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Amazon's Cashierless Tech is Coming To Whole Foods Next Year (theverge.com) 94

Posted by msmash from the up-next dept.
Amazon is bringing its cashierless "Just Walk Out" technology to two new Whole Foods locations next year, the company has announced. From a report: One of the stores will be in Washington, DC, while the second will be in Sherman Oaks, California. When they're open, customers will have the option of paying at a traditional self-checkout or customer service booth, or having the new technology automatically bill them when they leave the store. The move marks Amazon's latest step towards scaling its cashierless technology, which works by using a series of cameras and sensors to automatically detect what people pick up off shelves, into a variety of larger stores. Just Walk Out originally debuted in small Amazon Go convenience stores, before the company scaled it up to work in bigger and bigger grocery stores.
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Amazon's Cashierless Tech is Coming To Whole Foods Next Year More

Amazon's Cashierless Tech is Coming To Whole Foods Next Year

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  • Cashiers? since just walking in and (Score:3)

    by oldgraybeard ( 2939809 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @11:24AM (#61775765)
    stealing what ever you want from a business is OK now. Why would a business need cashiers or cashierless tech.

    • Maybe they're planning to equip them with lasers, machine guns and auto-targeting capabilities.

    • you won't steal all that much without getting caught, and the costs for what little you do steal are made up tenfold by doing away with cashiers and their wages. Not to mention the decline in wages when several hundred thousand people are put out of work and are now desperate to take anything.

      Supply and demand goes both ways. Fewer jobs, more labor supply, prices (read: wages) drop. 70% of job losses since the 80s were due to process improvement & automation. Business Insider has an article you can
      • Those flash mob things have been gaining traction. Out of nowhere about 20+ teenage hoodlums go into a convent store and just start snatching a bunch of things and just walk out. Despite advances in cameras they still are never able to catch a bunch of 17yo kids wearing hoodies and sunglasses. Unless this store has some amazing tech that can read the EIN numbers off all the cell phones and track the hoodlums down, I see this as a very limited technology. Like limited to only to areas where even petty crime

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by cusco ( 717999 )

          Stealing from a convent store? Didn't the nuns armed with rulers stop them? :-)

          Capturing a listing of phones that are in the store at the time? Not really "amazing tech", malls track your cell phone as you walk around already. They can rent spaces with more foot traffic passing by for higher prices, and that's one of the ways they track traffic patterns. They've done that for most of a decade.

    • stealing what ever you want from a business is OK now.

      Who says that it is ok? Since the start of your premise is false (and easily falsifiable), the rest of your riposte is poop. But I'll take a bite.

      Why would a business need cashiers or cashierless tech.

      Ignoring the obviously false premise of your post, this question is legitimate on its own. A business needs cashiers, or cashierless tech depending on its goals, location and customer base. Moreover, these two are not mutually exclusive as there are many, many businesses out there that have both to great effect.

    • $15 an hour for an employee. Add to that insurance, benefits, labor union disputes, lockers, locker security, paid leave, etc... and the cost of a single individual working at a grocery store is at least $60,000 a year. For 20 people, which should be enough for 5 people per shift, 7 days a week, that's $1.2 million a year. Though, I imagine that the typical large grocery store will have 10 people on staff on average which will be $2.4 million a year.

      Now consider that a full cart of groceries probably costs

  • Weighed items? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by crow ( 16139 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @11:29AM (#61775781) Homepage Journal

    This is fine for items in boxes or cans, but grocery stores have lots of items that are priced by weight. The produce section would have to change from selling apples by the pound to pricing per item. Many items like cheese and packaged meat are also by weight which can only be determined if the cameras are able to read the label where it says how much each individual package costs.

    Well, if they're rolling it out, they've obviously found a way to deal with those issues, but it will be interesting to see how it goes.

    • I guess they will still have someone at the deli counter to slice and weigh items and slap a sticker on them, while linking the package and its total price to your account.
      • I guess they will still have someone at the deli counter to slice and weigh items and slap a sticker on them, while linking the package and its total price to your account.

        And for those four peaches you buy? That one onion? Will someone be on hand to slap a sticker on them as well? How about those coffee beans you ground?

        • Will someone be on hand to slap a sticker on them as well?

          You will. Surely you're capable of doing that? It's not rocket science.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by mark-t ( 151149 )
            But who's going to make sure that you slap on the right sticker?
            • You, of course.

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by mark-t ( 151149 )
                Right, but what's to stop me from putting on a sticker for a less expensive product?

                Usually that job would fall to the cashier who can tell if I've mislabelled something. How does that work if there is no cashier?

