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SAS CEO Blasts Old-School Schooling
Posted by
CowboyNeal
on Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:46 PM
from the stuck-in-the-past dept.
from the stuck-in-the-past dept.
theodp writes "What does SAS CEO Dr. Jim Goodnight have in common with 47% of high school dropouts? A belief that school is boring. Marking the 50th anniversary of Sputnik with a call for renewed emphasis on science and technology in America's schools, Goodnight finds today's kids ill-served by old-school schooling: 'Today's generation of kids is the most technology savvy group that this country has ever produced. They are born with an iPod in one hand and a cell phone in another. They're text messaging, e-mailing, instant messaging. They're on MySpace, YouTube & Google. They've got Nintendo Wiis, Game Boys, PlayStations. Their world is one of total interactivity. They're in constant communication with each other, but when they go to school, they are told to leave those 'toys' at home. They're not to be used in school. Instead, the system continues teaching as if these kids belong to the last century, by standing in front of a blackboard.'"
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Tired of this goddamn label (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Tired of this goddamn label (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Tired of this goddamn label (Score:5, Insightful)
When I was in 5th grade I was learning how interbutts work. Instead of playing sports I was reading some "for dummies" books and learning the basics. I was designing basic websites for myself and my pets. I was exploring and learning about the technology that was springing up. I wanted to know how my first PC (Only an IBM with Win95, I'm too young for anything much older) I took it apart and figured out how it went together. When I got into High School I took a computer repair class and on the first day I was the first (and only) person who took his computer apart and put it back together in the time allowed. Now I build and troubleshoot computers for friends and family members on the side and make pretty good money doing that on top of my regular job (where I'm not a member of the IS department but I get asked to fix more problems than they do).
I still talk to my old Computer Repair teacher and he tells me that the new kids taking the class don't want to learn, they just browse the internet and update their MySpaces. They don't want to know how to install Windows or replace hardware. They don't even know what "a linux" is, and why would they? It doesn't help them add tacky background images to their myspace pages. In their defense, back before MySpace we all had a GeoCities account with an animated flaming skull
There's a big difference between USING technology and UNDERSTANDING it, and the kids today just don't care.
Get off my lawn (Score:4, Insightful)
However, as most seasoned IT people have figured out, 90% of the public user realm will never know the real stuff you do to make their world better. However they will think you an IT genius if you can show them how to color code their excel spreadsheet. Which is, I think how many IT people got their jobs in the first place...."Woah, a pie chart???!? You must be able to secure our webserver, manage our devs, and negotiate 6 figure budgets, thats the same!"
No they aren't (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure they are, just like interior decorators are building houses.
Troll... Flamebait... Threadjack! (Score:5, Interesting)
That book explains everything you need to know about the education system, why it is so fucked and yes, why it is boring, what it really is supposed to do and how it is doing Just That Real Well.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I can'
Re:Tired of this goddamn label (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Tired of this goddamn label (Score:5, Insightful)
Right. Apple spent millions of dollars with very smart people so that idiots could use an iPod. iPod's dominate the MP3 market because of their ease-of-use. And most people's text messaging is a detriment to both learning proper English and being tech-savy. A tech-savy person can type well enough that typing out the full words is easier than learning a new acronym, for example.
Re:Tired of this goddamn label (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Tired of this goddamn label (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Tired of this goddamn label (Score:5, Insightful)
Right on!
Please forgive any grammar, spelling or other snafus, it is very late, I am very tired, but I think this needs to be said.
This is one of my BIG soap boxes. My parents were teachers (now retired after 30+ years teaching each), I have taught, my brother has taught, we have all coached, taught extra-curricular classes and my parents have received numerous awards for what they have achieved with their students. My father at one time had over half of the high school he taught at (2500+ students) taking physics. My mother, father and I worked with Young Astronauts, Destination Imagination, Flight Club, Math League, Lego Robotics (as an extra-curricular), Athletics, 3rd through 6th grade science and math (my father helped with this while he taught the high school level), and much more. Amongst us, we have Physics Teacher of the year for our state (my father), Teacher of the year multiple times, parental awards for excellence in education (these come from the parents of the students, not other teachers) and plenty of politicians and business leaders who are sick and tired of us and our names. Those are some of our credentials.
