Intern? Bloggers Need Not Apply

westlake writes "Short, funny, and to the point, a good read from the NYT about the realities of blogging in the corporate world." From the article: "Most experienced employees know: Thou Shalt Not Blab About the Company's Internal Business. But the line between what is public and what is private is increasingly fuzzy for young people comfortable with broadcasting nearly every aspect of their lives on the Web, posting pictures of their grandmother at graduation next to one of them eating whipped cream off a woman's belly. For them, shifting from a like-minded audience of peers to an intergenerational, hierarchical workplace can be jarring."

Yeah, it's real

My coworkers and I were sharing stories at lunch the other day; thankfully, my office is blissfuly absent of corporate culture ("professional, but relaxed"). A coworker who has a daughter my age said that when her daughter started working as a receptionist at a hospital, she came home after a few months on the job and said "Mom...you never told me Dilbert was real..."

Re:Hospitals

(all of this known, first-hand)
Hospitals are sieves...for the most part. I can cite a current situation where things were kept very clandestine due to the extreme nature of what was going on. The press largely chose to skip over it which shocked me.

Nurses aren't unfireable, per se, regardless of how endangered a species they appear to be. It just costs more to lure some of them out of hiding. Nurses are, however, almost the lifeblood of a facility as there are few things they can't & don't do, out of care for the patients as much as pure necessity. You don't see orderlies any more. It's not unusual for a minimum of the staff, working directly or indirectly for the hospital, to be more than 1/3 nurses. There's only one thing which nurses do not cope with very well: hospitals which offshore nurses; i.e., bring in 3rd-world nurses. There is almost nothing they won't do -- trumping the nurses we believe so strongly in. Fortunately, this is a rare, rare situation.

The group (en masse) which has virtually no accountability to the hospital is that which has a lot of M.D. and other related abbreviated diplomas and licenses. They rarely work directly for the hospital but instead, for a separate organization which more or less dovetails into hospitals' structures such that it's as if they are working for the hospital. The bridge is usually someone who works in a department labelled (or similarly labelled) Medical Affairs.

Something hospital staff (including MDs, RNs[1], and even housekeeping have to be reminded of is not to talk about what they see, hear, or participate in or outside of the hospital. (re: patients) Most people would be surprised how much "indirect" shop talk takes place after a shift over a few drinks and even with specific clues left out, it's possible to identify whom they are talking about. What's worse is when they do it in the hallways or elevators and may be sharing hearing space with family or friends of the patient(s) they are discussing.


____________________________________
[1] You'll notice I abhore using the "grocer's apostrophe" with acronyms. I hate seeing "MD's", "RN's", "PC's". It's gotten so bad people will post ads in real newspapers ala "Schedule Party's With Us!".

Actually, the purpose for this footnote was to point out how many nurses and technicians (doctors don't seem to do it very much) say, "I'm headed to the OR|ER room".

This article summed up in ten words:

Don't use your real name on your blog, you idiot!

Re:This article summed up in ten words:

I disagree. You should use your real name 'cause it should keep you from saying something too stupid. Sooner or later you'll get outed anyways, and then you'll be wishing you hadn't bragged about doin' the football player's wife.

Also, written content never dies, it just defines you for life. Ask any politician (that can write).

Its all mentality

People shouldnt be surprised, security is 20% technical 80% mentality. The "tell everyone everything" mentality is not good for security.

However, not all bloggers share that mentality. And not all non bloggers are exempt from it so hey.

blogs are at least a fantastic way to vet an employee before hiring.

Reputations are forever...

I continue to be amazed at the personal details shared across the internet. At one time, I put my phone number, office number, and alternate email addresses, in my signature. That changed significantly after AOL "joined" the internet, of course. With the panic in human resources about providing or receiving references (beyond the dates of employment), things like myspace provde an interesting adjunct to vetting future workers.

It isn't just the inappropriate pictures that will keep you from being employed. It's the evidence that you can't keep quiet about things, that you're not trustworthy, that you're not even very good with grammar and spelling (in the real world, spelling counts). Once upon a time you could move away from a bad reputation, or switch jobs to leave behind a bad experience or two. Now, with things like zabasearch and google hacks to track you down, youthful indescretion becomes a permanent and inescapable brand.

No second chances. Sad.

Re:Reputations are forever...

In fact, I hope that the publishing of things like this helps to open our society a bit farther. The fact of the matter is that most people behave in "abnormal" ways, but keep it a secret. With the internet, and the publication of various things like this (college-age risky behavior, kinky fetishes, weakness for whipped cream) maybe we can finally recognize that *everyone* is a little bit weird, and the tyranny of the majority will cease to be such a factor in society.