                • Forget "less expensive products" -- how can the cashier know that you haven't actually weighed only six of the seven apples in the bag? Yet somehow it's still viable enough that I've been shopping in stores relying on weighing goods by customers for almost three decades and so far there don't seem to have been any problems with that since those stores are still operating.

        • can the system work at supermarket sweep speed?

          • Re: (Score:3)

            by cusco ( 717999 )

            Better. Go to an Amazon Fresh store a couple of times and you'll be shocked at the difference in customer throughput. Walk in, scan your palm at the turnstile, grab a basket (or bring your own bag), pick out your stuff, scan your palm at the turnstile, throw your stuff in a bag, and leave. I can go in, buy a dozen items, and leave in less time than I spend in the cashier line at QFC. Really.

            I didn't used to mind waiting for the cashier, but now that the Weekly World News is no longer being sold there I

        • And for those four peaches you buy? That one onion? Will someone be on hand to slap a sticker on them as well? How about those coffee beans you ground?

          Bro, I bought produce at a nearby Walmart (one of few that are nicely stocked and clean) with several cashierless stations. Produce has labels that say what they are, and the self-serve touch display at the cashierless register lets you scan them, or search them in a touch-screen catalog.

          This is not different from going to Home Depot and buying a bunch of washers or bricks, which don't have a sku attached to them, but that I can search for them in a similar touch-screen in the self-serve scan/register.

          I

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by cusco ( 717999 )

          Peaches and onions will be sold by each, rather than by weight. I haven't seen coffee grinders in Whole Foods, but I've only been in the one nearest my house.

          The tech is really quite slick, and works startlingly well, it's deployed already in their Go and Fresh stores. Toss two onions in your basket and it adds two to your account, take one out and it takes one off your bill. No sticker needed, since the thing starts off in a bin that the system has previously mapped as being onions. Scan your palm when

      • they did away with most of that a while ago. They'll slice cheese and deli meat, but everything that requires a real butcher is trucked in now. Grocery stores did that in the mid 2000s so they could finish breaking the Unions since butchers are (believe it or not) skilled labor. This way they can use prisoners or H2-Bs.

        • Prisoners...with knives. No, nothing bad there.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by cusco ( 717999 )

          Actually more often than not they're using illegals now, since if they're injured they just call Immigration and there's no pesky Workers Compensation claims. Tyson Foods has repeatedly been caught paying truckers $200/head to bring in mojados to their chicken processing plants.

    • Customers already weigh and bag. [dreamstime.com] Pricing is simply a smart bread clip [wikipedia.org] away. Match with the scale at the self-checkout.

      • I've never, ever been in a grocery store where you were expected to weigh and label the produce you purchase. That all happens at checkout.

        • I've never, ever been in a grocery store where you were expected to weigh and label the produce you purchase.

          And I've been visiting one every week. So what?

          • It should be readily apparent, but - your statement was “customers already weigh and bag”, when obviously it’s not the ubiquitous practice you think it is.

            • Excuse me - Ostracus’ statement, not yours.

            • If you mean literally ubiquitous (i.e., present literally everywhere, with no exceptions), then no. I've never said it's a *ubiquitous* practice. But it's widespread enough (like half the shops where I live or something like that?) that 93 Escort Wagon's experience of *never* having done it himself seems peculiar to me.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by mark-t ( 151149 )

          Reasonably, you would want to have an idea of how much you are going to be paying for something *before* you take it to the cashier, so it makes sense to provide scales for the customer. You don't *HAVE* to weigh your product before you take it to the cashier, but the option is still there.

          Also, if you don't label the bag with a product code before you take it to the cashier, then the cashier has to look it up and that takes extra time. If you put the wrong code, then it takes even longer because the c

          • Nowadays a lot of produce has those little stickers on them - so the code is readily available without looking it up. But most of the cashiers I interact with seem to have the codes memorized anyway. Even in the self-checkout - half the time the person overseeing those kiosks will say "bananas are 4011" before I have a chance to look it up.

            On a side note - those little stickers are a scourge on humanity.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by cusco ( 717999 )

              Pain in the ass in the compost pile too. They're almost all plastic, so I have to pull them out before spreading the compost if we've forgotten to peel them off stuff.

              • I’m a little surprised they haven’t been making them out of a compostable “plastic” (corn starch is the base, I believe). I realize it probably wouldn’t break down completely in a home compost pile, but still.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mark-t ( 151149 )
        And how does that self-weigh-and-bag-and-checkout stop customers from switching tags?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jhecht ( 143058 )
      Knowing Amazon and the way they have managed Whole Foods (at least until I stopped going there) it's entirely possible they have not even thought of the issues of tracking individual peaches, cold cuts or meat sliced at the deli, and so far. Either that or they decided that people would rather have the convenience of cashierless checkout than picking individual items of produce and getting just as much sliced cold cuts as they want. After all, baloney usually comes pre-packaged.

