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EU

Digital Vaccination Cards Go Into Effect in Europe, With Some Turbulence. (nytimes.com) 119

Posted by msmash from the moving-forward dept.
Digital Covid-19 certificates aimed at facilitating free movement in the European Union came into force across the bloc on Thursday, a long-awaited milestone for countries hoping to boost their ailing tourism industries. From a report: Free movement is a key pillar of European integration, and E.U. officials said last month that the certificates would "again enable citizens to enjoy this most tangible and cherished of E.U. rights." Through a Q.R. code issued by their country of residence, certificate holders will be able to show that they have been either fully vaccinated, tested negative or have immunity after a recent recovery. That will exempt them from most travel or quarantine restrictions.

Many European governments have already eased such rules, and each member nation can still revive protective measures if a country's health situation deteriorates. Germany, for instance, has imposed restrictions on travelers coming from Portugal, which has faced a surge of new cases driven by the spread of the Delta variant. While countries have agreed that national health authorities will issue the certificates -- most E.U. countries have already been doing so -- they are divided over who should check them, where and when.
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Digital Vaccination Cards Go Into Effect in Europe, With Some Turbulence. More

Digital Vaccination Cards Go Into Effect in Europe, With Some Turbulence.

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  • Three Huzzahs for the shitty NY Times paywall!!!

  • Free movement is a key pillar of European integration, and E.U. officials said last month that the certificates would "again enable citizens to enjoy this most tangible and cherished of E.U. rights."

    And that country that left the EU?

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Well they don't have any EU rights to begin with anymore. Much to the annoyance of the government they found it most unreasonable that they weren't allowed to keep all the benefits of the EU while getting rid of the bits they didn't want.

      • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Well they don't have any EU rights to begin with anymore. Much to the annoyance of the government they found it most unreasonable that they weren't allowed to keep all the benefits of the EU while getting rid of the bits they didn't want.

        This is not complicated. You leave the golf club, stop paying the dues but keep all the benefits of being a golf club member. You don't pay any taxes but continue to enjoy taxpayer funded infrastructure and services. In effect you have your cake and eat it. Why is this simple concept so unreasonable?

        Respectfully
        Boris Johnson

    • No such guarantee - individual EU members can set their own policies regarding travel to the UK. France has us on their 'amber list.' It means 'dirty plague pit, quarantine mandatory.' They also don't recognize our own vaccination certification program.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Rei ( 128717 )

        Well, France itself will be back to growth soon enough, if not already (7-day trailing new case averages over the past 5 days: 1816, 1819, 1834, 1854, 1948; yesterday's case count: 2664). And the fact that you're one of the most antivax major countries (with even a higher percentage of antivaxxers than the US) doesn't bode well.

        • The UK's vaccination program is really a resounding success. About 35 million vaccinated both doses now. I feel there is politics in play - Bozo the Clown was negotiating with Angela Merkel just yesterday about what it would take to relax travel restrictions.

        • France is not anti vax, they are all about complaining. When there was no masks available, they all wa'ted to wear masks. As son as government secured supply and told to wear them, they were protesting in order to get rid of the mask wearing obligations. As soon as the government says that vaccine is useless and not recommended, they will run to vaccination centers!
  • Prediction: Fake Vax IDs on ebay within 24 hours, banned in another 24, moved to darkweb, easily available.

    • Prediction: Fake Vax IDs on ebay within 24 hours, banned in another 24, moved to darkweb, easily available.

      Why? Without a vaccination all you need is a negative test and people are getting those for free by their own governments? Where's the profit incentive. Sure if you test positive you may want to be a shitstain on society and get a fake negative test, but just remember you run the very real risk of being arrested https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/... [dutchnews.nl].

      Also dark web hides the place of business. You still need to get a certificate to someone, and that is fairly easy to track, and people are being constantly arreste

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gr8dude ( 832945 )

      I don't think your prediction is reasonable, because the certificates are digitally signed.

      The electronic signature is easy to verify, so the forgery is trivial to detect. As long as the respective institutions do a good job at protecting their private key, that is. If the key is compromised, the signer's certificate can be revoked using standard procedures in PKI (e.g., CMP - a protocol for certificate management, OCSP - another protocol for verifying whether a certificate has been revoked or not).

