Moglen on Social Justice and OSS

NewsCloud writes "What does Firefox have to do with social justice? How will the one laptop per child project discourage genocide? How soon will Microsoft collapse? Watch Eben Moglen's inspiring keynote from the 2006 Plone Conference (Archive.org: mp3 or qt; or YouTube). The video presentation is ordinary, so the mp3 is an equally good format. 'If we know that what we are trying to accomplish is the spread of justice and social equality through the universalization of access to knowledge; If we know that what we are trying to do is build an economy of sharing which will rival the economies of ownership at every point where they directly compete; If we know that we are doing this as an alternative to coercive redistribution, that we have a third way in our hands for dealing with long and deep problems of human injustice; If we are conscious of what we have and know what we are trying to accomplish, when this is the moment for the first time in lifetimes, we can get it done.'"

Great presentation

Especially when he points out that the best efforts of Microsoft can't produce browsers as good as the Free Software community.

Re:Except for the 'Social Justice' theme...

Every time he said 'Social Justice' he fed the perception that Free Software is a communist plot.

Only among those who are already predisposed to do so. Social justice != communism. Moglen can't prevent you from bringing your biases to the table, but he can hope that you will judge his presentation on its merits, and not on the values you attach to words he is using.

yp.

Why I have an allergic reaction to 'social justice

We've hit a really low point as a society, when "Social Justice" are dirty words. How long will those of you who believe that absolutely unfettered economic darwinism ("Free Market") think you can throw out a word like "socialism" and think that Americans are going to drool on command?

I'm always mystified by the people who, thinking that 'economic darwinism' is a Bad Thing, advocate 'economic creationism' in its stead. The reason why phrases like 'Social Justice' cause me to react is that they're used by the Clever Kids to try to redefine, and thus win, arguments.

The term seems to suggest that if A has sufficiently greater wealth than B, the situation is 'socially unjust', without considering the actions that led to the situation. If the disparity of wealth is due to A having worked harder to produce his wealth, it would be the antithesis of justice to 'correct' the imbalance by coercive force.

How long will we have to watch cultures diminish as a powerful few use "capitalism" to enrich themselves while constantly greater numbers of our fellow humans fall into poverty.

It's good that you use scare quotes there, because politically-connected people using their connections to gain advantage in the market is not what I call "capitalism"; it's more like "mercantilism". But consider this: The nations with the poorest citizens are precisely those where coercive force dominates economic transactions; those where the lowest economic classes do the best are where force (and the threat thereof) is kept to a minimum.

We did an experiment last century, where we divided a country between capitalism and socialism. In order to maintain the experiment, the subjects in the socialist part of the experiment had to be confined by a wall, manned by guards with orders to kill anyone who tried to get out. But, hey, as long as all the inmates are equally poor, it's 'Social Justice', right?

Here in the Great U.S. and A. we're seeing a level (by percentage, yes) of poverty that would have made the victims of the Great Depression nod in recognition.

The 'poor' under the definition of 'poverty' in the US of A would be considered wealthy in any country on the planet a century ago. By embracing 'social justice', you can feel smug about spreading misery equally.

I am a proponent of Free Software precisely because it's about freedom. The pursuit of 'social justice' by coercive force is incompatible with freedom.

BTW, wasn't Moglen wearing a NICE suit? I don't suppose Starvin' Marvin can afford a fancy lawyer suit like that.

Re:It's gotten so bad...

We've hit a really low point as a society, when "Social Justice" are dirty words. How long will those of you who believe that absolutely unfettered economic darwinism ("Free Market") think you can throw out a word like "socialism" and think that Americans are going to drool on command? How long will we have to watch cultures diminish as a powerful few use "capitalism" to enrich themselves while constantly greater numbers of our fellow humans fall into poverty.

I agree. And I believe we have also hit a low point as a society when "free market" is also a dirty word. Free market has never meant a lawless market, but people like you still describe it as if it is a den of thieves. The free market is a place were people can come to exchange goods and services without the threat of coercion by force, it is a place were government will enforce equitable contracts made willingly and in good faith with the use of force. Ideally, it is also a place were the exchange of goods and services take place without regard to biases individuals might have against other individuals or perceived groups. Historically, free markets have been places were individuals have been able to come in order to better themselves through hard work and reputations for honesty. A free market is not incompatible with a concept social justice. The "free" in free market is free as in freedom.

The next time someone tells you that the top 5 percent of Americans are paying 50 percent of the taxes, remember, it's because they're making 90 percent of the money.