    • "This is fine for items in boxes or cans, but grocery stores have lots of items that are priced by weight. The produce section would have to change from selling apples by the pound to pricing per item. "

      You mean like avocados, kiwis, pomegranates, pumpkin, coconuts, cucumbers, melons, celery, artichokes and so on?

      The world would stop revolving.

    • It works for weighted items. The shelves have scales on them, and there are cameras everywhere watching what you pick up.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mark-t ( 151149 )
        What's to stop you from, say, picking up one product that sells by weight and labelling it as another (presumably less expensive) for the checkout? A human cashier would be able to tell just by looking that a product in a transparent plastic bag does not match whatever the code you had for it was.

        • You don't go thru checkout at these amazon stores. You sign in, and they track you as you walk around picking stuff up, and you just walk out and get charged.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by mark-t ( 151149 )
            You want to explain how that works for products that aren't sold individually, but by weight?

            • There are scales built into the shelves that hold the produce, so when you pick it up, they know how much it weighed.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Cyberax ( 705495 )

      This is fine for items in boxes or cans, but grocery stores have lots of items that are priced by weight.

      In many countries customers themselves weigh the food and print price stickers.

      • In most of Europe customers weigh and label produce themselves. Since many people worked in shops as a teenager, this works well and in any case an electronic scale isnâ(TM)t rocket science.
      • in the US, produce items usually have a code number or barcode sticker on them and the scale for the official weighing is at the register.
    • My guess is that synopsis is incorrect and this is not Amazon Go, but rather the Amazon Dash carts which they have at an Amazon Fresh near me. You scan a QR code on a cart and as you place items in the cart it scans the barcode of the item and weighs it. For produce you just enter the product code on a touchscreen and place the produce in the cart where it's weighed. Cheeses and other deli items are sold only prepackaged in known weights. It actually works really well and walking the cart through the e

    • The produce section would have to change from selling apples by the pound to pricing per item.

      Or people could just weigh their own shit as is common in Europe. Hell if you take a grocery item to a checkout in Austria and you didn't weigh it and print out a barcode for it the cashier will send you off for a walk of shame while the other people in line will hurl abuse at you for your transgression.

      No reason that can't be applied to a NFC instead of a barcode.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by cusco ( 717999 )

      We live a few blocks from the first of the Amazon Fresh stores (supermarket-sized versions of the Go stores), which already have this technology and the palm scanners. Apples, bananas, etc. **are** in fact sold by price each rather than pound, they apparently order consistently-sized produce as much as possible. I haven't bought anything from the deli counter, but there's a palm scanner there so I assume the personnel there would prepare the item, scan it, and then you would read your palm to add the item

    • This is not as big a deal as you think. When you buy groceries from, say, Amazon fresh, everything is already priced per item and I for one am completely used to it by now after getting most of my groceries online for over a year. Going to a "real" grocery store is almost strange to me now - I won't know how much the apples will cost until at the register?

      There's no particular reason that one set of chicken drumsticks has to be 2.89 and the next one 2.94 when it'd be more convenient for everyone involved to

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by mjwx ( 966435 )

      This is fine for items in boxes or cans, but grocery stores have lots of items that are priced by weight. The produce section would have to change from selling apples by the pound to pricing per item. Many items like cheese and packaged meat are also by weight which can only be determined if the cameras are able to read the label where it says how much each individual package costs.

      Well, if they're rolling it out, they've obviously found a way to deal with those issues, but it will be interesting to see how it goes.

      It will probably work in the same way as "scan and go" systems here in the UK where you can weigh items at a station, in the UK this station is at the checkout area but nothing is stopping them from putting one in the fruit and veg area aside from tradition.

      I do agree that this is largely a solution looking for a problem. And I say that as someone who loves self service check outs, with the new trolley sized ones I only go to a manned checkout if I'm buying booze, even then I'll still do self service if

  • I can imagine all sorts pf problems as people do what they do in unexpected ways. I can also imagine lots of creative ideas for pranks, vandalism and theft

    • I guess that's why they are only opening 2 additional locations.

      Working through the issues and edge cases in different geographic locations.

      I doubt that this is meant to be a sweeping replacement for all retail scenarios.

      I am guessing that this is more along the lines of proving the technology in order to sell it to markets where it would make sense.

      • I am guessing that this is more along the lines of proving the technology in order to sell it to markets where it would make sense.

