US Navy Creates MMO To Fight Somali Pirates 318
dotarray writes "Ever wanted to fight Somali pirates without leaving the safety of your computer? Well, believe it or not, the United States Navy could use your help. MMOWGLI is a new video game project (that's Massive Multiplayer Online WarGame Leveraging the Internet, by the way) that is being used to crowdsource ideas on how to fight off maritime terrorists and hopefully secure the Horn of Africa."
Too complex (Score:3, Insightful)
This game is too complex. To stop piracy: just sink these damned pirates. When they will all be in the depths of the sea the problem will be solved.
One pirate in the depths of the sea is pollution, all the pirates in the depths of the sea is the solution.
Re:Too complex (Score:5, Insightful)
This game is too complex. To stop piracy: just sink these damned pirates. When they will all be in the depths of the sea the problem will be solved.
Reality IS complex; people in general don't turn to crime or become terrorists simply because they are evil - if you start smply killing "the evildoers" without addressing the reason why they got to be that. And the solution is not likely to involve dumping an American style reality-show democracy on them. We really need to solve issues of social/political need and instability in the whole of Africa.
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...and Iraq/Afghanistan. Going in and shooting people isn't really really helping there.
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How much history do you know, regarding Somalia? What do you know of the people?
You MIGHT compare them with the America's Apache. If you even know anything about the Apache. The thing they have in common is, they are superb fighters, and have been for a long time, for basically the same reasons. They live in a hostile, barren land, and they are surrounded by peoples who have been trying to kill them off for thousands of years. Their history demanded that they fight or die, so they fought.
The major diff
Americans (Score:2)
" undisciplined, ungovernable people on their hands, who they are attempting to govern"
"didn't understand government, and wanted nothing to do with it"
" The Brits left in disgust, and things are basically unchanged since then."
Sounds like Americans.
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Thanks :)
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"The Apache were superb, truly skilled in tactics and in individual effectiveness."
Basically what I said. Superb fighters. Not great strategists, but superb fighters.
And, obviously, you are unaware of Somalian HISTORY. I DID NOT compare today's pirates to yesterday's Apache - I compared their HISTORY to the Apache. Did the Somali, or did the Somali not, beat the living shit out of the Brits, who had better technology, better logistics, and much more money to throw at the problem? Do you think that toda
Re:Too complex (Score:4, Insightful)
"We really need to solve issues of social/political need and instability in the whole of Africa."
Do WE really? Personally, as a citizen the USA, I'm kind of sick of us intervening everywhere. Take the current situation in Libya for example - why isn't the Arab League handling it?
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The Arab leagues is made of dictators and kings who demand absolute control. They rule through fear.
Fear only works so long in controlling a given population. people get tired of being afraid and fight back preferring death over dealing with a given dictator.
Right now the people after 30 years are tired of being afraid and are currently tossing their leaders out the door the best they can. Jordan is doing so by appeasing them, others are using force.
Britian is an excellent example of a King(or queen) app
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Agreed, let them destroy themselves. just mark those waters as dangerous and allow freighters to arm themselves to the teeth and tell freighters to "blow out of the water" any boat that get's within 2000 feet of them.
Suddenly the pirate problem goes away when you launch harpoon missiles at fishing boats and chum the water with the pirates innards.
Yes, I am recommending overreaction. no bullets, a minimum of 500 pounds of explosive as your first response. no pieces of the ship left larger than 3 inches
Re:Too complex (Score:5, Insightful)
So, history suggests that the solution that the poster you responded to recommended works. History, also, suggests that trying to "solve issues of social/political need and instability" does not work. Historically, when outside groups try to solve a problem by addressing the "social/political root causes" of the problem, the problem gets worse. On the other hand, when those same outside groups drive up the costs and drive down the rewards of the problem behavior, the problem behavior diminishes. Often times, when the problem behavior is no longer a viable response to the "social/political root causes" the people who before went into the problem behavior act to correct the "root cause" of the behavior.