That MySpace blog is there for everyone to see

I don't know if it's all that different from when I was first entering the workplace, but today's youngsters put it all out there. I don't know where kids get the idea that the only ones who would ever look at their MySpace blogs are people in their own age group.

Blackmail

I determined a while ago that any private material that becomes public material can be used against you. In about 20 years I expect a metric shit-ton of blackmail material will be available for our future up-and-coming politicians. (Thank you MySpace for embarrassing our future politicians!)

Of course, because I'm smart enough to keep private matters private, I'm automatically disqualified from politics. (Yay!)

Hint: No matter how awesome that frat party was (I don't care *how* crazy those midgets where!), it's probably not a good idea to post those pics until your hangover is gone.

Encourage the rich/connected to Blog/myspace

On the other hand -if we encouraged all of the Poli Sci, Business and Law students to not only blog, but to also to post pictures of their exploits on myspace we might be able to weed out some of our future idiot/corrupt politicos and business people.

Just think if this have been around in the '80s when King George was partying his brains out....

-What's the Speed of Dark?

But Whose Belly?

Was the woman his grandmother? I wouldn't hire that dude at all.

in general

If there is something you don't want your boss, your friends your family or your enemies to know, don't put it online.

If it's really really sensetive, don't write it down either.

If you say "hah...no one will care what I said/wrote anyway", you'd be suprised.

Totally true

Two weeks after graduating from high school I was hired by a fortune 500 company to work in the bowels of the tech department. Let me tell you that I saw a lot of totally confidential stuff that I thought was awesome and It was hard to not blab about all of the information I was privvy too

News Flash!!!

Acting like an idiot in public can hurt your job prospects. Acting like an idiot in a world wide, semi perpetual, archived and instantly accessible forum can *really* hurt your career.

Lets not couch this in terms of some kind of cultural divide. These people are putting things in public that should be private and then suprised by their own ignorance.

The mysterious Step 2.

Everybody I've read about that got fired for having a blog is on to such great things," said Kelly Kreth, 36, who was fired from her job as the marketing and public relations director at a real estate firm in Manhattan last fall for blogging about her co-workers.

"I've had my online diary for six years, and it is very important to me," Ms. Kreth said, calling the firing the best thing that happened to her. "It led to me opening my own business and making triple what I was making before."

Step 1. Get Job
Step 2. Blog about it
Step 3. Get fired
Step 4. Profit!!

OTOH, does the same thing apply to kids who get expelled from college/highschool?

Is this relevant?

posting pictures of their grandmother at graduation next to one of them eating whipped cream off a woman's belly.

This is Slashdot, people. This is an experience that is absoultely unrelated to anyone that views this website.

I mean, I only got 8 tickets to graduation. You think gram ranks above the guys from the local LINUX group and my WoW guild?

A chilling future

OK, I've heard the "information wants to be free" mantra a zillion times, and I've met my fair share of people who think their right to free speech (no matter what they're saying and what the consequences will be) trumps anything else.

I've seen an absurd story on the news today about a British woman who was prosecuted for indecent exposure, because she had the audacity to sunbathe nude in her own garden. (She was acquitted, but the comments by both the public prosecutor and the judge were profoundly inappropriate, and no-one seems to have taken any action against the "offended" neighbour who videoed the nude sunbather without her permission - something that probably is illegal under the recent Sexual Offences Act.)

You know the thing that really scared me today? A professor (in the UK sense, i.e., a very senior academic) talking about the "semantic web" and implying that in a few years, everyone will have a unique "Internet ID", and everything from their personal details to pictures of their wedding will be on-line for all to look up, instantly and reliably.

Choosing to share your personal information with the world is one thing, though I suspect a great many of the enthusiastic youngsters supporting trendy web sites today will regret it one day. Choosing to share others' personal information with the world is an entirely different thing, and I'm not sure I want to live in a world where everything about you is assumed to be public knowledge.

Maybe I'm just biased, since a bitter ex of mine did once post intimate and formerly private personal messages on her blog (but edited and with modified dates). It just seems to me that this sort of thing is happening ever more often: it's assumed that no-one you deal with has a private life, and if you know it, it's perfectly fine to share it with others. I guess the whole posting confidential company information thing is just another nail in the coffin: as the saying goes, privacy is dead, and we have killed it.

It's tragic, and it's even more tragic that most people don't even realise. Yet.

What Would Google Show?

"What would Google show?" is a question you need to ask yourself when applying for a job. Employers increasingly Google the name of prospective employees. Not for the mail room job, but certainly for management level positions or those with security implications or even just those above some annual salary level. You also need to remember that with huge caches that shit doesn't go away even if you try to disappear it. What you thought was cool at 20 may not seem so to someone you are asking to pay you 100k at 30.

