NYPD To Replace Motor Fleet With Electric Scooters 235
XueCast writes "A few days ago, the New York Police Department, one of the largest police forces in the US, announced that they are planning to make New York greener by replacing their gasoline motorcycle fleet with the super-quiet and energy efficient electric scooters from Vectrix.
NYPD said that they will first road test four electric scooters from the Rhode Island-based electric vehicle manufacturer next month, and if the road test is a success, NYPD said that they plan to order more electric scooters from Vectrix to replace their less-than-green motorcycle fleet."
misleading title (Score:3, Insightful)
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They aren't replacing Goldwings (which is good because a scooter that isn't even freeway legal is no replacement for a Goldwing). These scooters are replacing Piaggio and Yamaha scooters. In other words, they are spending $11K a pop to replace scooters that probably get between 60 and 80 mpg and they are trying to write it off as being "green" instead of just ridiculously wasteful.
Electric vehicles just aren't terribly practical yet, and replacing the most fuel efficient part of the fleet with something
Re:misleading title (Score:5, Funny)
Reminds me of a saying... (Score:2)
Wow those are really intimidating (Score:4, Funny)
Yes it's sarcasm.
They look so metrothexual.
Re:Wow those are really intimidating (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Wow those are really intimidating (Score:5, Interesting)
People are losing what little respect they once had for each other and for themselves, such respect being the foundation of law and order and societal stability; and they are now more and more turning to (and bowing to) the use of force instead, where in more civilized times their respect for each other or for themselves would have prevented them from turning to (or bowing to) such shows of force.
Re:Wow those are really intimidating (Score:5, Insightful)
When the USA turns into a failed state [wikipedia.org] like Sudan or Chad, where warlords & tribal leaders are fighting for control, then maybe you'll have something to complain about.
Crime rates have been trending downwards [usdoj.gov] for quite some time now. The only thing that's been trending upwards are arrests for drug violations.
P.S. When exactly are these "more civilized times" you're referring to?
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Isn't that crime in general that has been on the decrease and violent crime has been on an upward swing?
Later,
-Slashdot Junky
Re:Wow those are really intimidating (Score:4, Insightful)
People have been repeating that mantra since time immemorial.
Agreed. Every generation thinks the next one will be the end of civilization. There are some great quotes from ancient Greeks to the affect.
When the USA turns into a failed state like Sudan or Chad, where warlords & tribal leaders are fighting for control, then maybe you'll have something to complain about.
This is crap. The "we're not as bad as China" has never eld any water. You can always point to someone worse, but that in no way mitigates how bad things are in a given place and we should always be looking to make things better by pointing out what is wrong and trying to correct it. Trying to excuse problems by pointing to others is a logical fallacy.
Crime rates have been trending downwards for quite some time now. The only thing that's been trending upwards are arrests for drug violations.
Crime statistics aren't too meaningful by themselves because so many things are crimes, including things we all do (speeding, swearing in public, having sex when not married). Laws are enforced or not and that can significantly influence the "crime rate." What I care more about are violent crime rates, since these are the real, serious offenses. Violent crime rates started going up in 2005, and have increased significantly in both 2006 and 2007 according to the FBI. It is disturbing as a societal trend but it actually fits with sociologists predictions. The strongest correlation with violent crime is wealth disparity. Wealth disparity has been increasing in the US, with the middle class shrinking, the upper class staying about the same size, but becoming richer, and the lower class growing. This trend boomed in about 2001, and after about the usual 5 year lag, violent crime rates have begun to boom as well.
You know what I find really sad? One of the most effective programs to reduce wealth disparity is socialized healthcare. Health care costs are the number one cause of personal bankruptcy in the US and costs of health care are a significant expense for the poor. Despite the clear statistical indications that this would lower crime rates, not a ingle politician on either side of the debate has had the balls to bring this topic up. They think anything that is a complex causality is beyond the comprehension of the voters, and they're probably right.
P.S. When exactly are these "more civilized times" you're referring to?
