Amazon Enforces New Office Hours Rule (businessinsider.com) 76
Amazon is now monitoring the hours corporate employees spend in the office. From a report: This move is intended to crack down on people who are trying to skirt the company's return-to-office policy, Business Insider has learned. Several teams across Amazon, including the retail and cloud-computing units, were told in recent months that a minimum of two hours per visit is required to count as office attendance, according to multiple screenshots of internal Slack messages obtained by BI and people familiar with the matter. Some teams have been told to stay at least six hours per visit.
Amazon's goal is to ramp up scrutiny of "coffee badging," some of the Slack messages said. Coffee badging refers to employees who badge in, get coffee, and leave the office shortly to satisfy their return-to-office mandate. Amazon started requiring office attendance for most corporate staffers three times a week last year, but it didn't have a minimum-hour obligation for each visit.
Amazon's goal is to ramp up scrutiny of "coffee badging," some of the Slack messages said. Coffee badging refers to employees who badge in, get coffee, and leave the office shortly to satisfy their return-to-office mandate. Amazon started requiring office attendance for most corporate staffers three times a week last year, but it didn't have a minimum-hour obligation for each visit.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
In plainer words, just shut up and do what I tell you.
Re:Maybe a new job is a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
In plainer words, just shut up and do what I tell you.
That's literally how being an employee and/or underling works. There's (almost) always someone higher in the chain telling you what to do. Get over it.
For example. A long time ago, my younger brother was an Airman in the Air Force, with only a high school education. He left the service when he could because he "didn't like people telling him what to do". As the lowest rank in the service his job was literally other people telling him what to do. He could have stayed and gotten more experience and/or education and moved up, but didn't. He was then offered the opportunity to get trained (with pay) to work as a mechanic for an airline, but declined as he would have had to then move to a city with a hub. He ended up working as a service write up at an auto dealership -- again with someone else telling him what to to.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In plainer words, just shut up and do what I tell you.
That's literally how being an employee and/or underling works. There's (almost) always someone higher in the chain telling you what to do. Get over it.
For example. A long time ago, my younger brother was an Airman in the Air Force, with only a high school education. He left the service when he could because he "didn't like people telling him what to do". As the lowest rank in the service his job was literally other people telling him what to do. He could have stayed and gotten more experience and/or education and moved up, but didn't. He was then offered the opportunity to get trained (with pay) to work as a mechanic for an airline, but declined as he would have had to then move to a city with a hub. He ended up working as a service write up at an auto dealership -- again with someone else telling him what to to.
Most white collar jobs have bosses telling you what to do, but not necessarily how to do it. That's sort of why businesses hire professionals, they want someone who can achieve a result without being micromanaged. The rule said to come to the office but didn't specify how long, so if they come into the office for 5 minutes and still get all their work done then they were technically following the rules.
Re: (Score:2)
Management wants people in the office so they can continue to pretend to be useful. When people start communicating with each other and getting shit done, mostly by cutting management (i.e. red tape) out of the process, management notices what everyone else already knows: They're fucking useless.
Re: (Score:2)
so if they come into the office for 5 minutes and still get all their work done then they were technically following the rules.
Management wants employees in the office so they can cross communicate much easier than video conferencing and to build teams, not loner individuals that hide in their home offices, just doing enough to not get fired.
You mean so they can interrupt people and micromanage them. Management also wants employees to work 24/7 for free, so honestly I don't give two fucks what "they" want. I've worked remotely with local and international teams, including an entire Oracle suite migration, with absolutely no issue. It really isn't any harder than communicating in person.
Management wants employees that do more than just "technically following the rules". If you think you are being clever, we can move you to a team that doesn't have a WFH option, like a janitor.
You mean they want ass-kissing boot-licking sycophants, like you. If your response to your employees being clever and outsmarting you is to punish them, you're g
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
In even plainer words, it's just being an employee.
Don't like it, then find another job. Just like you said. They literally won't care. As an employee, you are replaceable. You are not a special snowflake.
Re: Maybe a new job is a good idea (Score:1)
You're not left with the people who are happy with your RTO mandates. You're left with the ones who put up with them because they expect they'd have difficulti
Re:Maybe a new job is a good idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe finding creative ways to be noncompliant with a dumb rule that has no positive impact on work product isn't the same as screwing over the company. If work is being completed to a high degree of quality, who exactly is being screwed over?