Re:Too complex (Score:5, Insightful)
I was thinking the exact opposite. The game is too simple. There are just variations on combat missions to perform. There's no option to protect Somalian fisheries from the foreign trawlers that have taken advantage of the lack of government. There's no option to investigate foreign vessels dumping toxic materials in Somali waters.
Basically the game has no way to long term plan. Instead it's all about finding ways to "kill em faster than they can be made". An approach that's never worked.
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I believe the carthaginians would disagree.
That would not work (Score:4, Insightful)
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Invade Iceland (Score:2)
Invade Iceland for operating pirate training camps [youtube.com] (and for crimes against good taste)!
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Piracy is and always will be an economic problem. Right now the pirates make more money easier than CEO's do in the USA.
Think about it work for 6 months get one or two hundred thousand dollars. you get to shoot guns lots of water and if you get surrounded you surrender peacefully they feed you then release you no harm no foul, no courts.
To stop Piracy you have to find where they come from and fix that economic mess. It is cheaper to pay them off so that is what is happening. Since governments take to lo
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Ahh, the Civilization solution to barbarians: kill them all, take their gold, and burn down their stupid huts so that they can't easily come back and chase away your workers that are just trying to plant some corn.
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Actually they would be the precipitate.. unless we ground them up first so they will dissolve into the sea water easier...
I am NOT against grinding them all up.
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It's not a problem. You sell cruises to rednecks on decoy target ships armed with .50 cal machine guns. You could cover the whole coast in good 'ol boys paying for the chance to smoke some pirates with their buddies. The solution will pay for itself.
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That's what they currently try to do but the pirates move too fast
Faster than a helicopter? Faster than a destroyer that can do almost 40 kts (or probably better than 40 kts, although classified)? Yeah it's a big ocean, which is why there are satellites and airborne/over the horizon radars and other little tricks. If a major power wanted to eradicate piracy it could easily do so. What is lacking is the political will. It's just not that big of a deal, especially when corporations are rolling over and paying ransom.
arm the ships with miniguns (Score:2)
brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..... bbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Problem fixed.
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The problem is: the ships would not be allowed in most marines. I am quite certain you can't simply float a ship with a large mounted gun in the harbor of Rotterdam for example, and I do not think most other countries would be welcoming you.
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Theoretically you could remove said gun and transfer it to a US Navy ship, but I have to wonder about the practicality of that.
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First, the pirates don't care if you shiver. Second, the climate where this piracy takes place is warm all year. Third, miniguns would, if anything, heat the surrounding air, albeit not in a way noticeable to most people in the area. Fourth, pirates *want* their timbers to be shivered anyway.
LFG Pirate Den 2/5 need healer (Score:3)
Or give the pirates WoW subs. They'll be too busy with the rep grind to do anything else
And??? (Score:3)
Where's the "nuke the site from orbit" button?
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Mothballed along with "just bring a battleship near shore and flatten all potential harbors"
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MJWX: Again...
Sgt Kokonface: LOL PWND noob
Dixin hoars: I can haz ur container ship.
using MMOWGLI to fight Africans? (Score:5, Funny)
Rudyard Kipling would be pissed.
Arr? (Score:2, Insightful)
JckSparrow logged on.
JSprrow12 logged off.
JackSparroz logged on.
JackSpzrrz logged on.
JackSparrow323 says: "But why is the rum gone?"
Jacksparrow1337 says:" HARRRRR"!
Just a summary of how it'll go.
The problem is a lack of will power (Score:5, Informative)
I was with one of the first groups that 'went out to fight pirates' I was with the coast guard, traveling on a Dutch oiler is support of a bunch of navy and coast guard coast guard patrol craft that were supposed to take on the pirates. At one time we knew the location of 7 ships whose crew were actively being held hostage. What did we do? Absolutely NOTHING. At the time all the hostages were Indian of Filipino, and none of the vessels flew a U.S. flag. Also, were were always worried about invading Somali territorial waters (TTW).
One of the problems was that we had three different services from two different countries operating under 3 different combined task forces. We also had 2 Navy lawyers on-board, where were there to make sure we didn't violate any sovereign territory (I kid you not).
