Literature Teeters on the Edge of a 'Gr8 Fall' 459
aicrules writes "Yahoo news is reporting that the great works of literature often read and discussed by the brighter of our up-and-comers could be the latest victim of reaching the lowest common denominator at the potential expense of everyone. The article describes the efforts of Dot Mobile to make such literary masterpieces as Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet more accessible. From the article, 'We are confident that our version of 'text' books will genuinely help thousands of students remember key plots and quotes, and raise up educational standards rather than decrease levels of literacy,'"
Teeters on the edge? (Score:5, Funny)
Here's a message for them: Lrn2RdFlBks. UGtMrFrmIt.
It's done in music already. (Score:2, Insightful)
If you can have a dumbed-down Bach or Beethoven as a ring tone on your phone, why not a dumbed down Jane Austen or Dostoyevsky on your bookshelf?
Re:It's done in music already. (Score:5, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It's done in music already. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:It's done in music already. (Score:5, Funny)
I guess Dostoevsky's The Idiot will be appropriately titled.
My personal favorite: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Teeters on the edge? (Score:5, Funny)
"Learn to read, fullbacks"? I hardly think it's fair to blame college sports.
The article certainly teeters... (Score:5, Funny)
From the Fine Article (and the summary):
'We are confident that our version of 'text' books will... raise up educational standards rather than decrease levels of literacy"
Wow, that's good news. I was afraid they would raise the standards down.
Re:The article certainly teeters... (Score:5, Insightful)
What use is it to teach kids about masterpieces of English literature without teaching them how to properly read them? As far as I'm concerned, this is doubleplusungood. You want kids to get more into Shakespeare? Take them to see a play, which is how Shakespeare intended us to experience his works! Hell, even watching BBC's Pride and Prejudice is better than "Evry1GtsMaryd."
Re:The article certainly teeters... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think we'll lose the classics, but I think we're heading toward a tiered society (if we're not there already) composed of the literate and well educated and the underclass who stay in non-thinking jobs, a lot like Metropolis.
Whenever I read news like this, I want to write Ray Bradbury and say I knew he was right from when I first read F451, and it's a damn shame he wasn't wrong.
Re:The article certainly teeters... (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, I'm sure he's gotten a few thousand versions of that letter by now.
Re:The article certainly teeters... (Score:4, Insightful)
There has never been a time or a place where this has not been the case. Literature, the arts and so on has always been a matter for a cultural "elite" (and I don't mean it in the republican/conservative sense) and the low-to-middle class people that aspire to it.
If an artform, or a particular piece of art, has genuine, lasting mass appeal, it is normally exorcized from the "canon" and not longer a part of that which you "should" aspire to know. The whole point of Great Literature (as opposed to great literature) is to separate Those Who Have Read It from the unwashed masses who cheerfully haven't.
Re:The article certainly teeters... (Score:4, Insightful)
Since when is thoughtless memorization of plots and quotes educational? Isn't the point of studying literature to learn how to think analytically, read between the lines, address social issues, and use language effectively?
I think teaching the "classics" is a bad approach to begin with. The classics are so out-of-touch with modern society and culture that the qualities that made them great at the time are almost completely lost on modern students unless they also invest huge amounts of time understanding the language and culture of the era. There's plenty of modern, current-day writing of outstanding quality, which could serve all the same instructional purposes while also actually being interesting and easily related to by students.
Re:The article certainly teeters... (Score:3, Insightful)
They are not out of touch with modern society, because so much of human society never changes. People are no more nor less pious, brutal, kind, evil, wise, or merciful than they ever wer
Re:Teeters on the edge? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Teeters on the edge? (Score:3, Funny)
+1, LOL
+1, OMG
+1, YA
+1, TEHW1N
-1, WTF
-1, STFU
-1, PWNED
Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:5, Insightful)
So we take something that's been used for humor, and use it for Cliffs Notes instead. Big whoop. No one is going to think that the summaries are the original works. I mean, anyone who has taken a logic class has come up with "2B v ~2B"
Although it does remind me of the time in high school when we were reading Romeo and Juliet aloud in class. I read Mercutio's "Queen Mab" speech, got through the whole thing, then looked at the footnotes, and had the reaction, "I said what?!?!?" (From then on, I read the footnotes with the text, not afterward.)
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:2)
The only way I got through the Bard's plays were Cliff's Notes.
The Cliff Notes were usually longer than the play itself, but you could follow the cliff notes.