Re: (Score:1)
Maybe finding creative ways to be noncompliant with a dumb rule that has no positive impact on work product isn't the same as screwing over the company. If work is being completed to a high degree of quality, who exactly is being screwed over?
The office land owner of course! Also, how else can Amazon keep doing layoffs without calling them that?
Re:Maybe a new job is a good idea (Score:4, Insightful)
who exactly is being screwed over?
Shareholders, who aren't getting the benefit of an employee being fired without being fired, thus with no right to their contractual severance packages. Also, the CEO, who isn't getting closer to the bonus due to having efficiently cut costs by having employees fired without being fired and without their contractual severance packages.
Because, as we all know, the letter of a contract is sacred, and if the employee wasn't psychopathic or sociopathic enough to divine all the ways in which that letter could be twisted against its spirit and against them by the psychopaths and sociopaths running the show, that's their problem, not the CEO's or the shareholders' (of which group the CEO is a member, evidently).
Screw the proles. That's what they deserve for being of an inferior social stratum. /s
Re: (Score:2)
If work is being completed to a high degree of quality, who exactly is being screwed over?
Those who invested in property local to the office.
Re: (Score:3)
There are plenty of people who would LOVE to take your job.
These days, that statement is not necessarily true.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Then why is Joe Xiden letting in all of those "immigrants" that claim to come to the US looking for a better life and a well-paying job?
The ones streaming across the southern border are trying to keep your Mexican restaurant meals and lawn service cheap. They're not going to get hired at the Amazon office. (Although they probably *would* be willing to show up every day in person if Amazon were to somehow need some office workers without any relevant skills.)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Conversely, undocumented immigrants are often the only people willing do those jobs. Round them up and deport them, and watch your produce rot in the field because nobody else will do that hot, dirty, back-breaking labor for the pittance wages those jobs pay.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Then why is Joe Xiden letting in all of those "immigrants" that claim to come to the US looking for a better life and a well-paying job?
Because Republicans consistently and repeatedly vote against any law that'd punish people employing undocumented immigrants.
It's like prostitution, you know. Who deserves being beaten and punished? The women, of course. It's 110% their fault, for wasn't for their trickery and the Good Men who got their services wouldn't have been seduced and tricked into sinning. What could be more evident than that? /s
Re: (Score:1)
How do you suggest we punish Russia for funding and running the gangs that make that 'promise of paradise' to the migrants?
Re: (Score:2)
Just close the gate, once people realize certain countries are no longer "open for business" the number of economic migrants will automatically go down.
Re: (Score:3)
Not everyone can work on prem now. Wife and I both work now and my work is possible to do online, so I'm on school run duty.
Would be pointless if I ever have to, to consider remote-work-hostile organisations like Amazon. Others are likely in similar boats but Amazon won't hear from people like this.
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed. Cry me a river. I work for a major electronics manufacturer and I've had "working from home" (sic) people call me up and ask me to do their job for them because "it's their working from home day".
Slackers.
Sociopaths (Score:5, Funny)
You know how it goes. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Hey... at least they haven't banned bathroom breaks yet, like they did with their delivery drivers. Those cubicles are going to start smelling pretty bad if people start throwing pee bottles in the trashcans.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Bottles? We were supposed to use bottles?
Next you tell me the memos the boss hands out aren't for wiping...
Re: (Score:2)
We'd be lucky to have cubicles at this point, many (most? all?) offices are switching to an open-office plan, but worse. They're calling it "agile seating" which is the same as hotelling or whatever; no assigned seats, desks are cleared every night by the cleaners, you're supposed to store your "personal" stuff (like keyboards, mice, flair) in a locker (that you have to request, and there aren't as many lockers as there are desks, of course).
If you're lucky, your org might have an area designated as theirs,
Start a pool (Score:5, Funny)
Every week someone else takes one for the team and badges everyone in.
Ooh, this could be retro cool (Score:4, Informative)
Maybe they'll put in a steam whistle at headquarters, to mark the shift changes - and, at the main door, they'll have one of those punch-in/punch-out time clocks [alamy.com]!
Bezos will be standing there, wearing a fedora and chomping on a cigar, keeping a sharp eye on the employees...
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I can't get The Flintstones's fanfare out of my head now.
Re: (Score:2)
Yabba Dabba Doo!!
