have been allowed, but soy patties, soy burgers, soy nuggets are fine since they don't have any meet name in it. Even steak is fine, since beef has been removed from "beef steak".

      So yes, we thank them for their decision, at least the bureaucracy served its citizens instead of wasting the taxpayer's money. Way to go EU.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by stikves ( 127823 )

        You realize this is very condescending right?

        Yesterday I was at Costco. There was Cheese pizza, and next to it Cauliflower pizza. No way to mix them up, especially when the latter costs much more.
        There were Beef patties, "Beyond Meat" patties, Fish Patties, and again a regular person would not mix them up either.

        And even though I love meat, I sometimes sample vegan alternatives. And if I see "soy chicken", or "tofurky" I can know which taste to expect. If I only see "soy nuggets", it would be more difficult

        • Not sure what was condescending. Anyway, it wasn't indeed very clear, my apologies, but I'm not saying all labels are confusing. There are some that are very clear and I'm fine with it. But I also found it hard in some cases to actually know what was what until I spent a decent amount of time reading the fine print. I'm not super familiar with Costco (I don't buy frozen stuff there usually) but it happened to me at Safeway and Whole Foods.

          And that was not to say the US should pass similar laws or anything.

        • And yes, vegan cheese tastes terrible, so do vegan yogurt.

          Some of them really are terrible, but not all. You just haven't found the good ones yet. The best ones I found so far are Daiya, Earth Island / Follow Your Heart, Nafsika's Garden. Some are better than others depending on how you use them (ex: cold/as-is, hot/melted, etc)

          • Then take a peek at those ingedients and processing methods then.

            They only taste crap if the manufacturer actually gave a crap about it being healthy. The better it tastes, the more sketchy the manufacturing an inredients.
            Because soy beans naturally taste like ... soy beans. Surprise, surprise. ;)
            Beans, in general are great, and a good pot of beans, onions, beef and whatever is quite tasty. I do not even single out soy, even though there are better ones.
            It is not a yoghurt however.
            It's always gonna be artif

            • I don't think any of those are based on soy. Especially Daiya, they make their products as allergen-free as possible.

              As for being healthy, do you think something like "Kraft Singles" is made of quality natural ingredients? You can only complain about vegan substitutes if you are on a raw diet. Even cooking meat is unnatural, for example.

              • As for being healthy, do you think something like "Kraft Singles" is made of quality natural ingredients?

                Yum, pasteurized process cheese food product...

        • It is not about being condescending to you. We know you can tell.

          It is is about the slippery slope. About stopping sleazebags early. Because you STILL can tell.

          We specifically had that point with "analog cheese" in Germany, a decade ago.
          Manufacturers slipped in ever more *misleading but technically cop-out-able* names and descriptions, specifically to cheat people into buying cheaper crap for higher prices. You know, cause that is what "free-market capitalism" means in practice, as sorry as I am to tell you

          • IDK how you all do things over there, but here in the states the labels are pretty easy to read and understand. There is almost no way you can accidentally buy almond milk over regular cow milk. If you did, you clearly didn't read anything at all.

            The same is said for the meat counter. It's extremely obvious what is meat and what is not. If you don't want surprises, buy raw meat and do all the seasoning yourself. Taste better and will be healthier then anything processed.

            Frozen food should be avoided general

        • If I see soy chicken I would expect it to be chicken +soy as in the popular asian dish, not tofu!

        • Nope, the definition of cheese is a dairy product that results after curdling casein.
          Rennet is not a necessary prerequisite of cheese, vinegar or lemon juice can create cheese out of milk too. Lactic acid bacteria also work.

      • I have never had any problem with "vegan" cheese being on pizza. It's all real cheese, unless you specifically buy a vegan product. Also, you can just call the pizza place and ask them what kind of cheese they use. Where do you live in the US where this is a problem?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Sique ( 173459 )
          Actually, it's not cheese in most cases, it's what called "analogue cheese". That is, the fat is mainly not milk fat, but some other fat (e.g. palm oil), and the proteins are not necessary milk protein, but from some other cheap protein source like soy.

        • No, selling cheese analog as cheese is illegal in Germany and I think in the EU too.
          The court case was specifically about pizza
          .
          It was a big scandal around here, and a meme for years.
          Nobody here dares to sell that crap anymore, as literally every pizza place was asked about it every day until a law forced them to warn customers in the menu and list of ingredients. Nobody bought it.

      • In the case at hand, I find it extremely hard in the US to distinguish pizzas which have vegan cheese or a cauliflower-based crust, because they try to blend as much as they can as a "regular" pizza. And as much as I support vegans, I really hate vegan cheese.

        What? Every pizza place I've seen either distinguishes themselves as selling only vegan or only cauliflower crust, OR if they also sell regular pizza 99.95% of their menu is regular and there is one vegan or one cauliflower option. Not only that but "Vegan cheese" is usually at least $5 extra.