Now, the real problem. Parents and our societal emphasis on lack of responsibility and over-emphasis on instant gratification. Nothing about classroom technologies, nothing about administrators, and nothing politicians in general. Though some of them are definite proof of some serious failings in their education from their parents - morality.
Students do not *normally* come to school to learn anymore. They expect to be entertained. They expect to be catered to. They expect to do nothing other than what they want. And honestly, how many kids know what they need? Some, but most do not. There is a pattern to all of this. Not absolute, nor 100% accurate, but routinely, you see this pattern over and over. If the parents of the children emphasize discipline, responsibility, morality, effort and honesty (at least self-honesty), the kids almost always outperform the other children they go to school with. The other kids, well lets just say they do not get as much out of school, and normally (but not always) out of life.
See, the problem starts at home for the vast majority of children. Parents do not spend enough quality time (working, playing, reading, building, cleaning, ...) together. Not an hour or two a day, but 3 to 5 hours per day. That may sound like a lot, but, they had this child. Children learn the most by observing. Not listening to your instructions, but observing you carry out (or not) your promises, your rules, your ethics, your respect, your honesty, your ...
Then, these kids go to school. Now, they have either learned to respect adults, work, responsibility and such at home, or they have not. Guess which kids do better at first (and normally for the rest of the time as well). Are they doomed then? No. They can learn how to live right. I have seen it. Sometimes by a divorce where one parent suddenly is seen by the child for what that parent really is and the other parent is finally able to provide that good home. Sometimes, the parents go away, through jail or Child Protective Services (I know they are not perfect either) and they wind up in a good home. They learn good habits, just takes them longer and they have to relearn many things. They are still disadvantaged in some ways, but can keep up with and compete in the real world.
Believe it or not, these are the things that most impact a child's education. And the education of the children around that child. Why? Because that child's behavior in class will either impede or propel the education of the children around them. Put one bratty attitude in a classroom, and you can loose a half day of education everyday, and never have a good quality day of education. One Child can ruin the class. You may say the teacher can do something about it. No, they can not in most cases. We the people, as a whole, either through a lack of caring, a lack of action or just a lack of a sense of responsibility have forced through legislation and law suits the schools to keep those kids in class. The message that has beem sent is "It is not fair to kick that one kid out, what about that kid's right to an eduaction?" That would be discrimination (not the color or gender type).
So, how do you really improve the educational system?
You may have noticed I did not say anything about teachers. There is a reason. Most are good and most do it because they love it. Most of them do not do it for the pay. They would make more in store management at WalMart. I know the salaries of each. There are those truly outstanding teachers who can reach across boundaries and perform miracles. We can not afford to hire all the people in the world like that to teach. We can afford to make the classrooms and the students more teachable. Those who are truly bad teachers (not disillusioned nor worn out - these are normally caused by the problems in the schools) can still be removed. But, parental involvement goes a long way to making that more productive - not the parents getting rid of teachers, but the parents supporting teachers to help prevent so much of the burn-out.
It comes down to parents being parents again. Teaching morals by living their morals. Teaching ethics by living ethically. Teaching how to live by living right.
The schools can have as many bills and rules and gadgets handed to them as you want. It will never change the most important education of most childrens' lives. Their parental education.
InnerWeb
Blame the mandate (Score:3, Interesting)
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Re:Blame the mandate (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Blame the mandate (Score:4, Funny)
Slashdot fits this criteria
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I happen to disagree. (Score:5, Insightful)
And interactive, for that matter.
Re:I happen to disagree. (Score:5, Insightful)
The best way to learn something is to try to teach it. Seminar-style classes should start before graduate school.
Re:I happen to disagree. (Score:4, Interesting)
I both disagree and agree.
This depends completely on the teacher.
My calculus-based physics teacher was a great example of how to teach a great interactive class by standing in front of a blackboard (or whiteboard in this case) and addressing the students orally. He probably did more to make me interested in Math, Science, and Engineering than anyone else other than my own father (who had a Ph.D. in Mathematics).
