First Nations Want Cellphone Revenue

Peacenik45 writes "The CBC is reporting that First Nations in Manitoba want compensation for every cell phone signal that passes through their land because it violates their airspace. The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs recently resolved to negotiate revenue sharing with Manitoba Telecom Services. Ovide Mercredi of the Grand Rapids First Nations says "When it comes to using airspace, it's like using our water and simply because there's no precedent doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do." This move may inspire First Nations in other provinces to follow suit."

Let's hope they win!

I want a precedent set. Then I will also sue for any cell phone waves passing over my private property. They are not the only ones with the "get everything and do nothing" attitude.

Re:Let's hope they win!

You're too late, at least in the US. That's already been tried in the US, with both broadcast radio and TV, as well as satellite TV (both big dish and pizza dish), and cable TV. To my knowledge, no private (non-government) entity has won even the first round of court using that argument. And complaints filed with the FCC have produced nothing but laughter.

Re:Let's hope they win!

In what way is property tax not the same as rent?

You have the ability to choose precisely to whom you pay rent. You can avoid really bad landlords, as well as landlords who would use, or you find out are using, your rent moneys in ways abhorrent to you. You have no such choice with the government. Additionally, when you pay rent, you receive in return a service you desire and are actively attempting to obtain (a place to stay.) When you pay property taxes, you receive what the government decides to give you; you have little (or no) control over your end. For instance, it is one thing for a taxpayer to receive the "service" of schooling if there are children in the house; it is entirely another when there aren't. It is one thing to pay a tax for television transponders if you watch broadcast television. It is entirely another if you don't. It is one thing to see religions exempted from property tax, thus increasing what you must pay, if you support religion. But if you don't... And so on.

So there are differences. The ability to do much about it, however, is questionable. The larger the area you live in, the less effective your vote is; likewise, the more you differ from the average citizen, the less powerful your vote is. Representative democracy as practiced in the US doesn't serve the minority except as an afterthought, or when cornered.

Re:Let's hope they win!

(because a rental company has bought up all the property in a particular area)

What weird area would that be, I wonder?

but in practical terms a landlord will be in a relative position of power in any such negotiation.

I don't know why you think so. If I talk to a salesman I don't consider him above me. I have a business offer, that's all. I'm not afraid of him. If he says no, it's his right, just as it is my right to say no. If we don't agree I will walk away, big deal.

It is often much easier for him go without a tenant than it is for you to go without somewhere to live.

Do not betray the fact that you never worked as a landlord. The ones that I know would laugh at this statement of yours. They spend 30% of their time sending reports to their bosses on how many units are rented and what are the prospects. If the number drops below a certain number they get kicked out - not that it's hard to find a replacement landlord these days... it's a largely unskilled job. Besides, you are free to return to him later and accept his offer, but he is not able to find you a week later and accept your offer. The renter has a tactical advantage.

You are just as free to try and renegotiate terms with the government.

I understand that you only restate your previous position, but your phrase is worth quoting :-)

Of course you do have another form of recourse with regard to government -- you do have a say in who makes up the government and what policies it pursues.

Huh? What country are you talking about here? Not the USA - the country of Compassionate Conservatives and Democrats Determined To Stop The War, I suppose? (I don't know what happens in .nz where you appear to be from; it could be a True Democracy for all I know.)

a government [...] still provides you with some means to renegotiate.

I would like to know some of them that still work. Soap, ballot and jury boxes have been tried to no effect. The last box is scary, and is not likely to help either. Got other ideas?

A government isn't inherently evil anymore than a landlord is.

A government has more control over you, including control that you personally haven't permitted the government to have - since you haven't signed any papers to that effect after you were born. Contracts with landlords are signed by you, and should be to mutual benefit of both parties, and they can be dissolved when they are no longer interesting. You can't dissolve a "contract" with your government, and this gives the government more chances to affect your life against your wishes.

Re:Let's hope they win!