Why differentiate?

What is it about the word "blog" that makes people stupid?

"It is important that corporations make a choice as to what type of blogging they will allow," said Alfred C. Frawley III, director of the intellectual property practice group at the law firm Preti Flaherty in Portland, Me.

Why does blogging need a different set of rules than any other medium for communication?

If there is something your company doesn't want disclosed, have the lawyers draft up the paperwork. Just for kicks, we'll call it a "non-disclosure agreement", or NDA for short. If this NDA is broken, handle accordingly.

You may be within your rights to decide what I am allowed to disclose, but what does it matter how I do it?

Director of the intellectual property practice indeed. Just another moron with a big title that even he doesn't understand.

Bloggers As Celebrities

Someone put forward the theory to me the other day that we like Celebrities (and I use the term 'we' here loosely) because we miss the sense of community our tribal ancestors had. Celebrities fill the gap because they provide a familiarity with faces and shared stories that link us to other people around the world.

Blogging seems to extend this idea (ideal?) by making peoples stories more openly shared. For example, I read http://www.waiterrant.net/ [waiterrant.net] and http://www.oblivio.com/ [oblivio.com], I know their stories even though they live in new york, and somehow the world feels smaller and less disparate. Added to that, I have a few friends who read the same blogs, we both know their stories (or at least the stories they choose to tell).

It brings back that sense of community a little.

WTF?

posting pictures of their grandmother at graduation next to one of them eating whipped cream off a woman's belly

Anyone who does this is a fucking moron. Anyone with such a galactic dearth of common sense deserves to be shut out of the corporate world. And the rest of society for that matter. This is the kind of person that doesn't care when everyone loses their rights to privacy, since they don't use any of theirs. They can all burn in a fiery pit and go straight to hell.

[/rant]

Hierarchical, intergenerational workplace

I really thought the part of the blurb that talked about moving from a group of peers to the intergenerational workplace was specially insightful. As a college student, and as a young person, I feel that my peers too often underestimate the culture gap between themselves and their future employers. Many of my fellow students are mature enough to handle the transition well, but not everyone is as capable.

I think blogging about everything is only a single aspect of the vast differences between today's youth and their parents' generation.

Makes selection easier

Stupidity screen. Social Darwinism at work.

missing link.

Shouldn't "eating whipped cream off a woman's belly" be a link above?

Re:missing link.

eating whipped cream off a woman's belly [facebook.com]

Re:missing link.

Omigod.

MOM?!

The problem is with extremes

Anyone dumb enough to post their company's innermost secrets on their blog deserves exactly what they get.
Similarly, any boss who fires an employee simply on the basis that they have a blog, regardless of content, deserves some sort of dressing down - although this is harder to achieve.

People are too often pushed into very polarised positions on the matter, which helps no-one. There's plenty of acceptable middle ground, if only someone could bring reasonable discussion to the table.

Oh god - I hope they don't read /.

Aaaahhh - damn. I knew I shouldn't use my real name when I registered. Oh god, what am I gonna do now - aaaahhhh.

Actually, I think many people invent a psuedo-name and often don't realize when they've crossed the line from anonymous to identifiable when you look at the collection of what they post. The vastness of the internet makes people feel safe even when their standing naked in public.

I've worked with 2 people who were fired over blogs they thought were quite anonymous, but it became quite clear who was writing them when you looked at the collection of posts. They both knew perfectly well if they were caught they'd be fired (and they should've been), but they also felt quite anonymous since they didn't use their 'real names. It's ALOT like folks that post 'anonymous' comments on stock boards.

Jeez. Gotta be careful about those intros...

I thought that said "eating whipped cream off their grandmother's belly."

Come to think of it, gotta be careful what you post at Slashdot: all that anti-Microsoft hatred that can get spewed could be problematic when The (Wo)Man goes to sign a paycheque.

job hunting

About 5 years ago, I did a search on google for my boss. He did not have a very unique last name, so all I did was narrow searches down to vicinities he was likely to have lived in. It only took a few minutes. He was convinced it would be very difficult to find him on google becuase of his name. Problem is, anyone looking for you on google, would already know a little bit about you, and that is enough to dig up newspaper articles, jail records, resumes, and all sorts of stuff. I would rather not have my future boss finding me on myspace doing keg stands, or mooning someone with a half-shaved-ass. I do/have done stupid shit just for laughs, just like everyone else. That doesn't mean I use the same judgement in a professional setting. I would rather be interviewed without any pre-conceived notions.