        It will have to be explicitly banned by the Japanese parliament or the bloodbath in retail will be catastrophic. Japan is the one culture on Earth where this technology can be deployed to the entire country overnight. They're already the country with more vending machines, and more things sold by vending machines, than anywhere else. Once Amazon starts selling this equipment to third parties, there won't be a retail employee left in Japan inside 5 years outside of street vendors. Every store with a door

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Kazymyr ( 190114 )

      For instance, what happens if you pick something from a shelf, put it in your basket or bag, go on shopping but then before leaving you decide you don't want that item after all and go put it back on the shelf. I predict many people getting billed for items they didn't get out of the store. And good luck proving afterwards that you didn't.

      • If the engineers/designers of the system had not thought of this scenario already, I would be shocked.

        I am thinking that the system can probably handle most common scenarios like this.

        I am wondering what would happen if two people pick up items off the shelf then toss the items into each other's cart/basket. Would each person be billed for the item that is in their basket or the item that they picked up?

        But, yes, I think there will be situations where people are billed incorrectly.

        Part of the system will ha

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by cusco ( 717999 )

          When the first Amazon Go store opened here in Seattle it was initially Amazonians-only. Working in security of course my co-irkers decided to try to rip the store off. (Of course management assumed this was going to happen.) In three weeks of working separately or together they never managed to get anything free, or be overcharged. We were all extremely impressed.

      • In several cases, I have been billed incorrectly with a human running the cash register. I have also arrived at home missing a bag or items because the bag boy didn't put the bag in my cart. I would venture to guess this system will be more accurate than a human checkout. However, unless it means less work for me, I'll be expecting a discount.

  • Will these "cashierless" stores be in black neighborhoods? [youtu.be]

  • Now they watch what you pick up and put in your cart? Fuck that and it's not getting better.

    • Now? You think CCTV was invented yesterday? Never mind loss prevention following you around.

    • When I worked in a grocery store, some thirty plus years ago, we had an entire team dedicated to watching the cameras and/or sitting at the upper office windows watching the floor. You've been watched placing items in your cart for at least that long.

  • Drop your shit in someone else's bag or cart, then steal it back outside the store after they've paid for it and got past store security.
  • Where I live, people will come in from a gang and ten people will create confusion while one person steals things. How does this system defend against that?
    • The sentry robot with the shotgun will handle that.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by cusco ( 717999 )

      Probably the same way that Safeway does, prohibit repeat offenders from entering. If you're an asshole they aren't required to let you in.

      At the Amazon Fresh stores you don't get in unless you scan your palm and the turnstile recognizes your account, the Go stores require you to scan the app on your phone. Systems to track cell phones within the premises are not expensive any more (they're deployed in most of the more expensive malls). You were associated with the mob that ripped the store off last week,

      • It puzzles me why people think that Amazon wouldn't bother to consider the same stuff that every other retail outlet already has to deal with.

        Because the Silly Valley companies are notoriously impractical any time they venture into territory outside the Internet and especially when they try to do retail. Even Amazon's very large physical footprint has been entirely closed to the public for the vast majority of their existence. Given the track record of the FAANG companies (and the bit players are even worse), you can hardly blame us for being a wee bit skeptical.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by cusco ( 717999 )

          Ah, but we're not Silicon Valley or a venture-capital-funded startup. This is Seattle, home of not only Amazon but Microsoft and Starbucks. I suppose people forget that.

  • Forget about scanning things in, what about verification of the transaction before you leave? If were using a service like this, I would want to see what the transaction is, what items are included, and how much my credit card is going to be charged when I walk out the door - and have a way to refuse the transaction, resolve discrepancies if possible, or even start over if necessary.

    • Forget about scanning things in, what about verification of the transaction before you leave? If were using a service like this, I would want to see what the transaction is, what items are included, and how much my credit card is going to be charged when I walk out the door - and have a way to refuse the transaction, resolve discrepancies if possible, or even start over if necessary.

      This is a solved problem, in the real world. Some of you people seem to be living in the dark ages or something, as if these type of services do not exist.

      The easiest example one can think of is toll, usage. You pass a toll, a camera scans your car plate (or a transmitter as we use in Florida), then we get billed. We can see the charges and dispute them if we need to, etc.

      I usually don't get receipts when I purchase and scan things myself at say, Home Depot's self-serve registers. I get e-receipts, whic

      • an toll fixed rate per Vehicle Classification and Number of Axles

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by butlerm ( 3112 )

        All the people who don't care what their grocery bill is or whether it is accurate can walk out the door without checking anything. In the real world I think people care whether they are about to buy $100 or $200 worth of groceries. And you can just imagine the video review process if there is a dispute.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by cusco ( 717999 )

        I think you're exactly right. The Amazon Go stores use a phone app, the Amazon Fresh stores use the palm scanners. Don't know which way they'll go with Whole Foods (or if there's some newer development in the wings), but stupid people don't last long at Amazon.

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