Every time someone wanted to like maybe do something, we had to run it by three different chains of command plus the JAG.
If you want to fight pirates, fight pirates don't play games (MMO's). Fighting pirates (unlike fighting an imaginary war on terror) is something that the whole world can get behind. No-one would really care if we invade Somali TTW in order to kill pirates. This was about 5 years ago. At the time perhaps little bit of force could have made a huge difference. My understanding is that the Somalis have gotten a lot more organized in the time. But I really don't know. I no longer am in the service, but somehow I doubt that the U.S. military has (gotten more organized). With that said, I think the U.S. Navy could probably win a war with Somali pirates. It is just that the U.S. Navy is more worried about an incident where say a 20 people die trying to rescue the fillipino crew from a non u.s. flagged vessel. Heaven forbid some of the innocent crew members get killed in the rescue operation.
Providing every crew member of a vessel going through the area with access to a rifle would probably go a long way to combat the problem.
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We also had 2 Navy lawyers on-board
Was one of them an ex-tomcat pilot, who picked up naval law because of his night blindness, and the other a slightly unconventional but seriously hot chick?
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I know that chick. She keeps telling me I need to get hooked up to an e-meter and need my body thetans purged.
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No, one was pretending to be blind, and the other was named Cherith Cutestory [wikia.com].
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I have zero idea who AC is, or how truthful he is - but he describes the single best way to deal with pirates. Put a killer team on the lucrative targets, and kill the damned pirates when they get close enough. It works. No fuss, no muss, no repeat offenders, no fortunes spent on idiot lawyers.
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See, that's the problem. You see it as a legal problem, when in reality, it's a military problem. When the pirates are going about in armed vessels and attacking passersby, it's a military problem. It doesn't take a lawyer to understand that - it takes a lawyer to obfuscate it.
Oh - I'm sure those Navy lawyers are paid. I pay them, and so do you if you're an American citizen. I don't much like the idea of subsidizing lawyers who make a military problem more complex than it need be.
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"The lawyers were from the Navy, I doubt they were paid for."
Three is one constant in the universe that is even more solid than any other...
Lawyers are NEVER free... they cost, they cost a lot.
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The legal issues are what make counter-piracy hard (there are other factors, of course). That's setting yourself up for failure, though, if you have to work through the rules of engagement for three different countries. The Navy works very hard to make sure its actions are in line with US and UN law, hence the JAG presence. It sucks from a warfighter's perspective, but the fact is that legal conduct goes a long way toward enabling what the Navy does. It's pretty easier to ignore the idiots that like to
The problem is Somalia (Score:3)
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If we want peace on these coast, we need to have a police that really enforces every law. Some Somali pirate groups began as a vigilante group to prevent the dumping of toxic wastes (including nuclear wastes) off their coasts. (it is a little mafia business that is being judged in Italy by the
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Simple solution. Kill all the lawyers.
We all know that our forces are hamstrung by "rules of engagement", yada yada yada. I'm in complete agreement with you. All the naval forces in the area - China, Spain, US, UK, France, ALL of them should be inspecting all boats and ships. When they find a band of men aboard a ship or boat who are armed, take them into custody and sink their boat, incarcerate them for a few years while one or another court system deals with them, and let them go when they are old men
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I think you will find it was Shakespeare who said "the first thing we do is kill all the lawyers!"
Sometimes the old ways are the best!
Most likely, some douchebag attorney will tell you how you are interpreting that line incorrectly. I'm here to pre-emptively say right on [spectacle.org]!
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Um, do you mean the pirates are ordinary people like you and me?
Or did you confuse "Somalian pirates" with "Afghans"?
MMO, really? (Score:3)
i really doubt teabagging and grieffing the pirates is gonne be the solution.
Also, i agree with some earlier posters, just sink the damn pirates, the only modification i propose is leaving one pirate from every ship alone, to return home and tell the other would-be pirates of what happens to pirates. But you can just set that one adrift in a life-raft somewhere near the cost, the rest can be made to walk the plank after seeing their ship burned and sunk.