      If you h

  • most cherished of rights? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by iggymanz ( 596061 ) on Thursday July 01, 2021 @09:57PM (#61542528)

    it's not a right if you need a digital thing to exercise it.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      So you don't have a right to travel between two countries if you need a passport?

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by Bert64 ( 520050 )

        Which within the EU, at least the shengen states you didn't. You could simply walk or drive across the border without even slowing down.

        • Re: most cherished of rights? (Score:4, Informative)

          by Kopp ( 602770 ) on Thursday July 01, 2021 @11:30PM (#61542690)
          The fact that there are no systematic border controls does not mean you don't need a passport or identity card to travel between EU countries... And free movement does not mean no border control either
          • You need a form of identification so that you can prove your identity, not so you can travel.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            Actually it does, you don't need a passport of identity card to travel through Schengen countries if you are an EU national.

            https://europa.eu/youreurope/c... [europa.eu]

            Individual countries can require you to carry an ID card, but only on a non-discriminatory basis i.e. everyone, citizens and visitors alike have to have the same rules.

          • Actually that is precisely what the Schengen agreement means: you don't need an ID to travel between countries. You may need to carry a form of ID because the countries your're travelling to/from generally require that, but you will not need it to cross the border.

            That can lead to funny constellations. When travelling between Switzerland (which is a Schengen member, but not in the EU customs union) and the EU by car, customs will check you fairly regularly, but if you don't carry excess goods, you will /n

            • And how do you prove you are an EU national without travel document? Many countries do have border controls for intra Schengen flights, or intra Schengen bus routes,but sure, next time they ask I'll tell them i don't need a document. I'm sure it's gon'a go well

              • Air travel is different - many countries even require an ID for domestic flights. As for coach routes, the ECJ has ruled it illegal for countries to require operators to carry out routine passport checks on Schengen routes (see here [europa.eu]). But operators can of course require an ID as part of their T&Cs.

                • That does not answer how to prove that you're an EU national. In practice, you will need documents. As for coach routes, I experienced controls by border control in several trips (nothing like an angry border control guy speaking foreign language waking you up to see your documents to make your night bus trip great :D ) As for road border checks, I'm not really sure which one involved actuals checks but it might have been between EU but non Schengen countries... But it is true that most of the borders cross

                  • The very point is that you don't have to prove it. With the Schengen arrangement, countries have gone from an untrusted-by-default (everyone's ID is checked every time, on principle) to a trusted-by-default (ID checks are the exception) policy. People rarely appreciate just how much of a paradigm shift that is among independent nations.

                    Schengen is, in essence, a common visa zone. If you are presently inside the Schengen territory, you are assumed to have some sort of legal status. Whether that status enti

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Depends on your legal frame work and country.

        In the united states, for instance, rights are things people have that the government takes away.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dryeo ( 100693 )

          Yet, without the government, there would be others taking them away. Look at Mexico with its weak government in areas. Exercise your right to speech in a way that the local drug lord disagrees with and you are likely to end up dead.

      • Re:most cherished of rights? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Friday July 02, 2021 @01:52AM (#61542856) Journal

        Rights (as a legal construct) are, by definition, things that are granted by governments

        Here's a big "hell no" to that theory of law.

        • In practice without a government *branch* to uphold your right, you have none. You need an executive and a legislative, and a law enforcement. If one of those leg is missing, (no cop, no government, no judge, no higher court to strike laws) then in practice your right can at some point be trampled :
          * no cop ? How do you enforce laws or find and punish those who broke it ?
          * no judge/higher court ? How do you fairly execute judgement and/or strike unconstitutional laws (note I did not say unjust) ?
          * no gov

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            That's what asylum is for. If a government doesn't uphold your human rights you can go somewhere that does.

            That's what they mean by natural rights, things that even if your government can legally do to you are grounds to appeal to other governments for protection. Rights that transcend national laws.

            • Except that is not how it works. The "right" does not transcend anything. If the country you go seek asylum in does not explicitly recognize that right and back it by force, you still won't get the right you consider natural.

