Zune Won't Play Old DRM Infected Files 463
Spritzer writes "According to the EFF, the new Zune portable media player from Microsoft won't play files infected with the old Microsoft DRM. It seems that all of the 'PlaysforSure' media that has been sold and is currently being sold will not play on the Zune. In addition, Microsoft has now advocated violating the DMCA in order to transfer files to the player. Microsoft Zune architect J Allard was quoted as saying there's 'Lots of DVD ripping software out there that encodes to those formats, so the most popular formats out there, whether it's MPEG-4 or H.264, we'll support those.'" ZDNet offers up additional commentary on this revelation.
PlaysForSure? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's almost as if Microsoft is reading Slashdot. Their new business plan is:
1. Create a format called "PlaysForSure"
2. Make certain that it doesn't "Play for Sure"
3. Cede 95% of the market to Apple
4. ???
5. PROFIT!
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Re:PlaysForSure? (Score:4, Interesting)
AllOfMP3 plays for sure (as long as the site is up).
supernova &&|| all it's vairents tend to play for sure as long as the torrent isn't comprimised.
While the legality of the former is questionable and the latter is, well, known for sure, these are still legitimite competitors to the DRM media.
-nB
To clarify legitimate competitor != legal competitor. The media companies need to understnad that if they break their own rules then they are opening the gates to others ignoring the rules a bit wider every time.
-nB
Re:PlaysForSure? (Score:5, Informative)
Magnatune - which is completely legitimate - plays for sure on any MP3 player too. This is because they sell unencrypted files in most formats (you choose the format when you download).
eMusic is the second largest legitimate download service, only second to iTMS. Some record labels are quite happy with DRM-less downloads.
Re:PlaysForSure? (Score:4, Interesting)
Until then, I'll fulfill my music downloading tastes with unencrypted MP3, AAC and FLAC from Bleep, Tunetribe and 4AD.
Please note: I'm not knocking eMusic or legal downloads in general (indeed, I spend about £20 a month buying tunes online compared to £0 on music two years ago). I just don't trust the way their UK store seems to be working. And yes, I did want a chance to try it out.
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Luckily, if you go to their 404 page [emusic.com], you can start searching their catalog from there. Of course, once you do, you will discover (as you suspected) that their catalog has more holes than a fishing net.
Re:emusic is adware (Score:5, Insightful)
First of all, there is a difference, between spyware [wikipedia.org] and adware [wikipedia.org].
Secondly, I've been using their service for almost a year and have never had adware pushed on me. Frankly, the first site's description [f-secure.com] of the adware looked like shortcuts to sign up for their services. "Desktop and start menu links"? Come on...
I'm not even sure how accurate this information is. It was last updated almost a year ago. I do have an option to uninstall the eMusic download manager. And if you're concerned about your personal information being shared you can opt out [emusic.com]. Most people do not seem to have a problem with is, as eMusic is the second largest legitimate download service [networkitweek.co.uk].
Also, how do they "push" these files to you? Based on the links you provided it sounds more like Winamp [winamp.com] and other free software are bundling these shortcuts to help support their business.
I will say that I hate spyware, adware, and malware as much as the next guy, but it sounds like you're mostly spreading FUD here. I like eMusic and haven't had any problems with adware from them. Do you work for Apple?
Re:PlaysForSure? (Score:4, Funny)
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Consumers should lose a lot of faith in MS' DRM and proprietary formats when Allard says '[...] the most popular formats out there, whether it's MPEG-4 or H.264, we'll support those.'
Re:PlaysForSure? (Score:4, Insightful)
Wha?!?
A blatant demonstration of exactly why DRM is an extaordinarily bad deal for the user, and the answer you reach is, "People will switch to the other mass market DRM"?
Wow. The worst part is, assuming any of the unwashed masses even notice, you're probably right.
You know what they say about assumptions (Score:2, Insightful)
In other words they are drawing conclusions from two missing entries that may turn out to be typos or may be missing for a reason other than compatibility. Just another FUD-laden EFF article.
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Re:You know what they say about assumptions (Score:5, Informative)
Here's the link. [engadget.com]
Here's the relevant section:
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I would give him a dollar of my very own money if he could produce even one customer, let alone a category of them, who have said "That solution where all the music I buy will play on all the devices I own? That doesn't work for me -- do you have something less convenient?"