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:2)
Then again, that was about 6 years ago, and I haven't bothered to read it since, and I'm also exaggerating, but still. Shakespeare was not diffi
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:2)
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:2)
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:5, Insightful)
A good troupe of actors with a good director can take even the archaic language of four centuries ago and perform it in a way that's easy to follow and, believe it or not, entertaining. Action, body language and inflection can do wonders for making the meaning clear.
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:3, Insightful)
A few years ago, my then-girlfriend dragged me to see Romeo + Juliet [imdb.com] (starring Leonardo DiCaprio and Claire Danes). As much as I hate to admit it, it was a fun movie. They used the dialog from the original - unedited - but it was exceedingly easy to follow.
A little bit of acting can go a long way. That movie would neve
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:3, Funny)
So, I guess any Shakespearean movie with either Keanu Reaves or Ben Afleck would be out of the question then? [shudders violently] "Avaunt ye horrible shadow!"
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm glad I did, because now I'm trying to get through Heidegger, but I think that was mostly because I finally could read/reason through all of Kant. Sure, I could have taken a short cut, but what is the point? I don't plan on reading Ann Rice my whole life, I'd much rather read something that makes me a better person, and doing this requires work.
The best ever is the one year, in college, where I got through all of Dostoevsky, Kafka, Camus, and the short fictions and plays of Sartre, all in the course of one lazy summer, on my own. Was some of it hard? Could I have quit and got the Cliff Notes, no, since I would feel like a moron, a cheater. I would have rather quit than that.
But this is coming from someone who has never touched a Cliffs note in their lives. Cliff Bars, though, thats a different story.
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:3, Insightful)
It can't take the place of actually reading (since your teacher probably has a copy of the Cliffs Notes), but it does make a good way to refresh your memory about the earlier content t
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:5, Funny)
For example, "The Bible:"
Credit where credit is due, I think I say that in the National Lampoon.
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:5, Funny)
You can not truly appreciate Shakespeare until you've read him in the original COBOL.
Always a critic... (Score:3, Funny)
if ( $question = ( 2B || !(2B) ) ) {
if ($mind[SlingsArrows] > $mind[TakeArms]) {
die()
sleep()
}
}
please see Carl of you need pointers on developing clean code. */
Shakespere *was* pop culture (Score:3, Interesting)
He had theatres to fill and Groundlings to amuse. The PhD thesies on his writing came much, much later.
DG
Re:Shakespere *was* pop culture (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:3, Funny)
I've no idea wh
Re:Remember Hamlet in 15 minutes? (Score:3, Informative)
Heck, millions of people still read the King James version of the Bible, which was written by Shakespeare's contemporaries. That's a lot of people who are still exposed to that version of the language on a regular basis.
Give i
OMFG!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
The article describes the efforts of Dot Mobile to make such literary masterpieces as Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet more accessible.
Perhaps Professor Sutherland ought to check out the following links:
Romeo & Juliet [myby.co.uk]
Hamlet [myby.co.uk]
Kudos to Chris Coutts...they're still damned funny, although the idea of Professor Sutherland pitching this sort of thing for real is just ludicrous. As the epitath on the Bard's tombstone reads:Does this mean that Professor Sutherland is cursed, since he's caused Shakespeare's corpse to spin at such a rapid rate? ^_^
r0m30, r0m30 (Score:5, Funny)
I'm also confident (Score:2)
Re:I'm also confident (Score:2)
I predict (Score:5, Insightful)
And who will go read the real thing after getting one of these?
In fact I also will go out on a limb and predict that this marketing ploy by the cell phone company will fail. Kids will not want these phones and that will greatly overwhelm the couple idiot parents who might think this would be a good idea.
Re:I predict (Score:4, Insightful)
Reworking great literature for the retard/ADD set is not something I'd consider groundbreaking or necessary.
Re:I predict (Score:2)
Re:I predict (Score:2)
Re:I predict (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you may have found the silver lining...
However, if anything I think kids should be watching movie adaptations of Shakespeare. Shakespeare wrote plays. There were intended to be acted out, not read. I've never liked reading it so much as watching it. Especiallly those directed by Kenneth Branagh [imdb.com].
Learn from the times man. (Score:5, Interesting)
Can you imagine a more violent game than Romeo and Juliet?
Two gang waring mafia type families and a plot where the two main characters die?
Have the full text and add a game requirement that you have to talk to people with the accent and all. actually walk up to people and ask them questions and make statements that forward the game, rather than the standard now where you just button mash to get through the plot and power up.
