New Zealand Rejects Office For Macs
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue May 29, 2007 07:02 AM
from the my-word,-how-can-our-students-excel? dept.
from the my-word,-how-can-our-students-excel? dept.
An anonymous reader writes "The New Zealand Ministry of Education has declined to renew a licensing deal for MS Office on 25,000 Macintosh computers in the country's schools. The Education Minister has suggested that schools use the free alternative NeoOffice. The article quotes a school principal who pointed out that the NeoOffice website warns users to expect problems and bugs: 'That's not the sort of software we should be expecting kids in New Zealand to be using.'" Schools are free to buy their own copies of Office. A blog on the New Zealand Herald site argues that the Ministry should have paid Microsoft this time, but not renewed the deal and instead developed a transition plan to open source.
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Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case I think the fast transition will cause grumbles, but then again, if they waited the MSN (Microsoft Sales Ninjas) would be inbound, and before they knew it everyone would be parrotting the microsoft literature and the switch would be forgotten.
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Informative)
I've personally seen the IRQL error several times on machines that run Linux flawlessly (and more often!) If it's something that rears its head only when there's bad hardware, then Linux must be a magical operating system that can turn bad hardware into good.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:4, Interesting)
You know, hardware that utterly fails under one operating system can work flawlessly under another. They have different drivers. In almost all cases, windows drivers are binary blobs that are developed by the device manufacturer or someone they have retained under contract to do so for them. Most Linux drivers are reverse engineered or developed from specs and are open source drivers which come with the kernel.
In practice, either one might be more reliable; if the Linux driver isn't very good, which is often the case (it can be hard to write a good, stable driver without specs) then it might not work under Linux properly, but be fine under Windows. If the Windows driver is a pile of crap, it might work better under Linux.
For example, my last desktop system was an Athlon XP 2500+ with a Radeon 9600XT. The system would bluescreen on boot if I had the catalyst control center installed. But once I booted up in safe mode and removed CCC, the driver worked "fine" (it still sucked - we're talking about ATI here. but no bluescreens.) Some people just can't write a fucking driver.
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:4, Insightful)
I've seen Linux run flawlessly on machines Windows isn't even borderline stable one.
The fact of the matter is, there's a lot that stability depends upon, and even slightly different circumstances can lead to vastly different results.
In my personal experience, outside of really cheap computers, I've not had any stability issues with Windows. The exception being a computer with a SiL 2114 SATA controler, and using an IDE hard drive fixed that problem (Linux wouldn't even boot on that machine). I narrowed it down to the controller because all other machines tested work fine with the same SATA drives tested, and that machine runs fine with just IDE drives.
But I'm getting off track here. The point is that there is no "single" answer to achieving high stability, except putting in the effort to determine which (A) works with what (B), and some trial & error.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
-- Dijkst
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Informative)
PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA
IRQ_NOT_LESS_THAN_OR_EQUAL
Those are due to driver bugs. Page fault in non paged area means a bad pointer - you touched a page that was marked as not present, but since the area is unpaged the OS can't do anything to fix it.
IRQL not less than or equal is more interesting. NT has a concept of IRQL. It's an abstraction, and it means which interrupts are enabled. The lowest level in kernel mode is PASSIVE_LEVEL which means the scheduler is enabled. The next highest level is DISPATCH_LEVEL where it is not. Above that are the hardware interrupt levels. Now consider a spinlock, an OS synchronisation primitive. These are to protect shared resources. Drivers call KeAcquireSpinLock() to get them, do some stuff and then KeReleaseSpinLock() to release them. On a SMP system, KeAcquireSpinLock needs to raise IRQL and then acquire the lock. On a single processor system it just raises the IRQL.
http://ext2fsd.sourceforge.net/documents/irql.htm [sourceforge.net]
So IRQL in Windows NT is very important thing. If the system is running at a raised IRQL, someone is holding a spinlock, or an interrupt is in progress.
Lots of kernel routines are documented in the DDK as being only callable at a certain maximum IRQL. Typically, IRQL_NOT_LESS_THAN_OR_EQUAL is caused by touching paged data at a raised IRQL which can't work as the pager risks a deadlock when it tries to acquire spinlocks to page it in, or less likely by calling a function which is documented as not being callable at that IRQL.
If you look at the stackframe, you can see which driver is to blame and either disable or update it. If the system has always been unstable, check the RAM.
Interestingly enough, Microsoft are experimenting with static code analysis and automated test cases to catch driver errors like this
http://www.inf.uni-konstanz.de/soft/teaching/ws05
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:4, Funny)
What distro are you running again?
