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McDonald's Ice Cream Machine Hackers Say They Found the 'Smoking Gun' That Killed Their Startup (wired.com) 80

Posted by BeauHD from the behind-the-scenes dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Wired: A little over three years have passed since McDonald's sent out an email to thousands of its restaurant owners around the world that abruptly cut short the future ofa three-person startup called Kytch -- and with it, perhaps one of McDonald's best chances for fixing its famously out-of-order ice cream machines. Until then, Kytch had been selling McDonald's restaurant owners a popular internet-connected gadget designed to attach to their notoriously fragile and often broken soft-serve McFlurry dispensers, manufactured by McDonalds equipment partner Taylor. The Kytch device would essentially hack into the ice cream machine's internals, monitor its operations, and send diagnostic data over the internet to an owner or manager to help keep it running. But despite Kytch's efforts to solve the Golden Arches' intractable ice cream problems, a McDonald's email in November 2020 warned its franchisees not to use Kytch, stating that it represented a safety hazard for staff. Kytch says its sales dried up practically overnight.

Now, after years of litigation, the ice-cream-hacking entrepreneurs have unearthed evidence that they say shows that Taylor, the soft-serve machine maker, helped engineer McDonald's Kytch-killing email -- kneecapping the startup not because of any safety concern, but in a coordinated effort to undermine a potential competitor. And Taylor's alleged order, as Kytch now describes it, came all the way from the top. On Wednesday, Kytch filed a newly unredacted motion for summary adjudication in its lawsuit against Taylor for alleged trade libel, tortious interference, and other claims. The new motion, which replaces a redacted version from August, refers to internal emails Taylor released in the discovery phase of the lawsuit, which were quietly unsealed over the summer. The motion focuses in particular on one email from Timothy FitzGerald, the CEO of Taylor parent company Middleby, that appears to suggest that either Middleby or McDonald's send a communication to McDonald's franchise owners to dissuade them from using Kytch's device.

"Not sure if there is anything we can do to slow up the franchise community on the other solution," FitzGerald wrote on October 17, 2020. "Not sure what communication from either McD or Midd can or will go out." In their legal filing, the Kytch cofounders, of course, interpret "the other solution" to mean their product. In fact, FitzGerald's message was sent in an email thread that included Middleby's then COO, David Brewer, who had wondered earlier whether Middleby could instead acquire Kytch. Another Middleby executive responded to FitzGerald on October 17 to write that Taylor and McDonald's had already met the previous day to discuss sending out a message to franchisees about McDonald's lack of support for Kytch. But Jeremy O'Sullivan, a Kytch cofounder, claims -- and Kytch argues in its legal motion -- that FitzGerald's email nonetheless proves Taylor's intent to hamstring a potential rival. "It's the smoking gun," O'Sullivan says of the email. "He's plotting our demise."
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McDonald's Ice Cream Machine Hackers Say They Found the 'Smoking Gun' That Killed Their Startup More

McDonald's Ice Cream Machine Hackers Say They Found the 'Smoking Gun' That Killed Their Startup

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  • Not all machines are broken (Score:5, Informative)

    by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Friday December 15, 2023 @07:24PM (#64084927)

    While it's fashionable to claim the machines are broken, that is not always the case. In some cases the machine has been used so heavily the ice cream mix won't properly harden because the tube is so warm.* In other cases the machine may not have been put together the night before after it was cleaned.**

    While yes, there is a part which breaks, not all the machines are broken.

    * Assuming the configuration is the same, there is a metal tube through which the mix moves through and it is at that point the mix turns to soft serve. If the machine is used continually for an extended time that tube loses its ability to sufficiently cool the mix until it's had time to cool down.