As to the original topic, respect for the police and the laws. Just the other day the cops started following a car I was in, then pulled us over when we tried to pull into our driveway. They claimed it was because our muffler sounded "a bit loud" but why then would they follow us around, through several turns before pulling us over? It was bullshit. They weren't trying to enforce a law, they were trying to pull people over in the hopes they could bust us for something. Previous to their following us, they were speeding, and changed lanes three times without using an indicator. When the police don't respect the laws or obey them, it erodes one's respect for both the police and the laws. When absurdly stupid laws are still on the books and occasionally enforced at the whim of those with power, it erodes one's respect for the laws.
I know an old, retired officer who is proud of the fact that he never broke any laws the entire time he was a cop. I know a dozen people who are cops today and every one brags about abusing their authority in a "funny" way and the fact that they can get away with breaking the laws whenever they want. My brother used to be a cop. One day he was puled over for speeding in his private car and when the cop saw who it was, he just chatted wit him and let him go, with no mention of the speeding. I'd say their is a trend towards lack of respect for police and laws in the US, and it is very justified by our current laws, enforcement practices, and police hiring practices. 90% of
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Mod parent down (Score:3, Insightful)
As to the gun, the vast majority do not respect it. They fear it. That is two very different concepts. It is also part of the reason why more and more criminals are getting bigger guns.
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Re:Wow those are really intimidating (Score:5, Insightful)
By giving somebody a nightstick and a gun, you are presupposing there are circumstances in which he'll use them, rather than ordinary persuasion. If the moral imperative is to do your job with the least force possible, then intimidation fits right between reasoned persuasion and beating or shooting people. Saying cops should never intimidate members of the public is one of those things that sounds right, but you have to examine the alternatives in any particular situation.
If the imperative is to protect the public safety with the least force, then using intimidation where a lesser alternative is available is like drawing and firing a gun when there isn't a life at stake, only to a lesser degree. It is true that the public should not live in continual fear of the police, but occasional fear is not so terrible, provided that the police remain servants of the public. It's one thing to feel fear when you are speeding and see a cop parked on the side of the highway; it's something that either you can live with, or which you should change by voting in politicians who will raise the speed limit. It's another thing to be afraid that every time you talk to a police officer you might be "disappeared". Just because the situations feel somewhat alike doesn't mean they are alike.
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However, other people (including people in my own family) view cops as just looking for a reason to write them up, and see the equipment as a method of intimidation. Most cops that I talk to are happy to help and joined the force
Re:Wow those are really intimidating (Score:4, Funny)
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Come on Editors (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Come on Editors (Score:5, Insightful)
What, you mean like slashdot?
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Well, as a human I'm not especially pointed, in fact I'm rather rounded in places, and last I checked it was indeed me that ran my mouth. I'd hardly delegate the task to anyone else, all those nerve endings and all, it could get messy.
Does this assist?
Come on Bypassers. (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah! Stop linking to slashdot. Oh wait!
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Environmental cost (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Environmental cost (Score:5, Informative)
It's generally not considered a huge deal since the ratio of motorcycles to cars on the road is rather low, but if a fleet of bikes can be replaced, it might make a difference.
Re:Environmental cost (Score:5, Informative)
Check the "ENGINE" tab here. for example:
http://www.ducati.com/od/ducatinorthamerica/en/bikes/model.jhtml?model=2390 [ducati.com]
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how about comparing it with a car of similar performance?
never mind that is uses less road space than a car (1/2?), and it needs to be on the road for less time because it doesn't get stuck in traffic (as much).
Of course, some motorcycles can get mpgs that are around or even exceed 300mpg - though, AFAICT, not production and IMO not particularly interesting to buy - perhaps it wouldn't look out of place in California. Someone here claims 400mpg : http://www.suzukicycles.org/high_milage_ [suzukicycles.org]
Re:Environmental cost (Score:5, Interesting)
Err no , why would I be?
"how about comparing it with a car of similar performance?"
An average bike does 0-60 in about 5 seconds. My camaro could do that and still hit 30mpg on a good day and it weighed 1600kg. How can a 160kg bike of the same performance only get less than twice the mpg? Sorry , something doesn't add up.