Disagree and Commit (Score:2)
...is one of Amazon's "values". It's batshit crazy. Worst part is their people leave and try to spread this trash to other companies.
Super weird (Score:3)
If you can't tell if someone is remote or not by productivity measures - which is why you're trying to re-invent the time lock - then why worry about where they are instead of worrying about improving your productivity measures?
Yes, there's the whole stealth layoff thing (which ought to be illegal because the reason someone loses employment affects their future prospects), but outside of that this is simply arbitrary exercise of authority.
Attendance metrics can be used to prevent abuse... (Score:5, Interesting)
If you can't tell if someone is remote or not by productivity measures - which is why you're trying to re-invent the time lock - then why worry about where they are instead of worrying about improving your productivity measures?
I don't think you want to be held accountable to your manager's productivity ideals alone. Ever have a boss with unrealistic expectations? Picture it from upper management's perspective. Lower level boss wants to fire employee because he thought a 6 week task should have been completed in 2 weeks. Upper management doesn't know the nuances well enough to know who is lying.
Was the employee slacking or is the manager clueless? Or the employee says they're having mental or physical health issues and needs a bit more patience. Do you know for sure?...or are they just overemployed or fucking around during the day?
If you're a great trustworthy employee, you can be awesome from everywhere, but a good portion of my team is not like you.
If you're showing up for work daily, we know you're not fucking around too much. It is easier to give the benefit of the doubt that you're being extra thorough and putting more care into the task and the manager had unrealistic expectations. Other staffers can more easily help you when you're in the office rather than waiting for when everyone can get on a call. When you're remote?...we have no clue what is going on.
Many employees are not as motivated, talented and trustworthy as you view yourself.
Re: (Score:2)
So the reason everyone has to return to office is because of... mediocre middle management? Either screwing over their team with unrealistic expectations, or too clueless to be able to track performance remotely?
Because these are the only two options you presented.
Well...you can always find a better job... (Score:3, Insightful)
So the reason everyone has to return to office is because of... mediocre middle management? Either screwing over their team with unrealistic expectations, or too clueless to be able to track performance remotely? Because these are the only two options you presented.
I get why you feel that way and I am explaining to you why my management wanted people in the office initially. For most teams, it's done on a case-by-case basis. I get my work done. I do my work better that most of my peers and am very transparent in regards to what is going on in my life and schedule. Other employees are not so transparent and the boss probably doesn't have the heartless nature to just automatically fire them, so having the problematic employees come into the office is an intermediate
Re: (Score:2)
I do work at AWS, but I'm not based in the US. I'm actually the only member of my team in my country, so sending me back to office didn't exactly improve team collaboration in my case, it just added inconvenience. Apparently this doesn't prevent my US-based manager to promote me, since we're working on that right now.
I also happen to be in a peculiar work arrangement that isn't actually tracked for attendance, more because of happenstance and incompetence of whoever enforced this, than by design, however th
Re: (Score:2)
There is only one reason for them pushing return to the office - MONEY!
Have you ever stopped to think about how much does it cost you to commute every day to the office ?! Rent/mortgage (for the people who live somewhere just because of the work), car, fuel, car maintenance, food (restaurants vs home cooked), clothes, the time wasted in commuting.
All of those expenses are profits in other businesses. Businesses in which the management echelon has
The employees are wrong here (Score:4, Insightful)
I like work from home. I think everyone should have the option to work from home. I think what should matter is the amount and quality of your work, not where it is done from or when. But the idea that a company is wrong for punishing people when they completely ignore the rules is also wrong. If you are told you need to work from the office and you badge in, get some coffee, and go home you have to expect to be fired. The employees are free to go and get WFH jobs somewhere else (and I would fully support them doing that) but I can't support the idea you can just completely ignore what the company is telling you to do and not expect to be punished. Sorry, the company still gets a say in the working conditions, no matter how much you want to just do your own thing.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
If you impose a bullshit rule, watch me pit my smarts against it.
I'm a pentester. I treat crap like that as a challenge. It's a bit like back when the game studios started putting in copy protection. After a while, thwarting that copy protection became a much more entertaining game than most of the crap they produced.
If my employer wants to "gamify" my work experience, more power to him!
Re: (Score:2)
Part of that pitting smarts against the rule is to avoid the backlash.
