Being Honest In Exit Interviews Is Pointless 550
Esther Schindler writes "Say that you're leaving a job, either on your own volition or because they decided it was time for you to 'pursue other opportunities.' Before you leave, the HR department wants to chat with you about the employment experience, in an exit interview. 'Oh goodie,' you think. 'Now I can really tell them what I really feel.'
Don't do it. If your employer couldn't find the time to ask you what was good or bad about working at the company while you were still working there, writes Lisa Vaas, why bother with honesty and potentially burned bridges now? (If they did ask, give them constructive feedback before you leave this job; they deserve it). Discuss."
Easier headline... (Score:5, Insightful)
Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Interesting)
Say nothing but good things -
Tell the boss how good they are even tho they are the worst type of asshole in the universe
Thanks the co-workers for their generous help and guidance even tho they are clumsy back-stabbers
Give great praises the company even tho they are giving you the pink slip
That will make them happy, and happy people (often) do not find time to do more harm to you, leaving you plenty of peaceful time to look for new jobs
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell the boss how good they are even tho they are the worst type of asshole in the universe
Ummm, no. Thousands times NO! In this instances say nothing. NOTHING!
Positive feedback only feeds the trolls.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Interesting)
Not always possible or practical. If you're in an exit interview and you're asked for your opinion on how your boss treated you while you worked there (regardless of whether it's your own boss asking the questions or not), you can't just say nothing... uncomfortable silence is uncomfortable. You could try saying "I'd rather not answer that", but giving that kind of response tells plenty anyway. So, might as well be nice and lie through your teeth just so that you can part on reasonable terms. You never know if you'll run across your former boss in the future.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Interesting)
Who cares unless he will be your boss in that future time.
In which case, you already know how it's going to end so don't get stuck with him as a boss again.
Just skip the exit interview and get on with your life.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Insightful)
Who cares unless he will be your boss in that future time.
You care, because one thing you do not want to find out is that the person you are applying for a new job with knows someone who knows your old boss. For the same reason you don't bad mouth your old boss in a job interview - no potential future boss wants a whiner on their staff.
My GF has a particularly bad boss, who, as it happens, is very well known in both the community and in their field. Guess how likely it is that they're going to get a call when my GF is looking for work.
But yes, you hit the nail on the head with
Just skip the exit interview and get on with your life.
unless you have a very specific reason to help them improve, don't. E.g. if your job was never intended to be permanent and you're moving on to somewhere else then sure, you can gently provide generic feedback, but generally you're going to get yourself in trouble opening your mouth.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Interesting)
I've had it both ways. Sealed letters in academia can be ruthlessly honest "Do not take this person as a graduate student", but business references, ya they have to worry about defamation, where they seem like a bunch of MBA illiterate waffle.
Even then, there are ways to say bad things without saying bad things. /. lets people post anonymously because people value their privacy (cough they're cowards and have something to hide cough) sort of thing. If you put someones name down as a reference you need to be absolutely sure they're not going to say something you don't like, because sometimes they can and will.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Insightful)
I've had it both ways. Sealed letters in academia can be ruthlessly honest "Do not take this person as a graduate student", but business references, ya they have to worry about defamation, where they seem like a bunch of MBA illiterate waffle.
Even then, there are ways to say bad things without saying bad things. /. lets people post anonymously because people value their privacy (cough they're cowards and have something to hide cough) sort of thing. If you put someones name down as a reference you need to be absolutely sure they're not going to say something you don't like, because sometimes they can and will.
Sealed letters in academia are notoriously easy to freeze, open, read, heat and re-seal. If you're at a level of academia where they do sealed letters (grad and above), you should be smart enough to know this...
The best way for an employer to legally "not-recommend" you in a reference check is to leave a long, uncomfortable silence when the person asks about you.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Informative)
Most of the time today there is a standing HR policy that says they will only confirm dates of employment. The only thing I have heard differently is that my prior employer would say whether the person was "re-hireable" or not, if asked.
As far as exit interviews go, if you do want to say something negative, it's good- as with any other time in the business world - to never say anything negative about an individual. You can usually get your point across without it.