(Yes, mods, I realize he was being sarcastic, so am I.)
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Insightful)
also the same FAQ says:
I've not used NeoOffice, but to me, this sounds like the software is in the stage Firefox was in just before hitting 1.0 -- stable enough for everyday use; maybe there are a few bugs, but they get fixed quickly so downloading the latest release is usually a good idea before filing a bug report.
Or new zealand, could... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, I'm surprised at the Orwellian speak coming from both the likes of Microsoft and the anti-Microsoft crowd.
We don't have Microsoft just "fixing bugs", oh no. We have Microsoft "HIDING bugs and creating the ILLUSION of problem free computer usage".
How on Earth do you create the *illusion* of problem free computer usage? You let Word crash and popup a box "Calm down user, this was just a part of your problem free computer usage"?
Office works fine enough, the sad part in all of this, is they don't have good enough competitors, because they have stagnated for years and years.
Then Office 2007 which offered lots of innovation in the interface, features, wizard etc. But why? Is it because Open Source was picking up and MS Office were terrible at "hiding bugs"? No, it's because people just got stuck with Office 97: Microsoft's competing with their own software.
It's sad.
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.neooffice.org/neojava/es/index.php [neooffice.org]
Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? (Score:5, Informative)
- OpenOffice in X11, which is ugly, and doesn't integrate with the rest of the system.
- OpenOffice for Mac, which is unstable and is only available in source form.
- NeoOffice, which is fairly stable, doesn't need X11, and works now.
Unfortunately, the work done by the NeoOffice team is licensed under the GPL, and so can't be pushed back upstream to the OpenOffice, which is LGPL. NeoOffice is a fork, and will remain so unless they decide to change their license, and so will need to pull changes down from upstream periodically. The OpenOffice native port stays in sync with changes in the main tree automatically.MS Office has plenty of bugs too... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Saying that though, there's no reason stude
How much? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:How much? (Score:5, Interesting)
So, we know they're saving more than $2.7m and less than $100m, but we're not told exactly how much.
By the way, macs aren't extensively used outside of primary (roughly, elementary schools) and intermediate (school years 7-8) in New Zealand. Every high school I can think of (many) have one or two macs at most, and classes full of PCs. So, to my mind, Le Sueur is wrong, and NeoOffice _is_ the sort of software we can expect kids to use. It's unreasonable to claim five to twelve year olds have a need for (supposedly) superior, high-class spreadsheets, databases and business presentations.
Death Knell (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Death Knell (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Death Knell (Score:5, Insightful)
That's funny, when I was at school I was taught on ClarisWorks on Apples and Win3.1 at school, and used MS Word 5 on DOS at home. Now I used MS Office 2k/2003 on XP at work and OpenOffice.org on XP/Ubuntu at home. I thought learning how to use a computer meant just that - learning how to use a computer, not learning how to use Microsoft software.
It'll do the job. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It'll do the job. (Score:5, Funny)
They exaggerate (Score:3, Interesting)
OK so the NeoOffice developers have issues with their social skills, does this have much to do with the feature set and bugs of NeoOffice as compared with Open Office, Microsoft Office, or iWork?
Personally I think all three are way overkill for students writing papers. Hell, I don't think I've ever used more than 10 or 20% of MS Office's features and I use it work nearly every day and have for over 10 years. Is there an Open Source project like Apple's 'Pages'? This, I think, would be closer to useful and a lot more fun.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't remember it exactly but it was blunt, over the top, and probably unnecessary.
Emacs!? When I comment that OOO.org, MS Office, and NeoOffice are so feature ric
Maybe NZ government are just playing it smart! (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft are terrified of the thought of educational and public authorities ditching MS products as they know that successful operation of non-MS products in these sort of institutions will lead others - and ultimately corporations (their biggest market) - to consider alternatives.
Several U.K. local councils and schools pay virtually nothing for MS products to prevent them trialling Linux.
NeoOffice is a good alternative for education (Score:3, Insightful)
It starts up almost immediately on a 2.0GHz Core 2 Duo iMac.
Previous versions take ages to start up.
They've also improved the GUI appearance no end from the primitive OpenOffice look and feel which is stuck in the mid 90s.
This is a perfect solution for education as it will handle all educational needs without a problem, and save the education authority and schools a lot of money. This is a sound business decision for education.
