Verizon, Copper, Fiber, and the Truth

Alexander Graham Cracker writes "Starting last spring, reports began surfacing of Verizon routinely disabling copper as it installed its fiber-based FiOS service. We discussed the issue here a couple of times. In my experience, every time Verizon has installed FiOS at a friend's house, they have insisted they have to cut off the copper and move the POTS to the fiber. By doing so, they block anyone else such as COVAD or Cavalier from renting the copper for competitive access. Sources report that today, at a hearing of the House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet, Verizon executive VP Thomas Tauke denied ever doing that. (The transcript should be up in a day or so. The AP coverage does not mention this detail.) I wonder if Rep. Markey's staff is interested in hearing from people who experienced Verizon disabling copper, and without notice?"

Happened to me

When I switched from cable internet to FiOS earlier this year I was told that had to permanently cut the copper wire to my house. So I now have fiber phone service. Works fine, except for the short delay that always occurs between picking up the phone and using it. They also put a battery in my basement to give me eight hours of phone service during a power outage.

Happened to Me Too!

We had FIOSS put in because the 7 MB/sec line was faster and cheaper than the T-1. They not only cut our copper, but they dug up and removed most of the copper cabling from the neighborhood. They said that with the price of copper, it would be recycled and it would keep it from being stolen since it wasn't being used anymore. It sounded suspicious to me, but I stood in what was then my front yard and watched them do it.

2 cents,

Queen B.

Re:Happened to me

Because glass doesn't conduct electricity as well as copper :-)

Re:Happened to me

I assume you're joking, but in case you're not: The phone company has a separate power source that operates even when the consumer power lines are down. Sending this electricity through copper lines to operate household phones works fine. But glass fiber is not quite as electrically conductive.

All that need be done...

All someone would need to do to validate these claims would be to bring in a competitor and have them try to offer services through said copper. It would be hearsay to make a statement without something other than a "word of mouth" to back up a claim. Doing so - bringing in an alternative provider - provides irrefutable proof. However being crafty I can think of an instance where someone @ Verizon can make an argument charging that the copper coming into the home was causing some form of crosstalk which caused attenuation issues and required the copper being "disabled". Note the intentional use of "disabled" as opposed to "cut". I personally could see some twobit Verizon shlum doing something stupid on their own accord. "If we cut the copper John we never have to worry about losing our job!"

Verizon disabling copper?

Nope, my pennies still seem to work..

Re:Verizon disabling copper?

Nope, my pennies still seem to work..

Only if they're 1982 or older.

New twist on RTFA...

Ummm, maybe it would have made sense to hold off on this story until it's found to be true, instead of telling us that "sources report" something that's not in the linked article? Far be it from me to doubt Alexander Graham Cracker's "sources", but just on principle...

Monopoly power

This is why the company that provides telephone service should be a separate company from the one that maintains the wires. Same with power. Same with cable.

Not for me

They left my copper in, because it was too difficult to remove. However, even when he was trying to do so , I was well aware he was going to remove the copper.

I generally stick around when contractors are rewiring my house, but I suppose if you're not one of those people, it may come as a surprise. It's probably one of those things on the checklist of stuff to mention, and it doesn't happen sometimes. I've had friends get fiber, be told they're removing the copper, asked them to not remove it, and there were no problems.

Also, I had a bird's nest of copper in my house. I got FiOS so my phone and internet would be over a clear digital connection, and it hasn't gone down since the day it went in (early this summer). I could care less about the speed.

Are they cutting it at the demarcation point?

Or further up the line? Because the Telco is responsible up to the demarcation point, after which, it is the customer's wiring. Which side are they cutting? How significant is this cutting? Whole sections, or just a snip here to isolate the premise wiring in preparation of new equipment installation?

Last spring?

spring, reports began surfacing of Verizon routinely disabling copper as it installed its fiber-based FiOS service

Last spring? I had FiOS installed in early to mid 2005 and the installer asked to remove my copper. At the time I hadn't yet cancelled my T1. But for that I've no doubt he'd have removed it.

It gets even worse

My downstairs neighbor had FIOS put in. In addition to disconnecting the neighbor's copper all the way to the pole, the wonderfully helpful FIOS installer:

• Cut the copper line where it entered my building
  
• Filled the hole in the wall with silicone goo (preventing rewiring of the copper)
  
• Disconnected the copper all the way up to the pole
  
• Changed/disconnected my copper connection at the CO
  
• Plugged the FIOS unit in the basement into an outlet that is on my electric meter
  

It took me 3 weeks of fighting with Verizon (who insisted on taking 2 days to make a service appointment window, and insisted that they be 8a-7p) and my DSL provider (who was horribly frustrated by their inability to get Verizon to simply run a clean *bleeping* loop) to get things back up and running.

Re:Not really surprised

That's my question. Can't other phone companies use the fiber line into your house as well? I thought all fiber/copper went back to the same switching station anyway.

Re:Not really surprised

Fiber is getting to play by new rules. Old rules say that if you are going to use the public right-of-way, you have to share the lines. The new rules say - gimmey-da-money-and-shut-up.

The old Telco laws were expressly written to handle the copper POTS lines since there was no other service. Now that fiber is being run in, the telco's are saying that since the law says POTS, it's POTS & POTS only - and spending billions squashing attempts at updating the law while they're at it.