Re: (Score:3)
The best way for an employer to legally "not-recommend" you in a reference check is to leave a long, uncomfortable silence when the person asks about you.
The "legal" answer is to use only facts. Nothing that would be opinion at all. Say things like "I would never rehire them." That's not actionable. Unless you would rehire them.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:4, Insightful)
Yep, it probably depends on the company. Big companies tend to have very strict policies about this, because they have a LOT to lose in a defamation lawsuit. Plus, big companies tend to be smarter about many things IME, in a ruthless kind of way. How does it help the company to tell the truth about some employee who quit (or was terminated)? What exactly do they have to gain from it? Nothing at all, but they have everything to lose: defamation lawsuit, going postal and coming to the old employer with an assault rifle, tear gas, and a gas mask, etc. It's much safer for them to just let the bad (in their opinion) employee go on about his life without any interference from them, and maybe they'll even get lucky and one of their competitors will hire him.
In smaller companies, it's easy to see how some egocentric person would want to make an ex-employee's life miserable, and as smaller companies haven't created policies about every single thing to cover their asses from lawsuits, they get away with it.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Informative)
Even then, there are ways to say bad things without saying bad things
There is a particular "code" used in references or certificates of employment you get when leaving your job here in central Europe - basically employers are not allowed to hinder you from finding a new job in any way, so they cannot say anything bad; instead they rely on very subtle differences and certain phrases to the point where you can read about this "code" in books and hear about it in trainings. An example would be saying you "always tried to do a good job", which sounds alright, right? But the code here is that is does not say "you always did an absolutely outstanding excellent job" so what they were actually saying is "you were frakking horrible", you never really did anything (hence "tried to.."). In another examples, there are certain key phrases, so if they are saying that you "always associated with your fellow employees" or something like that, then that can mean you are a mean drunk and/or sexually harassed colleagues. And there are techniques to leave things out, like not mentioning you were always polite to your superiors and customers but you were to your colleagues, then that could mean there were issues there.
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_reference_letter#Language
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeitszeugnis#Zeugniscode
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember one exit interview when I was made redundant. I still remember my ex-boss saying "You know, it's OK to be unhappy about this, you really don't have to smile so much. It makes it feel like I'm doing you a favour by making you redundant"
Which, in truth, he was.... And he already knew what I had to say about the company that wasn't so nice...
So I convinced him that although the timing was less-than perfect, I would be fine and though he would do well. I have him advice on who could do what I did and completed a handover with him of my clients.
Four years later, I forgot to erase them as a referee on my resume and applied for a job, which I got offered the same day. The reason? They called my former boss and said he gave such a solid reference that they had no doubt I was the best candidate they would find.
Being honest in an exit interview has a point. Just remember to leave bitterness and vicious attitudes at the door and treat it with the professionalism it deserves, because it really is a step towards a career somewhere else.
Good candidates have good resumes.
Great candidates have good references from prior employers.
Exceptional candidates have good references from the person who gave them the exit interview, because the employing company knows they will maintain their professionalism no matter how bad things get.
GrpA
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:4, Insightful)
"The owner and CEO hired from two distinct job descriptions, and follows neither in evaluating my performance" (i.e. he yells at me and threatens to fire me for performing the duties in my job description according to my written KPIs because he changes his mind on a weekly basis how he wants the company run, and I'm supposed to read his mind and do what he is thinking, even when it directly contradicts my written goals and duties).
Complaining "he makes me work too much" or "work is hard" is what most complaints are about. Mine were about lying bosses who run the companies out of business or don't know what they want well enough to tell me what they want, but want me to do what they are thinking without the resources or authority to do so.
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I'm not commenting on the validity of your observations about your ex boss turned CEO or their qualifications, but I would offer that that if you are reporting up at the "C" level, the first thing that your job description is that you don't have a job description, you have a mission: to make the company successful. That usually just means do whatever you can within your level of authority to get the mission accomplished and be judged later on the result, not the effort
The one with the bad CEO was because he wouldn't stand up to the board. He wasn't sure of himself, and spent so much time trying to keep his job (he knew he wasn't right for CEO) that he sank the company. And yes, I did warn the directors behind his back, they didn't care to hear what "some employee" had to say.