              And if they allow you to appeal for protection, it is not because they see anything "transcending" anything; it is because they recognize the right and back it by force.

              There are no rights that transcend national laws. Each and every right you have is backed by government force.

          • In practice without a government *branch* to uphold your right, you have none. You need an executive and a legislative, and a law enforcement.

            Well, we DO have guns.

            That helps a bit....an armed society is a polite society.

            • Re: (Score:1)

              by dryeo ( 100693 )

              Then why are Americans so impolite?

              • Then why are Americans so impolite?

                You're talking about the ones from gun free zones/states....like CA, NY, NJ...etc.

                People are quite polite down here.

                • Re: (Score:2)

                  by dryeo ( 100693 )

                  The southerners usually seem the most impolite, perhaps because we're so polite in Canada that we don't need to be armed and as soon as they don't have to worry about being shot for being impolite, they revert. Perhaps if I was back east and met more NYer's and such, I'd have a different impression.

          • Do you have a computer because your computer has a firewall? Do you have a home or car because they are insured? No, you get insurance because you have a home or car, and a firewall because you have a computer.

            In other words, you don't have a thing because it is protected, you protect a thing because you have it and want to keep it. Just because you would have to use force on a consistent basis to protect your rights were government not there does not mean you wouldn't have them.

          • Some folk keep harping on rights being a natural thing not needing government and so forth. This is really stupid. Without any of the above 3 points, you have in practicality NO rights.

            Without other people taking them away, you have all rights. I will turn your own words back on you, and say that you "are really stupid." That is a quote from you.

      • The classic enlightenment view is that there are inalienable rights. Is movement between countries one of them? If you asked most people, though, the list of what they consider inalienable rights would probably be shorter than Paine's. I expect I'd be supporting Paine.

        • Would one inalienable right be "not get infected by lethal disease by travelers"?

          If not, why not? Why do the travelers have more rights than those they kill?

          • Would one inalienable right be "not get infected by lethal disease by travelers"?

            If not, why not? Why do the travelers have more rights than those they kill?

            If you yourself are vaccinated, then what are you worry8ing about?

            Trust the science...you are protected and won't die.

            The non-vaxxed are the ones that have the problem.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by dryeo ( 100693 )

              Vaccination is not perfect and there are a lot of places where vaccination rates are still low, through no fault of those eager to be vaccinated.
              Here, it is not even a 3rd who are fully vaccinated yet for example.
              You being healthy and in a place with high vaccination rates are pretty safe but even then if you had a grandma in the cancer ward that you wanted to visit, wearing a mask might be a good idea for the safety of those in the cancer ward.

              • Vaccination is not perfect and there are a lot of places where vaccination rates are still low, through no fault of those eager to be vaccinated.

                Wow...where do you live?

                My state is having to send back allotments as that there is more vaccine than demand...sadly, we do have a lot of hesitancy here, but that's their problem.

                You being healthy and in a place with high vaccination rates are pretty safe but even then if you had a grandma in the cancer ward that you wanted to visit, wearing a mask might be a goo

                • Re: (Score:2)

                  by dryeo ( 100693 )

                  I'm in BC, Canada. Canada as a whole is vaccinating about half a million a day now but it was a slow start and the government took the course of trying to get one shot in everyone before going back to the 2nd shots, a decision that seems good judging by the numbers. I got vaccinated as quick as possible,same with 2nd shot, tomorrow I'm considered fully vaccinated. My Son missed out on his 2nd dose last week as things shutdown due to the 44C (115F) temperatures, so Sunday for his 2nd shot and another 2 weeks

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        In this case the issue is balancing rights. One person's right to live in relative safety, free from life threatening disease, verses another person's right to travel. It's the old "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose" thing.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dryeo ( 100693 )

          In case you haven't noticed, the extreme view of too many is that it is your fault for not protecting your face when someone exercises their more important right to swing their fist.

      • Rights (as a legal construct) are, by definition, things that are granted by governments,

        Thank goodness that's not how rights are defined int eh US by our constitution.

        We start with the ideal that you are born with ALL rights and that our governments have limited, enumerated powers to set laws and regulations to ensure your rights are protected. Yes, some things are against the law like muder, rape, etc....but the bottom line is, the govt. does NOT grant you your rights, you are born with them.