A vehicle such as a bike that is that light with a cross sectional area that small should have far far better mpg than perhaps 50% more than a car weighing 10 times more and 4 or 5 times the frontal area (and hence air resistance). The fact that bikes don't says a lot about their inefficient (and torque-free) engines.
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=Smidge=
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You say that an average bike is as good performance as your camaro (not a particularly valid comparison, but it seems to be in the bike's favour, so never mind), and yet the bike gets much better efficiency (typically in excess of 40mpg, compared to your quoted 30mpg). I don't think the relationship is supposed to be arimetic but geometric, so that's somewhere near what I would expect.
Are you trying to suggest that removing two wheels from your camaro wo
What? (Score:2)
No. An average bike does 0-60 in about 2.5 seconds. A Harley takes 5, but Harleys are shite bikes, not average ones.
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I have driven a Hyabusa, and I can tell you that without knkowing the bike, or really trying, 0-70-0 is achievable in 6.0 seconds.
Wether or not fuel efficiency is a major issue here, there is the mobility factor, that cars just can't beat even with big fat fuel guzzling harleys.
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The 1/4 mile is the current measurement for acceleration. Even a rather large Harley will do the 1/4 in 13 - 14 seconds. Most sport-tourers do it in 12 seconds, and your average sportbike will be anywhere from low 10s to 11s.
So
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"you're joking, right?"
Err no , why would I be?
"how about comparing it with a car of similar performance?"
An average bike does 0-60 in about 5 seconds. My camaro could do that and still hit 30mpg on a good day and it weighed 1600kg. How can a 160kg bike of the same performance only get less than twice the mpg? Sorry , something doesn't add up.
A vehicle such as a bike that is that light with a cross sectional area that small should have far far better mpg than perhaps 50% more than a car weighing 10 times more and 4 or 5 times the frontal area (and hence air resistance). The fact that bikes don't says a lot about their inefficient (and torque-free) engines.
Have you been on a modern motorcycle? In any case, I disagree with your assessment -- it sounds like you're ignoring real math here. Where do you get your average 0-60 figures? I'd estimate that most 500-1000cc bikes get to 60 in closer to 3.5-4 seconds. My 25-year-old 500cc Honda cruiser can scoot to 60 in less than 5 seconds. Even modern power cruisers (yes, more than 1000 cc) tend to get up to the sixty-mark in under 5 seconds (according to this article [popularmechanics.com], HD V Rod hits 60 in 4.26 seconds, Honda VT
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They still have rubbish mpg. How can a vehicle that weighs only slighly more than a large man manage only about 40mpg?? Its farcical. If it did the same mpg per kilo as a car motorbikes should be hitting 300mpg easy.
Piaggio scooters get between 50-80mpg according to the website.
While I'm sure the Harlies the NYPD uses are not the most efficient bikes, I'm sure they are more efficient than the Dodge Chargers (12-15mpg) or Ford Crown Victorias (15-18mpg IIRC).
How can a vehicle that weighs only slighly more than a large man manage only about 40mpg??
Easily [totalmotorcycle.com] when the engine size is that of an average econobox. I can't imagine the need for a 1.8l bike, but still in contrast to their fleet autos, the full sized bikes are an improvement.
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The Yo Smart [induselectrans.com] model sells for about $800, and does ~75km/40mi per charge.
While its performance is fairly anemic, it is cheap, small, and convenient enough for short distances. Imagine the benefit to the environment (and money saved!) if more people started using these electric bikes/scooters instead of their big-ass cars and SUVs for short errands.
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Yo has another model called Yo Speed [induselectrans.com] that has much more sensible specifications. This one is a lot sturdier and heavier, has a top speed of 45kmh/30mph (again artificially throttled) with a payload capacity of 130kg, which is quite decent!
An interesting hack would be to disable the artificia
BMW has had catalytic converters for over 10 years (Score:2)
The issue in NY is that you cannot use bikes year round.
If you want them to be really environmentally considerate let them bring horses back to the whole city!