Re:You know what they say about assumptions (Score:4, Interesting)
I've accidentally tripped on an encrypted message in this statement. I'm posting it here for your own conclusions:
"We were like: we wanna copy iPod, the branding and all, but everyone wants to sue us for abusing monopoly and other such crap. So we're like: we'll make the platform and open it for anyone to license.
So we, like, waited and waited and waited and the competition never managed to outdo iPod since they are too many and they compete among each other instead of complement each other, and iPod is one: it's easy to market, and recognize.
So finally we said: well, screw antitrust cases, screw PlaysForSure: we're ripping iPod."
Re:You know what they say about assumptions (Score:4, Insightful)
I thought it was PaidForSure (Score:5, Funny)
My bad.
Re:PlaysForSure? (Score:5, Funny)
"The Aristocrats!"
PlaysForSure? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Hold up a sec (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Hold up a sec (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah - they should give their hard earned money to the manufacturer before complaining that it's not something they want or would buy.
Re:Hold up a sec (Score:4, Informative)
I'm kind of stunned by this (Score:3, Insightful)
Think of the liability this opens them up to, didn't edonkey get shut down for enabling those evil hackers from trading music and movies?
Hopefully this will point to a market trend, an admission that copyrights are out of control to a large degree. I hate buying music from Itunes because of all the stupid license rules associated with it. It'd be nice to just be allowed to buy some .mp3 files and do with them as I feel. I don't even need a lossless format, my damaged ears can't tell the difference anyway.
Stop buying DRM'ed music if you dislike it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Then don't do it. Even if you dislike doing it, each time you purchase tainted music files you're giving a show of support for DRM. Not only that, but it's financial support you're offering, which is perhaps the worst kind, as it directly allows for their deviant behavior to continue.
We know that DRM-encumbered media has many disadvantages. This Zune nonsense is a perfect example of that. So the best thing to do is to stop buying music from iTunes. Don't start buying music from whatever service Microsoft might offer. Don't buy CDs. Don't download MP3s.
What you should do is get involved with your local music scene. Get to know the bands and artists in your area, or the nearest city. Many times they're far more deserving of your financial support than the multimillionaire fucks in California, and their music is often so much better! Not only that, but you can interact with them personally, and possibly even collaborate with them to some extent (if you're a musician yourself). The best part of it all is that you're getting to listen to some decent music, and you're not supporting corrupt companies and DRM, but rather you're supporting your neighbors.
Go away, you're not 21 (Score:2)
And what do you suggest for people who cannot see local bands because all the venues where local bands routinely play forbid people under the age of 21 from entering the premises?
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They Think They are Above the Law (Score:3, Interesting)
This is exactly what you should expect from M$. Yes, they are going to encourage people to "steal" other people's copyrighted material and break the laws they promoted. From their point of view, this is natural. M$ has been the primary benefactor of software "piracy" all along. They thought that DRM was the same thing, just another "speedbump" to keep "honest users" paying. Wink wink, "st
End to End Solution (Score:5, Interesting)
RealNetworks and Sandisk have already stated their intent to do something similar, which reeks like all the PlaysForSure partners aren't too impressed with this move by Microsoft.
How cute! (Score:2, Interesting)
____________________
Free iPods? Its legit [wired.com]. 5 of my friends got theirs. Get yours here! [freepay.com]
It's a trap! (Score:5, Interesting)
Just think about it.. just how dumb do you think MS are?
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Re:It's a trap! (Score:4, Insightful)
My question about this is why, exactly, is microsoft even wasting their time on this? Who cares if apple sells a lot of ipods? It doesn't hurt Microsoft's bottom line. Most ipod users run windows on the desktop.
DRM is not infection (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a lock. A digital lock. Call it Digital Restrictions Management if you must (since it stills describe what it does), but not infection.
The general public already has their hands full trying to understand all this technological mumbo-jumbo. Let's not spread more FUD.
Re:DRM is not infection (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:DRM is not infection (Score:4, Informative)
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/15/1
Re:DRM is not infection (Score:5, Informative)
You mean it adds DRM to files I already have? Files not bought through their online store?!
Based on what I've heard, it's not true that it adds DRM to all files on it. The issue is that it wraps DRM onto files that you wirelessly share with your Zune friends - whether you want it to or not, whether it's permitted to (Creative Commons licencing) or not.
An article about it at http://www.medialoper.com/hot-topics/music/zunes-b ig-innovation-viral-drm [medialoper.com]
Re:DRM is not infection (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, so we have systems that work. They do what the user wants. Its a pretty healthy system overall.