    ** I used to clean my local McDonald's ice cream machine during the graveyard shift when the place was closed. It's not a difficult task, but it required reaching into the cooling tube and removing five (six?) stainless steel blades which would cut you if you looked at them wrong. These would get soaked in a cleaning solution for a few hours. While that was taking place a bucket containing the same cleaing solution was hooked to the machine and run through to push out any remaining mix. After that, clean water was run though to rinse the system. Then the hoses were removed and put into their own small bin filled with cleaning solution.

    Once everything was cleaned (including the outside), the reassembly took place. The hoses were drained then water run thorugh them to remove any solution. The blades were then rinsed under clean wate to remove any cleaning solution, then dried (without losing a finger). After that, you had to reach into the cooling tube and reinsert the stainless steel blades without leaving any blood behind, followed by the hoses being reattached.

    At that point the machine was ready to receive the ice cream mix which was added late in the breakfast shift so the machine had time to cool down and make ready for the first cone to be pulled. If someone didn't correctly reassemble the machine it wouldn't work. This was usually the result of not aligning the blades which meant they were scraping the inside of the cooling tube. On the other hand, if there wasn't someone there to clean the machine the night before you do not want to use the mix which has been sitting out all night inside the machine.

    • I'm not an expert on ice cream machines, but this sounds like a very old, outdated design. In the Youtube video I pointed oit, the host literally said "The UI looks like something from 1983" despite the firmware being updated through USB thumbdrives. I'm willing to bet that the machines from other companies are much safer and user friendly when it comes to routine maintenance tasks.

      • Itâ(TM)s not unusual at all for restaurant systems. KDS (kitchen display systems) run on embedded 486 chips with DOS, handles heat fluctuations and humidity, never dies, never needs updates.

        I think the primary concern with third party systems bolted on top of a automated food mixing device would be liability, the concoction before mixing is not fit for human consumption, containing things like glycol and preservatives at potentially lethal concentrations, the machines according to investigations by thi

    • That is nice a nice first person description, but does not explain how Kytch nonetheless appears to significantly reduce downtime on these machines. Even if all it is telling them is that they put it back together wrong that would still save them a service call apparently.
      • (IIRC) Kytch actually displays information that shows the nature of the problem rather than the vague crap that shows up on the VFD of the Taylor machine.

      • Re:Not all machines are broken (Score:5, Insightful)

        by quantaman ( 517394 ) on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:09PM (#64085025)

        That is nice a nice first person description, but does not explain how Kytch nonetheless appears to significantly reduce downtime on these machines. Even if all it is telling them is that they put it back together wrong that would still save them a service call apparently.

        The big fear with a machine like that is folks don't clean it or something breaks and is undetected, some kind of bacteria starts growing inside, and suddenly a bunch of customers end up in the hospital.

        So I'm guessing they probably shutdown at the slightest sign of a problem to avoid that happening.

        If Kytch was circumventing the shutdown mechanisms, of even giving owners an easy fix when the manufacturer wanted owners to give it a full cleaning, then I could see a legit safety concern (for the public, but the manufacturer would never admit that). But from the emails it looks like it was simply the case the machines had crappy diagnostics and Kytch gave better ones, and the manufacturer was scared that Kytch would build this into a relationship with MacDonald's and threaten some part of their business (and they were too cheap to simply buy them).

        • The big fear with a machine like that is folks don't clean it or something breaks and is undetected, some kind of bacteria starts growing inside, and suddenly a bunch of customers end up in the hospital. So I'm guessing they probably shutdown at the slightest sign of a problem to avoid that happening.

          Sure but that does not explain why other fast food joints are so much more likely to have functioning machines. I doubt they are all simply less safe than McDonalds.

        • McDonald's must really be behind the times if every other fast food joint has this figured out.

          • Re:Not all machines are broken (Score:5, Insightful)

            by freeze128 ( 544774 ) on Saturday December 16, 2023 @11:06AM (#64085805)
            No, McDonalds has figured it out. Rather than making money by selling ice cream cones to customers, they can make more money by colluding with Taylor to force franchisees to pay for frequent service calls to "fix" a machine that is broken only in the way that it is locked up after a failed cleaning cycle, and the reset sequence requires a service call.