The rich pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than do any other so called group. What you just said is a lie, pure and simple. A lie meant to divide people. A lie meant to assuage the guilt of the poor for taking more than they are worth from others. A lie meant to enslave the middle class. A lie that is so obviously false that you should be ashamed of yourself for spreading it.

Oh you meant to say wealth, sure you did. But wealth is not income, wealth is a made up number. Wealth is me looking at your house and saying that I bet someone would pay a lot for it. Wealth is not income, wealth does not always generate income. But when wealth does generate income it is already taxed at very high rates. So, you say that 40% is too little, that taking nearly half of people's income is too little? How much is too much?

I have been keenly aware of the false numbers that you and your kind have been spreading on the Internet. People are overtaxed and overworked and you would justify their continued oppression by spreading false rumors and lies. The rich and the middle class pay more than their fair share while the poor pay nothing or very little.

Yes, there is an inequity in this country and it is this: That the political class would prey upon the weak to better themselves. That the political class would scare people into giving them more power and control over other people's lives. That the political class would conspire between the two parties and act as one single unified political machine seeking to enrich their co-conspirators at the expense of the poor, rich and middle classes alike.

Re:Except for the 'Social Justice' theme...

"Every time he said 'Social Justice' he fed the perception that Free Software is a communist plot."

That is only because some people are easily fed "trigger" words or phrases and easily trained to react a certain way whenever they are used. Reasonable people understand that social justice does not equal Communism. During the Cold War and even today these easily trained people are more than willing to turn on their friends, neighbors, and even family because of this fallacious sense of pseudo patriotism.

Economy of sharing to compete?

With what? The traditional economy goes something like: I have something, which you want, and you have something which I want. We trade. This non-concept of "economy of sharing" goes like: I have something, which you want, and I am morally obligated to give it to you, by virtue of the fact that I have it. Where is it in my interest to do so, if I do not accept your premise that I am somehow inherently obligated to?

The "one laptop per child" mentality is great at giving people the information that they need in order to succeed, but it will not make them succeed. It will ensure that everyone starts the race at the same point, but it will not make everyone a winner.

Re:Economy of sharing-an example

This is how I finally bingoed to what FLOSS was all about. I had read the words but still didn't get it, I mean I was already using Linux and still didn't get it. But I thought of an analogy. FLOSS is like the olden days community barn raisings. Individually, it was pretty expensive and very difficult for one guy to build his own barn, collectively, members of the community go over on the weekend and help each other out, each contributing the tools and expertise they were the best at, eventually they all have very nice barns, then they can all go about the business of being farmers, were they made their livings at.

Re:Economy of sharing-an example

Humans have spent millions of years sharing, and just a few thousand owning. Sharing is what got us, as a species, so rich that we could afford to lock up resources, whether it cost anyone anything for others to use them or not.

Owning can speed up the pace of innovation by several orders of magnitude, but it can also slow it down. You don't need DMCA, DRM, and other insane intellectual property rights to do that. The medieval guilds in Europe, for instance, also slowed down the pace of innovation by a couple of centuries, and they did it using trade secrecy rules that worked just as well (or badly, depending on your point of view).

But the important thing is that sharing and owning are NOT mutually exclusive. Buddha had it right: it's the balance that's important. Microsoft shouldn't be allowed to own the ones and the zeroes, but sharing everything absolutely equally doesn't work well outside of a monastery either. The balance point, for me, is where you have the most innovation that benefits the most people and allows compensation to flow to the creators, not everybody except the creators.

One thing that's always brought up about "sharing economies" is the tragedy of the commons. That's where resources held in common and owned by nobody get trashed because nobody takes care of them. Our current environmental problems fall into this category. But the thing to remember there is that sharing only becomes a tragedy when it's a free-for-all. In that case, sure, it's a rip-off for whoever is the biggest thug. We don't have to let that happen. If the commons is adequately regulated, it can be used by everyone AND retain all its value, like a well-run city park.

Moglen has articulated the value in the new / old way of sharing, and brought so many separate things into one vision, it's like looking into a prism and seeing glorious rainbows. Love it.

Re:Economy of sharing-an example

FLOSS is like the olden days community barn raisings.

I think that this analogy still misses it. With a barn raising by twenty people, at the end, just one family has the barn. No one else uses that barn.

The problem with all these analogies is that software is not analogous to physical things. Software is more analogous to the design of the barn. If I decide that it would make more sense to have a barn with two doors rather than one door, it doesn't hurt me in any way for every other barn to have two doors.