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i really doubt teabagging and grieffing the pirates is gonne be the solution.
One word: strafing.
Or splash damage.
"terrorists" (Score:3, Insightful)
Now "piss poor fishing men who had their fishing grounds ravaged by international fishing-fleets and turned pirates because of that" have become "terrorists".
The pirates better (Score:2)
What's the problem? (Score:2, Flamebait)
There is no reason for this poorly equipped scum to be any sort of threat to civilian shipping. Just blow the pirates out of the water. Use normal warships. Use air surveillance, Use Q-ships. Put armed marines on civilian ships. In short, use all the standard naval strategies for commerce protection. Make it a death sentence to attack civilian traffic, and the problem will end.
The only reason there is any sort of problem is the weird desire to treat the pirates gently.
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First, try making it a death sentence to drive Somali fishermen to starvation by overfishing Somali territorial waters, and make it a death sentence to dump toxic waste in their waters.
If a people are being exterminated, they will fight.
Forgot the Marines' Hymn? (Score:5, Informative)
the American Navy and Marine Corp have their root in the fight against Barbary Coast pirates in the Mediterranean Sea, where the solution was to bring the fight on land to deny to pirates access to the sea lanes. In short: sink the ships, ANY of them, on the whole coast, and watch the somalis try to walk their way to the targets. What part of "to the coast of Tripoli" baffles you?
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What part of "to the coast of Tripoli" baffles you?
Shores, bubba. That's "to the shores of Tripoli". Sheesh.
C'mon, you corrected a rant like that? I bet you're the guy who bitched because Blutarski mentioned the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor.
Sic the RIAA on them (Score:3)
Maybe they'll have better luck fighting that kind of piracy.
Oh the irony (Score:2)
Click the link and a pdf opens with a wonderful graphic on the front... a somewhat familiar graphic....
So, they want to fight piracy by stealing the cover off of the pirates of the Caribbean movie?
Fight pirates... with piracy!
Terrorists? (Score:2)
Somali pirates are not terrorists.Terrorists are individuals or organizations that use force to advance a political agenda. The Somali pirates are only in it for the money. In fact, they are not even proper pirates. They rarely plunder the goods on the captured ships, usually they take just the salary money in ship's safes. They also mostly hold the ships and crews to ransom since shipping companies always pay as a matter of convenience. So, stop applying the label terrorists to everything.
Learn some naval history (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem of the US Navy is that it is not set up to combat piracy economically. Its ships and munitions are too expensive to operate, and its systems are intended to detect tactical level threats, not identify which of a hundred similar fishing boats is in fact a pirate boat. It would probably be cheaper and more effective just to give the pirates reasonably well paid jobs, lack of which explains why they are involved in piracy in the first place.
In this country, General Wade was once despatched with an army to deal with the rebellious, raiding Highlanders. When he got there he decided that the problem was poverty. He set them to building roads in the Highlands, bringing trade to the area. It worked. Later, the Caledonian Canal was built for much the same reason: it wasn't economic as a canal but it brought employment and opportunity. These are the examples that the US should be looking at.
Terrorists? (Score:3)
Can we stop overusing the word terrorists? They're pirates and criminals, nothing more. Are they committing "a violent act or an act dangerous to human life that is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State, and appears intended
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government and by assassination or kidnapping."
(according to the definition of "terrorism" defined by the US Congress)
All violent crime is terrorism (Score:2)
Rules of Engagement (Score:2)
There's no need to waste time by playing games. Change the rules of engagement to allow anyone merely being approached by pirates (the gun-toting in small water craft type) to fire at will.
Take a 3-pronged approach (Score:3)
1.Do something like what they did in the second world and escort civilian ships through the (relatively small) danger zone. Any pirates that show up get to find out just what the massive deck gun or missile launcher of a navy destroyer does to a small pirate boat. Enough pirates will get back to Somalia and tell all their pirate buddies about it that many will think twice about taking the risk.
