Inside 'Project Tinman': Peloton's Plan To Conceal Rust In Its Exercise Bikes (arstechnica.com) 89
Dubbed internally as "Project Tinman," executives at Peloton worked to conceal a build-up of rust on some exercise machines (Warning: source may be paywalled; alternative source) that were sent to customers instead of returned to the manufacturer. "The project was first revealed in FT Magazine last week but eight current and former Peloton employees across four US states have provided further details on the operation," reports the Financial Times. Here's an excerpt from the report: They described the plan as a nationwide effort to avoid yet another costly recall just months after the company's most tragic episode -- the death of a child due to the design of its treadmill. Internal documents seen by the FT showed that Tinman's "standard operating procedures" were for corrosion to be dealt with using a chemical solution called "rust converter," which conceals corrosion by reacting "with the rust to form a black layer." Employees said the scheme was called Tinman to avoid terms such as "rust" that executives decided were out of step with Peloton's quality brand.
Insiders were also angered about enacting a plan that they argued cut across Peloton's supposed focus on its users, who are called "members" to evoke a sense that buyers are more than customers and part of a broader community. Tinman also put a spotlight on the company's quality control process versus meeting aggressive sales targets in the search for growth. Peloton said the issue affected at least 6,000 bikes and that 120 staff had undertaken "rigorous testing" on the devices to conclude the rust -- which it described as "cosmetic oxidation" -- had "no impact on a bike's performance, quality, durability, reliability, or the overall member experience."
Insiders were also angered about enacting a plan that they argued cut across Peloton's supposed focus on its users, who are called "members" to evoke a sense that buyers are more than customers and part of a broader community. Tinman also put a spotlight on the company's quality control process versus meeting aggressive sales targets in the search for growth. Peloton said the issue affected at least 6,000 bikes and that 120 staff had undertaken "rigorous testing" on the devices to conclude the rust -- which it described as "cosmetic oxidation" -- had "no impact on a bike's performance, quality, durability, reliability, or the overall member experience."
Hmmm...sounds sinister...but... (Score:5, Insightful)
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The article also attempts to cast rust converter as some sort of snake oil scam, but it has been commonly used on vehicle frames for a long time. It is generally regarded as being superior to the popular pre-emptive treatments.
Yep, dumb story. Rust converter converts, not hide (Score:5, Interesting)
Spraying a little spray paint in there might HIDE rust.
Rust converter does exactly what the name says - converts surface rust into a protective coating. Typically the rust is converted into ferric tannate. Ferric phosphate is also common, and an additional polymer layer can be formed by choosing a solvent mix that dries to a solid.
but... but... but... outrage!?!... =/ (Score:1)
This is a breaking story that almost no one actually cares about. We have corporate-greed-based inflation, an old man in the white house that seems to insist on launching a war that no one here actually wants to support just to bolster his re-election chances (change of guard during active conflicts are rare), orange man just launched his "free speech" based social media platform (so long as you don't badmouth him or the other founders), child tax credits have run out, local covid ordinances are finally sta
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We have corporate-greed-based inflation,
Other nations print money hand over fist when in trouble and experience inflation.
The US experienced it in the 1970s. Nixon, then Ford, then Carter couldn't get it under control. Then Reagan did by crushing the money supply.
Quit listening to an echo chamber desperately trying to protect the elected fools who got us into this situation.
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It wasn't Reagan who crushed the money supply. It was the Fed under Paul Volcker, who was appointed by Carter, though Reagan did re-nominate him.
Re:Yep, dumb story. Rust converter converts, not h (Score:5, Informative)
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I've had experience with both rust converters and pre-emptive chemical treatments. The chemicals work very well and it is always better to prevent than fix. Caution though: there are a number of treatments on the market and your mileage will vary. There is a study from the Canadian DOD that tested four or five of them and they all work but some better than others. We have 14 year old SUV without a spot of rust on it. It's been treated every 3 years.
Actually I lie. no rust in the wheel wells, under
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there are tiny rust spots on the hood where gravel has chipped the paint.
Ceramic coating (either DIY or professional) can help with that. If you DIY then it will need to be re-applied from time to time.