Mix the two areas, good games need good plot, and good books need to be read by later generations.
of course! (Score:3, Funny)
well (Score:5, Funny)
What's that game called again? (Score:4, Insightful)
I can't understand the vast numbers of kids and people my age even that write with such sheer illiteracy that it makes me think twice about talking to them. Should I really expect someone who asks "How RU", to understand me when I talk about solar flares, or which car gets the best milage? Sure there are bright people that have given in to pretending they're typing on a cell phone, but why would someone try to initiate communication with other english reading person, with a line like "Hey Jou wat u doin?
Re:What's that game called again? (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, it's worse than that.
It's not merely substitution of "u" for "you". It's an entire dialect. If you read through it "aloud" (i.e. subvocalizing every word, in the order in which it's written), it's parsable as spoken English, but not as written English.
The frightening part is that it's an indication that we're indeed raising a generation of illiterates. People who make it through school in this state can (probably) read English, they can (definitely) speak English, but without punctuation or capitalization, they're incapable of writing it.
(random googling ensues... revealing the following representative sample that appears to discuss the physics/animation of a computer basketball game)
Stick a few commas and periods and capitals in there and it's essentially a machine-generated transcript of the following spoken English:
The punctuation and capitalization cues aren't strictly necessary to make sense of it, but their presence enables a brain to quickly scan over the passage without having to read it as though it were dialogue on a script.
Net effect: People who write English can have their ideas read and digested more rapidly than people who write in txtspeak.
But if we're moving to a postliterate society, that might not be such a hindrance for the illiterates. If you can read English quickly (because most of the written English you'll encounter still contains punctuation/capitalization), but are never required to write English (because omnipresent voice/video messaging has replaced email as a means of communication), maybe it doesn't matter that you're half-illiterate.
Re:What's that game called again? (Score:3, Funny)
This reminds me of my favorite argument for the use of the serial comma:
"Dedication: This book is dedicated to my parents, God and Ayn Rand."
Re:English according to Chaucer (Score:3, Interesting)
For example, if you take the average person on this site, you'll tend to get passable to good grammer and spell
Cliff's Notes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cliff's Notes? (Score:2)
This has very real effects, one easily comes to mind -- why do you think we get subjected to all these crappy movies? Or rather, why do you think so many people are willing to spend so much mon
Re:Cliff's Notes? (Score:2)
Granted, I've been known to use CNs before (especially for Moby Dick), but at least those volumes explain the book. MadwyfSetsFyr2Haus says nothing for Jane Eyre.
How is "memorizing" plots helpful? (Score:2, Insightful)
The plots cannot be taken out of context from the book they are presented in, for example here is the "plot" of animal farm:
Animals overthrow cruel/greedy humans to try to set up utopian society, true believers in the revolution pushed out, some use revolution for own goals, end up just like humans
Doesn't do the book much justice(not to m
Re:How is "memorizing" plots helpful? (Score:2)
How about "All animals are equal, some are more equal than others?"
Re:How is "memorizing" plots helpful? (Score:2)
Re:How is "memorizing" plots helpful? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How is "memorizing" plots helpful? (Score:2)
Re:How is "memorizing" plots helpful? (Score:3, Insightful)
Let them fail. This sort of reasoning is how we get drones into our society, these idgets who care about nothing, and are perfectly happy watching TV all day, eating bon bons, while their children go blow other kids away.
The sky is falling! (Score:5, Insightful)
Then and now (Score:2)
There's a crucial difference between then and now. Then, rapid communication was written -- as in, a letter or a phone call. I would guess that writers wrote to the best of their ability to get the point across, or at least spelled out words correctly. The culture of intentional "l337 sp43k" was most likely small.
On the other hand, kids now use this language more frequently - and it's leaking into school essays, assignments and homework. During my most recent teaching stint, kids simply replaced "you" wit
Doesn't every frickin' generation go through this? (Score:2)
Alarmist noise meant to freak people out or push a point of view.
I mean am I wrong or does this seem like just another re-hash of the old tv/computers/comic books/gore movies and porn will rot your brain noise?
Re:Doesn't every frickin' generation go through th (Score:2)
I mean am I wrong or does this seem like just another re-hash of the old tv/computers/comic books/gore movies and porn will rot your brain noise?
The day my comic books and porn start having things like "'lolz ur funny' she sed az a d00d sed a joke," then I'll agree. Last I checked, even Penthouse letters used proper grammar and spelling.
I'd rather have my kid learn from a properly written comic book than haX0r-speekish Shakespeare.