Or another alternative would be to provide guns (or armed officers) on shops as they enter the danger zone and remove them when they leave. Any pirates that try to board get shot at with a large caliber rifle. I am not a Somali pirate but I suspect even Somali pirates dont like being shot at (and possibly seriously injured or killed).
2.Apply international pressure on the government of Somalia to clean up its act and clear things out. Offer them incentives (foriegn aid, support to eliminate the warlords and guns or whatever else) if they are willing to clean up their country and stop the pirates.
and 3.Offer direct aid to the Somali people (aid that comes with checks to make sure it ends up in the hands of the right people and not the warlords). Find things the Somali fishermen-turned-pirates can use to earn a legitimate living. If they have enough money to live off without piracy, they are much less likely to take the risk (especially given #1 above).
These people arent terrorists, they have no political agenda, they are only in it because they feel like they have no other choice if they want to survive. So you attack in 3 ways, you increase the risks for the pirates (so that the risk vs reward equation changes), you offer them incentives to stop being pirates and you apply political pressure to the government to make it illegal (if it isn't already) and to enforce the law.
If the law in Somalia doesn't make piracy illegal, it should be changed. And it should specify that any pirates who are caught have their ships impounded by the government and destroyed/sunk/on-sold.
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Hang on, that sounds like heavy handed government intervention. Surely Somali offers a model of a better solution [youtube.com]
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Does Somlia have a government? I thought that this was the problem.
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1.Do something like what they did in the second world and escort civilian ships through the (relatively small) danger zone. Any pirates that show up get to find out just what the massive deck gun or missile launcher of a navy destroyer does to a small pirate boat. Enough pirates will get back to Somalia and tell all their pirate buddies about it that many will think twice about taking the risk.
The zone is not very small. Pirates strike half way to India and down by madagaskar. We are talking about an area about half the size of the USA to monitor and convoy ships through. In addition, convoys are not very efficient against pirates. Ship-to-ship missiles and deck cannons are designed to hit ships, not small motorboats... which means you have to get close to stop the pirates. Not an easy task if you have a convoy of perhaps 30 ships to watch over and the pirates show up with 10 boats. And once the
Talk to Indian Navy (Score:3)
They are having good success in recent times in dealing with these pirates.
Piracy was a big problem for India, as many of the ships registered in entire south and south east asia have a large contingent of India crew. So every time hijacking took place, a bunch of Indian nationals got caught in the crossfire.
To fix this problem, the Navy has started patrolling the international waters, and they have sunk quite a few pirate ships!
We Used to Have a Pretty Good Solution (Score:2)
You're controlling unmanned drones... (Score:3)
Stop protecting ships flying other flags. (Score:2)
Merchant Raiders (Score:2)
The could do that... (Score:2)
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the only music going in this game is by Toto.
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the only music going in this game is by Toto.
How can it be the Navy without an appearance by Kenny Loggins and/or the Village People?
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the only music going in this game is by Toto.
hold the line?
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No they couldn't. There's the requirements you are ignoring like "without invading Somalia". Sure we ignored that recently in Pakistan, but do you really want that to be the norm?
Protecting shipping in international waters is part of the Navy's job. It's in their god damn mission statement: "maintaining freedom of the seas".
Which other of their reasons for them existing do you want them to ignore?
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You mean it's not the norm already ? Could've fooled me !
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You clearly know neither the history nor the content of the UN Conventions of Law on the Sea. It's impressive, though, that you manage to spin a document to aid safety of navigation into a UN attempt to check unbridled American imperialism. You tip your hand, though; you won't get many people hating the US with that kind of sudden intensity.
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So, which parts of the rules on exclusive economic zones and the continental shelf documented in UNCLOS "aid safety of navigation"? You're embarrassing yourself.
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-- story so far --
Hazel: UNCLOS.
Dails: *armed with only ignorance and the Internet* That's about maritime safety! You're spinning!
Hazel: It has sections related to ownership on the seas. Let me highlight some for you.
Dails: But it has stuff about maritime safety in it!