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Ceramic coating (either DIY or professional) can help with that. If you DIY then it will need to be re-applied from time to time.
Ive had good results with this preventative [crcindustries.com]. It’s a wax dissolved in a solvent, it really soaks into any rust, coats well, does not delaminate and trap moisture behind it unlike some other coatings, will not pressure wash off (unless it’s hot steam), won’t chip, and is a tiny bit self healing. It can plug weep holes or get onto surfaces it’s not supposed to like exhaust or rotors but it’s relatively easy to clean off with solvent anytime. It’s great for an undercoat on
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Thanks! Not mentioned in the Defense R&D document above. Always like to know about rust treatments.
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Serious question, how do you get it on the bottom of your vehicle? How do you wash off the bottom of your vehicle? I've been trying to figure these out.
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Serious question, how do you get it on the bottom of your vehicle?
I jack up the vehicle and put it on stands if it’s low, if it’s high like a truck or some trailers you can fit underneath. You don’t need a car lift, but it does make it easier and more comfortable. Then you spray it on, will need breathing and eye protection. - a car takes maybe 2-3 cans while a truck takes maybe 4-5.
How do you wash off the bottom of your vehicle? I've been trying to figure these out.
I have a pressure washer and use a specific undercarriage washer that’s just an extension and a few nozzles. You can also get a hose attachment that works okish.
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Cool thanks.
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"Public" pressure washer places (where you wash your own car) have the jet slightly angled. If you "slide" the washer on the ground, the "upwards" spray will clean the underside. Works just fine on passenger vehicles ("cars") - i.e. not very low to the ground and not very wide.
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It seems as of late the current owners of Slashdot have it confused with an investing blog and they post things that probably are a better fit for Forbes.com. From what I gather, if you bought this company's stonks during the pandemic and expected it to go moon, you are now likely a sad panda.
Since the stock market is for people who aren't living paycheck-to-paycheck, my take on this is Michael_Jackson_popcorn.gif
Re:Hmmm...sounds sinister...but... (Score:5, Interesting)
I bought a NordicTrack treadmill 20 years ago. The steel tubes making up the main assembly are covered in a tough, textured coating (maybe baked on?). Zero rust, at least that I've seen, although granted, it's stayed in my relatively dry TV room all that time.I've been using that treadmill for decades, and I haven't seen anything flaking off, breaking, or wearing out.
But rusting before a device has even been delivered? My feeling is, if they skimped on the quality control here, where else have they cut corners? So, I guess, yeah I'd care a little. Maybe not about the aesthetics, but about overall quality. Will one of these devices last twenty years like my old NordicTrack?
Besides, how long have we been working with steel, as a species? I'm pretty sure we have a good idea of how to prevent rust, if we really want to do so.
Rust is not covered under the warranty, according to the company’s website and interactions with members on social media, because it is up to Peloton owners to wipe down their bikes to prevent sweat from causing corrosion.
Seriously, wtf? You have to wipe down your bike? I dust off my treadmill once or twice a year if I think about it. Hell, I've used it as a temporary clothes drying rack as well on occasion. Is whatever NordicTrack used to cover those steel bars on my treadmill some lost technology or something?
exactly (Score:1)
Re: Hmmm...sounds sinister...but... (Score:5, Informative)
It was on steel beneath the handlebar covers and inside the saddle tube. All the exposed parts seem powder coated.
The world economy is supported by structural steel with cosmetic rust, I personally wouldn't really care.
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You should probably scrape some of that coating off and check. It may be part of a nefarious scheme to conceal rust! I understand it happens in the industry.
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Yes we do know how to prevent rust. The answer is good quality multi-coat paint envelope or better powder coat.
For parts that can't get painted you ship them in oil, wax or something similar. Usually these are things with wearing surfaces and if you want to prevent them from rusting going forward you keep them clean and oiled. Clean is important, dirt/dust/debris can trap moisture and keep the oil off the surfaces where it needs to be.
What generally happens is though is even tough coatings are eventually d
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"But rusting before a device has even been delivered? "
I've seen those "humidity eating" packs (dehumidifiers) in lots of new packaged devices.
