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Computer Designed Car Sets Speed Record 247

Posted by ScuttleMonkey
from the sitting-on-a-rocket-and-lighting-the-fuse dept.
amcdiarmid writes "Several sources are reporting that the first entirely computer designed car, the JCB Dieselmax, has broken the diesel speed record of 236MPH at a speed of 328MPH. From the article: 'The record attempt came after a string of trial runs on the runways at the airbase. But while testing went well, the team endured a troubled time in the US. The combination of the altitude (4,000ft) and the higher air temperatures affected the performance of the second engine, which was generating insufficient turbo boost pressure and led to days of work for the small team of engineering experts.'"
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Computer Designed Car Sets Speed Record

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  • by ackthpt (218170) * on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @06:47PM (#15966193) Homepage Journal

    broken the diesel speed record of 236MPH at a speed of 328MPH.

    But they could probably top 350 MPH if they'd ditch the CB antenna and Yosemite Sam "Back Off" mudflaps.

    this thing gets some real looks at the Sapp Bros.

    • by Tackhead (54550) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @07:06PM (#15966301)
      > But they could probably top 350 MPH if they'd ditch the CB antenna and Yosemite Sam "Back Off" mudflaps.

      Me an' Tim was haulin' chickens
      O'er a lakebed outa Wiggins
      And we had spent all night on the uphill side,
      Of thirty seven hundred square miles of hell called Bonneville Flats,
      (Which was up on the great divide...)

      And we was sittin' there readin' Slashdot,
      And moderatin' like Crow T. Trollbot,
      And I says "Tim, let's send an Internet down the tubes,
      And then send them chickens on down t'other side"
      (Yeah, lets give them hens a ride.)

      Chorus:
      Bonneville flats, way up on the great divide,
      Truckin' on down, the other side.

      Leverton put down his bottle,
      With Andy's foot down on the throttle,
      Ate a couple o' smores, then 1500 horse,
      from a two-thousand-ought-six Dieselmax screamed to life.
      (We woke up the chickens.)

      We roared up off'n that shoulder,
      Sprayin' pine cones rocks 'n boulders,
      And put four hundred head of them Rhode Island Reds
      And a couple of burnt out roosters on the line.
      (Look out below. 'cause here we go...)

      ...and I really don't have to change another word of Wolf Creek Pass [narrowgauge.org], by C.W. McCall, from that point onwards, because the ride was just about as hairy.

      'Cept for that feed store in downtown Pagosa Springs. Place was still a mess from when that truck done run through it.

      • by Nate B. (2907)
        That brings back memories! I knew right away the source of your parody.

        As a kid I was a big C.W. McCall fan and had most of the albums (yes, real vinyl albums) plus a couple on 8-track. I'd borrow mom's stereo to play them. The things my folks put up with. :-D

    • But they could probably top 350 MPH if they'd ditch the CB antenna and Yosemite Sam "Back Off" mudflaps.

      I don't get it. I use CB, and there's very few magnet mount antennas that won't get blown off at speeds over 65 MPH, and it took some research to find one that had a strong enough magnet to handle Oregon's highest freeway speeds (70 MPH...nobody goes faster because it's cost prohibitive to get a ticket at speeds higher than that since once you're going 70, you're probably going 15 faster than posted, a

    • But they could probably top 350 MPH if they'd ditch the CB antenna and Yosemite Sam "Back Off" mudflaps.

      Maybe so, but I doubt they could have still not jumped into the 8th dimension and driven through a mountain.

      At least not without the oscillation overthruster.
  • by User 956 (568564) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @06:49PM (#15966205) Homepage
    Several sources are reporting that the first entirely computer designed car, the JCB Dieselmax, has broken the diesel speed record of 236MPH at a speed of 328MPH.