7 years later, after dropping out, working (for Microsoft!?!) for a few years, and re-starting college, I am currently taking calculus-based physics with a teacher who is a great example of how much standing in front of a blackboard and addressing the students orally can suck.
My only job is a school tutor and my study habits have much improved since 7 years ago, so I'm doing well in school. But I look around and I see many students who struggle because most of teachers are more like the latter example, rather than the former .
MIT undergrads disagree as well (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I happen to disagree. (Score:4, Insightful)
I still agree addressing students orally and directly is still one of the best methods of education though.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I happen to disagree. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I happen to disagree. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's what decent professors/teachers have been doing for decades. I don't really see how technology changes anything there. 30 years ago I could flip through a reference book or go to the library and look up a formula or fact. Yes, Google is a bit more convenient. But surely high school students already know how to use search engines, right? If they can make a ghastly abomination on MySpace, they can use Google.
Besides that, a great professor giving a lecture using a blackboard is a million times better than watching a crappy professor go through a powerpoint show. The one isn't using technology, but technology isn't going to make up for the other's incompetence.
If there's an obvious benefit from using technology, then by all means use it; but I don't think it should be used just for the sake of using it.
Re:I happen to disagree. (Score:5, Interesting)
But that's not all! My high school also had a multi-hundred-thousand dollar "foreign language computer lab". In middle school French class, common activities were listening to educational cassettes and conversing with fellow students in French. At my high school, we would go to the foreign language computer lab, put on headsets and... listen to educational cassettes and converse with fellow students in French - but over headsets attached to computers!
Politicians and bureaucrats love to throw money at education, and technology, by virtue of being expensive, gives them an excellent outlet for this. The GP seems to think that combining technology with education will give students "hands on experience with technology", when in reality, it only demonstrates how utterly useless technology is in certain settings. It highlights how technology as a complete waste of time and money, when it should be emphasizing the ways in which technology can improve our world and be of great benefit to us all.
They are toys (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:They are toys (Score:4, Insightful)
Antecedent - Behavior - Consequence (Score:5, Interesting)
It's been a while since I took Ed Psych, so I can't use too many more big behavior-analysis words, but when you saturate children with immediate reinforcement and then drop them into a classroom, it's pretty obvious that a good percentage of them will become zombie children. Human teachers just can't provide the reinforcement schedule that they've become accustomed to.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Let'em use punch cards and only one hour of computer time each week (Saturday night, 2 am to
I wish more people would think this way!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
It is unfortunate that the teaching system (of which my wife is a part) is stuck in a 19th century methodology of teaching the masses to act in unison. It is as if they're preparing these kids for the rote factory jobs of yesterday instead of the knowledge-critical jobs of today.
I've yet to find one instance in my work (IT manager over about 60 people in a large government agency with roughly 60 servers, 1,500 staff members and 18TB of data online) where I had to fill out a scantron form or decide which option was best - a, b, c, d, or all of the above.
As it is, I'm on the school site council, PTA and am constantly talking to the administration in my sons' school district. They just don't seem to want to 'get it.'
So...? (Score:3, Interesting)
Kids aren't interested these days because no one is showing them why they should be interested. All the kids see is their parents consuming mass amounts of entertainment, no wonder they choose their Playstation 3 over their algebra homework.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
This of course has the effect that those are above the level being catered to get bored, while those below the level fall behind, and never even l
Savvy? (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, it's a generalization, just like his generalization. I hate the notion that "technology savvy" means "knows how to operate a user interface designed to be easy to operate". Yes, I'm an old fart (38), and grumpy. Regardless, my 4-year-old is proficient with a web browser. He is by no means tech savvy, and he learns more about real technology by interacting with a tricycle or bionicles than he does by playing some Flash game.
That said, I agree school sucks. It sucked when I was in school ("good" public schools in the 70's & 80's) and I hear it sucks worse now. I don't particularly see what text messaging can do to improve on the suckiness.
But you're missing the point of school. (Score:3, Interesting)
Unrelated (Score:3, Insightful)
And? Does anyone really think the lack of cell-phones in the classroom is the problem holding American education back?