            McDonalds owns a large interest in Taylor, which is how the money gets to them.

        • There's some impressive speculation there, I notice. That doesn't preclude the possibility or even indicate any insignificant probability, but it would be good to know something more certain.

    • Thank you for giving the information from the trenches on how these machines are cleaned. I donâ(TM)t know what differences there are internationally, but there isnâ(TM)t a meme here in Australia about maccas soft serve machines/ milkshake machines being frequently broken.

      It did sound like the machine you were cleaning wasnâ(TM)t well designed in terms of being easy to clean and maintain. It was possible to maintain, but insufficient thought went into making it solidly idiot proof.

      • Not to rag on MdDonald's kitchen staff, but they are not well known to be the type to be handling machine blades that "will cut you if you look at them wrong", nor should they be expected to have the kind of skills an auto mechanic has. :-/

        • Re: Not all machines are broken (Score:5, Insightful)

          by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:50PM (#64085091)

          Not to rag on MdDonald's kitchen staff, but they are not well known to be the type to be handling machine blades that "will cut you if you look at them wrong", nor should they be expected to have the kind of skills an auto mechanic has. :-/

          All I can tell you is those blades were sharp. They were not like a spatula scraping down the sides of a bowl, these could have been used to slide roast beef. And as I said, it wasn't a difficult process, you just had to take your time and do things in the correct order with the biggest piece making sure everything was sanitized.

          Since I worked graveyard and the place was closed, I had all the time I needed. While the blades and hoses were soaking I cleaned the machine then moved on to whatever came next which usually involved more cleaning. As the end of my shift approached I'd get some of the food ready for the breakfast shift such as the eggs or stocking frozen hash browns, getting the oil up to temperature (which I had both screened to remove bits of fries and added another block of fresh shortening or simpy removed to a grease bin out back and started fresh), making sure sausage patties were stocked, any bread products, and so on.

          The nice thing was I was usualy done by 3 AM which meant I had two hours of nothing until 5 when the morning manager came in. When my shift ended I'd go home, get a shower and get some sleep, then repeat the next night. Got extra pay for working night as well.

    • Re:Not all machines are broken (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:32PM (#64085067)

      That's a load of horse shit. The machines are broken by design because of software. https://www.wired.com/story/th... [wired.com]

      Someone adds mix too fast and the machine errors out and can only be fixed by a service call. That and every minor issue requires a service call that only a single vendor is allowed to perform.

      • Why such a racket went on without the feds raising a fuss is a mystery to me. If I was a franchise owner, I would take the ol' Taylor out to the parking lot and put a few rounds into it, and let the homeless guy take out his life frustrations on it with a baseball bat. Then I would drop the wreck off at the front door of the headquarters of either Taylor or Mc Donalds.

        • Re:Not all machines are broken (Score:4, Informative)

          by TWX ( 665546 ) on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:59PM (#64085111)

          And then due to your contract for the franchise, McDonalds lawyers would show up the next day with a court order taking over all of your stores, seizing bank accounts of the franchise, and changing the locks, to then go through and audit everything, probably firing any staff that you had more than a professional relationship with (ie friends, family) and then finally going through the motions to permanently sever you from the business before finding someone else to sell it to.

          • If I was 'putting down' a Taylor machine, I'm already at that point of "Bring it on, bitches!"

          • And then due to your contract for the franchise, McDonalds lawyers would show up the next day with a court order taking over all of your stores, seizing bank accounts of the franchise, and changing the locks, to then go through and audit everything, probably firing any staff that you had more than a professional relationship with (ie friends, family) and then finally going through the motions to permanently sever you from the business before finding someone else to sell it to.

            So McDonalds is basically evil then? Not like we didn't already know...