Well, let's see..

a) It's a local tax, not a "US law," and some localities may not have property tax. States specify maximum taxes, but not minimum.

b) You might as well ask "what's the difference between my power bill and my gas bill?" The answer is what you get for your money. You aren't paying the government to use your own property; you're paying them for the services within their jurisdiction -- usually schools, water, roads, police, streetlights, etc.

c) It's a TAX. Likewise, try not paying your income tax and see what happens. That doesn't mean you don't have a right to earn a living, but you *also* have an obligation to help maintain our society.

d) "What happens" is usually that a lein is placed against your property, and that lein must be paid if/when the property is sold or transferred. In some localities, the worst thing that happens is that your name is printed in the local paper. In others, sale is forced, in which case you still get all the money after the government takes its cut.

So how is that like rent again, where you have nothing to show for your money, cannot transfer posession of the asset, and are liable for damages?

People who say you don't "own" the property are using very narrow definitions of the word "own." It could be argued that you don't own anything, since there are no guarantees that someone else won't take it away, and you forfeit all of it when you die. Such definitions are both impractical and misleading.

Re:

Are you ready to claim sovereign rights to your land?

A private land owner getting a decision like that is the kind of thing that would get the constitution amended in the U.S., and would make the Queen angry in Canada.

Re:Let's hope they win!

Are you ready to claim sovereign rights to your land?

Why not?

For a good discussion of that subject, see http://www.amazon.com/Good-Be-King-Foundation-Cons titutional/dp/1594110964/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-56272 96-5318468?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180583247&sr=1-1 [amazon.com]


A private land owner getting a decision like that is the kind of thing that would get the constitution amended in the U.S., and would make the Queen angry in Canada.

It doesn't matter what the Constitution says, or what the Queen thinks. Sovereign individuals are just that: sovereign. We are not subjects of the United States government. "We The (Sovereign) People" created the government, and it serves at our pleasure, and we can replace it, destroy it, or ignore it.

The only reason people obey laws and rulings they fundamentally disagree with is threat of force. And right now the US government (and it's accomplices at the State and Local levels) employ more men with guns than any individual can hope to overcome. But that doesn't change the underlying principles. We are all free, sovereign individuals, with absolutely inalienable rights, not subjects.

None of this is - btw - an argument against voluntarily forming associations (call the governments, or whatever) for various purposes where it makes sense for sovereign individuals to work in a communal fashion for the greater good of all. But the point is, any sort of construct of that nature is artificial, created, and cannot preempt the inalienable rights of Freemen.

Re:

The catch is that the EM bandwidth was actually auctioned off outside of their airspace, are they in turn not allowed to auction off that same bandwidth within their own airspace. When they are denied that opportunity, should they not receive compensation

Re:Let's hope they win!

What does it mean to "own land"?

What resource is being consumed?

So, pray, tell us, what resource belonging to First Nations is being consumed, so that you have less of it the signal has passed through? I will take one silver coin, and drop it on the ground, and you may comfort yourself with the sound of the money.

Re:What resource is being consumed?

So, pray, tell us, what resource belonging to First Nations is being consumed,

Not "consumed" per se, but cell phones generate electro-magnetic radiation - which kill off bees [slashdot.org] that are necessary for their survival. There's some pseudo-scientific reports that simply state the opposite and should be avoided as much as possible.

Re:What resource is being consumed?

The truth is often more complicated than the little news blurbs lead you to believe.

The Straight Dope - Disappearing Bees [straightdope.com]

Re:

NPR's Science Friday had an interview with a more plausible cause of colony collapses, it basically involves an intruder insect that is known to be only a small nuisance against African bees but with European bees, it causes a highly stressfull hormone fee

Re:What resource is being consumed?

NPR's Science Friday had an interview with a more plausible cause of colony collapses, it basically involves an intruder insect that is known to be only a small nuisance against African bees but with European bees, it causes a highly stressfull hormone feedback loop such that all the bees basically abandon the hive.

You can listen to this show here. [sciencefriday.com]

Re:What resource is being consumed?

Not "consumed" per se, but cell phones generate electro-magnetic radiation - which kill off bees that are necessary for their survival.

