Amazon Sellers Say They Were Kicked Off Site After Unknowingly Hawking Stolen Goods (cnbc.com) 96
Of the many acts that can get an Amazon merchant kicked off the site, few are as devastating as selling stolen goods. Amazon calls the behavior "illegal and strictly prohibited," and those accused of such activity can be permanently suspended. From a report: Dozens of small businesses have been booted from Amazon in recent months for purportedly hawking stolen goods from home appliance brands such as Breville, Keurig, Levoit and SharkNinja. But suspended sellers, who spent years building their businesses on Amazon, told CNBC they had no idea they were selling stolen products.
Amazon has provided limited evidence to back up its claims, sellers said, leaving them scrambling to find the problematic merchandise. To try to get reinstated and save their million-dollar business from potential collapse, they've taken it upon themselves to discover if they unsuspectingly bought stolen goods from one of the many wholesalers, closeout businesses and distributors that supply their Amazon inventory.
Amazon's marketplace of independent sellers accounts for over 60% of goods sold on the platform. It's such a dominant force in e-commerce that it's often the primary or even sole source of revenue for third-party sellers. Over the past decade, the rapid growth of the marketplace has fueled a parallel boom in counterfeiters and spammers trying to game the system, pushing Amazon to ramp up enforcement.
Amazon has provided limited evidence to back up its claims, sellers said, leaving them scrambling to find the problematic merchandise. To try to get reinstated and save their million-dollar business from potential collapse, they've taken it upon themselves to discover if they unsuspectingly bought stolen goods from one of the many wholesalers, closeout businesses and distributors that supply their Amazon inventory.
Amazon's marketplace of independent sellers accounts for over 60% of goods sold on the platform. It's such a dominant force in e-commerce that it's often the primary or even sole source of revenue for third-party sellers. Over the past decade, the rapid growth of the marketplace has fueled a parallel boom in counterfeiters and spammers trying to game the system, pushing Amazon to ramp up enforcement.
Marketplace is a disaster (Score:5, Insightful)
Amazon was a well trusted retailer. You knew who you were buying from, what their policies were, and that they were (mostly) above board. Marketplace has turned it into a Wild West, and destroyed all my trust in it. No amount of fucking over the sellers when they get scammed too is going to fix it. If they wanted a place where anyone could hawk anything easily, they should have created a separate brand, and a separate place where I could go with all the expectations that sellers there were only as trusted as random ass web pages.
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they should have created a separate brand, and a separate place where I could go with all the expectations that sellers there were only as trusted as random ass web pages.
Sounds like you are describing Aliexpress.
Re:Marketplace is a disaster (Score:5, Insightful)
they should have created a separate brand, and a separate place where I could go with all the expectations that sellers there were only as trusted as random ass web pages.
Sounds like you are describing Aliexpress.
These days Amazon is basically Aliexpress with higher prices and faster shipping.
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they should have created a separate brand, and a separate place where I could go with all the expectations that sellers there were only as trusted as random ass web pages.
Sounds like you are describing Aliexpress.
These days Amazon is basically Aliexpress with higher prices and faster shipping.
Yea, that's for sure. I use AliExpress for some items simply because they are a lot cheaper; I've had generally good results but then my expectations are reasonable. I don't expect a 3 Euro watch band for an Apple Watch to match Apple's; but with rare exceptions they have been fine even if I can tell some differences in construction.
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Yea, that's for sure. I use AliExpress for some items simply because they are a lot cheaper
That mindset is what created this monster to begin with. Buy the cheaper item - nothing else matters but the retail price!
*looks at current capitalist dystopia*
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Why not buy something that meets your needs?
Why insist on paying the "brand premium" for the privilege of lining Apple's shareholders pockets?
"Good enough" is just that - meets requirements. A Toyota Corolla is "good enough" - why spend much more for a Rolls Royce?
Depends on someone's definition of "good enough." "Good enough" for me may not be for thee...
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These days Amazon is basically Aliexpress with higher prices and faster shipping.
Not much faster.
A lot of stuff gets shipped from China after you click "buy" and takes just as long to arrive.
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These days Amazon is basically Aliexpress with higher prices and faster shipping.
Not much faster.
A lot of stuff gets shipped from China after you click "buy" and takes just as long to arrive.
I usually avoid anything not shipped by Amazon if I'm shopping there. If it's third party, and I suspect it's from China, I will either find another seller with US stock at Amazon or go on AliExpress and get it there.
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>Sounds like you are describing Aliexpress.
I see no reason to pay someone else to buy from Aliexpress for me. Every time I want to buy electronics, I look at all my local retailers and find A) it's expensive B) it's not in stock, they'll order it for me and C) it's the same thing I can order directly from China.