        • I'ts about supermarkets. Safeway, Lucky, Whole Foods, ... Some are easy to see some are pretty hard to recognize.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Jhon ( 241832 )

        " but soy patties, soy burgers, soy nuggets are fine since they don't have any meet name in it. Even steak is fine, since beef has been removed from "beef steak"."

        So, what about buffalo wings?

        If I can't call it Steak-like, can I call it "Smells like Stake"? Or "Tastes-like-Milque"

      • Similarly, it's sometimes pretty hard to know what you're buying when looking for burgers.

        How hard is it to figure out you have a burger?

        I mean, you buy a package of ground beef, it is plainly labeled.

        In general, you can even see the % of lean beef vs % fat content.

        You take it home and patty it up and grill or otherwise cook your burger.

        It's plain and simple.

        You MAKE hamburgers, if you go get pre-made stuff, then well, you end up with your veggie patties, etc....and on that, you just read the ingredi

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Rei ( 128717 )

      It is pretty annoying. They're all measures to protect entrenched interests. In horticulture for example we have very few native pests and plant diseases, but lots of potential for imported pests and diseases to wreak havoc. So obviously the best solution would just be to ban importation of species that are at risk of carrying problematic vectors, right? Hahahaha noooo, not a chance, if we do that, then that'll be considered favoritism to domestic growers, and countries like Denmark and Holland will sue us

    • Why wouldn't they be able to use veggie burger, hamburgers are not made out of ham.

      • Etymology of 'hamburger' originally comes from Hamburg, Germany. Separation of the term 'burger' came later. That being said, I have no objection to 'veggie burger' (in my mind, it more than adequately describes it as being "not meat"... but does lead one to ponder what "cheese burger" really means) and I think this whole this is pretty silly. Trying to eliminate any ambiguity in the naming of things seems like a fool's errand.

  • It's not like "burger" refers to a specific dish. It's a meat patty, generally beef, between buns. But I've had turkey burgers, venison burgers, even the 'impossbile whopper" Isn't there something more important for Governments to worry about ? Some novel flu virus, perhaps ?

    • Isn't there something more important for Governments to worry about ?

      Yeah, like how "boneless chicken wings" aren't wings at all. THAT needs regulation.

      • The "boneless chicken wings" problem pales in comparison with the "buffalo wings" problem. Why are governments not doing anything about that?

        • Wait, isn't the last one short for "Buffalo-style"? As in "Like folks from a place called Buffalo do it"?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by MikeKD ( 549924 )

      It's not like "burger" refers to a specific dish. It's a meat patty, generally beef, between buns. But I've had turkey burgers, venison burgers, even the 'impossbile whopper" Isn't there something more important for Governments to worry about ? Some novel flu virus, perhaps ?

      Not in the EU--try reading the summary, FFS.

    • As a vegetarian, I treat the term "burger" to mean some kind of burger-shaped and burger-textured food, but not necessarily made from meat. A cafe near to my workplace sells veggie burgers of various kinds. I do not think anybody is being mislead that these are some kind of fake meat product. What a silly idea. Apart from anything else, I think the veggie products are more expensive.

  • Real Dead Crunchy Tomato Burgers!

  • As a vegetarian, I really couldn't give two flying pigs what a vegetarian or vegan 'patty' is called - it's circular, flat, meaning a handy size to fit in a bun.

    But, let's be honest here, burger does actually mean there's meat within the 'patty' - it always has.

    The word Hamburger originates from Hamburg, Germany - that's pretty obvious and probably irrefutable.
    It was always a meat based product. That is also irrefutable.

    The shortening of it to 'burger' and the many variants there are, well, that's not so cl

    • Long before veggie burgers there were fish burgers.

      If veggie burgers came too late to use the name, why did fish burgers come in time? Or if they both didn't come in time, how soon after the word burger came into common use should it have been? 1 year? 5 year? What?

      • Cause fish is meat. As on: Muscles (and similar parts, to some) of an animal.
        If they used fishmeal, and mixed it with a bunch of chemicals, processed it, textured, colored, flavored amd literally spraypainted it, they would have "come too late" too.

        Nobody has problem with a portobello (mushroom) burger or an eggplant burger or whatever vegans are eating these days.

        BTW: I'm the "Meat slurry and vegan 'meat' should be designated as non-food, and candy as drugs like booze and cigarettes." type.

        • There's no fish in Hamburg steak, he was using the origin of the term for what could be expected in a burger ... and it's beef.

          The EU law would have banned marketing of all veggie burgers, whether it's based on mushrooms, black beans, seitan or pea protein with a bunch of gums.