(From the FTA to which you linked:) One team of reseachers at Landau University in Germany discovered that if you put cell phones right next to beehives, some of the bees appear to become confused and have difficulty communicating. They don't die, and people who believe that this happens are apparently too lazy to even read the original research that started people discussing cell phones as a possible cause of CCD. Especially, it seems, when this sort of thing confirms pre-existing prejudices.

Standard boilerplate: In the event that the Parent is determined to be satirical in nature, congratulations! You got me.

devil's advocate says: spectrum

So, pray, tell us, what resource belonging to First Nations is being consumed, so that you have less of it the signal has passed through?

To play devil's advocate since half of the posters are bashing Indian people and the other half are foaming at the mouth about how stupid a concept this is...

...spectrum. When one person is using a certain chunk, another can't until their systems are sufficiently isolated enough. Given that the Canadian and US government sold (and continue to sell) this spectrum off for huge, huge chunks of money AND as a result regulate who can use what parts...why shouldn't they be allowed to do the same, if they are a sovereign nation? (if they're not, then that's a different matter.)

There are libertarian-esque viewpoints along the lines of, "oh, we shouldn't control the radio spectrum!" Well, then you end up with your neighbor's radio tower cutting off your portable phone or making your garage door open randomly, and your wireless network causes his car's remote lock fob to not work, and the local fire department's radios are suddenly useless because Bob's Plumbing Supply implemented a digital paging system for their truck fleet.

The world has already settled on cell phone frequencies, but the moral high ground goes to the tribes if Canada didn't consult with them when it signed on to the whole "sure, we'll make cell frequencies in Canada X, Y, and Z", if geography is such that signals from towers in Canada would penetrate to any degree into these territories.

Note, I said the moral high ground- not the practical high ground. The practical high ground goes of course to the cell phone industry and Canada...

Re:devil's advocate says: spectrum

"...if they are a sovereign nation?"

Let's see if the current POTUS can shed any light on that question...

"Tribal sovereignty means that; it's sovereign. I mean, you're a -- you've been given sovereignty, and you're viewed as a sovereign entity. And therefore the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities." -- GWB

Maori Spectrum Charitable Trust

Spot on. There's precedent [thtt.co.nz] in New Zealand for the sharing of spectrum sale revenue with the Maori population.

Ultimately, spectrum is a valuable shared resource like any other. If governments are making money from selling it and they have treaty obligations to indigenous populations they're probably going to have to share that revenue. Of course it all depends on how strong the original treaty is. In New Zealand, the Maori kicked some serious butt when the Poms arrived. They negotiated a fairly strong treaty and consequently they have significantly more legal rights than, for example, Australian Aborigines.

Re:What resource is being consumed?

That's easy to answer! Of course they would like to set up their own cell phone repeaters and collect the roaming fees for anyone using a cell phone near them!

--jeffk++

Re:What resource is being consumed?

> Do they have some demonstrable manner in which cell phone traffic through their airspace is harming them financially?

They are First Nations peoples, and are therefore not required to show any demonstrable harm from any thing any where at any time. They are born harmed, they live harmed, and they will die harmed, and as an evil white slave-driving colonizer you will pay them the required tribute no matter when your ancestors got here and you *damned* sure will keep your mouth shut when you get the invoice. Now get out your wallet, bend over, and shut your goddamned oppressor pie-hole.

By the way, the Right Reverend Sharpton gets here in an hour. Do you have your checkbook on you?

Fine.

Then they should pay for any cell phone signal originating from their territory, too.

And they should be charged for any rain water that evaporated from somewhere else.

Let's total up these charges...wow, looks like they come out even!

Re:

This reminds me of a situation I experienced when I lived in Wichita KS in the 90s.

On the east side of town, surrounded by Wichita, is a little city. Little, literally, like maybe four blocks long. If you find it and zoom in on google maps [google.com] it's complet

I almost hope they win...

Seems like a very similar argument could be made against laws that prohibit decrypting signals that pass through one's property

Fair is fair, but...

The cellphone companies should respond by treating any call that originates in a First Nations area as a "foreign" call wishing to access their network, and charge the appropriate fees and roaming charges.