As a side note, I have a friend who works for Verizon & per the techs, they only yank the copper if it makes fishing the fiber easier - otherwise it's too much work & trouble.

Re:Not really surprised

They laid the cable as well, but decades ago. The difference is: the copper was installed under "rate of return" regulation; aka "the more money you waste; the more money you get from the subscribers..."

That's not true for the glass, as the Bells [in most states] got freed from RoR several years ago.

So the copper is essentially yours & mine, held in trust by Ma's stepkids. Can we sue them for neglect, and get custody, al-la K-Fed?

Re:Not really surprised

Fiber be damned, bring me lower prices. Competition between competitors is guaranteed to bring down prices. The fact that I have no choice in carriers is the one reason I have to pay $30-40 for a decent connection. Leaving down a cable would definetly lead to a competitive market.

And DSL be damned. When the DSL is sluggish like in my neighborhood, it is not an option.

Re:Not really surprised

And who told you that you can't allow a competitor to run a new cable to your property? It wasn't Verizon who made a regulation making them the sole provider -- it was your local and State government. Don't be mad at Verizon because your government is completely fraudulent and corrupt -- if you vote, kick everyone out on the next election, and keep doing it until someone removes the monopoly provisions.

natural monoply

And who told you that you can't allow a competitor to run a new cable to your property? It wasn't Verizon who made a regulation making them the sole provider -- it was your local and State government. Don't be mad at Verizon because your government is completely fraudulent and corrupt -- if you vote, kick everyone out on the next election, and keep doing it until someone removes the monopoly provisions.

Actually the best way to deal with a Natural Monopoly [wikipedia.org] like landlines [wikipedia.org] is to separate the infrastructure from services. Maybe instead of a business owning the infrastructure local governments, nonprofits, or business can own it but then they are required to allow open access. This is what's being done in northeastern Utah with a Broadband Utopia [ieee.org]. A group of communities in the area built the infrastructure and allows anyone to offer any services it is capable of. It could be internet access, phone service, "cable" tv, or any combination (Triple Play". How would you like a 30 megabit per second, mps, connection? That's what's available now however speeds could get to 100mps.

Re:Not really surprised

The winner-takes-all congressional election system, and the committee system in Congress, ensures that voting for a third party will never be as effective as working within the locally-dominant party to bend it to your ends. The former also leads both parties into a race to the middle, which leaves no political space for a third party (this is just the Median Voter Theorem).

Bipartisan legislative rules, by which Congress is run, are largely deals between the two major parties at the expense of any potential third one. Even campaign finance reform's major effect is to make it harder to break out into the public consciousness, which redounds to the benefit of existing party organizations.

The two-party system is enshrined in no law, but the structure of the system makes it certain that we end up with that.

Are you sure?

You would think that wires run to the closest exchange, but that is not always the case. I saw a case at USWest (LONG ago), where the closest exchange was across the street, but because it was added later, our wires ran several miles up the road.

Re:Only on slashdot

Copper infrastructure was mostly paid for by government granted monopolies. In return, it was a tariffed service that the telcos had to lease to anyone, in a non-discriminatory way.

Yes, they had to lease to their competitors. That was the price of the gov't granting them a monopoly.

Fiber is paid for by the telcos, not the gov't so is not a tariffed service. While Verizon MUST lease copper to competitors, it isn't compelled to lease fiber access. Verizon cutting the copper is effectively cutting off any competition that was not a Baby Bell in a past life.

No, they can't just reconnect it. The copper is cut on BOTH ends -- telco CO and house. Feel free to reconnect one end, but they aren't required to let you hook it back up in their CO.

The only reason Verizon and AT&T and the others can afford to pay to lay the fiber is the wealth that was created by their guaranteed monopoly.

Some Ideas are Worth Keeping, Some Not.

Fiber == Future. Copper == Past. This is the idea of capitalism, we want an even playing field for companies so that they can edge out the competition with better prices/ideas. Verizon is doing that, and quiet well.

If things really were free, you would be right. They are not and you are selling yourself out. It was a sin for government to grant Ma Bell a monopoly. To undo that sin, the public servitude must be liberated and the Bell holdings must be dissolved. The other answer is to have a completely public network that everyone can use. Any combination of the two will favor one company over the others and this is why US networks have gone from world supremacy to third rate status. Verizon is doing what they are doing so that others won't be able to serve you. When they are finished robbing you of choice they will take your freedom.

Re:Yawn

Verizon's telco predecessors made that capital investment with gov't guaranteed monopolies. In short, it really ISN'T Verizon's copper, it is copper paid for by taxes and a gov't granted monopoly. It is national infrastructure.

Re:Wait, I'm confused -- who started the mess?

Yeah, you ARE confused. Verizon often did not lay the coper lines, Ma Bell did. Oh yeah, and Ma Bell (or Verizon later) was granted a MONOPOLY and made a huge amount of cash on it. In exchange they were told, you have to let other people rent those lines. It was part of the Deal. Oh, and also don't forget that when they installed the copper in the first place they often charged the home owner to do it. As in, I paid to put this stuff in, I will need it later, so how dare you rip it out So yeah, they are RIPPING US OFF. They are in effect paying their employees money to prevent them from having to fulfill their legal obligations to RENT (as in they get PAID for it) the copper. Totally illegal, totally a waste of cash and totally unethical. But you go on and and complaing about how what they are doing is 'ok' cause they own the copper.