Open source relies on the following:

1. Software is near free to duplicate but comparatively expensive to design.

2. Software is individual. My current needs are different than your current needs. Thus, even with the same base, both of us need to do additional work.

3. Needs change. Thus, the needs that I have tomorrow may match the needs that you have today. Therefore, giving you my work today may save me work tomorrow.

4. Bugs happen. If you find a bug and fix it for me, that saves me work. This is especially true of security bugs.

Where open source falls down (relative to closed source) is that it lacks a good way for non-programmers to pool resources in large groups. Look at MS Windows XP (WinXP) for example. WinXP apparently costs about $25 per user to develop (using an average cost of $50 per user and a profit margin of 50%). Assuming 400,000,000 users, that's $10 billion to develop WinXP (given Win2000 and Win98SE). Using a cost per developer of $200,000 per year, that's 50,000 developer years.

Open source does well in areas where the software is used by technical people. For example, traditionally (albeit increasingly less so), web servers have been operated by professionals. As a result, it has made sense for those professionals to use a web server that they could modify (Apache). Office suites have traditionally been used by non-technical people. As such, most office suites do not allow modification, only extension (through macros and more modernly, VBScript).

Barn raisings worked because in small communities, it's possible to get everyone to work together (people who don't go to raise your barn don't get your help with their barn). However, that's a bad model for trying to convince a business. It lacks guarantees (me doing work for you today does not bind you to do work for me tomorrow). To convince a profit minded boss, you have to demonstrate that open source reduces costs.

Re:Economy of sharing to compete?

You miss the point. It's about marginal costs and the commons.

The 'economy of ownership' is the one where people say 'This stuff is mine! Give me money or you can't use it, even if it costs me nothing for you to have it.

The 'economy of sharing' is where people say 'This stuff can't, or shouldn't be owned at all. If anyone wants to use it, they can and if anyone wants to help improve it, bonus!'

The commons notoriously has problems with things like overgrazing and overfishing, and the notion of sharing what you produce has problems if it costs you something to share. With digital goods shared on the internet, neither of those are a problem. Software doesn't wear out, and it doesn't cost me anything if two people share my work over a website or p2p network. The fixed costs associated with creating free software in the first place do have to be covered, but that hasn't been a problem so far.

The internet works with a different set of economic rules from the traditional economy. Stuff like Linux and Apache are economic equivalent of bumblebees. They shouldn't work under the old rules, yet they do.

And because of that, the ethical rules should change too, but they haven't, yet. In a world where Ubuntu and OpenBSD can be made without having policemen to stop them being copied, why should we employ policemen and jails to prevent Windows or OSX being copied? Jailing people is violent and evil, m'kay, and should only ever be used as a last resort. The primary justification for employing copyright protections in the first place was just to produce copyrighted works - if the works are now getting made without those protections, then there's no excuse for attacking and threatening people just to make an equivalent work that might compete with it...

Umm, I think that's Moglen's point, more or less. I'm still waiting for the *cough*quicktime*cough* movie to download...

Re:Economy of sharing to compete?

Yes... where is the economy in giving birth to children? Where is the economy in giving a present to loved ones? Where is the economy in giving education to minors? Where is the economy in giving directions to a stranger in your town? Where is the economy in giving playing cards to someone who is sitting with you at a table? Where is the economy in giving advise or stating opinions on Slashdot?

As you can see: We are giving for completely uneconomic reasons all the time. Does that make us bad people?

Re:Economy of sharing to compete?

Yes... where is the economy in giving birth to children? Where is the economy in giving a present to loved ones? Where is the economy in giving education to minors? Where is the economy in giving directions to a stranger in your town? Where is the economy in giving playing cards to someone who is sitting with you at a table? Where is the economy in giving advise or stating opinions on Slashdot?

Yes, but you see, the ability to do this, i.e. to practice charity, which is the moral way of life, is in many ways dependent upon having the resources to give, which in turn is dependant upon a healthy free market economy. Obviously, you can be just as moral without any resources, but there is dramatically more that you can do for others if you do have resources. I think that Open Source is largely a result of this spirit. However, it is a result, not a cause, and I think it has exactly NOTHING to do with most the ideals mentioned, such as Justice. Justice has more to do with the free market. Charity is about rising above justice.

Re:Economy of sharing to compete?

"Yes, but you see, the ability to [practice charity]... is dependant upon a healthy free market economy"

If that were true, then how come the world's major religions ( Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, and Judaism ) asked people to practice charity hundreds or thousands of years before the development of modern free markets?

Re:Economy of sharing to compete?