    ..and it will help those computers find Sarah Connor just that much more quickly.
    • by cloricus (691063)
      You are assuming that they understand American whats its instead of the distance and speeds that the rest of the world uses. Any one care to translate them to metric so that our new machine overlords have an easier time?
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Majik Sheff (930627)
        Approx 528 Km/H or 881664 furlongs/fortnight
      • by N Monkey (313423)
        You are assuming that they understand American whats its instead of the distance and speeds that the rest of the world uses. Any one care to translate them to metric so that our new machine overlords have an easier time?
        Well, the vehicle is British so the speeds would be in MPH but the fuel tank size would be measured in litres. Wonderful consistency for you :-)
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @06:52PM (#15966211)
    a diesel computer designed car going 328 MPH filled with hard drives.
  • by chill (34294) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @06:53PM (#15966220) Journal
    ...on the next day of testing, it again bested the record. This time it was 350.092 MPH. http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?t ype=topNews&storyID=2006-08-23T151359Z_01_L2331696 1_RTRUKOC_0_UK-TRANSPORT-DIESEL-RECORD.xml [reuters.co.uk]
    • by BWJones (18351) * on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @07:34PM (#15966441) Homepage Journal
      Yeah, this was their plan to do it incrementally. I got some great shots of the JCB team doing their thing during Speed Week here [utah.edu]. The Dieselmax team was having some problems setting up the car for the salt and were gradually working their way up and had planned all along to really go for the record the week or so after Speed Week.

      • Stunning pictures! I know very little about cars or racing, but I would have loved to have been out there...
        • by BWJones (18351) *
          Thanks! You really do not have to know alot about racing to enjoy the atmosphere out there. I am an unabashed gearhead, but my friends are not and they are absolutely hooked on attending.

      • I used to do a lot in IR with film, had to develope my own slides in the E4 process, which was fun.
        • by BWJones (18351) *
          I've done a bit of IR with film and you are right, it is fun. Shooting digital is interesting because most manufacturers place IR filters over the CCDs. Sometimes you can pry them off if you wanna risk it to your digital SLR, but there are also models which are optimized for astrophotography that do not have the IR filters on them....

    • ...They took our advice. [slashdot.org] A person or organizations prosperity is parallel to the seriousness taken while reading slashdot.
  • by Reality Master 101 (179095) <RealityMaster101@NOsPAM.gmail.com> on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @06:54PM (#15966222) Homepage Journal

    But while testing went well, the team endured a troubled time in the US.

    Sources said the motor had been making an unbelievably loud clunking sound, as well as spewing black smoke. Only later did they figure out that was the way the engine was supposed to sound.

    (/RM101, the not-so-proud one-time owner of a Diesel Mercedes Benz, the loudest, most embarrassing-to-drive car he's ever owned)

    • Hopefully the black smoke thing will go away as the fuel is changed in the US [chicagotribune.com] (if it is ever changed). Certainly here in the UK diesel seems to have little difference to gas beyond diesel's greater fuel efficiency and slightly higher price, ever since they mandated a change in refining. I have to say it still gives off slightly worse fumes* than regular gas, but the difference is much less significant in comparison to just 10 years ago.

      *in terms of odour and appearance
      • Re:Deisel motors (Score:5, Informative)

        by BLKMGK (34057) <morejunk4me&hotmail,com> on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @08:08PM (#15966595) Homepage Journal
        This particular diesel doesn't smoke - it's running a blended mix to help prevent that. Black smoke is unburned fuel and a sign of an improperly tuned diesel. The low sulphur fuel will help air quality and allow us to FINALLY get some of the better diesels here but I don't think it will change the exhaust smoke since if the car is running right it shouldn't smoke anyway. I've got a new TDI and I've yet to see any smoke but expect to see some come Winter...
        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by arivanov (12034)

          The only way not to see smoke ever is to do additional injection of propane into the fuel mix which is known as gas-diesel, eco-diesel or white diesel (depending on the country). It is quite common in European public transport. In some places (Milan, other Italian cities, parts of Germany, etc) most of public transport runs on this and it is great. No smoke whatsoever. Unfortunately (as most things invented by Germans on the continent) it is not allowed for cars and trucks in the UK. You can have it on a bo