Even things like a bag of RJ45 connectors or breadboard jumper wires - If I'm willing to wait a month to have them mailed from China, I can usually get it at a third to half the price. For the s
Far from perfect but more capable than you (Score:2)
it's the same thing I can order directly from China.
No it's not. Some distribution channels actually validate the manufacturer. Did they build to specification or did they make substitutions that compromise the product? Is there an IP violation? Is there a chain of custody authenticating ownership of units for sale?
As an individual you have none of this. Amazon can provide some of this. Going to the store presence of the actual maker of a product on Amazon and you get additional protections.
Amazon can be "evil" but it's foolish to think they offer an i
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Amazon is Aliexpress with a domestic markup.
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Re: Marketplace is a disaster (Score:2)
Just have a clear separation of Amazon and Amazon Marketplace on the site, or at least allow to filter what appears in the search results
Though, one thong that does annoy me is how many irrelevant results appear in search results, due to sponsored items.
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You make some interesting wardrobe choices.
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You make some interesting wardrobe choices.
Apparently I’m being pointed to try something different? There are days autocorrect is challenging enough to make want to heck into the crazy house.
They identify seller (Score:2)
If they wanted a place where anyone could hawk anything easily, they should have created a separate brand, and a separate place where I could go with all the expectations that sellers there were only as trusted as random ass web pages.
They identify seller and shipper. You know if Amazon is selling it or not.
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I can tell you first-hand that the "identify seller" portion of Amazon is a load of bullshit. Ive tracked sellers of a particular brand of products that isn't supposed to be sold on Amazon. All those sellers have completely fictitious addresses.
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I can tell you first-hand that the "identify seller" portion of Amazon is a load of bullshit. Ive tracked sellers of a particular brand of products that isn't supposed to be sold on Amazon. All those sellers have completely fictitious addresses.
I'm only referring to when Amazon is listed as the seller.
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Why not? If they really didn't know they were buying stolen goods, maybe it's because they didn't want to know.
Gray market goods sometimes enter channels (Score:2)
Why not? If they really didn't know they were buying stolen goods, maybe it's because they didn't want to know.
To be fair, Amazon does need to act with some reasonableness. Gray market stuff does sometimes enter real distribution channels. Even the Pentagon occasionally finds problems with the authenticity of parts. Yes, this generally involves someone in the channel acting criminally or neglgently. It might be the middle man's fault not the retailer's fault.
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You mean black market.
Grey market goods are goods that are authentic, just not meant to be sold in the market it was sold at. So if I make a product to be sold
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they should have created a separate brand, and a separate place where I could go with all the expectations that sellers there were only as trusted as random ass web pages.
...and you wouldn't have gone there. Right?
just change the headline (Score:2)
Perhaps we could simply re-write the headlines,
"Fences claim to be surprised they were selling stolen goods!" :)
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Same thing happened when Walmart started letting any damn seller hawk crap via the Walmart website.
Have learned... if it doesn't say "Sold by Walmart" it's probably either a scam or junk, and there is no warranty.
How Amazon should handle this (Score:1)
Amazon and similar sites should have an "innocent merchant" plan for truly innocent merchants who are cooperating with authorities.
This should include an education component to help the merchants from falling victim again.
Of course, Amazon will have to do some work to prevent "not so innocent" merchants from gaming the system.
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This is going to be abused by competitors, (Score:5, Insightful)
likely manufacturers as well. Amazon rewards cutthroat behavior by sellers. The odds are quite high that the people reporting sellers for selling stolen goods are competing Amazon sellers, likely even manufacturers, attempting to get third party sellers excluded from the market. Looks like just faking reviews and making false complaints got moved to the B tier
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The odds are quite high that the people reporting sellers for selling stolen goods are competing Amazon sellers
Odds are quite high that these "dozens" of assholes are selling goods of questionable origin, just like most of the counterfeiters and other unscrupulous sellers on the market place. Amazon doesn't need shilling. Their business practices earned them the reputation they have.
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Do you know where all those retail shoplifting mobs out in sunny California dump their merch?
Face to face. Ie a guy approaches you while you pump gas, been there, not done that.
EBay.
Craigs List
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Re: This is going to be abused by competitors, (Score:1)
Now get rid of the ones who do it on purpose (Score:2)
That's not really the place to start, but it's better to start somewhere. Now they need to get rid of the ones who do it on purpose.
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Trust me. Amazon has no interest in doing that. I know a particular brand that has been fighting to keep their products off Amazon to no avail. Funny enough, the company doesn't even know how theyre even getting on Amazon because the public info on these accounts is fake and Amazon isn't willing to give up the info. We're talking about a handful of Amazon sellers, and this brand isn't small.
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Doctrine of First Sale applies. The rightsholder exhausts their rights to control the item after the first sale.