This non-concept of "economy of sharing" goes like: I have something, which you want, and I am morally obligated to give it to you, by virtue of the fact that I have it.

You're wrong. You are describing a communist system, where wealth is distributed evenly, rather than according to how much each person is worth.

That's not open-source. To me, there is a huge difference with open-source: It is specifically about acknowledging how much something is worth, giving credit where it's due, and respecting the wishes of the authors. Thus, if you build something on top of what I have built, and I have shared it, all I ask is that you share it too. There is nothing in open-source that says that if you build something from scratch, you absolutely must open-source it. Only if you use parts of what other people did. Frankly, I think that's a reasonable request.

What it means is that it's more efficient than traditional innovation, because it means not having to re-invent the wheel. All we ask is that you open your code, too. You're perfectly free to not use what someone else did, but it would be re-doing a lot of work, so I don't recommend it.

Where is it in my interest to do so, if I do not accept your premise that I am somehow inherently obligated to?

You're only obligated if you are using something someone else did. Again, how is this not reasonable? If you're going to go and sell some code you wrote, but it includes a bunch of code I wrote, and I stated originally that I'd prefer you to share your code if you use it, then you're not inherently obliged to, you're obliged to according to the license agreement that you chose to comply with.

The "one laptop per child" mentality is great at giving people the information that they need in order to succeed, but it will not make them succeed. It will ensure that everyone starts the race at the same point, but it will not make everyone a winner.

Absolutely. However, the hope is that it will, in total, create more winners. Or at least even out the distribution of winners over the globe. Right now there is a serious imbalance in the world that is making it a very unhealthy place to live. We can't just keep giving money to developing countries, hoping that they'll invest it properly and fix all their economic problems. Instead, this is an attempt to help them help themselves, a much better approach IMHO.
Anyways, notice that the OLPC project isn't exactly a charity. It is an effort to create a machine that is useful, but made in such a way that the target demographic can actually afford it. This is perfectly moral from a capitalist perspective. (Yes it is a non-profit organization, but as far as I'm concerned that doesn't change anything. They are still selling the machines, not giving them away.)

Boglin

Notably more well-recieved that Eben Boglin's [wikipedia.org] address, which was admittedly just a lot of arm-waving and scare tactics.

Interesting, but a little too high brow for me

OK, this guy has some great points, but he's just too educated and high brow for a Sunday morning. He could have covered his points in 1/4 of the time and made them more accessible to the general public (in the audio that is). But then again, since when do lecturing lawyers try to be accessible and understandable?

The blogger's summary said the speech evoked "memories for me of Martin Luther King's speeches". Ummm ... ok. I think that's going a bit too far. Will anyone remember Eben Moglen's Plone conference keynote 5 years from now? I can't even say that sentence without laughing a little.

Video Format

I suppose there's a certain irony to the fact that the talk is available only in proprietary formats from those links.

Transcription

If you want a non-proprietary format, I have transcribed [geof.net] Moglen's speech.

Widespread internet access could cause genocide

I know I've wanted to kill a few people after looking at their MySpace pages.

Well, there's your problem:

Stop looking at people's MySpace pages!

Delusional

Microsoft are going to collapse in the next couple of years and this somehow will prove the validity of the sharing model? I dont think so, MS will be around for a long time yet. If Microsoft survive and so well for a couple of years will Moglens theory of sharing then be proved false?

re: Salvation through education

The laptop was developed under the motto:

"Because information can save the world"

I think that in America, there is a long history of beliving that education is our salvation. This was a very popular belief in the mid-1800s, and has continued on to this day. For instance, no matter how bad our schools do, we believe that giving them more money will fix the problem and save us.

See this quote by Horace Mann:

"the common school is the greatest discovery ever made by man: we repeat it, the common school is the greatest discovery ever made by man.. .Let the common school be expanded to its capabilities, let it be worked with the efficiency of which it is susceptible, and nine-tenths of the crimes in the penal code would become obsolete; the long catalogue of human ills would be abridged; men would walk more safely by day; every pillow would be more inviolable by night; property, life, and character held by a stronger tenure; all rational hopes respecting the future brightened." (Clarence Carson, A Basic History of the United States, vol. 3, p. 91).

I think the Laptop program is just an extension of trying to "evangelize" our philosophy on the rest of the world.

That said, however, I think the more people who can get around the controlled press with these devices, and blog and create their own content, the better off the world is. It's salvation...no.

Genocide?