        • by Bertie (87778)
          You've never seen it smoke? Next time you're on the freeway, drop it into third and overtake, and watch for that big black puff out the back. It's only for a fraction of a second, but it'll smoke all right.
      • Re:Deisel motors (Score:5, Informative)

        by afidel (530433) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @08:20PM (#15966644)
        The black smoke hasn't been a problem for properly maintained engines ever, but much cleaner diesel's should be available in the US this fall. Refineries have been producing S15 Low Sulphur diesel since June and all retail outlets should have it by October 15th according to EPA requirements. This means that manufacturers can start importing designs from europe that are designed to run on ultra low sulphur diesel fuel. These designs are MUCH less polluting then engines designed for low grade diesel. For more info see link [chevron.com]
        • by Nutria (679911)
          This means that manufacturers can start importing designs from europe that are designed to run on ultra low sulphur diesel fuel. These designs are MUCH less polluting then engines designed for low grade diesel.

          How will "engines designed for low grade diesel" react to LS diesel oil?

          Will they need to be retuned?

    • Modern diesels (say, designed in the past 25 years) aren't much noisier than petrols, and are a hell of a lot cleaner. I think the big problem is that American manufacturers just can't make a decent engine, either petrol *or* diesel. Pretty much all the US V8s I've heard have been mechanically *much* noisier than anything else - probably because of their antiquated pushrod designs. Did you know the rest of the world has moved onto overhead cams now?
    • Come to Europe and get a whiff of my domestic (Renault) diesel car, it runs fine. But I actually have it maintained, as you obviously didn't with your mercedes diesel.

      I know Americans associate diesel with trucks and stuff, but here in Europe a fairly large quantity (I estimate 33-50%) of domestic cars run on diesel. It has better mileage, cheaper fuel (which is still a bigger issue here, even now we pay about twice as much for our fuel as you do) and with turbo and injections they are at least as quick as
      • I've been working at a fuel retail depot (a gas station, in the "new" English), and I've noticed that a lot of Europeans ask for Diesel (which we don't have, of course, this being Canada with its insanely backwards fuel laws). Nice folks. I like how they're the only ones who NEVER complain about the price of gas. Being harangued by old men about how Iranians are surely paying less than we are for petroleum gets old fast -- especially since our gas is only expensive because of the free-trade deal with US
  • The Speed of /. (Score:3, Informative)

    by 1+(smarterThanYou) (539258) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @07:01PM (#15966268) Homepage
    http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/23/diesel-powered- car-edges-on-half-the-speed-of-sound/ [engadget.com] Apparently Slashdot isn't as fast as it used to be. That car has already hit 360+ mph. 320+ mph is now old hat. As an aside, all these smaller blogs seem to be able to keep up with the news much better than slashdot these days. I often find myself with a feeling of deja vu when I'm on Slashdot, as I've no doubt read the clippings elsewhere a few days prior. Ah, the problems inherent in scale.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Moofie (22272)
      So go. I won't miss you. Promise.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Waffle Iron (339739)
      I often find myself with a feeling of deja vu when I'm on Slashdot, as I've no doubt read the clippings elsewhere a few days prior.

      Does that really matter in the big scheme of things? When I was a kid, I found out about stuff like this in places like Popular Science magazine. Most all the tech news I read was already at least a couple of months old by the time I saw it, but despite that I seem to have turned out OK.

  • ... but I want a car that can break the sound barrier [wikipedia.org]. That way I can visit the fiance in 4 hours instead of 8.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Interestingly enough, as well as a common driver (as pointed out in the post above), both vehicles had their aerodynamics designed by Ron Ayers.

      http://www.jcbdieselmax.com/html/team.php?team_id= 5 [jcbdieselmax.com]
    • from the link .....................
      Thrust SSC (Super Sonic Car) is a British designed and built jet propelled car developed by Richard Noble and Ron Ayers, which holds the world land speed record. It is powered by two afterburning Rolls-Royce Spey engines, as used in British variants of the F-4 Phantom II. It is 54 ft (16.5 m) long, 12 ft (3.7 m) wide and weighs 10.5 tons.