Little known fact

Before Europeans came to North America, the native people would use every part of a broadcast signal, instead of wasting it like we do nowadays. Apparently they did the same thing with bison.

Now you know!

And next?

So, how about a seat tax on every airliner that passes over? A transit tax for every satellite that crosses their land? Hell, how about an "image" tax for every person who catches a glimpse of their land?

Indeed.

I want revenue sharing for all cell-phone signals that go through my body. WiFi too. Oh, and walktie talkies. And ham radios, AM, FM, and XM. You know what, since it's all just EM waves anyway, I also want revenue for each ray of light that bounces off me and onto anything else. Got a microwave oven? Pay up.

what happens now

1. no compensation ensues;
2. First Nations installs signal blockers;
3. the signals (using a feature that is inherent in this mode of communication) use neighbouring air to route around First Nations' air;
4. First Nations realise how stupid the whole exercise is

how did I forget...

4. First Nations realise how stupid the whole exercise is

5. ???;
6. NO profit.

Reality check.

Allow me to state that I am fully in favor of the Native American Nations taking advantage of their status and sucking money away from the surrounding governments. They've had a pretty shitty 500 years, and if they want to take money from dumb white folk at casinos, and let those same folk dodge cigarette taxes, more power to them.

That being said, WTF? They are asserting a "property right" that has been rejected via common, statutory, and international law time and time again. A nation can control physical objects that enter their airspace, but not energy. It's like RFA/Radio Marti - nations may not like broadcasting radio waves into their territory, but there isn't dick-all they can do about it except bitch and moan and try to jam it. But in this case, jamming would be a cure worse than the cause - their own members would lose the same access.

I mean, are they serious?

why stop there?

The Maori in New Zealand tried to claim airspace and even up where the satelites fly!

http://twm.co.nz/maorispace.htm [twm.co.nz]

"The group apparently told MPs that their air space extended even further - to the outer limits of the universe."

If you're going to be mad you might as well go the whole hog.

The ultimate time share

"The group apparently told MPs that their air space extended even further - to the outer limits of the universe."

So their property rights sweep across the universe as the earth rotates...which means for about 10 minutes a day each they own Antares and Rigel. Are they Sirius?

Commoditizing Air

On first glance it sounds ridiculous; however there is some precedence in the monetization of air:

-The state of New York has filed suit against Ohio for dumping pollution on them through the airwaves http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/mar/mar18a_0 5.html [state.ny.us].

-A portion of the electro-magnetic spectrum is going to be auctioned off in the U.S.
"the spectrum is a national resource that should be managed".
PDF: www.pff.org/issues-pubs/books/060309dacaspectrum1. 0.pdf
google cache: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:fH_s8JehCyEJ: www.pff.org/issues-pubs/books/060309dacaspectrum1. 0.pdf+lectro-magnetic+spectrum+auctioned&hl=en&ct= clnk&cd=1 [64.233.167.104]

If governments can make money off the spectrum then why not so-called "First Nation" governments? It really boils down to how much legal and economic authority Indians should have. And it deals with the ambiguity of a people who both want to claim their individuality and distinction from the rest of society, and still be apart of that society, especially when it comes to exploiting natural resources. It's pretty much politics as usual. Seems like the typical having-your-cake-and-eating-it-to mentality.

Ovide Mercredi

Funny story about Ovide Mercredi. I had the opportunity to meet him in 1992 (I think) when the Assembly of First Nations had their annual conference on Manitoulin Island, in Northern Ontario. At this time, he was the Grand Chief of the Assembly, and recogizable across the country. I grew up on Manitoulin and was working as a waiter/bartender at the hotel/restaurant where he and his entourage were staying during the conference, in a little town called Gore Bay.

We open up the dining room for dinner early for him and his group (about 10 people), as they had to get to a meeting. I get chosen to serve their table. Hey, it's as close to "celebrity" as I've ever seen in this place, so I consider it somewhat of an honour.