DRM comes in pretending to be something that the user wants. It is a trojan horse, a virus. It is brought in, under the disguise of something that helps the system. Then, when it strikes, like this, it does nothing but hurt the system. It doesn't help the user, it hurts the user.
Like a virus, it turns the users own system against the user. It makes the system do what DRM owners (the viruses source) want. It is an infection that only works because it is becoming ubiquitous.
DRM is the classic slippery slope. If we accept the infection, if we don't fight it tooth and nail, then down the road when it really is in everthing, we will have turned over all control to the big boys who control the DRM.
It is a viral infection of the worst sort. It deserves to be described as such. This IS the battle for hearts and minds, and the enemy is not at all shy about casting precious freedom in their own jaundiced light. I say its time to call a spade a spade. This is infection.
This is the first symptom of the infection. Definitly past time to start treating this disease.
-Steve
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First of all I really don't see any marketing about "DRM: you want it" (or anything along those lines).
Second, we have systems that work too well. Any moron can buy something, rip it, then give it to everyone else. You might be against DRM (that's your right) but you also have to acknowledge the fact that not everyone respects the rights of othe
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Personally, I am very grateful to Microsoft for this. Until now, there were very few good, clear, instances of DRM harming the consumer. This is almost the exact case-study I would have asked for when talking to politicians. I almost wonder if it's intentional...
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Re:DRM is not infection (Score:4, Informative)
Normally I'd agree, as long as the files are and always have been restricted. Applying DRM to files that is not restricted, is viral. In fact, it's more "viral" than the GPL ever was, it's infectious by mere aggregation. The closest similarity are to the viruses that lock down your files, holding them hostage against the owner. I am the owner of those files (as far as Zune knows anyway), and Zune has no business applying their locks against me.
DRM is not infection. It's much worse than that. (Score:2)
When said software executes (which you can't prevent if you're running Windows), it does actually infect your media files. It prevents you from reading files you created with any other software. And that is an infection.
But the objection to DRM is much, much worse than merely wanting to play music in your car.
The whole RIAA/DMCA cra
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Standard formats vs blackbox drm (Score:2, Redundant)
And with opaque encrypted formats all are just as temporary as the intented player.
PlaysForSure obsolete? (Score:3, Insightful)
This suggests to me that there haven't been many PlaysForSure track purchases. I suspect most people who play DRM'd WMA files subscribe to unlimited services like Yahoo Unlimited. I am such a person, and I have yet to purchase a "burnable" track.
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Ouch (Score:5, Funny)
The worst part is that their formats (WMA/WMV) have become the formats of choice for a large number of devices and services. And now those services are feeling what it's like to be a Microsoft customer. Ouch. Sorry guys, we should've told you to lube up first.
no contradiction (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft like DRM and the DMCA because it gives them the ability to implement differential pricing, erect bariers to entry, and have stronger negotiating positions; and they like DRM-breaking software because it makes their devices more useful. There is no contradiction in their behavior.
Of course, there is a contradiction tp their stated justifications for DRM, and it is important to bring this up prominently whenever Congress reconsiders DRM-related legislation.
Buy hardware and music without DRM. (Score:4, Insightful)
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They're being phased out, and the next generation of content containing media will ALL have DRM deeply embedded into them. So the only choice, if you don't want DRM, is to abstain from buying ANYTHING at all.
How many do you think will do that?
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didn't have instore notices telling you what format the various players would play, let alone something telling their customers what DRM was.
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I think you might be in with a chance if it made it as far as a Court of Law. I doubt you'd be able to find a jury of twelve people who understood what "digital restrictions management" is. At least Beta and VHS cassettes were visually distinguible. The e
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Of course, a recent study suggested only 10-15% of iPods are populated with iTunes downloads. So the integrated solution is not an absolute necessity to being successful in this space. I think ipods are more successful due to a) well engineered, b) highly usable, and
Micro$oft said it was Ok. (Score:3)
I knew it was only a matter of time before this type stuff started happening to DRM. With the DCMA backing up DRM and the vendor lockin to players, it will not be long before congress steps in and makes some changes. Just wait until one of there kids has an issue with it.
LOL, the RIAA will finally have somebody to sue! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:LOL, the RIAA will finally have somebody to sue (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:LOL, the RIAA will finally have somebody to sue (Score:2)
Anyone not see this coming? (Score:5, Insightful)
Legal format conversions? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Nope. Changing DRM means you have to remove the old DRM and then add the new DRM. By the time you add the new DRM, you have already violated the law. It's not like adding the DRM somehow retroactively makes the earlier violation become not a violation.