I used to teach in Japan (by standing in front of a blackboard, an actual blackboard, with chalk and everything). We told our students to leave their cell-phones at home, too.
Clearly, Japan's education system should be as bad as America's, given these criteria.
So advanced (Score:5, Insightful)
If I left no student behind and pitched to the slower students, then I would have completely alienated the average and gifted ones. If I pitched to the gifted ones, then 80% of the class would have felt left out. If I drove down the middle of the fairway, then both ends of the curve would be, well, bored.
So when I read this SAS guy's comment about how advanced these students are these days, with their MySpace and iPods and cell phones, I don't buy into the connection between their "cyber-lifestyle" and their educational ennui. I think a typical classroom with typical chalk and a typical board can be plenty stimulating in whatever topic, provided it's tuned to the students' ability levels. But if you are going to insist that everyone in the class is equally able to absorb the material just because they all somehow ended up in the same room together, then you are probably going to have a chunk of students tune out because they're too far behind, and a chunk tune out because they're too far ahead. It would not surprise me if those two groups together would add up to about 47%.
He nailed it on the head... (Score:5, Insightful)
He outlined the problem with the *kids*, NOT the problem with schools. Perhaps if the kids didn't have access to all those toys they'd have an attention span beyond that of a chronically depressed lemming and actually be able to learn something while in class.
Wow, has Dr Jim's brain gone "Goodnight"!!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Prior to iPods, mobile phones, Facebook, etc. etc., were the youth of the day just standing around bored with their hands in their pockets any more than they do today?
When I was a teenager 25-30 years ago, I read a lot, built models, did a lot of home electronics, a bit of woodwork and started programming on some of the first home computer systems - and I'd argue that I'm more technically savvy than most of the youngsters today because I learnt to build stuff from scratch so much, whether software, some wooden shelves or an electronic gizmo.
An iPod is a portable music player like a Walkman was 15 years ago, Facebook is just an extension of writing and meeting pen-friends 20 or more years ago.
If anything the modern "have it all now" youngsters have lost such qualities as patience and long attention spans.
I did well at school because I DAMN WELL GOT SOME COMMON SENSE AND BUCKLED DOWN TO DOING SOME BLOODY WORK!!!!
Remind me - HOW MANY KIDS WITH DYSLEXIA AND ADHD WERE THERE 25 YEARS AGO???
Plato condemns the invention of writing (Score:4, Interesting)
Consider the source here.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Dr. Goodnight is also the de-facto CEO of Cary, NC, a well-to-do suburb of Raleigh. He attempts to rule the place with a velvet-clad iron fist, much like David Packard tries to dictate terms to Palo Alto, CA. As a result, all the new development in Cary (and there is a lot of it) tends to resemble the set of either "The Stepford Wives" or "The Truman Show". (I know, I lived there for 13 years.) Thus Dr. Jim has the occasional delusion of God-like powers within the town limits.
To his credit, he also started Cary Academy, a boarding school with a very intense math and science curriculum. (I think it's K-12, not sure, but I do know that SAS employees get a break on the tuition.) But I'm convinced his insights are marred by the bias of the student population he's observed there: motivated, intelligent kids with affluent parents.
He only needs to venture a few miles west to Granville County, NC to see what the rest of the student population looks like: neglectful parents who have never known the value of an education, and who are barely scraping by in construction or crappy service jobs. (I know someone who taught there. If you ever want to know where the left-hand side of the bell curve lives, go to Granville.) I don't think any upgrade of classroom tech will transform the young lives there.
So Jim, if you read Slashdot, please heed my advice, and pull your head out of your academy.
Re:Proof That CEOs are Overpaid (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the biggest problems with schools in the USA is that they do not reward learning, they reward docility.
-jcr
Re: Just wondering.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder if he has ever taught a class.
Re: Just wondering.... (Score:4, Informative)
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Okay, I learned Math and English and Chemistry and even Home Economics, but I also learned teamwork, leadership, negotiation, how to surf, a bunch of good jokes, how to mak
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