The one where the job description was fucked I was hired by the owner and reported to the owner, then the owner restructured to semi-retire and the CEO stepped in. And I'd do what the owner would
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Interesting)
Who cares unless he will be your boss in that future time.
I've seen someone rage quit, declare his boss a moron, before starting work at a rival company. Six months later the two companies merged, and he got his old boss back. Funnily enough, he was made redundant during the restructing process.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Interesting)
My dad worked for Douglas Aircraft, and was laid off. Got a job at McDonnell Aircraft. Two years or so later they merged and my dad became his former boss's boss. How's that for a flip.
Always treat people with respect, you really don't know what will happen in the future.
My Sensi was telling us a story the other day how some years ago he didn't see another car and cut someone off.
When they pulled up to a light, right as the other person was getting ready to tell him off, my sensi apologized about how he was sooo sorry and was glad he didn't cause an accident, then opened a 12 pack of Coke he just bought and tossed the guy one.
Two weeks later the guy shows up in class to pick up his kid, and recognizes Sensi as "that guy who gave me a Coke" not "That jackass that cut me off".
-nB
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Interesting)
you can't just say nothing... uncomfortable silence is uncomfortable.
that's your problem. work on avoiding having to give your power away.
that's what is going on. they want to probe for weakness or reasons to 'mark you down badly'.
nothing good comes from this. trust me. been working quite a long time in tech, in many of the top-named large and small companies. not once was an exit interview beneficial to ME. and I know for a fact that it has hurt me (a friend at a past job somehow got sight of my exit interview text and said that I was forever blackballed from returning to that place again).
believe it.
just say nothing or excuse yourself.
its like getting questioned by a cop. nothing good can come from that. just say as little as you can and get the hell out of there as fast as you can.
this is a no-win situation and they try to sell it as a way to 'fix' things that need fixing. there is zero truth to that, I assure you.
please, for your own sake, bypass the exit interview. please. you will thank me years from now for this advice. I learned the hard way. you should not have to.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Insightful)
I couldn't give a single fuck if they are happy with me or not. That cop is not your friend, no matter which side of the law you are on.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, but you are extremely wrong. The cops must always be treated as your enemy. You never know what their motives are and they can put you in jail.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, but he's right about the cops. The cops in this country are pretty bad; their whole job is to help prosecute as many people as possible, in conjunction with the DA whose mission it is to do so, because it makes him look "tough on crime". This is all part of the prison-industrial complex. Remember, we lead the world in incarceration per capita, and the cops are a big reason behind it. This isn't like some nice, peaceful country in western Europe where the cops are only there to keep the peace.
Don't forget, we used to call cops "peace officers", and they wore blue. Not any more. They wear black now, and we call them "law enforcement officers" now; pretty soon, we'll probably just call them "enforcers". The cops are far more militarized than they used to be as well.
The cops cannot be trusted.
That said, the poster above is correct; if they're looking for information on someone else who has nothing to do with you (except that you happened to be a witness), it's probably safe to tell them everything you saw. The only people you have to fear in that case are the possible criminal and his associates, not the cops. But if they're questioning you about something you may have done, call your lawyer. They're probably looking for a way to put you in jail.
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If the cop is investigating a crime, you have nothing whatever to gain by speaking with him.
If it is some other situation, it's probably a good idea to be friendly and cordial, as with anyone else.
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That cop is not your friend, no matter which side of the law you are on.
This (you!) is what's wrong with our country. The police are doing their job to enforce the law. You don't like laws being enforced? Then maybe you should move to africa. I hear they've got no police, and it's going great over there.
When you say "our country", I certainly hope that you don't mean the USA. What's wrong with the USA is that we have far too many cop groupies and Stockholm-syndrome types. The police are not there to enforce the law. The police are there to enforce order. The police are there to keep the poor, the politically unimportant and the people who are feared by the politically connected in line.