You know what stops genocide? Functioning governments with the ability to combat rogue elements within the country, or the diplomatic relations required to get help. Functioning militaries, headed by civilians and not career officers. Strict regulation of trade along with neoliberal economic policies to help ease countries out of depressive states. Ground-up education as both an educational and social tool to create civic awareness and consciousness.

A bunch of laptops to some starving, poor, thirsty people who live in terror of their government or paramilitary groups the government can't control are going to do a whole freaking lot.

Please.

Social Justice?

I just wonder what will a person that lives paycheck to paycheck have to say about social justice when asked by an OSS developer that has several computers at home and perhaps can afford that nice new $550 video card.
I wonder.

Eben Moglen as a lawyer

First time I saw Eben Moglen in from-the-hawai shirt, I had no impression about he's a lawyer and also who's the one behind FSF's legal moves. Later on he started to talk about GPLv3 in a way that he's fighting with audience, then I had my first impression of his lawly background. And now with a suit. Luckily with pink shirt.

in much simpler to understand terms...

first understand that we are all consumers and producers.
With that in mind:

"Consumer choice rules"

And when the choice is not acceptable to the consumer, they put on their producer hat and make it for themselves and to share.

That's OSS!!

The essence why Richard Stallman wrote the GPL in the first place.
He was unhappy what rights his employer, at the time, was claiming of his work.

More from Moglen

Moglen also spoke recently at the Sakai conference in Atlanta. He is representing the Sakai Foundation in their fight against Blackboard's software patent.

He gave a keynote Wednesday morning and then appeared during lunch for a debate of sorts with Matthew Small, VP and General Counsel for Blackboard, Inc. It's quite entertaining, IMHO, especially if you have strong feelings about software patents.

You can listen to the podcasts here (look at the Wednesday schedule, day 2 for download links):
Conference Schedule [sakaiproject.org]

(Sakai [sakaiproject.org] is an initiative supported by several higher educational institutions to build an Open Source learning management system.)

More Columbia Rubbish

That was just a Marxist software speech - nothing new in it. It's the same psedo virtuous template that gets applied to other things. "this is a moving speech because Moglen is not talking about software licensing as much as a multi-generational movement for social justice that many of my closest friends care deeply about despite their having very little knowledge of technology. As the lecture unfolds, Moglen's commentary invoked memories for me of Martin Luther King's speeches." Wha....? So people with "little knowledge" of technology now "care deeply" about the social justice of software liscensing? The reason they care is because they are shallow and suggestible. A lot fo people have no real virtue these days so they are easy prey for rhetoric that sounds "sorta" noble but has no root in reality. A lot of these "ivory tower" sorts who buy into this rubbish are already guilt ridden and prone to self loathing. "If we know that what we are trying to do is build an economy of sharing which will rival the economies of ownership at every point where they directly compete; If we know that we are doing this as an alternative to coercive redistribution, that we have a third way in our hands for dealing with long and deep problems of human injustice" Human injustice is due to character flaws and spiritual emptiness(ego pride selfishness etc) and Marxism always wants to hide that fact behind superficial economics. It's like saying "People aren't bad it's their choices that are bad so we will just have to make sure there are no options". These sorts are guilty of what they accuse others (capitalists) of being. Marx did once say "accuse others of what you do".

Social Justice?

I have issues with the concept of "Social Justice" (in this country, the USA). I can understand helping people in poverty. Having the government give them the training and tools to get out of poverty is something anyone can understand.

That is not what I see when people speak of "Social Justice". I see them attempting to have an even distribution of wealth, by using the government as the enforcer of what is socially just.

It does not seem fair. Those who sacrifice, save and work hard should be rewarded. Those who do not, should not.

On a global scale, often, when I see the struggling indigenous people of wherever, they have placed restraints on their economy or their economy is a structured (ie planned) economy that has inefficiencies in it. These types of economies look like the economies proposed by those seeking "Social Justice".

This is just a Sunday morning rant. As always, I could be wrong :)

This is not what Moglen's talking about

This (from my transcription [geof.net]) is what he means by social justice:

There is no moral justification for charging more for bread that costs nothing than the starving can pay.

His vision has no government or other enforcer. It is realized due to a restructuring of economic production around products based on software which is free. Here is how he describes past efforts to achieve social justice:

the greatest problem of human inequality is the extraordinary difficulty in prising wealth away from the rich to give it to the poor, without employing levels of coercion or violence which are themselves utterly corrosive to social progress. . . . We cannot make meaningful redistribution fast enough to maintain momentum politically without applying levels of coercion or violence which will destroy what we are attempting.