Lacking those, humidity could condense in cold conditions (stationary bike packed with summer air, 70% at 25 Celsius will start condensing at +19 Celsius).
So, the device might have been perfect on any kind of quality check at the manufacturer, but rust via improper packing and storage.
There are plenty of steels that are impervious to that level of oxidation (rust res
Re: Hmmm...sounds sinister...but... (Score:1)
Re: Hmmm...sounds sinister...but... (Score:2)
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This.
I worked on a few high-end house construction projects. The other engineers and some contractors working with me had a hard time understanding that you do not approach a multi-million dollar single-family home the same way you approach a build-to-sell speculative condo building. Complaints about quality that were taken seriously included things like an electrical outlet cover ever-so-slightly out of plumb, a quiet 60-Hz electrical
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"a hard time understanding that you do not approach a multi-million dollar single-family home the same way you approach a build-to-sell speculative condo building" ...).
There are people that pay normal price for 99% of the value (functionality, looks,
There are people that pay 10x the price for 99.999% of the value.
And there are people that pay 100x the price for perfection.
There are plenty of good-enough companies and devices at the half price, normal price, double the price. While it might sound ironic, wh
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why do I care?
Short their stock like the people who pushed this press release and then you'll care.
TBH some of these stocks need to be taken to the cleaners. You can't run a sustainable economy on the basis of generating ever increasing quantities of HBS (hype-backed-securities) millionaires. It devalues those who work hard for a living, and eventually you run out of doctors, engineers and nurses, because everyone wants to attach themselves to the Fed's money faucet.
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My favorite story, a recollection as it happened actually, was the week TASER stock went public, suddenly there was a story about them killing people.
"Journalists" failed miserably at their job, with their best heuristic: follow the money.
Was someone looking to hurt an IPO? Depress the price for a buying opportunity?
Nobody knows.
Well, somebody does.
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why do I care? It's a fucking 100+ lb steel exercise bike, which is often stored in basements or garages. It's going to rust. Anyone who owns stationary tools knows this. Big metal things rust over time. So if your bike starts, rusting, someone fixes the rust. Why is this a story? What am I missing?
You are missing that refurbished second-hand bikes were being sold as new ones at full price.
I don't know why you found that difficult to understand.
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They weren't second hand in most cases, they were rusted from the factory. Some were repaired, some were just send to customers as-is.
It's not at all uncommon. Car dealers do it all the time. The vehicle arrives after travelling on a boat and then on the back of a car transporter truck. It's probably been sat in a field somewhere waiting to be delivered too. They patch up any cosmetic issues, give it a clean, replace any parts that were broken, and then give it to the customer.
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They weren't second hand in most cases, they were rusted from the factory. Some were repaired, some were just send to customers as-is.
It's not at all uncommon. Car dealers do it all the time. The vehicle arrives after travelling on a boat and then on the back of a car transporter truck. It's probably been sat in a field somewhere waiting to be delivered too. They patch up any cosmetic issues, give it a clean, replace any parts that were broken, and then give it to the customer.
I withdraw my objection pending further information, in that case.
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Because kids these days are not aware of some basic truths about the world and they get offended when you suggest that may have to maintain some of the stuff they own. They just expect it to be shiny forever with zero effort.
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I think the problem is that they're already "pre-rusted" for the customer.
It's one thing for it to develop rust if kept in a moist room, it's another if it comes from the factory with rust. Most people paying the big bucks for those machines won't put up with a rusty "toy" even if it's only a cosmetic issue.
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> What am I missing?
Venture Capitalists backed an exercise company ("plus Internet, plus subscriptions") which only ever sold to people with bullshit jobs and now that the lockdowns are over the company is going bankrupt in slow motion.
So you're supposed to care.
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why do I care? It's a fucking 100+ lb steel exercise bike, which is often stored in basements or garages. It's going to rust. Anyone who owns stationary tools knows this. Big metal things rust over time. So if your bike starts, rusting, someone fixes the rust. Why is this a story? What am I missing?