Sure, it's ridiculous. But it's also ridiculous that playing a DVD without permission from the copyright holder is a violation. Yet it is. What can I say? It's a ridiculous law that no honest
Makes Sense (Score:4, Interesting)
While the decision will surely harm MS in the short term, and completely alienate all the other PlaysForSure software and hardware licensees (probably killing the format), it would definitely improve MS's long-term prospects, assuming it isn't pulled off the market after a year of dismal sales. If history is any indication, MS will stick with it, keep improving their offerings, and eventually have something that appeals to the lowest common denominator on the market.
You must be reading different history books. (Score:3, Interesting)
If history is any indication, MS will abandon it for something else when they think it convenient, just like they're doing with Plays For Sure.
Phisical Media the way to go (Score:2, Insightful)
PlayForSure is correctly named. (Score:5, Funny)
Hate to defend M$, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
I hope that I'm wrong about this, as it would be too funny if the Zune couldn't play DRMed music.
Re:Hate to defend M$, but... (Score:5, Informative)
This is related to the Zune's ability to share files with other Zune players.
More info here, all throughout the comments: http://www.zuneinsider.com/2006/09/answers_to_some .html [zuneinsider.com]
"There currently isn't a way to sniff out what you are sending, so we wrap it all up in DRM. We can't tell if you are sending a song from a known band or your own home recording so we default to the safety of encoding."
Free download of same title, different format? (Score:2)
Why can't the Zune store recognize that that you own a PlaysForSure-protected version of a music title, and allow you to download the same title in Zune-protected format at no charge?
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Probably because of the "copy" in "copyright". Every new copy they allow you to download is presumably another copy they have to pay for to the RIAA, regardless of whether you owned it or not (unless the RIAA made an exception for the above situation and refused money in that case... yeah right).
An article about preventing piracy today? (Score:3, Funny)
Microsoft, you scurvy dogs!
J Allard Interview - Link (Score:4, Informative)
A Lots of DVD ripping software out there that encodes to those formats, so the most popular formats out there, whether it's MPEG-4 or H.264, we'll support those.
Q When PlaysForSure was introduced, the premise was, we make it simple so that you don't have to worry about whether your player works with the music you're purchasing...
A. We've also found that there's a category of customers that say, "Give me a brand experience, advertise it to me on television; I want to be part of the digital music revolution, and that solution [PlaysForSure] doesn't work for me." So they're two complementary solutions -- not everyones gonna want Zune and not everyone's gonna want PlaysForSure. They're different paths there, and we're okay with both of them.
Extracts from The Engadget Interview: J Allard, Microsoft Corporate Vice President [engadget.com]
arrr (Score:4, Funny)
Because tis' Talk Like a Pirate Day. Gar, Where can I find a bottle o'rum?
The New IPod Killer (Score:5, Funny)
Need a new slogan... (Score:5, Funny)
"Plays for now."
"Plays for as long as we feel like it."
"Sure it plays. Trust us."
Much ado about nothing? (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm hardly what you'd call a Microsoft fan-boy (I'm not even a Microsoft user), but I'm not seeing where it says that it can't play this stuff. I haven't seen any confirmation from the horse's mouth. I mean, this is all coming from a footnote in a PR document which says:
It doesn't say that other applications can't put protected music onto the device, nor does it say that it can't play that stuff. It just says that the built-in software can't do it. Which makes sense, really, because it would imply that Microsoft is ready, willing and able to break the protection applied by a partnering online music store. That's pretty nasty, even for a "stab your partner" company like them.Of course, that won't make it much of an iTunes killer. "Oh, you want to import music from some other store. Okay.... open their player app, and see if they'll let you export each individual piece of media to the Zune. Including the stuff you ripped from CD and it helpfully 'protected' for you. Then, if you're lucky and they haven't changed the terms and conditions or you've moved computers or devices or something..."
A real lack of confidence for consumers... (Score:4, Interesting)
Even for someone who's tech savvy, the uncertainty is disconcerting...
Re:DRM (Score:5, Interesting)
This was bound to happen. Let's see if anything good comes of it.
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I don't think MS is advocating Breaking The Law. I think their spokesman is a Judas Priest fan.
Re:DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:DRM (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:DRM (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not sure he's advocating breaking any law, including the DMCA. He just maybe has a little different interpretation of the law than some. But neither his interpretation, nor the interpretation of those on the other side of the fence has actually been tested in court to my knowledge.