      On October 15, 1997 in the Black Rock Desert in Nevada USA, driven by Andy Green, ThrustSSC became the first land vehicle to smash the so
  • by ScentCone (795499) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @07:02PM (#15966273)
    The connotation is that someone signed onto a machine somewhere and at the command prompt, typed "design_car -fast -diesel", and poof, there's the design.

    It's a human-designed car, designed by humans using computers (as they have for decades), and no pencils this time. TFA goes on and on about all the people on the team and the work they did, and that's great. So, what's with the headline and summary?
    • You're full of it. The article is 100% true.

      This post was designed by a computer.
    • by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) (613870) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @07:22PM (#15966376) Journal
      design_car -fast -diesel
      What is it with these Linux geeks. They think the whole world works on the command line. Everyone knows that this car was built by double clicking on "Car", selecting "diesel" in the "Car Design Wizard" and then pushing the speed slider to the top. And apparently there's a hidden option in the registry that increases the range of the speed slider so we expect this record to be broken again very soon.
    • Agree. When I read the title I thought that they had used genetic algorithms or some other evolutionary approach and let the computer churn out the most aerodynamically efficient design, but plain old CAD? Yawn.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by lemonylimey (745130)
      What's trying to be said on the site is that the car didn't undergo any physical testing or prototypes before the metal was cut for the production car. The mechanical parts were tested with Finite Element Analysis and, more notably, the Aerodynamics entirely with Computational Fluid Dynamics. Although most cars are designed entirely on computers these days (The Deiselmax on Unigraphics, incidentally), they'll invariably make a model of the car and test it in a physical wind tunnel. This is true of even ultr
  • FYI (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hurfy (735314) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @07:03PM (#15966286)
    Since it was the 1st thought i had......

    Gas-powered seems to be at 410mph

    No idea why that record held so long for diesel at what seems a low number (236 vs 410)
    • Re:FYI (Score:4, Informative)

      by DragonWriter (970822) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @07:19PM (#15966360)
      IIRC, diesel engines generally produce less power output per pound of engine weight, which hurts them in speed contests against gasoline negines. Their advantage in many applications is that they are more cost effective in terms of the kind and quantity of fuel consumed to do their work.
      • Re:FYI (Score:4, Informative)

        by LunaticTippy (872397) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @07:40PM (#15966465)
        You're wrong about diesel. It is a more efficient design, giving much higher torque per pound of engine weight and often more horsepower. There is an interesting bit about a diesel race car needing to be handicapped to compete fairly with gasoline cars here. [leftlanenews.com]
        • Re:FYI (Score:5, Interesting)

          by BLKMGK (34057) <morejunk4me&hotmail,com> on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @08:17PM (#15966634) Homepage Journal
          Diesel gives more torque partly because as a fuel it contains more BTUs per gallon than gas - it has more energy. Compression ignition is also more effeciently (apparently) which results in better MPG. Part of the reason why that Audi did so well was because it didn't have to refuel nearly as often as it's competitors - I believe it was allowed to run the same size fuel tank as the others. As for weight - diesels generally have heavier engines as they stick to iron and don't use aluminum. The compression loads are a great deal higher and the aluminum apparently cannot handle it.

          Personally I cannot wait for someone to build a diesel hybrid. Now that ought to get some good MPG!
          • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

            by JonathanR (852748)
            The diesel torque advantage (over the otto cycle) is due to the higher brake-mean-effective-pressure of that thermodynamic cycle.

            The volumetric fuel efficiency (mpg) advantage is in part due to the higher LHV (lower heating value) of diesel fuel.

            The energy efficiency advantage is, in part, due to the higher compression ratio typically used and in part due to the lack of induction throttling for power control (less pumping losses). The noise generated by diesels is mostly due to the fast cylinder pres
          • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

            by bibi-pov (819943)

            Personally I cannot wait for someone to build a diesel hybrid. Now that ought to get some good MPG!

            You mean like the buses in New York City for instance, or the Fex-Ex fleet ? And these are just a few example, checkout this page [dieselforum.org]
            As for diesel in a personal car, well, a lot of people work on it, have prototype and even have scheduled to sell them in a couple of years [automotive...review.com]. Just ask google for more...