If I buy the items (from a retailer or wholesaler) I can re-sell them on Amazon without needing the approval of the manufacturer.
Unless you have a specific agreement with that manufacturer in return for better pricing.
Too much unverified riff-raff (Score:2)
Normally I'd say let businesses decide who they want to do business with without outside influence. However, being Amazon has a near monopoly, they owe retailers better evidence, since a retailer has few realistic alternatives if they were misjudged.
I also think there should be national business registry of all businesses doing non-trivial cross-border trade. They'd be required to provide proof of ownership and citizenship of given country (personal ID). It's kind of a like a trade passport for businesses.
No excuses. (Score:4, Insightful)
If you're selling stolen goods, you're selling stolen goods. If you don't perform your due diligence as a retailer then you don't belong alongside legitimate businesses. Doesn't matter if you're Amazon or a Mom & Pop store. Simply being in possession of stolen property is a crime in most developed nations.
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If you're falsely accused of selling stolen goods, then you are innocent but punished anyway.
There is plenty of incentive to falsely accuse competitors of this crime. How good a job is Amazon doing in investigation prior to sentencing?
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Simply being in possession of stolen property is a crime in most developed nations.
Simple possession is not a crime in most developed nations. Receiving or possessing goods while knowing the were stolen is when it typically becomes a crime.
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Simply being in possession of stolen property is a crime in most developed nations.
Simply possession of stolen property while knowing it's stolen is a crime in most developed nations.
Furthermore, to be convicted of a crime the bar is pretty high, e.g. in the US all elements of the crime has to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt", whereas here the suspect is that Amazon is much less thorough in its investigation to verify whether the allegation is founded.
Re:No excuses. (Score:5, Informative)
And yet, I've gotten "stolen/fraudulent goods" from Amazon warehouses before, and I know others have too.
A good buddy of mine bought a high price photography lens from Amazon, from the manufacturer's store - stocked by Amazon. An $800+ item. What he got was an empty box with a rock in it. This was after he'd been shipped a used/opened item twice. Amazon would not make it right. He's since stopped using Amazon.
I've gotten fake Dre Beats headphones, ordered from the official store on Amazon. Stocked by Amazon. I've heard of similar "stocked by Amazon, sold by x" stories where people have gotten fake products, as well.
Amazon doesn't fix these problems, but they'll hang out their sellers on an accusation without proof... fantastic.
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I've had Amazon substitute knock offs (Score:2)
And yet, I've gotten "stolen/fraudulent goods" from Amazon warehouses before, and I know others have too.
I've had Amazon make "substitutions". I ordered an authentic US issue poncho liner for camping. It would take 3 weeks for this vendor with a track record of shipping genuine goods to get it to me. 3 days after ordering I get a notice that the order is being delivered. It turns out Amazon made a substation with a similar product they already had in inventory at their distribution center. Of course what they considered similar was a cheap Chinese knock-off.
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This sounds suspiciously like the Amazon commingled SKU problem. If multiple sellers declare that their product has the same SKU, Amazon treats their inventory as the same, and will ship from whatever location is cheaper:
https://www.redpoints.com/blog... [redpoints.com]
The problem is, this means that bad actors can copy an existing SKU, ship their knockoff crap to Amazon, and have Amazon basically launder their counterfeit goods. Buyers would never know unless they had a real one to compare against, and the legit sellers
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Sorry, this was the reference URL:
https://feedvisor.com/universi... [feedvisor.com]
In other words, this arrangement mainly benefits Amazon. As the customer/seller, you're potentially vulnerable to things like counterfeits, or goods that are near/past their expiry date.
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I've even gotten problematic goods that were both shipped from and sold by amazon.com. I didn't actually discover the illegitimate origins of the product until well after a year from the time of purchase when I filed a warranty claim with the manufacturer. (The device had a 2 year warranty from the manufacturer.) The manufacturer looked up the serial number and said that they didn't ship that device to an Amazon warehouse and Amazon wasn't even an authorized distributor of their products.
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Fraudulent items are a very different category from stolen items. Both are wrong and illegal of course, but not the same.
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A good buddy of mine bought a high price photography lens from Amazon, from the manufacturer's store - stocked by Amazon. An $800+ item. What he got was an empty box with a rock in it.
That isn't receiving a stolen item, that is the result of return fraud or a sticky-fingered package handler.
I've gotten fake Dre Beats headphones, ordered from the official store on Amazon
The Wizard casts Doubt. It is Super Effective!
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If you're selling stolen goods, you're selling stolen goods. If you don't perform your due diligence as a retailer then you don't belong alongside legitimate businesses. Doesn't matter if you're Amazon or a Mom & Pop store. Simply being in possession of stolen property is a crime in most developed nations.