An information economy based on free software, however, can be different:

We find ourselves now in a very different place. . . . It's a place where the primary infrastructure is produced by sharing. The primary technology of production is unowned. . . . We have begun proving the fabric of a twenty-first century society which is egalitarian in its nature, and which is structured to produce for the common benefit more effectively than it can produced for private exclusive proprietary benefit. . . . a world in which the resources of the wealthy came to us, not because we coerced them, not because we demanded, not because we taxed, but because we shared. Even with them, sharing worked better than suing or coercing.

Not even a token gesture toward software freedom?

How ironic that the /. headline mentions "OSS" (open source software) yet Prof. Moglen is General Counsel for the Free Software Foundation; an organization that not only predates the Open Source Initiative (which coined the term "open source") by over a decade but has a different philosophy [gnu.org] which sometimes reaches different conclusions about what software is acceptable than the open source philosophy does. For the open source movement, running non-free software is okay (not that an open source proponent would call it that; the open source movement exists in part to not talk about software freedom at all). For a free software proponent, non-free software is avoided except when writing a free replacement for a non-free program. The difference in reaction to non-free software [fsfeurope.org] is quite striking.

You can see how that plays out in this /. story: none of the formats this talk has been transcoded to can be played by all users with free software even though this could have been accomodated. Instead of including options free software users could use, we have a list of (what are for most users) non-free alternatives. MP3 is patent-encumbered in many countries, so citizens of those countries can't have free MP3 encoding or decoding software. The QuickTime container format can be free, but the codecs most often used with QuickTime are non-free. Flash can be played with free software but the free replacements aren't yet to the point of maturity where it can be used as a drop-in replacement (and even when the job is done, MP3 soundtracks on Flash video+audio files will pose a problem).

The solution has been around for some time and works well: add Ogg Vorbis audio files and Ogg Theora+Vorbis video+audio files. These files can be played on all platforms and there are implementations which are free software for everyone.

Reasonable expectations

I'm all in favor of the OLPC project. It's a great project, but it shouldn't be seen as a world savior either. OLPC is a project that will make a few Westerners feel good and will help a few thousand (or tens of thousands) people acquire the basics of computing, provided that they are in the right conditions to start with.

But OLPC is not going to convince warring tribes that they should start loving their neighbors. It's not going to resolve hatreds and conflicts that have been raging for decades, if not longer in some cases.

Before a new technology has a chance to improve lives, the basic sociological problems have to be solved. In a place where slavery is OK (they still exist), where women and children are fair game, and where the winner takes all, law and stability extend only as far as the reach of the local warlord -- until the next one takes over. And having to fight bouts of malaria while trying to avoid being caught between warring factions doesn't help making time for learning to read, much less for learning computing.

So let's have reasonable expectation here. If the project is supposed to create world peace, then it will be doomed a failure regardless of its achievements.

freedom and resources

One problem. For the longest time, we have already had more than enough food to feed the world. The primary problem of getting food to the poor was never a cost or distribution problem, it was a political and freedom problem. The fact that we have entered the information age with free software has not changed this problem. While society has advanced greatly in the sciences over the last 150 years. Society has gained nearly nothing in the advancement of freedom and liberty. The US constitution was the cutting edge of that, but has not increased our liberties and powers for a long time.

Notice that how even though Linux is free, that the place that it is used the most is silicon valley - more than any other place in the world. A free market Mecca. Not Africa, not China, not India. That's because it's not about costs, but about freedom. And free markets are not about markets, but about freedom too and people taking advantage of it to create wealth and prosperity where none existed before.

Contrary to what he said, the free market still has limits, but now the limit in supply and demand centers around services and not around content controls. The information age is doing for services what the industrial revolution did for production.

stop the socialism

What does "social justice" have to do with open-source software? Or with closed source? Or with anything? Trying to justify cooperative or closed efforts based on what you think their benefit to mankind will be is off-point. The closed source software occurs because someone wants to make money. The cooperative effort exists because people want to volunteer their efforts. Using the government hammer on the people who want to make money because they're detrimental to society by "consuming money" is as smart as beating down the open-source people because they're "destroying the free market".

"What does Firefox have to do with social justice?

"What does Firefox have to do with social justice?" Dunno. Ask the Debian maintainers...

The self-importance is awe inspiring

Because what has really been holding back the third world all this time is the lack of source code to their C++ compilers.

Open Source (or Free, or whatever the f*ck) software is fanstastic, but Jesus, can we have a little perspective please?

Here's a transcript of the talk

A friend in the free software community has transcribed this talk:http://plone.org/events/conferences/seattle-2 006/ [plone.org].