            • And the poster is acting like McDonalds can come right in and begin changing locks and physically confiscating property over a destroyed Taylor machine. Aside from McDonalds not having any law enforcement powers, a franchise owner would most likely stall this mess by taking McDonakds corporate to court. The only thing corporate can do is maybe void the agreement and tell the franchise owner to stop using the McDonalds name and stop selling their branded products under threat of lawsuit.

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by TWX ( 665546 )

                McDonalds owns the restaurant itself. The franchisee is a tenant.

                • Even if that's the case, people are squatting inside peoole's homes and those homeowners who had their homes 'stolen' are facing court battles to remove those squatters. Somehow I doubt it's as simple as McDonalds corporate being able to come into the restraunt and change the locks.
                  • Also, it depends on who the landlord/owner of the building itself is, and whether McDonalds corporate's name is on the lease, especially with Mc-D restaurants operating out of office buildings and malls. It's not a fully cut and dry situation. And if the franchise owner's name is on the lease either with or without corporate's name being on that same lease, corporate can't just come in and change the locks.
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    • While it is clear that you have some first-hand knowledge of the workings of these machines, I would hazard that if this were the only thingâ"or even the most common thingâ"wrong with them, we wouldn't be seeing anything about a lawsuit. Nobody would have bought the diagnostic devices and the company would have died on it's own, no intervention necessary.

    • Jesus, that sounds like a chore. Can’t somebody design a self cleaning soft serve machine and/or a robot to do that? All the issues you mentioned sound like design negligence. For example that tube overheat issue can be avoided or at least reduced with some kind of procedural changes, warnings, sensors, or additional cooling (though that last one will increase cost).

    • Sounds like their machines could be used more if they had a set of spare parts to swap in while the cleaning happens? Maybe I'm oversimplifying the problem.

    • After that, you had to reach into the cooling tube and reinsert the stainless steel blades without leaving any blood behind, followed by the hoses being reattached.

      Of course you had to leave blood behind, how do you think the McDonalds vanilla sundaes are made?

      Or an I giving away trade secrets there?

  • Why is McD protecting their unreliable machine from potential competitors? The only reason I can think of is they want to charge franchise owners an arm and leg for repairs.

    But how is it good for general business to keep having flaky ice-cream machines? Sounds like penny-wise-pound-foolish to me. Accounts don't know how to measure losses from pissed off customers so they perhaps ignore that factor in their profit estimation spreadsheets, so the "bilk franchisee for repairs" income figure stands out.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Tablizer ( 95088 )

      Correction: "Accountants", not "Accounts". (Stupid eyes! I checked 3 times! I want Bill's 6g nano-implant chip with GrammarGPT.)

    • Re:Protecting garbage is dumb (Score:4, Informative)

      by Malays2b0wen ( 10422574 ) on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:22PM (#64085047)
      The YT video clesrly shows a buddy-buddy agreement between Taylor and McDonalds. Both MC-D corporate and Taylor are making good money from this arrangement; it's the franchise owners who were told to get fucked.
      • But it won't be long befire franchise owners hsd enough of these shenanigans and we will have brand new Wendy's and Burger Kings. I wouldn't sign into a franchise agreement that has a big money pit in the middle.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

          But it won't be long befire franchise owners hsd enough of these shenanigans and we will have brand new Wendy's and Burger Kings. I wouldn't sign into a franchise agreement that has a big money pit in the middle.

          The franchise fee for a McD's is $1M. Yes, a million dollars.

          Why? As a franchise owner, a McD's is extremely profitable.

          You run one right and it's the license to print money.

          Why aren't Burger King and Wendy's bigger? I mean, their franchise fees are far lower. But at the same time, people don't go a

        • That is where kytch came in
              They could install one piece of hardware and mansgers would have a human readable version of the error code so that they could just fix it quickly.

          No waiting for 3 days for a $500 tech to puch a reset button.