So I introduce myself to the table and run through the spiel. I hand everyone the menus, and then explain the day's "special" (not on the menu). I then explain that all entres come with your choice of pototoes. Now, the kitchen prepared different styles of potatoes: sometimes they were scalloped, or oven roasted, but most often the choices were mashed pototoes or a baked potato. I've been working at this place for a couple of summers now, so the words just flow off my tongue automatically. Plus, I'm a bit nervous, so I'm talking a bit faster than normal. On this afternoon, I say the same thing I've said hundreds of times: "All dinners come with your choice of pototoes: mashed or baked."

Mercredi is in the middle of sipping a glass of water. As I say this, he nearly sprays the water across the table, looks up at me, and blurts out, "What kind of potatoes!?"

Instantly, I (and the rest of the table) realize how the phrase "mashed or baked" can sound if you are being a little rushed!

Naturally, the table explodes with laughter, and I just about kill myself laughing too. They enjoyed the meal, but of course had to make a comment on how "creamy" the mashed potatoes were, and wanted to make sure that they weren't the "mashedorbaked" style of potatoes. :-)

I wonder if he still remembers that afternoon?

Am I the only one here...

who sees where they are coming from? Okay, so I just skimmed the article, but don't most native Americans thing that everything is sacred in some way, including the air? Okay, yes, most of us will sit here and laugh about this, but think about it. You are brought up in a culture where everything is sacred. The water, the earth, the soil, the trees, the air. Someone from another culture upstream decides to build a damn that alters the water and how it flows. Most of us would argue they have a reason for compensation. We come in and decide to cut down their trees, they would want compensation. These to us are physical things that we can put monatary value on. But the natives are seeing it not as just a physical thing, but as a spiritual thing. Extending this thinking to the air waves is not that far of a stretch. And the thought of radio waves are invading their aerospace is actually a really good argument. Most countries that I know of require any device that operates that puts out any type of radio waves or electromagnetic field to be licensed and regulated. Broadcasters and radio operators must pay for braodcast licenses. If there is an Indian nation where we are sending radio waves through their aerospace without paying them a licensing fee, the idea of paying for compensation suddenly does not become so outragious.

If natives really cared about 'their' land ...

If Natives really did care about 'their' land, air, water etc ... instead of suing for revenues from a harmless radio signal service that passes their way, and which they also use, they would be suing every company and government entity upwind from them that release any kind of pollution that drifts down to them.

This is just another native scam setup to suck money from the productive parts of society so they can stay on reserve.

The natives of canada pay no income tax, and are exempt from various sales taxes if the store is on a reserve. This alone should give them all the advantage they need to get ahead in life ... especially the thousands of them who use their status cards to buy high tax items like cigarettes tax free, just to sell them to anyone who asks at a great profit while still discounted from legal retail. Anyone remember the extreme example, where thousands of cases of cigarettes were smuggles between canada and the USA through native reserves to avoid taxes at great profit to native leaders?

In parts of canada, some native groups have legal rights that no one else in Canada has ... reverse apartheid. Here's a great right that some natives in Victoria BC have excersized for decades ... the right to theft and vandalism!

Members of the Songhees band have purchased boats and cars with no intention of paying for them. To avoid collection agencies and the police, the stolen items simply stay on the reserve. In the case of one stolen boat, i watched it sit overlooking Admirals Road rotting away unused for probably 20 years. The police won't go on the reserve ... so no collector is safe there either.

For all my life native children from the Songhees band have gotten their kicks by vandalising public and private property and then stepping back onto the reserve before the police can get them. 10's of thousands of dollars have been spent simply to repair a bus stop shelter on Craigflower road that got smashed week after week after week.

How about the Tsawwassen band, that 'sold' (land on reserver is never really sold) fully loaded condos on reserve land to anyone who'd pay, with a beautiful ocean view ... but oops, no water or sewer service because the band didnt get approval and permits for the hookups from the community supplying the services next door. Too bad for the buyers who put down deposits before construction. For a couple years they had to just hold it til they left the reserve. It was on reserve land, so no one went to jail for the scam.