Totally Misleading Headline

From TFA:

But Comedy Central disagreed, asking him to change the name (He did, to "I'm an Intern in New York") and to stop revealing how its brand of comedic sausage is stuffed.

"They said they figured something like this would happen eventually because blogs had become so popular," said Mr. McDonald, now 23, who kept his internship. "It caught them off guard. They didn't really like that."

So, basically, they objected to him sharing potentially confidential information (fair enough) and to his using their name for his personal (readership/ad) gain. Again, fair enough. He still got to keep the blog, and he's still an intern there. Oh, and he didn't have the blog when he "applied," anyway.

Le sigh. If the editors don't RTFA, what hope is there for the rest of the readership again?

Did anyone else...

Go and immediately start googling alias's, full names etc of their own to see what pops up?

*hastily edits some forum posts*

*hastily deletes some blog entries*

The internet: a threat to the powerful

I think that this shows the power of the internet. Mass communication is a tremendous source of power. It changes government policy and it is also a threat to corporate power and even the power of a school. Here's to the internet! Here's to blogging!

Don't forget to Google(TM) them, too...

Your future bosses and the people interviewing you are also online, and may have interesting bits of information floating around there.

If nothing else, it makes sense to include personal information searches in your "company background research" phase of interview preparation. The more you know, the better prepared you are.

Jim

Naivete

I fail to see why bloggers are perennially shocked by this. It really has nothing to do with blogging -- if you talk about company business in public, you're in danger of being fired. It's that simple.

The fact that bloggers seem more inclined to blab publicly doesn't really affect anything to do with this. You talk about company business, you risk being fired. It doesn't matter whether or not you do it by leaking it to a reporter, talk about it in a bar, or post it on the Web for all to see.

The moral indignation of bloggers on this issue is really quite laughable. The very same features of a blog that allow you to get your word out to a wide (but willing) audience easily are precisely the same features that mean it'll be easy for your company to find out you're talking out of turn. That you can do it easily and reach a lot of people quickly doesn't really change the fact that you shouldn't be doing it -- blog or no.

You can't have it both ways.

Newsflash: Becoming a responsible adult is jarring

So basically the point here is that making the transition from being an irresponsible young idiot to being a responsible adult is a jarring experience. What a revelation!

Well, duh

I'm amazed at the number of people that come to interviews and think I haven't run a search on their name through Google or other search engines.

While I most likely wouldn't call anyone to an interview whose postings show indescretion, I often think of how I'd just like to see their face when I place a copy of their search results in front of them.

Why do you think I post under a 'nym?

I regret nothing!

I do appreciate the value of discretion for people in these lines of work. However, I did silly things under pseudonyms for ages on the Internet - still do, actually - and it is pretty easily traceable to me in RL. And I've realized I don't regret any of it.

I'm no intern, nor am I an up-and-coming executive. The sort of life I'm looking for and the "adult" lifestyle I pursue is one that's totally compatible with some random guy who makes bad jokes on message boards, produces cheaply done artwork, remixes pop music without permission, writes "Doctor Who" fanfic, is a member of a pagan coven, MCs cheezy presentations at hacker cons, and posts strange dreams to livejournal. I may not ever make partner in the prestigious XYZ firm, I may not ever break six figures, but I'll be somewhere doing something that is compatible with someone like me.

So, having things on my "permanent record" like the stuff I've done with phonelosers.org or 2600 or whatever else is strangely liberating in its way, because it pretty much forces me into putting my money where my mouth is and seeking out a lifestyle I'd be happy in, rather than one I'll endure for the sake of appearances.

Hi, my name is Rob, and I'm Googleable.

Eh.

In a year or so I'm going to be in a position to hire people. And yeah, I'm going to look at their blogs if I can find them. I might object to people talking about how they plan to fuck up every job they have, or chatting amiably about how much money they stole from their last employer, and so on and so forth.

But assuming they're not an obvious asshole, I'd actually *prefer* employees who have a sense of fun and a life. I'd rather see a blog talking, side-by-side, about work and home life and parties - or even just home life and parties - than one chronicling the minute details of work.

Maybe I'm unique in wanting employees that are interesting smart skilled people, but if you immediately throw out everyone who's interesting, you end up with a company full of boring people. And that's not the company I want to work at. Or run.

So, yeah. Posting those party pics might mean you can't work in middle management at Wal-Mart. And if that's a serious problem for you, then . . . I guess maybe you shouldn't post the party pics. But there are companies out there that don't care so much.

Students with the tools are threats

The more tools you get, the more threatened your bosses are going to get. Employees who can host blogs and write killer software are going to get shafted as their tools invade what was once the exclusive domain of their bosses.