NTITE
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Informative)
Law abiding citizens that work to help the community have nothing to fear from Uncle Leo.
You, sir, are either dangerously naive or simply an upper-middle class white guy with no perspective. Law abiding citizens of color or lower economic status have plenty to fear from law enforcement.
NTITE
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Informative)
You have entirely failed to convince me. However, this law professor and police detective have me convinced of their argument.
Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1 -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik [youtube.com]
Don't Talk to Cops, Part 2 -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE [youtube.com]
(I realize that forty-eight minutes of video versus your seventy-five words is certainly not balanced but you have the ability to respond if you something more to add. Sorry, some lessons don't fit into a tweet.)
Re: (Score:3)
Actually, cops are my friend. They took care of rather terrible neighbors across the street, they provide escorts for me when I'm on a run with a rather popular motorcycle club that fights the westboro baptist church, and I get thanked and a hand shake quite often.
It's all a matter of who you are and what you do. Law abiding citizens that work to help the community have nothing to fear from Uncle Leo.
A long time ago, Clarence Darrow once reportedly declared that the law being what it is, he could find something to prosecute a ham sandwich on and get a conviction.
Or more recently, in the words of Terry Pratchett's favorite cop, Samuel Vimes, "the question isn't whether or not they're guilty of a crime. They're ALL guilty. The only question is what they're guilty of".
I have a lot of sympathy for policemen. Before our Brave Free Land made it illegal to listen to police radio, most of the people I heard the
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:4, Informative)
Marry into a cop family and the world works VERY differently ;)
There. Right. There. That's the problem. The favoritism you describe is EXACTLY the corruption we're all complaining about, and is a direct violation of the oath your law enforcement friends took.
"On my honor,
I will never betray my badge,
my integrity, my character,
or the public trust.
I will always have
the courage to hold myself
and others accountable for our actions.
I will always uphold the constitution,
my community and the agency I serve."
"Professional courtesy" and the "Blue Wall" ARE the problem, and the routine instances of corruption you wink at, like letting another cop's wife slide on a speeding ticket, eventually lead to letting her slide on a DUI, and then to looking the other way when her husband beats some little girl into a coma. [youtube.com]
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, if they are asking about YOU, then you have a justification to act cautiously. If they're asking if you saw so-and-so drinking the other night, not so much. Unless you want to protect so-and-so from the consequences of their actions.
Oh, sure they could be asking about your friend, or whatever, probing to find out if you were in the vicinity of a rape which involved a rapist vaguely matching your description, where some young thing got slipped a date rape drug. Oops. Cops are legally allowed to lie to you, that does not go both ways.
During an interview you could unknowingly confess to breaking laws you might not have the faintest clue actually existed in the first place; talking allows them to develop probable cause to search, issue warrants, etc. And if they somehow catch you in a lie, no matter how innocent, and they could all of a sudden be talking obstruction of justice charges and trying to put the screws to you.
Talking to cops is how innocent people (you're guilty of something, though, I guarantee it) wind up in trouble. It virtually cannot benefit you, it is an unlevel playing field, and the only thing that makes some cops happy is fucking with people who think like you.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc [youtube.com]
You should never talk to the police, for any reason, other than to identify yourself. If something happens and you are a witness, or worse, involved in a crime, wait for the trial. Never tell the police anything. It NEVER benefits you.
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You should never talk to the police, for any reason, other than to identify yourself.
And to ask if you are free to leave.
If something happens and you are a witness, or worse, involved in a crime, wait for the trial.
Or get in touch with your lawyer, and run it through them. And have them present when talking to the police.
Never tell the police anything. It NEVER benefits you.
That pretty much sums it up, yes.
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That might be true in your back-woods, but up here in civilized country (canada), you're not "protected" when "protecting others". It's called aiding and abetting, if I remember correctly, and several of our laws (not just our criminal code) require that you co-operate when being questioned. Not just cops, either - in some provinces, it includes helping people investigating workplace health/safety or harassment/violence issues.
In the US, they don't require cooperation because the right to speech includes the right to not speak. However, with fewer rights, you are compelled to answer against your will. And you claim that's a good thing.