Why use QuickTime ??

Maybe I didn't look hard enough but the only download-able format I found was QT. Why do this to us? Why not MPEG? Given the theme, I could understand if they wanted to make it available in Ogg, but QT? I can play MPEG with just about anything. Is there some sort of free codec pack that I could use (on Windows), rather then having to install another annoying proprietary player?

Thanks to the editors

...for not posting anything else for several hours so we all had a chance to watch the nearly hour long video.

Access to what?

Is it really access to knowledge, or just access to more mind degenerating nonsense?

Too much of what you find on the Internet is garbage. From the web page equivalents of open mike poetry nights at the local coffee house, to vacuumheads like 9/11 or moon landing conspiracy theorists, there's a lot of rubbish.

Will the network spread truth and liberty, or will the lies just spread faster? Is it a tool of freedom, or a global generator of intelletual smog?

Here's how you save the world:
1. Global education with a solid core of scientific method, basic logic and critical thinking skills.
2. Free access to all known forms off birth control.
3. Bust up the organized religions. Seriously, we have GOT to wean humanity off that shit. It's like every problem in the world can be traced back to some religious text or another.

probably not in the sleightest

How will the one laptop per child project discourage genocide?

While i fully support the OLPC project in spirit, and fully believe that the aims of the OLPC project are completely chivalristic (sp?) in nature, where did they ever promise to end genocide? I honenstly believed their aim to be to simply lower the tech barrier between poor and priveleged children. No more, no less. Where in the hell did the issue of genocice (of any stripe) come into play?

Inspiring, motivating, stimulating keynote.

That speech does a great job of subverting all of the "social justice equals Communism" manure that has been spread.

Re: The self-importance is awe inspiring

Well, to give you a little perspective,one person, attending varsity on the tip of Africa, decided that there was a gap in the market for a paricular product...so he dropped out of varsity because he believed his idea would work....problem...he had no money.What happened? He and some of his friends started a compnay out of his parents garage...developing with OSS tools..python etc...and because these tools were free they were able to develop a workable and usable product..which a very well known US company bought out for millions of dollars. What happened next? The young man took the money that he had made developing his incredibly useful product..which he wouldnt have been able to afford to develop legally if he'd had to use proprietary software...and re-invested by amongst other things founding a company by the name of Canonical...

Now...because one guy had a great idea and was able to pull it off utilising open source software, which he wouldnt have been able to do if all the technology or development software he was utilising was proprietary, the world has a really great linux distro, kids in schools in South Africa who would otherwise never have seen a machine have labs (funded by this man), and get exposure to computers and how to utilise them, whereas in the past this opportunity would never have been presented to them.

I went to varsity with one guy who had never ever seen a machine before he got to first year...can you imagine having to pass a CS degree (you got good results in school and worked hard) never having had any experience with computers...This software movement and its representatives have the right to be self important...why?..because this movement gives anyone with a great idea the tools to make that idea happen...the freedom to package a great operating system, translated into all South Africans' languages, allowing children to make use of technology that they would never otherwise encounter...

People should earn what they have

I'm all about helping the poor having basic necessities, but I definitely think that anyone (poor or not) should earn what they get. I think one of the greatest things that has undermined US culture and other cultures is poorly designed welfare systems. I think people have come to expect too much from others. People have come to believe that they are entitled from someone for the basic necessities in life. The other problem is that once people believe they are entitled to something, it is nearly impossible to convince them otherwise.

I don't want people to suffer and die. But I think that in terms of money, people should what they earn. In terms of knowledge, however, I think think it should be free. For the betterment of society, people should earn the money they get to provide incentive for creating knowledge and knowledge should be shared to be efficient in creating more knowledge and providing opportunity for increased quality of life. There a probably even better reasons than that--feel free to reply.

I think there is a fundamental conflict between the two. Having knowledge that others don't provides a means for one to receive more money that another. Sharing that knowledge will lower that individuals prospects of gain (and power derived from it). It seems that creating knowledge creates power, sharing knowledge shares power.

It will be a nearly impossible change to completely free knowledge because its freedom comes at the cost of those who have money and power. I think that the way to both encourage people to earn what they get and share the knowledge they create is one of the most important problems that society has to solve. I feel that to the extent that a society can embrace both is the extent to which it will progress.

br/

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not a sig

Some helpful background to this presentation...

...is "The Corporation" by Joel Bakan, in both video and book forms. Corporations are of greater power than ever, and it is helpful to take a break at least once in a great while from media that is, after all, owned by corporations.