          • by evilviper (135110)

            Personally I cannot wait for someone to build a diesel hybrid. Now that ought to get some good MPG!

            People keep saying that, but it really doesn't make any sense.

            Hybrids aren't any better than conventional engines at highway speeds. They only improve things because of how terribly ineffecient gasoline ICEs are at city traffic, and when purely idling (engine can shut-off).

            Diesel engines, however, are already geared torwards more torque at lower speed, so they'd get very little benefit during stop and go. An

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Massive146 (633394)
        But weight doesn't matter that much in top speed contests. The top speed is determined almost entirely by the horsepower and aerodynamic drag. It's only a problem if it takes too long to accelerate up to speed. During speed week they have 4 miles to get up to speed. If that is not long enough, I'm sure they can come back later, on their own, and get a longer course set up.
        But I'm not sure what disadvantages a diesel engine would have. Maybe because not as much research has gone into high performance d
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by kfg (145172) *
      No idea why that record held so long for diesel. . .

      It's pretty simple really; lack of interest. It takes someone to put in the time and spend the money and it's not one of your sexier targets.

      For the production outfits like Volkswagon there's also very little promotional value in streamliners and virtually none for custom engined cars. They've got to hop up what they sell to imply that's what you're buying.

      And diesel buyers are economy buyers.

      KFG
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by StikyPad (445176)
      I'm not sure, but I suspect diesel burns slower. Diesels are also more difficult to build because the compression is much higher, and the fuel is injected at the top of the stroke when the air is already compressed. I imagine both of these could cause problems creating high-RPMs, which is how most standard gasoline racing engines generate their enormous torque.

      I'm not an engineer, but that's just my (un)educated guess.
    • Funny though (Score:2, Informative)

      by Fei_Id (937827)
      I believe the fastest gasoline powered vehicle; was a single engined vehicle. This diesel is a twin engine. Aerodynamics play a HUGE HUGE factor in top speeds. It takes an enormous amount of horsepower just to increase the top speed by a small amount. Same reason why bikes suck so bad on the top end. Their power to weight ratios on paper show ridiculously fast acceleration numbers possible at higher speeds. But in reality; they are beaten by lower power/weight cars for higher speed runs; solely becaus
    • Re:FYI (Score:4, Informative)

      by cerebis (560975) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @09:43PM (#15967002)
      No idea why that record held so long for diesel at what seems a low number (236 vs 410)

      By default, really.

      236mph, while indeed fast, isn't extrodinarily fast by today's standards in car performance. It will have simply been a lack of interest. If they break the broader "internal combustion" record of 409.3mph it would be more impressive, but then again that was set in 1965...

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Tim99 (984437)

      It may be because JCB make earth movers and diggers (in the UK, JCB is the generic noun for back-hoe).

      JCB probably got annoyed with the old British joke -
      Q: "What is yellow and does 100 mph across a building site"
      A: "A JCB-GT"

      Sorry - it probably helps to know about the MGB-GT sports car...

      • by hcdejong (561314)
        Actually, JCB have built several diggers with huge supercharged V8s for use at shows. They can achieve about 100 mph, and do wheelies. They carry a 'JCB GT' tag (no doubt in reference to the joke you mentioned, and others).

        The Dieselmax is a showcase for their new engine, which has been developed in-house, quite an achievement for such a relatively small company.
    • by hcdejong (561314)
      Building an engine for the sort of power output, power/weight ratio and power/frontal area ratio you need to achieve 500 km/h is nontrivial.
      The Dieselmax uses two engines with a swept volume of 4.4 litres each, and 5+ bar of compression from the turbochargers, to get 750 bhp/engine.
      The petrol-powered record cars used WW2 vintage aero engines (IIRC Merlins), at 27 litres each and running at maybe 2 bar to get 1500 bhp each. The Merlins were readily available at the time, building a record-breaking car just m
  • ...I guess that they'll have to rip up the New Mexico Salt Flats so noone else can give it a go.
  • by agentcdog (885108) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @07:14PM (#15966335)
    and was surprised to see that this thing really runs on 440 AA batteries. Quite the misleading article. Diesel indeed.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Ford has announced that they will begin testing a prototype computer built entirely by a car. The car used to design the computer is actually a Beowolf cluster of recalled Explorers and Expeditions from the Firestone debacle of some years ago.