Re:Doesn't every frickin' generation go through th (Score:3, Interesting)
http://1337hax0r.com/ [1337hax0r.com] the URL there wouldn't have made sense 10 years ago, now it does
Plot, summary or more...? (Score:2)
So the scary thing is that plot is emphasized as the important part of reading -- of literature. Is it? Let's consider that reading a book teaches us language, teaches us history and teaches us, above all, how to (or not to) think.
So when some e-book comes along that bows down to the quick-speak of IM counterculture, let's stop to ask ourselves just why the product is harmful. What is it that we want our population to learn through reading? Granted that not everyone is going to pick up Anna Karenna. But f
Not necessarily a bad thing (Score:4, Informative)
While I am sure there will be plenty of purists out there that will be up in arms at this I think it might be quite a good thing. Anything that gets people interested in reading and expanding their mind has got to be good even if it means dumbing down some old masterpieces to get them interested. What concerns me about this, however, is their stated reason for doing it:
remember key plots and quotes, and raise up educational standards
Surely remembering plots and quotes isn't why we get our students to read these works. Many modern works have plots that are just a involved, often more involved. Quotes are good if you're a bit dim and need to sound intelligent for 30 seconds but not a lot else.
As for their choice of material, well, I'm sure it will mostly be Shakespeare simce he's the only person most people seem to be able to name. That's a real shame because, personally, I don't enjoy reading Shakespeare. He wrote plays - plays are supposed to be watched. There are plenty of people who wrote books why not try promoting them instead?
Mr Hamlet (Score:2)
Is it good to suffer or is better to do something.
I am tierd .
I am sad.
I wonder what is about to happen
God it's noisy outside , I wonder if i will get bullied
Stop telling me what to do , I run my own life mum.
Wonder what else is out there .
if you are a Chicken , You suck!!!!
My girl friend dumped me , but I tell everyone she died .
Modernized spelling (Score:4, Insightful)
In more modern spelling this becomes:
Was this considered a radical watering-down, back in the day?
I've also considered what Shakespeare's plays would look like as IRC logs; I suspect such an approach would work at least as well as the blog version of Pepys' Diaries [pepysdiary.com]
Re:Modernized spelling (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Modernized spelling (Score:3, Informative)
Rtcl2long... (Score:2)
What? What do you mean that doesn't count as a real comment?
^======^
James Joyce Covered This (Score:2)
Maybe the intent was different. Joyce said of Finnegans Wake, "It took me 17 years to write it. It can take you 17 years to read it."
Offensive (Score:2)
Feh "books" (Score:2)
Disjointed tasks. (Score:2)
While I am all for the remixing of c
Reading Romeo and Juliet? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you are going to just bring in scripts for you class to read, why not It's A Wonderful Life or Star Wars? That is only half the experience, and one not meant to be thrust upon the audience.
What is being lost here? (Score:2, Interesting)
Remembering plot points? That's how you teach?! (Score:5, Insightful)
Memorizing a few plot points and quotes from Faulkner does absolutely squat for learning anything whatsoever about these works of art. This isn't raising educational standards.
Turning Hamlet into a text message removes 100% of what makes it important. There's no point to it anymore at all.
Re:Remembering plot points? That's how you teach?! (Score:3, Insightful)
I studied them in literature class, and literature is without a doubt an art form.
Shakespeare sucks... Oh my god he sucks (Score:2)
Go read it yourself, make up your own mind. If you can get to the end... ALL ON YOUR OWN... and enjoy it then, maybe he doesn't suck very badly.
Otherwise... There's mountains of understandable, readable books, watchable plays out there. Leave Shakespeare in the grave he deserves to be in.
Worshiping Literature (Score:2)
I mean there were developed as entertainment and phillosophical points of view, but they don't really have much to teach us other than the authors point of view and perhaps a perspective of the world they lived in.
Take Shakespear from example... I mean his works were specifically devolped to entertain an live audience of his era with comeday and tragedy and frankly the only rea
Blame the parents... (Score:2)
No one in my family was a reader. But reading was my escape from being a fat, ugly teenager and my parents didn't discourage me when I spent my allowance o
The Skinhead Hamlet (Score:5, Funny)
The literature is works of art (Score:3, Insightful)
It's like making renaissance paintings more accissible by rendering them in ascii art.
So What? (Score:4, Insightful)
High Literature is a type of art that appeals to a certain small class of people. This is great and fine for them but there is little reason to inflict it on those who don't enjoy it.