Sometimes gray/black market goods enter legit distribution channels. The criminality or negligence may be at middleman not the retailer. Even the Pentagon with their massive paper trails get burned by fraudulent parts. If the retailer has paperwork from a "legit" supplier they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Unknown small company on aliexpress is not what I would consider "legit".
Re:No excuses. (Score:5, Interesting)
"being in possession of stolen property"
Another seller sends in stolen items to the Amazon warehouse with the same SKU as I am selling. Amazon puts them in the same bin. Someone orders from me and they pick the stolen instance out of the bin. Was I in ever in possession of the stolen items? Is there any way I could have performed "due diligence" on those items?
We know for a fact that fraudulent items have been laundered like this. Why wouldn't someone apply it to stolen goods?
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Amazon provides sellers th
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Not only are there no excuses, but I don't really buy the innocence of these resellers in the first place. These guys likely knew full well they were winking and nodding a bit too much, and had to know the prices they were paying were absurdly low. OF COURSE when a thief gets caught, they're going to say "well I didn't know these items were stolen"!
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If you're selling stolen goods, you're selling stolen goods.
Except it is highly likely they were not. A competitor likely filed a false claim. The same way competitors will write false reviews on the competition to boost their own sales.
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If you're selling stolen goods, you're selling stolen goods. If you don't perform your due diligence as a retailer then you don't belong alongside legitimate businesses. Doesn't matter if you're Amazon or a Mom & Pop store. Simply being in possession of stolen property is a crime in most developed nations.
So should Amazon be shut down as well?*
Due diligence doesn't mean hiring a PI to sniff around. It sounds like at least some of these sellers had fairly good reason to think they were dealing with legitimate suppliers. Some were surely playing dumb, but others were either scammed by organized crime, or were falsely reported by rival sellers.
* It occurs to me the reason that Amazon is being so unreasonable is they're terrified of getting a reputation of a place to fence stolen goods, or getting caught up in l
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Rules for Thee (Score:2)
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Amazon doesn't design their in-house stuff, they just find manufacturers of high quality, low cost items - no different than Walmart does.
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Amazon is vast. Poking at one misbehaviour in one branch a couple of years ago, and declaring that "Amazon" writ large has no problem with it is disingenous.
If a teacher gets caught diddling a student, the board of education is probably not fine with it.
Wait, what? HOW? (Score:2)
Buying from a wholesaler or liquidator (Score:1)
Legitimate businesses buy things from liquidators and wholesalers all the time. Most are legit, but some are not. Even some legit wholesalers and liquidators have the occasional "bad apple" who rips off his employer - and his employer's customers (read: Amazon merchants) in the process.
It's not just Amazon merchants engaged in direct resale, but also those who add value, such as customized-clothing merchants. If I'm a small t-shirt shop I'll buy blank shirts from a hopefully-reputable wholesaler, add my
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Because barely anyone operates a "purchase whole goods from manufacturer, warehouse them and then sell them to consumers" it's a wild morass of middlemen, resellers and 3rd parties.
Online retail has turned from eliminating the number of middlemen to exponentially increasing them. kids today are encoureged to make their own business via "drop shipping on Amazon" which means dfinding some products, making a brand and a logo and then reselling the same crap 40 other people are selling which is all coming out
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Because the core issue is that the people selling the items do not have direct manufacturer relationships which is really the core point.
When you are a drop shipper via Amazon marketplace you are not contracting with the factory because that is obfuscated to a huge degree now. There's multiple layers of separation between those two people. Most resellers have neither the capital, credibility or motivation to establish and maintain that relationship.
You are right about refurbs though and the irony of that i
Resellers (Score:2)
Maybe some have a valid defense but not likely.
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Who has ever bought at OEM pricing? Even the manufacturers don't sell at OEM pricing - unless they're Apple or some other high-end brand which is driven largely by product image (eg. women's handbags) which doesn't allow for 'discounts'.
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If I purchase in bulk direct from an OEM at a discount from MSRP, there will be a clause in the contract forbidding resale at less than MSRP as a reseller. The reason I get the discount is to compensate for the OEM using my distribution network. If I purchase in bulk from a "distributor" at less than MSRP, someone along the line has probably done something they should not have.
Yet the fake merch flows.... (Score:2)
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Obligatory: Stolen or not, the spice [amazon.com] must flow [amazon.com].
I have as much sympathy for them... (Score:2)
as I do for the person who innocently and unknowing buys stolen property, only to see it in turn seized and their money not refunded.
I can't care (Score:2)
Cesspool (Score:2)
What Amazon has become. Up until about 2015 I used Amazon now and then for the convenience. The counterfeits and third party seller crap turned it into a different, but just as useless, version of fleaBay. Amazon is pretty much useless now. Shipping locally and only from manufacturer's web sites is a MUCH better option.
"Unknowingly" (Score:1)
Sure ...,