    "We think we can use the characteristics of our best-selling cars to build huge, powerful computers with more space than anyone else", said a Ford spokesperson. "Our latest prototype model already has eight CPU cores in a V shape. It can seat seven hard drives (two of
  • RTW...

    /CIS Hat We're coming for you /CIS
  • Neat (Score:3, Funny)

    by MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @07:18PM (#15966357)
    I found a pic of it here [ilexikon.com].
  • Turbo Boost (Score:4, Funny)

    by Megane (129182) on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @07:24PM (#15966381) Homepage

    The combination of the altitude (4,000ft) and the higher air temperatures affected the performance of the second engine, which was generating insufficient turbo boost pressure and led to days of work for the small team of engineering experts.

    Don't they know that K.I.T.T. can only use the Turbo Boost once per episode?

  • Designed? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by quanminoan (812306)
    I RTFA and visited the site but exactly how is this car "designed entirely by computers"? More likely is that the computers optimized each component through simulations based on human input. Can anyone fill us in to how exactly the computers helped design the car?
  • Several sources are reporting that the first entirely computer designed car, the JCB Dieselmax [CC], has broken the diesel speed record [CC] of 236MPH at a speed of 328MPH.

    Consumers, however, rejected the car due to lack of a stereo, air conditioner, and cup holders.
  • we have semis going faster than that on the freeway.
  • by Rank_Tyro (721935) <ranktyro11NO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday August 23, 2006 @08:42PM (#15966738) Journal
    ...."we need ludicrous speed".
  • One of the design factors for the original engine was to function as a backhoe counterweight. This made the engine block and other components so robust that the engine could easily survive the 2-stage turbocharging.

    They used 200 liters of ice for cooling, had diesel particulate filters on the exhaust, and got 4 miles to the gallon. The car had only 2 gallons of fuel to start. They used a tractor with the same engine, untweaked, as a push vehicle.

  • Conversions (Score:2, Informative)

    by cheese-cube (910830)
    For the more metrically inclined among us, 236 M/h equals 379 Km/h (105 m/s) and 328 M/h is 527 Km/h (142 m/s). While the imperial system does have its merits, 527 Km/h looks so much faster than 328 M/h :P
  • Why care? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bjackson1 (953136)
    This is a serious question. Why should I care how fast we can get a diesel engine based car to go? Last time I checked the fastest I drive is around 80mph. I'd be much more interested to see more efficent engines, than more powerful. However, could this technology trickle down to produce more efficent engines? Is there any practical application to this, besides pure speed?
    • Is there any practical application to this, besides pure speed?
      Yes: as you approach the speed of light, time speeds up around you, and when you finish your race it will be the year 3000; no longer will you even need oil from the Middle East. Instead, you'll run your car on whale oil.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by donaldm (919619)
      Surprisingly people do base their car purchase on how fast a car can go and the brand that can do this.

      I just recently brought a VW Passat 2.0 TDi with Direct shift gearbox and there are a few words that describe it. Excellent performance, economical (approx 5.5l/100km (approx 42 US mpg) to 7.0l/100km), comfortable seating (5), large boot, luxury mod cons and cheaper then its petrol equivalent. Granted there are some petrol cars that can beat it off the lights (if you are into this) but it seems strange tha
  • The combination of the altitude (4,000ft) and the higher air temperatures affected the performance of the second engine,


    Altitude? Altitude? Is this the flying car the Jetsons promised us?

    Or, perhaps they mean elevation?

    Damn it, the Jetsons lied to us, and so did this article! ;)
    • by Snorpus (566772)
      And it seems to have surprised them that the elevation was 4000 feet. Didn't they check a map or Topozone before they left Germany?

  • ...but does it have a Flux Capacitor [wikipedia.org]?

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