  • If there is no cheese in it then the word Parmesan should not be legal. I fell for this once as the labeling was almost exactly like the real thing.

    Except of course everything but Parmesan was in tiny little print. I think anything that isn't what is classically understood by a term should include in bigger letters than the rest of the package the word 'substitute'.

    • Confusing parmesan in the US, which is a FDA regulated type of American style cheese, with Parmigiano-Reggiano as a native seems almost impossible to me. If it's parmesan, it's not Parmigiano-Reggiano ... simple as.

      It can be confusing for European tourists I guess, but is that really such a big deal?

    • Well, guess what, it isn't legal in the EU.

  • I'd be more concerned about the "Veggie" part of the name. I've never seen a veggie that looks or tastes like a burger, and I'd never describe modified soy proteins (or whatever) as a veggie.

    • Yet you describe boiled milk as "fresh milk". ESL is classically boiled. And chemically hardly resembles milk anymore. All the essential teritary structures of the proteins are ruined.

      And bread too. A foam made out of a cereal *preserve* and several drugs (in the pharma/chemist sense), like pure starch.

      Not disagreeing on your point. It is is very true. Only on your examples.

    • I have the same complaint about 'veggie' chips

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Layzej ( 1976930 )
        Potato is already a vegetable! :) (And I get my 2 servings a day per the Canadian food guide)

  • The absurdity of the unhealthy processed plant patty shills is clearly shown by the "climate sinners" phrase.

    The truth is, for here in the USA as example, fossil fuel-based energy is responsible for about 80% of total greenhouse gas emissions as compared to about 3% from animal agriculture.

    In short, it doesn't matter and humans are naturally meat eaters. Plant only eating historically is unhealthy and causes malnutrition and muscle atrophy. The sinners are those that pimp these unnatural highly processe

  • In Europe Hamburgers are not made out of ham and we usually call them beef burgers, but we also have chicken and turkey burgers. We have escalopes made from turkey not veal and steaks made from shaped reconstituted meat. So it is the meat industry that started this trend and providing the description is not deliberate deceptive it should be allowed.

    • Nobody but Americans think of ham when they hear hamburgers. AFAIK.
      People from Europe think of the city Hamburg.
      So we know it must be 60% fishheads. ;)

  • I'm a meat eater, but if you make a product similar to a meat product and add the qualifier 'veggie' to it, what is the problem ? And 'burger' doesn't even mean 'meat'. It's a shortcut of hamburger. Which stems from the city of Hamburg. Nothing in its root implies it's a meat product. And looking at how most burgers taste like in the US, they are not all that different from oily sawdust anyway. I always thought that taking a good steak and grinding it is only for toothless old hags or tasteless customers.

  • I hope they will not allow calling it an Hamburger unless it contains ham. With the possible exception of any food coming from the city of Hamburg.

    • We are implying that Hamburger is short for "Hamburger Frikadelle" or "Hamburger Fleischklops". The ending -er means "of" or "from" in German. So "Meatball from Hamburg".

      Sincerely,

      Germany.

      P.S.: All our Hamburgers contain 60% fishhead. (Germans will get it.)

  • I haven't found any pictures of these veggie creatures or any mention of whether the are 4-legged or birds or worms. They must be so rare, we should stop eating these veggie burgers even if they do taste good.More study needed.

  • It should be illegal to call them *VEGGIE*. (Score:3)

    by BAReFO0t ( 6240524 ) on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:49PM (#60640952)

    "Heavily processed artificial junk product" would be more appropriate.
    Or maybe "The product formerly knows as vegetables.".

    (Homer: "Mmmhh, ... product...!")

    At this point, it really doesn't matter anymore if the origin is vegetables, or crushed bugs and refinery refuse. "It contains protein and hydrocarbons" applies just the same in all cases. And is completely beside the point. :)

    And it's not like vegans gave a shit about animals that aren't cute and cuddly. They eat tardigrades and rotifers and nematodes all day too. Which are officially animals. (No, don't put the house spider outside! The house IS its natural habitat! Putting it outside is also just killing them... in a more cruel way!)

    • ""Heavily processed artificial junk product" would be more appropriate.
      Or maybe "The product formerly knows as vegetables.".

      You actually read the label too. On one hand they say to eat less highly processed food, then they say to eat that chemical sludge instead of meat. Cognitive dissonance much?

  • the sex tourism industry sure knows how to properly label things.... really, how can you get any better than 'Bangkok'?

  • "Reason prevailed, and climate sinners lost," (Score:5, Insightful)

    by farble1670 ( 803356 ) on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:07PM (#60641306)

    "Reason prevailed, and climate sinners lost,"

    And... I stopped reading right there.

  • Basically 'meat shaming'.
    All I have to say to that, is 'FUCK YOU'.
    Glad I don't live in the gods-be-damned EU, then.

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