My only beef with being friendly to the environment, if these vehicles truly are from manufacturing to disposal, is that they make it seem all so nice. The key is that city officials are the ones raking in the glory for their actions while its the tax payers who should get credit. It is very easy to be magnanimous on so
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Pull over.... pretty please! (Score:2)
This is NOT exactly the vehicle that one would really consider for any sort of high speed chase. Or hell, think of them on an interstate.
But still I'm sure they have their practical uses.
Re:Pull over.... pretty please! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Pull over.... pretty please! (Score:4, Informative)
Maybe they should use pedal bikes. Quite a few UK police forces tried equipping their police officers with bicycles which seemed quite effective. No-one could get away from them on foot but it didn't stop them from going through pedestrian areas. And they were certainly more approachable than police officers in cars or on motorbikes.
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What happens if they arrest someone? "Okay buddy! In the basket!"?
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You can always tell when there is real trouble by the number of cars. 1 police vehicle is normally a citation; 2+ vehicles is generally an arrest of one sort or another.
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I think they do. Also horses.
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If I were a motorcycle cop, I would not want to be involved in any high-speed chases. You want to be safe within a cage for that type of work.
On the other hand, it seems silly to replace motorcycles (already quite fuel-efficient due to their light weight) while leaving gas-guzzling cars and SUVs in the fleet. Why not replace all patrol cars with hybrids? They can run on battery around town, and switch over t
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Somebody I work with recently bought a Prius. He says it uses less fuel than his motorbike.
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Someone above was dogging the performance of Harleys, and compared to sport bikes I'd say it's justified, but there are very few cars where I live that have anything even close in terms of acceleration, and not just from a stop - my bike will go from 60 to 80 mph in a startlingly short amount of time. My friend
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On the other hand, it seems silly to replace motorcycles (already quite fuel-efficient due to their light weight) while leaving gas-guzzling cars and SUVs in the fleet. Why not replace all patrol cars with hybrids? They can run on battery around town, and switch over to ICE for the high-speed chases (obviously you'd want something beefier than a Prius).
According to Piaggio [piaggiousa.com] their scooters get 50 to 80mpg rather than a Prius which according to toyota.com gets 46mpg. I can't say which Piaggio scooters the NYPD are using, for all I know they could be using the 2cycle version.
I also read they are using 2006 Dodge Chargers which get 13/18mpg and mostly ye old Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor common among law enforcement and not much better on fuel.
Why not replace all patrol cars with hybrids?
So in terms of raw fuel use, you are likely correct that addressing the gas guzzlers would likely result i
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Other than being a scooter, I could only think of a big taser...
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Honest question (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Honest question (Score:5, Insightful)
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Honest question-Fun with two wheels. (Score:5, Funny)
Freeze to death in the middle of winter. Fly gracefully over the hood of a car in an accident. Be able to fart without one's partner commenting on it. Pop wheelies.
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Electric Scooters are great (Score:2)
Stupid (Score:3, Insightful)
Public safety should never be something that gets compromised by poorly thought-out "green" initiatives.
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Getting around in New York is slow and takes a lot of corners so the specs on the bike seem to be on target to the top speed they would get on a regular motorcycle in that huge city. I think their testing will prove that the bikes will be just fine for the job.
Re:Stupid is as stupid does (Score:2, Interesting)
There are police on foot, police on segways, police on bicycles, police on horseback, police on motor-cycles, police in patrol cars, police in interceptor cars, police in trucks, and, yes, police on scooters.
What I think is stupid, is being assumptive of the role involved and the needs without doing so much as actually even reading the article first.
Personlly, in my experience with law-enforcement, the
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C'mon - this is Slashdot. Folks don't need to read the articles! Regardless of the topic, they know more than anyone about any subject.
Headline is wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Headline is wrong (Score:5, Funny)
NYPD To Replace Motor Fleet With Electric Scooters?
They just missed the question mark
" Less than Green?" Say WHAT!? (Score:5, Insightful)
So, let's replace the most fuel efficient motor vehicle the NYPD has in the fleet because it's "less than green" and let's keep those cars, trucks, vans, helicopters, and who-knows-what else. You know, for the children.