All across canada native leaders have been caught in corruption scandals, where millions of dollars have been embezelled while the communities they lead and were supposed to administer with the money are forced to suffer ... but no, the native people don't go after their corrupt leaders, heck they aren't criminals, they're idols! so they go after the government and people of canada.

They have had plenty of time to adapt to the modern world, they sure don't hesitate to use any modern tool like the rest of us including the very cell phones they want to steal money from.

Maybe it's time for native bands in canada to pay back other native bands for stolen land. They'd have you believe they were entirely peaceful until Europeans came along ... But bands like the Haida on BC's coast had a long history of invading and pillaging neighbouring tribes. The Kwakuitl band suffered greatly from the Warrior lifestyle of the Haida. But I guess the Haida couldn't take their own medicine when they finally lost their land to the europeans. Maybe this is why the native groups of BC have literally claimed 125% of British Columbia in land claim disputes with the provincial and federal governments. They still can't agree amongst themselves who had taken over what land from what band before the europeans took it all.

Re:

They could put up jammers; that'd work nicely.

Hey, if I can be prosecuted for decoding satellite TV photons I'm not considered entitled to, why can't I object to photons being sent across my property?

Re:Desperation

More likely a very large tinfoil hat.

A tinfoil teepee?

Re:

a soverign nation is just that, they have every right they are capable of asserting. so i suppose they could start jamming so long as they produce their own electricity to keep the jammers running and consider that the best use of electricity.

Re:Stop the insanity.

I believe that is the same line of reasoning that caused their genocide...

Re:Stop the insanity.

Spike: I just can't take all this mamby pamby boo-hooing about the bloody Indians.

Willow: The preferred term is...

Spike: You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what Caesar did, and he's not going around saying, "I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it." The history of the world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story.

Re:

At least one person has a strong grasp on history and reality here.

Re:No genocide

It doesn't matter. It wasn't our generation, or our great great great great great grandparent's generation. But we're now paying for it like it was. And it's about time it stopped, because it is doing nobody any favours, least of all the native americans.

Re:

There's another name for your plan: equality. The tribes (or first nations or whatever) should be equal. The US should amend the Constitution to get rid of the special status for tribal lands and simply make them property of the folks who live there. No

Re:Stop the insanity.

Indian nations are a farcical anachronism who have greatly outlived their usefulness. The US and CA govs should just stop recognizing them. It's time to move out of the stone age people.

We (or our parents) had a choice of coming to North America. The Indian nations were here, recognized by the crown (Queen Vicky, lor bless her!) as sovereign nations within the British Empire and their land claims recognized. Then some trumped up judge in London decided to write law from the bench (a.k.a. "activist judge") that said that aboriginals had no claim to their land. In direct violation of treaties and the ruling of the privy council. The government of the day said "What harm could come?" Well, as New Zealand and Canada learned, acting on an invalid judgement is a legal time bomb and as a result, modern Supreme Courts in NZ and Canada have said "That ruling should have never happened -- the land claims and treaties are in tact".

This case isn't about what you think it. A bunch of commissions over the years pointed out the bloody obvious: life on the reserves suck because they were systematically neglected and restricted by the Indian Act on how they could earn a living and still be allowed to live on their land (Part of the goal was to erase the identities and land claims of the original Indian nations and "Westernize" them). So a couple years ago, the Feds and provincial ministers got together with the native bands to figure out how to change things so the native Indians can become self-sufficient and agreed to the Kelowna agreement [www.cbc.ca].

An agreement the current Conservative government unilaterally decided to break. This little stunt is probably going to be the first of many public actions. As some have said, it's going to be a long, hot summer in Canada this year...

(Note, I am not a Native Indian, but a real honest-to-goodness Indian (half actually), but I grew up with native Indians and have great sympathy for them. I also live in Canada and pay taxes so I'm not some unemployed, liberal hippie who won't have to pay for the settlements.

Re:Stop the insanity.

My stepfather is Cree, and I spend much of my childhood on reserves.

The indian act was supported by chiefs to keep women off their feet and in beds making babies so they could be beaten by their husbands. Look it up, it's true. Women in first nations are fighting for equality (still) but rarely get anywhere because they are (often quite literally) beaten back down.