The DMCA makes a specific exception to itself for fair use provisions. In essence, it says that if you previously had a right to do something under existing copyright law, you still have a right to do that thing. What the DMCA does is ensure that DRM is protected against those trying to break existing copyright law. It says "if you break DRM for the purposes of infringing copyright, then you are breaking the law." (The fair use exception comes after the actual restrictions, but you have to read everything together to know what the law itself actually is. I'm convinced some people just stop reading once they've read the restrictions.) But since fair use is codified into copyright law, you're not breaking the law by breaking DRM. At least, that would have to be J. Allard's interpretation of the DMCA.
The ZDNet article says the DMCA makes certain exceptions, "none of which apply here." That's not necessarily true. The author is apparently assuming that breaking DRM to move your DVD's from disc to Zune or your PlaysForSure files from one device to another would not be covered under fair use provisions of copyright law. He may or may not be right, but the Supreme Court has in the past used format-shifting as an example of fair use, going all the way back to the Betamax decision. (The examples listed as fair use in the law itself are just that, examples. They do not encompass all potential fair uses.)
The DMCA is no doubt a draconian law. But a) it has not really been fully tested in court yet, mainly because the individual users it most directly affects don't have the money to pursue a lengthy court case, and b) it is open to as much interpretation as the fair use provision in existing copyright law.
The long and the short of it is I think this whole Zune thing is a big fiasco for Microsoft, but I don't necessarily agree that J. Allard is telling people to break the law.
do you live under a rock? (Score:5, Insightful)
If it is indeed allowed to do this, then where is the LEGAL software to do things that are "fair use" with DRM'd data? It doesn't exist.
Re:do you live under a rock? (Score:5, Insightful)
By this same reasoning, there is nothing illegal about circumventing CSS to rip a DVD you own to your iPod. However, you are expected to write your own tool to do so; nobody else is allowed to distribute it to you.
Yes, it's silly. But assuming you manage to get a program such as decss in your possession (which somebody will have to break the law to make happen), you can rip DVD's you own all day long without breaking the law.
As a disclaimer, IANAL. But, unlike a majority of the people I hear talking about the DMCA, I have actually at least read the law.
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DRM prevents an unlicensed user from accessing the legitimate content which I have.
Yes, DRM is access control.
It also prevents me from copying the content to a different media and/or format, which is fair use.
No. Bits are bits. You can copy them to another player/medium, but other devices won't be able to decrypt them to play them.
Access control, not copy prevention. Nothing stops you from copying DRM'd music, you just can't access it if you move it elsewhere.
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You're mistaken. CSS and other DRM schemes are [copyright.gov] considered access controls under the DMCA. The "authorized" way to gain access to a CSS-protected work is to play it in a licensed DVD player which can enforce things like Macrovision, region coding, and P-UOPs as required by the CSS license. If you cir
Re:DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh I'm not, eh? Tell me then, what gives content providers the "right" to use DRM?
It sure as Hell isn't copyright law, because that exists in order to enlarge the Public Domain, for the benefit of the public!
There's a common misconception that information "belongs" to whoever thinks it up. The fact is, though, that it doesn't. It never has. Copyright law in the United States -- until recently -- reflected this, from the Constitution on down. It's only been after extensive lobbying by the RIAA etc. over the past few decades that opinion has changed. I can only hope it changes back before we all forget that we're the ones with an inherent right to our culture and become "information serfs!"
Re:DRM (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with and support the original idea codified in the Constitution; that we should give authors a limited period were they can exclusively benefit from their work because I believe it does encourage them to produce more. I also try to pay for free software as often as possible because I appreciate the author's hard work and want to encourage them to continue. I'm not asking to get free stuff. All I'm demanding is to retain my rights as a human being and United States citizen.
Re:DRM (Score:5, Interesting)
-Kurt
Re:DRM (Score:4, Insightful)
You missed the point. Apparently, in some jurisdictions, media companies are entitled to a chunk of my money, when I buy CDRs to back-up my data. In other words, anything that you can bribe/bully your legislators into, becomes an entitilement. If we can get the laws changed, to outlaw DRM, then we will be 'entitled' to DRM-free content.
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Then again its not even their product, i think this is just another device that they are going to pump and dump via a stavation diet, like webtv, ultimatetv, tabletpc, media center, etc. This zune must fill some wallstreet hunger for them to do something. Obvious that toshiba (or who ever actually invented the device) had it anyways.
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I'd rather speak for myself, even if it means getting modded down by people with nothing better to do.