      • Re:most cherished of rights? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by sabbede ( 2678435 ) on Friday July 02, 2021 @09:48AM (#61543666)
        We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

        No, rights are not granted by governments. Governments exist to protect rights, not provide them. Constitutions (in the American model) are contracts that protect rights from infringement by governments, not to define and provide rights.

        Whether you want to say that rights are directly endowed by God, or inherent to rational and moral beings with free will, they exist before, apart from, and without government. Governments are simply a mechanism for the People to design and enforce the rules and structures that protect their rights.

      • Rights (as a legal construct) are, by definition, things that are granted by governments

        Wth? I really hope you kept your receipt from that public school education, because everything in that statement is wrong. Quite the opposite, actually; rights are things that government not only doesn't grant, but cannot take away. For instance, I have the right to bear arms whether or not there's a 2A.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by xonen ( 774419 )

      A year ago i was more skeptical to this than now. I still am, for the obvious reasons, yet i do not have much problems for it.

      First of all, international traveling. When crossing a border, we consider it quite normal to obey the laws of (both) countries, for example not smuggling illicit substances or with the purpose of tax evasion, and along the same line transporting a virus is something governments are entirely entitled to handle as they see fit.

      From a more practical stance, of all things we had so far,

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gr8dude ( 832945 )

      The certificate can be printed on paper. It contains a QR code which holds digitally signed data about the person, the vaccine and some other metadata.

      One can read the code off the paper using specialized software, verify the signature and make a pass/reject decision. You don't need any digital thing for it to work, as a traveler. The institutions need to have an infrastructure and legislation that stipulates how electronic digital signatures are used - the EU has had this for ~2 decades now.

  • And that's exactly what this boils down to. The concept of free travel means exactly that - you are free to travel, no need to get pre-clearance or any other sort of permission or documentation.

    You don't protect a cherished right by making it a restricted privilege. That's the opposite of a right.

    • It's not that I like any kind of restriction on travel, but until covid hasn't gone away, the alternative to EU's covid certificates isn't free travel, it's locked-down borders. You're looking from the wrong perspective.
      • Also, covid certificates are no "government permission". Anyone can acquire them, e.g. by getting a negative test, and governments have no say in the process.
        • Who provides the certificates? Who checks the certificate and decides whether or not you are allowed to exercise your pre-existing right to free travel?
      • Which I see as a separate question. My criticism is that they are entirely full of it when they claim restricting a right is protecting it. That is Orwellian doublespeak.

  • They remove border checks between EU states... But now it turns out that was a good idea all along, and people actually died because some creeps wanted to rule *all* of Europe with the same rule, sensible or not.

    As I always said: Globalism is just nationalism with nowhere to run. Meaning, if it becomes totalitarian, which is to be expected, you are *fucked*. (Imagine if Einstein could not have fled to the USA.)

    Instead we could just cooperate the normal way, wherever it actually *is* sensible. Instead of thi

    • Countries in the Schengen area (not the whole EU) have suspended border checks, but can reinstate them in case of necessity, and they have done so many times, even before covid.

      There can't be a same rule over all of Europe, because the scope of the EU is explicitly limited and cannot be extended. So they can regulate the shape of the power sockets, but can't regulate about how a country should help the poor and so on.

      There is no possibility for a country to be sucked into a hypothetical totalitarian EU, be

  • german pronunciation "ausweis bitte"
  • How come we can't have that here. Where is my right to prove that I am vaccinated?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
      Well for that, you'll have to ask the relevant legislature where ever you reside, but I agree once you are partly or fully vaccinated you should have a right to relatively easily and securely prove that you are to anyone which a need know ( this might include staff at venues that might have different policies ( mask requirements , distancing etc) foe vaccinated and unvaccinated guests).
  • Yeah, I've heard that nowadays almost everywhere is needed vaccination, but it is not a barrier for travelling. Some countries are opened if you already get vaccinated. As for me, I don't want to spend my summer at home and I want to travel. I've chosen this thailand itinerary [karambol.io], I think that it would be great to visit this country.

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