They are arriving from the factory with rust, not rusting after use. The issues, as I see it, are:
1. If surface rust is detected on some bikes, what rust my go undetected in areas not easily inspected? Did Peloton do a good engineering analysis to determine their fix addressed all the rust issues?
2. What is seeing up the conditions for the rust to form? Is it poor protection during an ocean transit, material used, design that allows corrosion to occur, or a manufacturing problem? Fixing the rust doesn't
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Is it though? I keep getting told that it's a 110lb premium exercise product that makes you part of an exclusive elite and this worth paying extra money for.
It better be made of fucking unobtainium and not rust for the amount of build shit their marketing team spew.
In the meantime my exercise bike is rusting, but I paid dollars for it, not a kidney and first born which peloton seem to charge.
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Reread the article. This isn't about bikes that rusted after the customer stored them someplace damp, it's about bikes that were rusted before they were ever shipped to a customer.
Sounds like a problem management cluster fuck but (Score:5, Informative)
As far as the rust treatment goes, I have used rust converter chemicals on auto body parts and it stopped corrosion dead on some truck bumpers and rocker panels. Caveat though: the treatment has to be applied properly and cleaned up after. Usually phosphoric acid plus some carcinogenic hydrocarbon liquid for cleaning and tannic acid to do the actual rust conversion. You need to clean up and paint the result as well, or at least I get a good result when I do.
I don't know if I would use the same treatment on something to be installed in a home exercise room.
Re:Sounds like a problem management cluster fuck b (Score:4, Informative)
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Naval jelly? That stuff's been around for decades. Yes, a proper prep and clean up makes a difference, but not all that important: if there isn't any oil or grease on the rusted surfaces, just paint it on and then ignore it. It's somewhat acidic (as mentioned above), so I wouldn't want to have my skin constantly exposed to the treated surfaces: at least wash them with soap and water to just leave the blackened surfaces. Carginogenic? Meh, never heard that. https://www.ehow.com/how_82165... [ehow.com]
Well ... does it work? (Score:2)
Re:Well ... does it work? (Score:4, Informative)
This may be a simple supply chain control and manufacturing issue. How about they install dehumidifiers in the areas where finished parts are being stored for long periods of time? You dont store premium steel components in humid warehouses. Bad idea. There are companies that deliver steel exercise equipment at half the price that dont have this problem.
And this is me giving Peloton the benefit of the doubt. This could be a quality-control issue ; poor surface treatment during manufacturing. Or it’s possible they screwed the pooch on the engineering design side (again). If their design is susceptible to galvanic corrosion, they failed corrosion 101.
I’m going to guess that Peleton’s engineering team is super strong on computer and internet engineering, and kinda weak on the less sexy mechanical, industrial, and materials expertise. Internet 4.0 and viral marketing can’t power the world alone, ya know. At some point, you need to employ people who actually know how to build stuff correctly (and listen to them).
Peloton is under assault and this is a non-story (Score:3)
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If my tesla's biggest issue "under the hood" was structurally insignificant rust, i'd be pretty ecstatic.
The bigger problem under the hood of a tesla is that there is tesla under the hood.
Tesla products are gimmicks first and vehicles second.
And I thought it was the language (Score:5, Funny)
I couldn't understand why anyone we be opposed to programming in RUST for the peloton code. Maybe not my first choice, but nothing wrong with it.
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Count me in. That's the only reason I read THIS story too.
Took it as humor (Score:3, Interesting)
My joke was going to be, do those RUST guys plan to get the language into every object on Earth or what?
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Yes, I was curious about the Rust Converter too! Maybe a solution for those poor souls who try to monetize their Rust games on Steam, because as we all know Steam aggravates Rust!
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Specifically, it's the activist investor group Blackwells Capital that has been pushing the anti-Peloton reports over the last month. They're trying to drive down the stock value intentionally (which they then buy at discount), find someone to buy the company, stock price jumps, they make money.
-- Here's the letter they sent to the board of Peloton: https://www.businesswire.com/n... [businesswire.com]
-- Here's the presentation they release as a hit piece on the CEO: https://www.blackwellscap.com/... [blackwellscap.com]
-- Here's a letter from Col
Pile on! (Score:2)
Ask yourself - who's bought PTON puts recently?