The communism vs. capitalism distinction is worn out and unproductive, and both the presentation and "The Corporation" are good examples of efforts to draw finer distinctions and alleviate the systematic perpetuation of human suffering.

There will naturally be astroturfers without a conscience, but if the honest cynics patiently consider these efforts, they might find reason to look to a better world.

Killing the World's Poor to Save Them?

This is warmed over Marxist nonsense. An economy of "sharing," placed in direct opposition to the right of ownership, is a round about way of endorsing Communism. OSS is not Communist. It is capitalist, in that it places the right of how to dispose of the owner's property to the property owners. Who, if they so decide, can give it away. The only, only way to help the world's poor is to support the birth and growth of institutions of liberal democracy, which will set the ground for a freely democratic and capitalistic society. Trying to prevent the "other" from achieving the success that we have is a form of imperialist violence, that will only mire future millions in poverty and an early death.

Who pays for the first copy?

While I agree with most points of Eben Moglen's great speech, including the point that Microsoft's days are counted (I think that the days of all big organizations are counted due to the effect of the Internet on society, and, even if this sounds ironically, I think this includes Google.)
I don't agree with his statement that the problem of payment of the first copy is solved.

In fact I think that this problem is far from being solved and I think that this problem is the single most important reason for most closed-source software not being liberated today.

Let me explain this in more detail below. I also give a real life example to illustrate this.

While the situation has improved and some free software developers now get payed for writing free software (usually as an employee), I think that still, most free software developers do not get fairly compensated for their work.

Plus, I am sure that there are many shareware authors and individual software vendors who would be more than happy to liberate their software in case they get compensated for the cost of creating the software and have a viable perspective of being compensated for the further development and maintenance of the software.

How do I know that?

First, I am one of them (independent software vendor).

Second, I know from experience:

I am far from having the cost of development of my software product payed. So the cost of making the first copy has not been payed yet.
In the current stage of development of my business, this is an accepted part of the business plan:

The plan is to first create the software by temporarily bearing the cost myself by using savings, leisure time and incurring debt with the plan to recover that cost later by selling licenses.

Now, selling licenses is a difficult process in its own, so I'd be more than happy to have somebody pay me the total cost of creation of the software in exchange for releasing it under the GPL.

Since I think that my project is a fairly typical one, I give some specific numbers here, so you get an idea of the scope of the issue:

So far, I have invested about 6000 hours of work into this project. Now to convert this to an amout of money, this has to be with an hourly rate. In this example I use the hourly rate for programming services as proposed by my local chamber of commerce, which is a fair number which is calculated in a way that it pays for all expenses related to that work, including taxes, social security, office space, etc.

So I wind up with ost of development of about EUR 576000 or US$758476 so, about 3 quarter of a million dollars.

Now, in that early stage of executing my business plan I have recovered about EUR 27000 or USD 35500 (turnover minus cost of marketing) that's about 4.7% of the cost. The majority of which was payed by one single customer for licenses in the years 1998 and 2003.

Likewise, in the current state of my business plan I have a lot of debt and since I maxed out my debt capacity, I earn the major part of my living with a day job as an employee writing closed-source software for somebody else.

Now, you probably don't care about my current debt levels and about my business plan, and rightly so. I write this as a real life example for illustrating what holds small companies and individual developpers back from open sourcing their software and you may care about that.

You may also not care about my product (and I don't mention it here you gotta find it yourself) but maybe you may care about it. Maybe my product could have a very positive indirect effect on the popularity of the Linux platform if it were open source. (I hope that it being closed source still has part of this effect but of course open source would increase the number of users and thus increase the effect.)

So my point as gained from from experience is:
Getting payment for the cost of the first copy is the major reason why many small software compa

Firefox is about ownership and sharing

it is *my* browser and I can do anything I want with it and I don't have to give it all away. That's why it is under the MPL. But it's also under GPL if you want to share. Isn't choice good?

Colaborative Markup of documents software?

At one point, he's talking about new software they wrote to enable people to work on marking up the new GPL v3 document. Anyone know what the new software is called?

Re:Hahah

Data/Knowledge is a lot different than things like cars. You can share it at no cost to yourself.

Re:Ok...

Tonight I sat back with a tofu burrito from Gorditos and a glass of wine to watch Eben Moglen's keynote to the 2006 Plone Conference...

LOL, what the fuck?

You should agree with the author because he's better than you. Why? Because he's sophisticated (wine) and cares about the planet (tofu).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority [wikipedia.org]