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BFD. At least in the U.S., there are plenty of states that have no appreciable labor laws that provide for any substantial fines for this kind of action (I'm looking at you in particular, Florida), and more or less force you to pursue your former employer in civil court at your own expense.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Interesting)
On the flipside, Norways laws on that issue are fun. There's very few (and enumerated in law) situations where they can withhold your paycheck. If neither of those applies, you can file for their bankruptcy. That tends to get their attention, to put it mildly.
Bankruptcy-filings are public - they must be afterall, because all creditors of a company has a legitimate need to know. And if there's one kind of headline that companies would like to -avoid- in the newspapers then it's headlines of the "Acme files for bankruptcy, unable to make payroll."
The logic is that since everyone know they -should- pay you your salary, the only reasonable explanation for them not doing that is that they -can't- and if they are unable to meet their financial obligations they are, by definition, bankrupt.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Insightful)
Say nothing but good things -
Tell the boss how good they are even tho they are the worst type of asshole in the universe
Thanks the co-workers for their generous help and guidance even tho they are clumsy back-stabbers
Give great praises the company even tho they are giving you the pink slip
That will make them happy, and happy people (often) do not find time to do more harm to you, leaving you plenty of peaceful time to look for new jobs
As a manager of highly technical staff (and highly technical myself) no.
Granted, I've only been doing this for a few years, but I really do want feedback, and not just when you leave. I can't answer every problem you bring to me, but I can at least hear you out and make suggestions or see what I can do on your behalf. Telling me I'm the greatest person you ever worked for is the worst thing to say if it's not true - it makes me think I'm doing a good job when I'm not. I realize not all managers are like me, but I have to imagine that many of us want feedback, be it good or bad. I want to make sure that you as an employee succeed at whatever it is you want to do. If that means you feel like you have a better opportunity elsewhere then that's my loss. I'll still be a reference if I think you deserve it.
Anyone want to work for me?
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:5, Insightful)
I believe I would have no problems working for you, based on that. That said, I've had excellent bosses at terrible companies. There's more to it than your immediate supervisor.
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:4, Insightful)
I can't answer every problem you bring to me, but I can at least hear you out and make suggestions or see what I can do on your behalf.
Telling me I'm the greatest person you ever worked for is the worst thing to say if it's not true - it makes me think I'm doing a good job when I'm not. I realize not all managers are like me, but I have to imagine that many of us want feedback, be it good or bad.
Dear Sir, You are an exception to the rule You may be that one gem out of the one gazillion rocks that genuinely want to hear the truth But my original advice still stands - for the rest of the 99.999999% of the bosses do not want to know the truth, and I ain't gonna want anyone to get hurt just because they thought truth is more important then their own future
I disagree. I think that most people are happy to act on rational, substantiated and objective criticisms. I am, you are, and so is the OP.
I am no longer young, and my decades of experience in office politics tells me that your ideals is blocking you from gaining a more thorough insight into true Human Nature
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery - updated (Score:5, Funny)
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Then you have to consider that they thought that was the cheaper option, and you should be thinking: cheaper than what?
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Then you have to consider that they thought that was the cheaper option, and you should be thinking: cheaper than what?
Usually, it's because a termination "contract" includes explicit instructions about things that should be implicit. Like sharing company secrets. Soliciting clients. It isn't because they owe you more money - it's because they want you to be extremely clear on their expectations, and the expectations placed upon you by common law. Rather than argue it out (and eventually win) in a lengthy court battle, the company pays you an extra 4 weeks of pay, and never has to worry about 6 months of lawyers fees (for
Re:Exit Interviews are always flowery (Score:4, Interesting)
None of this is universally true. But most of it is at least close to true for many people in USA. That's the unsurprising result of weak worker-protection laws, a government that is more or less company-owned, weak or non-existant labour-organization and high unemployment.
Of course any suggestion for improving any of the above is stamped as "socialist" and discarded. Meanwhile 93 cents out of every $1 of increas in national income over the last decade went to the top 1%.