I'd stay longer anyway. (Score:5, Interesting)
Look, if I have to shower, dress and drive to the office, I'm (usually) going to stay longer than two hours, probably the whole day -- even if I don't have to. For a few jobs I've had, like when I worked at NASA Langley, it was a (minimum) 45 minute highway drive, through a bridge tunnel, often with less than ideal traffic, so leaving early, if it had been an option, would have been dumb. I've had other jobs that were literally 5 minutes from home and going into the office wasn't that big a deal. I've also worked 100% from home, excepting the occasional at-office meeting, and found it nice, especially being able to work whenever, like at 3am, but also a bit lonely and isolating. Personally, I like working at the office as it helps keep me focused, helps compartmentalize my work/life balance, and affords face-to-face interactions with co-workers. As both a software engineer and systems administrator (larger Unix/Linux systems) some of my work can be done remotely but some has to be done locally. I deal with it, usually at the office.
The bottom line here is that your employment means you also agree to abide by the rules of that employer -- even ones you think are the dumb.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Look, if I have to shower, dress and drive to the office, I'm (usually) going to stay longer than two hours, probably the whole day -- even if I don't have to.
Hopefully you shower, shave, and dress anyway so that's a sunk cost. Sunk costs shouldn't affect your subsequent actions. Although, my office had a shower room, I wonder if personal grooming that counts as in-office time.
Around here, my drive to work took 60 minutes in traffic, 30 off-peak. What would make the most sense would be to hang out on Zoom for a few hours, head to the office at 10, badge in, and leave no later than 2. That's about 60 minutes driving for 3.5 hours in the office (minus a lunch break
Re: (Score:2)
Hopefully you shower, shave, and dress anyway so that's a sunk cost.
When you're working from home, that's not always required. :-)
Although, my office had a shower room, I wonder if personal grooming that counts as in-office time.
I didn't have that, but if I was in the office, whatever I was doing I counted as in-office time. Staring at the ceiling, drinking coffee -- pondering a code/admin problem... If I'm there, they're paying me.
Re: (Score:3)
We currently have about 35 degrees Celsius where I live. You expect me to dress for working in my home office?
I volunteer to keep the cam offline when we're in a teams meeting. If you insist in me turning it on... well, you wanted it that way.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I can see the need to dress, depending on the weather, but why the shower? Is it Christmas already again?
we want our 60-80 hour weeks back and WFH is not p (Score:2)
we want our 60-80 hour weeks back and WFH is not putting that in
Re: (Score:2)
Sure it is, just as much as it was back in the office.
You really think anyone actually worked 60-80 hours? Unless "work" equates to "keeping a chair from floating off into space", you're delusional.
Oh, the irony .... (Score:2)
I worked for these guys for a while, during the start of COVID. Despite our team's supposed primary function being providing in-person PC support for AWS employees in the various data centers? They quickly pivoted to demanding we work only from home and do "chat and phone support". We looked forward to the one day a week they allowed a few of us to come in to the office to work. The place was nearly empty, mind you... with the whole staff ordered to work from home. But we could, at least, take a break from
so (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Glad to see that someone managed to streamline the "office work process".
Wait, how do they measure? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
By the amount of human tissue found after everything burned down.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm guessing: By applying the attendance rule only during days in which there was not an emergency evacuation at the office.
Obligatory Fantozzi (Score:2)
Sticks don't work as well as ... um donuts? (Score:2)
I date with the dinosaurs it seems. Back in those days meeting attendance was increased dramatically for the meetings that had donuts available for the attendees. That worked better than the threats we were more used to. Google purportedly has wonderful employee amenities including food, free food. Amazon could provide employees who attend work (you checked in before 0800 the last couple work days and checked out past 1700) get free food on their badge's attendance credit. They also get access to the gym an
Re: (Score:2)
Mod parent up. My wife's teams have successfully delivered multiple sets of hardware for space missions due to being fuelled by meeting donuts and the promise of a team-member's favourite home-made cake if they hit deadlines. We're mammals: of course 'free' calories are going to be attractive :)
Re: (Score:2)
Meeting attendance went through the ROOF when we started teams meetings from home. The bi-weekly speeches by our C-suite were pretty much dead, with only a handful of die hard bootlicks going while they were in person, recently they had to upgrade the streaming server to accommodate the amount of people that participate. Pretty much every single person in the company that isn't on vacation or sick is there!
If you really want attendance, get people to join from home!
Ok, now for the real reason behind it: It'