Paranoia

I would claim it a simply paranoia and simply misunderstaning HOW real life happens that I get in politics, how I get work, etc.

Yep, clever people sometimes do stupid or "uneasy for everyone" things, but usually are sorry about that, so almost everyone forgives them, forgets that and life moves on. Beatles haven't lost nothing of their star power when they admitted they used stimulators while rock'n'rolling in Hamburg. And let's be clear - most people don't care HOW much you have been drunk in one party twenty years ago - if you didn't broke a law, didn't hit anyone, didn't drive car while drunk - you have ALMOST nothing to worry about. ALMOST nothing but spin doctors, but hey, they will be there for you anyway :)

Privacy is overhyped. But worries about blogging from both sides - individuals and companies - also are too...just worries and nothing more. Certainly, there are several individuals who will do stupid things, but they will do that anyway.

About company information and blogging - well, if you are working here, you have agreement and usually, certain level of loyality, I suppose. If you are not and have problems with attitude or even hate your work, then you are in trouble anyway, and sure have to leave, with or without trolling about your employer in blog. If you don't have to work anywhere else - then simply avoid talk bad or anything about work, because it could create confusion and frustrate and won't help anyone, even yourself. Keep it profesional, not personal.

Be reasonable. Learn to be that way. It is not matter of blogging, it is matter of people and their attitude to others.

Common name or unique name?

If your prospective new employer is Googling for you, it probably helps if your name is John Smith then you can deny everything. OTOH, if your name is Donovan Putz-Marionette then chances are they'll have you bang to rights.

too much fuss

[sarcastic half-joking mode on]

Saying, writing, opening up to the wide audience your stupidity, wierdness, incompetence, intolerance, ignorance, unability to filter private information from useless public stuff, bad spelling, lack of imagination, lack of social life, bad or lacking love life, low skills in problem solving, bad opinions about certain companies, lacking technical skills, etc. etc. and you'd still expect a decent company to hire you ?

Thing is, on this planet, you can always be certain that there does indeed exist at least one person that is dumber than you. So, all you have to do is find that person and convince him/her to hire you.

If you can't imagine that some things in your life should be kept private (I'm not talking about kinky habits or any disgusting behavior and such, just simple things) then I can't imagine you working with or for me.

Blogging and Inevitable Disclosure

I was "googled" rather extensively for the last two jobs I've applied for. In both cases, I believe my blog has helped my case, rather than hurt it: I talk about interests that I have outside of work, about observations regarding the field that I'm in, and generally give people a more broad sense of who I am. By the same token, I've spent quite a bit of time in front of a computer searching for the names of interviewers as well; knowing their biases, interests, and frame of reference ahead of time puts you on a solid footing with them from the first introduction.

It's strange to see people who don't understand that they will be evaluated on the information they make available about themselves. When you enter an interview, you will be judged on what you say, how you react, your body language, and a host of other things; why on earth would publically-available information on the internet be any different? Similarly, if you provided internal documents or confidential information to the press, you'd be fired; why exactly would posting it on your blog for the world to see be treated differently?

When I was younger, I never posted online unless it was under a nom de plume, and as a result I behaved like a child; when there are no consequences for what you say, you say stupid and malicious things. As I matured, I stopped hiding behind those anonymous alter-egos, and starting taking responsibility (and a certain degree of pride) in the things I said online. You can find some incredibly dumb things that I posted while in university, and you can hopefully find some more insightful things posted more recently, but I'll accept responsibility for what you find, because that was me at the time I wrote it. Employers may make of that what they will, but they'll know enough about me to make a reasonable hiring decision.

Food for thought: tattoos applied during childhood can cause employment difficulties later in life. Ah, the joys of making permanent, lasting decisions before one has reached the level of maturity to properly balance those choices. Perhaps children should post under anonymous identities until they are better able to appreciate the effect their words can have later in life?

Interesting

I too, recently graduated and began working an internship, only I am allowed to blog about it and do. http://www.ravenengineering.net/blog/intern/rmetca lf/ [ravenengineering.net] I imagine working for the county gov't is significantly different than working for a mega corp. My friends that intern at Honeywell, can't discuss pretty much anything because its all trade secrets that Honeywell is afraid Garmin will steal.

What about when bloggers/MySpacers become parents?

Think about your kids digging up dirt on you one day.

you guys out to see

the young punk rockers tattooed in all their glory at a show. Looks good in the mix, but

I feel bad for them if anyone of them wakes up in 10 years and decides to be a square.

Re:I keep this in mind

Hmm, Someday we'll look back and wish we didnt lose the 1st amendment. I persons personal blog is a diary and shouldnt be use to against them. What is considered an inappropiate blog?