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You have a plan for an electric helicopter we should know about?
A patent on a very inexpensive yet high capacity battery that will out-range and out-perform gasoline in cars, trucks, and vans?
So, you would prefer they do nothing to help, since they can't do EVERYTHING just yet? Always attack
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If you don't attack the highest hanging fruit first then it's behind you when you bend down to get the low hanging fruit.
May I suggest ? (Score:3, Funny)
Curious what the intended use is? (Score:4, Insightful)
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They use them for patrolling parks, traffic direction duties, bugging people at street marches, and so on.
Why not replace cars with conveyor belts? (Score:5, Funny)
These used to be a staple of futuristic SF stories - wonder why it never caught on - the technology is definitely there(in airports)
On a side note if people are using conveyor belts the cops dont need motorcycles to catch perps - just get on the hyperfast conveyor belt lane reserved for emergencies.
Law & Order (Score:2)
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NYPD has used scooters for years (Score:2)
The NYPD has used scooters for years; they're great in congested areas. They probably like this thing because it's quiet.
The NYPD doesn't do many car chases. NYC is too crowded. They prefer to get a few units into position ahead of the vehicle being pursued.
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Re:Normal vs. Headless vs. GREEN_BY_ELECTRIC (Score:5, Insightful)
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I bet you can't back that up with any facts. A modern coal burning power plant is probably 50% efficient or better and cleans its exhaust. A gas engine in a vehicle is about 20% efficient (ignoring the transportation costs of getting the fuel to the vehicle) and does very little cleaning of the exhaust.
The only reason coal is considered such an ecological thre
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Here's something to chew on, and this is just in the context of powering hydrogen cells, which is arguably more efficient than plugging a car straight into an AC outlet.
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Such a claim is only arguable by someone woefully ignorant of the facts (and the laws of thermodynamics).
The fuel cycle in that case (electricity -> electrolysis -> hydrogen -> fuel cell -> electricity) is only about 25% efficient. Did you really think that the fuel cycle would have efficiency greater than 100%, and how else wou
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Many of the "Greenies" have been switching their stance on nuclear power over the past decade because they are realizing that the threat from nuclear power is nothing compared to the reality of global warming.
Look around. Their are many plans for nuclear power plants on the books now and the protests are NOTHING compared with what they were in the 70's and 80's. Oh sure, there are some who wont come around, but thats always the case.
Nuclear power is going to gr
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Re:Normal vs. Headless vs. GREEN_BY_ELECTRIC (Score:4, Interesting)
You've exposed the most fraudulent part of the greenies' movement. Recharging batteries requires electricity, which in the US, is derived primarily from burning coal, which is worse ecologically than burning gasoline.
Burning coal to power EVs is a pretty stupid solution, and I don't think anyone is actually advocating that, but it is absolutely an improvement over burning gasoline. Your assertion is well documented as totally false, yet it's constantly repeated. You really should do your own research on this, but here's a whitepaper from Tesla Motors [teslamotors.com] for starters. It's a pretty fair analysis of the relative efficiencies of various propulsion systems. It does cheat a little by assuming natural gas generation for electricity, but it's obvious from the numbers that--even from coal--EVs are a significant win in terms of reducing pollution and CO2 emissions.
You can substitute just about any EV for Tesla's Roadster -- they're all exceptionally efficient, at under 300 AC watthours per mile. Yes, I'm an electric vehicle engineer.
As long as the Greenies keep pushing fake green agendas on us like electric cars but at the SAME TIME keep protesting nuclear power, this will never be a good solution.
Nuclear power is a fantastic option. Between nuclear, wind, and hydro, more than half of California's energy is pollution- and CO2-free. Electricity is the ultimate flex fuel -- you can generate it from coal, nuclear, or solar panels on your roof.
You spewed some further misinformation further down -- I'll reply to that later on.
The police model needs a built-in donut holder... (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abner_Louima [wikipedia.org]