I have to say that I have seen *NO* evidence of this, ever. Not once.

Life on reserves is difficult, and I would say that native people are the most disenfranchised in Canada (to Americans reading this: they get treated with the same respect that black people get treated in the southern states.) However, I have seen no evidence that spousal abuse happens on the scale you claim.

I'd go further. I believe that Native Americans are easily the most discriminated against racial group in North America, for evidence simply look at the media. Shows, movies, they always have their representative minority characters, black, indian, arabic, asian, it's not uncommon to see a very positive portrayal of a person from one of these groups in the media. Now think about portrayals of Natives, when is the last time you've seen a native actor in a movie or television show who isn't either some kind of medicine man, unsavory charcter from a reserve, or some other caricature?

There are ONLY TWO examples I can think of in all the media I've seen.

The most familiar to ./ers is probably Chakotay, unfortunately the character appeared to related more to South American indian tribes (the actor himself was American-Mexican, not an aboriginal), became a medicine man whenever his Native Americanness was brought up, and of course was on a space ship which kinda blows the rest of the relatability for native audiences (what, native kids are going to now pursue their dream of being a star ship captain?). The only other example I can think of is the police officer (Lorne Cardinal) off Corner Gas [imdb.com], sure he's not a complicated character by any means, it's a sitcom after all, but he's portrayed as a valuable member of the community who has a function other than jumping up to the audience and saying "Look at me! I'm native!".

My home town was next to a large reservation and as a result my high school had a lot of native students. There were some real nice smart kids among them, and I can just about guarantee that none of them went to university. Can't blame them of course, if you had never seen a single example of someone like you actually succeeding in an educated profession how hard would you pursue an education?

If people are really interested in native americans succeeding give them some damn role models! Have a doctor or lawyer show where a primary character is native, smart, and doesn't start talking about native rituals or ancient wisdom every chance they get. Heck even a native Brittney Spears or Brad Pitt to show them they can have sex appeal as natives (there's a reason that many native kids in my school started emulating black hip-hop culture).

Re:Will this ever end?

What a bunch of horsesh*t.

While I agree the current system doesn't work (in fact, it's absolute garbage which likely exacerbates the problem), pretty much everything else you've said is crap, IMO. I've been to quite a few reserves in Manitoba, and I don't see very many silver spoons in people's mouths. There are plenty of reserves that are absolute holes, where residents don't even own the crappy thirty year old run-down trailers they live in (not allowed to own them on some reserves, from my understanding). No sewage, no garbage pick up, no pavement, mud, no jobs, a laissez faire attitude by the RCMP toward crime (hence lots of juvenile vandalism, arson etc.). What's the option? Move to the city and get a job? Kind of tough when the immediate assumption by too many people, yourself included (I'd guess), is "lazy Indian expecting free hand outs.".

AFAICT, it isn't "current land claims they are proposing", but existing agreements they want honoured. Personally, I want my government to keep its word, even if it costs me. Some of these treaties are fairly recent (government agreements with natives during the world wars to get them to fight etc).

And since when did non-violent civil disobedience become "terrorist antics". You might as well paint Rosa Parks with the same brush.

If 45% of your taxes are largely going to the Indians, you need a new accountant (either that, or I need yours).

being single, white, male and in my thirties, I can speak out, but I have no recourse, I want my government to honour its agreements. Who knows, it might help.

Re:

Fuck white guilt. I don't feel guilty. I feel used.

Re:They have the right to do this

They already get their check every month, now they are trying to milk out more. I have plenty of sympathy and outrage over the past of the way they were treated, but after living near a reservation for three years in the here and now I've let alot of that slide. A large chunk of these people are stuck in the welfare cycle and are just looking for handouts. This is just the latest in a long line of schemes they've been trying on the government to get back what was never taken from the living in the first place. Also it really depends on what ever agreement the particular reservation has with the federal government. They are not sovereign nations, nor are they exempt from federal law.

Re:Moderating

Denial is rarely a good solution.