Ultimately the reasons given for reading literature simply don't apply to forcing great literature on unappreciative audiences. The reason we read literature rather than just essays is that it should entertain as it teaches. If the audience doesn't appreciate it then it fails at this task.
Reading literature under duress just generates resentment and dislike it doesn't encourage a lifelong love of literature. We would be better off choosing books that had action and other aspects the students liked but combined this with sophisticated issues and interesting questions. There is no objective reason Ender's game isn't just as appropriate to teach in class as Shakespeare and the students will like it way more.
Making students remember quotes is just dumb and if literature is taught well the students will *want* to read the books and notes or little helpers won't be relevant. If the book needs outside help or encourages the use of cliff notes then something is wrong with the course or the book isn't appropriate for the audience.
You should have said less... (Score:2)
Re:Garbage in Garbage Out (Score:2)
Re:Garbage in Garbage Out (Score:2)
Re:Garbage in Garbage Out (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, maybe I will say more.
I've only read a very small sampling of great literature. A bit of Charles Dickens, Charlotte and Emily Bronte, Leo Tolstoy, and a few others. I can't claim to be well-read in this regard.
However, the little that I have read has had substantial benefit to me. I have been exposed to life circumstances, themes, thoughts, philosophies in a depth that has expanded my ability to see outside my own limited experiences, empathize and sympathize with other people, see the possibility that I might be wrong or prejudiced. As well, my use of language has improved in terms of vocabulary, style and metaphor.
There is no way that anyone can convince me that simplifying and making this literature "more accessible" is in any way beneficial except in the most limited fact-retention sense. Knowing the facts of a plot comes nowhere close to experiencing the expression of those facts in a sublime piece of literature.
That said, I appreciate the sentiment. I think there is a lot of legitimate concern that students do not get exposed to these sorts of literary works. However, this approach is at best a bandaid over a minor symptom of a much deeper problem. How much better would it be to address the real problems of the quality of our education and child-raising? I'm not saying that I know the real solution... that is beyond me... but I can see when something is missing the mark, and possibly harmful.
I Am Absolutely Bereft Of Gorm (Score:3, Funny)
joined channel #unixgurus [userfriendly.org]
sid060> did you know that the abbreviations you and your "homeys" use are codes from the mainframe days?
Rayn3> what do u mean?
sid060> Well... I don't know if I should tell...
Rayn3> u have 2. give an example.
sid060> Okay. "how r u" is code for "I am absolutely bereft of gorm."
Rayn3> r u seri^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H
Re:Garbage in Garbage Out (Score:2)
Because the real reason anyone reads Shakespeare is for the plot. For fuck's sake.
and raise up educational standards rather than decrease levels of literacy,
As opposed to "raise down educational standards"*. This fellow's command of English was clearly enhanced by his close call with Shakepeare's work.
How nice that these works are being rewritten for the attention deficit set.
*Hint: Whe
Re:Classics (Score:3, Insightful)
We can't have progress without a solid foundation of knowledge upon which to build.
SiO2
Re:Classics (Score:5, Insightful)
Because "the classics", if not actually defining our culture, give us a common foundation on which to build a shared cultural experience.
Did a dead semi-anonymous 16th century hack pop-poet/playwright really create the best-ever-and-always set of English writings? Of course not! He wrote the equivalent of "Seinfeld" for the televidiots of his day. But like it or not, that does give us a certain common ground on which to relate to one another socially. We like "lowbrow" humor. We prefer the good guy to win. We want blood and guts and gore and veins in our teeth. We enjoy Moe getting poked in the eyes by Larry. We want to see the queen kiss a Federline, everyone to tragically die at the end, and the servants to get away with a good practical joke on their bosses.
Now, based on the above, does it commit some grievous sin to "translate" the works of this ancient hack into a more modern form? To that, I would say no, with a qualification - One can modernize without butchering. Converting Hamlet to the style of texting fails to make the work more accessible, instead tailoring it to a very niche subculture of rebellion-without-a-clue (and likely a short-lived subculture at that, as it only even exists as the fleeting intersection of a technological limitation with an economic convenience).
Re:Ebonics anyone? (Score:2)
Ebonics was a social failure because of two things: it tried to artificially change language and it was rather racist. This will fail for mainly just the first reason.
Language oddities used with text messages or "elite" speek are often said to be bastardizations for the English language. Well, how do you suppose the English language come about? Magic?
Languages evolve; sometimes rather qui
You read Shakespeare for the ideas behind stories (Score:3, Insightful)