In other news, a car is for holding cups because some cars have cup holders in them.
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(1) That's irrelevant to the Navy doing the job it exists for. The Navy does not set European or American policy.
(2) Sure freedom of the seas includes not letting the Nazi's control shipping, but that's hardly the exclusive meaning. It is broader than it should be - it should only include maintaining freedom of the seas for ships under an American flag, but that would probably be even worse in your "selective" complaint.
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(1) "I was only following orders". The Navy is a tool of the US government and cannot legitimately act without context.
(2) I have no problem with a country not wanting to be a policeman for the world.
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US does nothing, people complain that we can't do anything with our super-powerful navy. US does something, people complain that we're sticking our noses into blah blah. It's getting hard to give a shit about generally uninformed opinion in the face of piracy.
Somali MO: Attack unarmed vessel, capture crew, demand ransom, kill crew if no money transferred, steal ship, sell cargo.
US MO: Approach armed hijackers, negotiate first, offer to pay ransom, honor ransom negotiation if accepted, escort rescued ship'
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That is why we need to overreact. overreact so badly that the whiners of the world will be scared to say anything...
"American is not helping the pirate problem"
Launch a mirv 12, neutron bomb a 600 mile radius.
"America overreacted!"
Launch a Mirv12 nutron bomb a 600 mile radios centered on the home of the asshole that complained...
".,.... America is great... woooo!... where can we buy American flags to wave? please don't nuke us!"
That way all the infrastructure is safe and the area is clean to re-inhabit
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This is what the US is perceived to do already. This is also why suicide bombers exist: because people would rather die than be subject to US domination.
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There are only legal ramifications if there is some controlling legal authority with :
a interest in doing something about whatever happened in the first place
the resources and process in place to create some sort of finding others will see as legitimate
a workable amount of leverage to use against the party you find against.
Who is going punish the United States for violating Somali territory or acting against Somali citizens the rest of the world regards as pirates? The UN? nope first they probably can't
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To solve a problem, you look for a cause [hrw.org]. It has everything to do with American aggression: specifically, wanting to keep Ethiopia as an ally.
The piracy is a symptom and "oh we're just protecting the freedom of [oil tankers to carry our legitimately obtained oil over] the seas" is a hilarious excuse.
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Of course the Americans are ultimately hunting the pirates because they think it benefits their trade. That doesn't make it less beneficial.
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Through support for Ethiopia, America in large part contributed to the instability in Somalia which produced the pirates. To band-aid over the symptom of the disease you caused is less beneficial to everyone, including your own people.
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You may be right about that part. I just don't think we should excuse the pirates - they're not helping their countrymen and contribute to the corruption and instability themselves..
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If I took your property by force, it'd be OK to kill you if you tried to take some property from me because I'd just be concerning myself with my interests, right?
I just want to be clear about the basis on which you're arguing.
Re:Take the Israelian aproach (Score:4, Insightful)
4.1. Entire crew on captured ship killed, ship scuttled in revenge. Cameras get beautiful shots of small pieces of children scattered across burning remains of bombed village. Massive calls go for war crime tribunal for people who ordered strike on civilians. US loses essentially all political clout it had with "human rights issues" worldwide. Company that owned the ship/its insurers and teary wives and children of killed seamen go to court against US and likely win huge damages, as potential ransom costs but a small fraction of ship and its cargo's value.
How much would that cost? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Why only Somalians? (Score:4, Funny)
Why is USA fighting only somali pirates and not for example nigerian pirates? A cynical person might note that it's because Somalia's coast has oil.
Because we're working with this Nigerian prince who is helping us with our financial crisis. We've sent him the PIN for the Federal Reserve accounts and Obama's signature so that he can transfer some money over. Getting violent could fuck up the sweet, sweet payday that is coming any day now.
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An informed person might note that there is a whole lot of oil in the Niger Delta - somewhere around 30 billion barrels and 180 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. In fact, Nigeria is Africa's largest producer of oil - much larger than Libya, and it's the light sweet crude which the petroleum industry is always looking for.
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