Didn't have a heart. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Sweat on it, store it in a damp basement (Score:2)
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1 dead baby triggered a recall? (Score:2)
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Yeah, people get triggered easily nowadays.
Fraud (Score:2)
Their engineers probably predicted this (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently, Peloton chose to select a cheap alloy that did not contain enough chromium, nickel, or other elements that are well known for their rust-inhibition when they selected the specific steel alloy to use to build their machines. It's basic metallurgy.
Peloton appears to have chosen their own path, and to have ignored decades of corrosion science, and selected a cheap alloy for construction.
Their choice; their consequences.
the fuckers are heavy and strong (Score:2)
Apparently, Peloton chose to select a cheap alloy that did not contain enough chromium, nickel, or other elements that are well known for their rust-inhibition when they selected the specific steel alloy to use to build their machines. It's basic metallurgy.
Peloton appears to have chosen their own path, and to have ignored decades of corrosion science, and selected a cheap alloy for construction.
Their choice; their consequences.
If you've ever owned a Peloton, they get a lot of abuse, especially when you're heavy like me. It feels like professional gym equipment: heavy steel, very stable, little wobble when your sloppy form is swishing from side to side. Don't most of these metals sacrifice strength for corrosion resistance? Regular bikes rust. The heavy duty steel workout cages rust at gyms. Bridges rust. Wouldn't your plan just lead to a slightly weaker, yet much more expensive bike?
Evaporust (Score:2)
reacting "with the rust to form a black layer."
That sounds exactly like Evaporust.
Fuck Peloton (Score:3)
What's the deal? (Score:2)
The sad part is there is exercise equipment costing the fraction of the price that fundamentally
Here's what the deal is. (Score:2)
[Insert snide remark about limp-wristed soy boys here.]
Since when is rust prevention news? (Score:2)
It should be standard practice to protect steel from oxidation. It is perhaps not always obvious how this should be done. A welded steel product we make where I work is used outdoors, and some parts get considerable mechanical stress. There is a nice grease we can put on the mechanism, that actively inhibits the electro-chemical reactions that rot ferrous materials. This extra manufacturing step definitely pays in the long run, because it saves call-outs to repair failed kit on site. And no, the customer is
Peloton went cheap (Score:1)
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Rust != Rust (Score:2)
A post on Slashot about iron oxide and not the language? What is the world coming to?
I feel lucky (Score:2)
I have had a Peloton bike for over four years, so I think my bike is in better shape than those owned by some of the folks who took delivery of their bikes during the pandemic. The company did not scale up production very well. That being said, my bike has a couple of minor cosmetic rust spots. What do people expect? The bike is literally being covered in salty sweat each time someone uses it. It's not a crystal vase to stick on a shelf and look at, it's a piece of workout equipment that's meant to be used
Cold Blueing (Score:2)
corrosion to be dealt with using a chemical solution called "rust converter," which conceals corrosion by reacting "with the rust to form a black layer."
So they cold blued it. Why didn't they just cold blue all of the bikes? If you blue something before it starts rusting then it wont rust. Or is that kind of expenditure "out of step with Peloton's quality brand"? Overpriced garbage. There's never enough money to do it right, but there is always enough to do it again.
I thought this was about Rust, the language (Score:1)
Why doesn't GM do this? (Score:2)
Maybe a better, stronger, longer lasting rust preventative coating would solve their issues?
rust... not Rust. (Score:1)
This company is a joke (Score:2)
Look at the photos before commenting! (Score:2)
These are high end boutique fanperson aspirational toys designed to make users feel part of an exclusive elite community and their marketing is brilliant, for example referring to a 40 y.o. mother as "young" when 40 is middle aged.
The coating blisters thanks to poor prep and the only cosmetically correct fix to return defective Pelotrons to new quality is expensive (more than their cheap pressed steel chassis costs to produce) teardown, strip and recoat. Anyone familiar with autobody work instantly sees why
When I was slightly (Score:1)
When I was slightly more juvenile than I am today we were going to start a punk band called the swollen members.