What about Apple's own software? (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean, this IS education we're talking about here. Their needs should be fairly basic - if not I would be suspicious of their teaching methods. If it were up to me I would build plans on AppleWorks but also introduce students to NeoOffice. Using both would force them to develop flexibility and the ability to learn new software. It is something they will need to do for the rest of their lives.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
But your blanket statements a
Teach Concepts, Not Apps (Score:4, Insightful)
Wait until the teachers start complaining. (Score:5, Interesting)
I proposed Open Office as a viable replacement for most of our machines. Administration would continue to use MS Office alongside of Open Office. The school's administration tried Open Office, and after a short learning curve, they liked the software. The only real complaint was that the menus were different from MS Office. Administration assumed that teaching "professionals" would learn the new software and continue on with their jobs.
It took an entire year, but the whole school was eventually migrated to Open Office, and it worked for most people. A few, very loud teachers, hated it.
Those very loud teachers made lots of noise - so much so that administration finally coughed up $11,000 for MS Office 2007.
After another lengthy deployment process, we had Office 2007 in place. Now the very loud teachers are complaining the new software is different from the old stuff.
You can't win with Teachers.
-ted
Re:Wait until the teachers start complaining. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you mean "you can't win with people". In any sufficiently large population, there's going to be a few people who are dramatically more predisposed to griping and/or are dramatically less adaptive to change than the average person. So if it's any consolation, you'd have had to deal with the same idiots no matter what industry you worked in ;-)
Re:Wait until the teachers start complaining. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you mean "you can't win with people".
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I use NeoOffice to work around MS Office bugs (Score:4, Interesting)
dave
Surely it doesn't mean delete MS Office (Score:4, Insightful)
The sad thing is: The motive is all wrong! (Score:4, Insightful)
In reality, it seems like the Education Minister is just being plain old-fashioned cheap.
If they were serious about using NeoOffice/OpenOffice, but have concerns about the stability of the software, they should consider contributing to the project. There are tons of ways an Education minister can make that happen. He could encourage the IT related universities in his country to make projects that contribute to the products. He could donate cash to the NeoOffice and/or OpenOffice teams - say a mere 5% of the money they would otherwise have spent on commercial licenses? Or he could have contracted a local software company to improve (contribute) to the software for a specified amount.
Open and free software is good. But choosing it simply because the initial price tag is low (read: nil) is a bad motivation - especially for an Education Minister. And it doesen't really help the product or the community either.
An Open Source product is only as strong as its ACTIVE contributors.
Re:The sad thing is: The motive is all wrong! (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's a hint as to why this won't happen: it's not the Minister of Education's job to spend my (yep, I'm a kiwi) tax money on helping "the product or the community". But do you know what is his job? To ensure that children in my country get the best education they can. And that means that when he has the choice of donating money to a software development group or spending it on one of the underfunded schools throughout the country, he must spend it on the kids.
You hear the "somebody, think of the children" argument a lot these days. But this is one case where it applies well. It is Maharey's job to think of the children. And they are best served by using the money elsewhere.
donate to help make improvements (Score:3, Interesting)
Why not donate a significant amount to the Neo Office project each year to encourage development and/or place a bounty on features that they'd like to see included or fixed.
If every district/county/state/country did something like that we'd have the best of breed open source software in the world available for everyone to use for free.
Even though some software is free as is beer, the reason for this is so that it can truely be free as in freedom. Free as in beer doesn't stop you contributing back whatever you can to benefit everyone.
I'm no tree-hugging GPL/GNU beardy freak, but I do appriecate the efforts these guys have made for the Mac Platform and have been thinking about donating myself - even though I only downloaded and used it once to open a single document.
my prob with NeoOffice (Score:3, Interesting)
When I copy/paste into Neooffice, I get just the plain text--no links are preserved. I looked through the options to try to figure it out, to no avail. Haven't opened up NeoOffice since then. If anyone knows a way to fix that problem, please tell me. You can even throw in some gratuitous "lame noob" insults if it makes you feel better.
On a side note, I really wish someone smarter than me (is that a big enough labor pool for you?) would write a print-to-pdf type program that keeps the hyperlinks intact. I don't know what mojo OpenOffice uses to preserve the hyperlinks from text copied to the clipboard, but there is no doubt a way to make a one-trick application that prints a section of html to pdf while keeping the hyperlinks intact. Yes, I'd pay for it. Any ideas?
Re:Silly principal.... (Score:4, Insightful)
MS *doesn't* lie at all (Score:3, Informative)
You did read the EULA didn't you? No? Really?