          It is also why taylor and mcdonalds are in lawsuits. I hope kytch can pull a win out of this. Break the monoploy

    • The only thing being competed with here are the 'techs' being called out to "fix" a locked machine at an insane cost. Taylor can still force sell their garbage machines with no worry as the franchise agreement forbids using machines from competitors.
  • Here's a video that explains the real problem in depth https://youtube.com/watch?v=Sr... [youtube.com] Quite a feat that Taylor got Ronald to wear the skirt in their deep romantic relationship. "represented a safety hazard" Wow they could've at least tried come up with a better excuse than this. But they are so big and powerful they don't really have to.

  • Johnny Harris (Youtube) did a great doc on this (Score:5, Informative)

    by DigitalSorceress ( 156609 ) on Friday December 15, 2023 @07:37PM (#64084959)

    Johnny Harris (youtuber) did a great mini documentary on the whole "why are the machines always down" and it was a fascinating tale that basically said that McDonalds corporate and Taylor were likely conspiring against those guys.. it was pretty good stuff - he even did some social engineering posing as a repair tech at one point.

    • Taylor went with the razor blade model, with the McFlurry machine being the "handle" and the endless overpriced 'repairs' being the blades. I'm sure franchise owners would like nothing more than to slap up a huge sign saying "NO! WE DON'T HAVE MCFLURRIES HERE! THIS IS WHY..." but they are being monstered by corporate into selling McFlurries.

  • Middleby's then COO, David Brewer, who had wondered earlier whether Middleby could instead acquire Kytch

    At this point, McDonald's, who has probably suffered the most harm from this fiasco, should be looking at acquiring Middleby. Then taking it apart and only save the pieces needed to fix the McFlurry machines.

  • nothing personal just business.

  • One quibble (Score:4, Funny)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Friday December 15, 2023 @09:02PM (#64085115)

    When you talk about this particular McDonalds offering, "ice cream" really should be in quotes.

    • A lot of 'food' has ingredients that look like they belong to something that came out of a chemical plant. This is likely part of the reason so many people are so crazy, mentally slow, and deranged these days (going back to the lead gas/juvenile delinquency connection.)
  • "Middleby's then COO, David Brewer, who had wondered earlier whether Middleby could instead acquire Kytch" Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. Micro$oft taught them well.

  • Franchisee agreements are strict with McD's. Even if they win, what would they achieve? You can't get a franchise to buy it - they're prohibited from doing so. And violating that agreement means you can lose your franchise.

    And McD's is a landowner - they make most of their money leasing to the franchisee the land their restaurant sits on (over 60% of their revenue is from real estate). This means you violate the lease agreement, McD's the landlord will change the locks on your building, and install a new fr

  • I love the fact that we're self-righteous about this.

  • Oakland jury trial? mcd will get it moved to IL!

  • .. stop fixing our inferior broken product or be damned.

  • Maybe McD's should get new machines from a different company ? Or threaten to, to put pressure on current company !
    • As consumers, we think they should. But, if the machines worked, then the money from ice cream sales would go to the franchisees. Instead, McD colludes with Taylor to get a piece of the repair money.
  • If the machines donâ(TM)t break, the ice cream maker doesnâ(TM)t get service calls. McDonaldâ(TM)s doesnâ(TM)t own the franchiseâ(TM)s, so they donâ(TM)t pay for the service repair, but can somehow stop franchises from acting in their own self interest

  • I'll just leave this here. You're welcome.

    https://mcbroken.com/ [mcbroken.com]

  • I see what they did there...
  • Seems like the Whole point of the ice cream machine is to SELL It's products. and McD's should support any effort to SELL and Make more money. but if the Machine don't work they don't make anymore money, so I don't understand why the company is hesitant to adapt and improve their products.

  • The root problem is that McDonalds corporate makes more money from Taylor service calls out to restaurants to fix the machines than they make from actually selling ice-cream.

    And they know that any other sales they loose because of the broken machines are also a drop in the bucket compared to revenue from the Taylor repairs.

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