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I can see that you miss the point. In the IT industry, you are EXPECTED to work unpaid overtime, you are EXPECTED to take work home and even though you may be legally allowed to take holidays, quite often the IT managers tell you that you can not take them when you wanted because there is not enough staff to cover the shifts (That means the manager wants to take holidays on the same period)
You sir, need to move to a better company... or if all of the companies where you live are like that, may I recommend another country?
Here, if you work overtime, you're either getting it off later in lieu or getting paid for it. If you work at home after hours, that's overtime and is treated the same way. If you want holidays and there's no very strong business reason to have you in the office, your boss can't stop you. If you haven't used all your holidays for the year, HR will tell your boss to go jump
Re:Easier headline... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know. I've had jobs I've hated so much that the exit interview provided some much needed catharsis to combat years of stress.
Re:Easier headline... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Easier headline... (Score:5, Interesting)
I once told my employer that I was leaving in three months. I honestly didn't know what I was doing when I left, but it had gotten so bad for me that I just had to leave. Telling them that I was going was a great weight off my chest. About a month before I was going to leave, they scheduled an exit interview for me. I told them what I thought about what was going on. I also packed what little personal items I had and took them home with me. When I showed up the next day, I had been bared from entering the building except to go directly to HR, where the president was waiting to talk to me to tell me why my resignation was being accepted early. I insisted that he was firing me, because for me nothing was different this day than the day before. If knowing how I felt makes that much difference to them, then they are firing me. So, as was eventually backed up by the state employment agency, they fired me (and still insisted that they were just taking my resignation early). Did I burn a bridge? Not one that I ever wanted to go back across unless they were willing to rebuild it from their end. It was the environment that they created that made me decide to leave, and as long as it was as petty and difficult as it was when I left, I don't care to return.
Re:Easier headline... (Score:5, Interesting)
I bet you're glad that's behind you! I've seen a few cases where 4 weeks notice was given and the employer opted to just pay out the remaining 4 weeks (or force leave to be taken) because of a perceived risk (employee moving to another job etc), but this option was in the employment contract. 3 months is a bit of a stretch though, especially as you thought you were giving them plenty of notice.
Re:Easier headline... (Score:5, Insightful)
if you need a shrink to talk to, hire one.
go to a bar. chat with the bartender.
find some person online and vent to them.
venting is useful and needed.
but never vent to HR.
Re:Easier headline... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Easier headline... (Score:5, Funny)
The one time I burned a bridge, I brought gasoline with me. My old boss was shaking so bad he could not tell me to "get out". I had a standing ovation as I left the building by co workers.
If you are going to burn a bridge, make sure it's epic and they can see it from orbit.
Re:Easier headline... (Score:5, Funny)
He saw it in a movie.
Re:Easier headline... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think that's true. One of the biggest reasons people voluntarily leave a company is because they didn't like their immediate manager. That's true at bad companies, and it's especially true at otherwise great companies.
One problem during normal employment is that, very often, you are supposed to take complaints first to your immediate manager. If you don't like him, you have to either go around him (which could get you in trouble with him) or go to HR (which could get you in trouble with him).
That said, if you do work for a good company, they may not realize that your manager isn't very good at his job. Someone has to be promoted to manager before the company learns how he manages, and not everyone will be able to adapt to it.
So, the exit interview could be a time to let someone at the company know that, while they are a really great place to work overall with an excellent business plan, communication plan, work/life balance plan, etc., you found yourself in a situation where you didn't care for your recent immediate manager and therefore chose to move on. I doubt you've burned many bridges saying something like that, and now they know. A good company might later be willing to hire you back, especially with all the nice things you said about them overall.
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I worked at HP quite a few years back. I loved the team I worked with for many years, but due to lost outsourcing opportunities and such, the team got split up, so I took the opportunity to move to another team and expand my experience. Ended up being a bad call on my part.
But for a couple of years, I built-up good experience and managed good projects, then they noticed and put me in a team where I was responsible for stuff I didn't want to do on the proviso that it was temporary. Temporary stretched for mo
Re:Easier headline... (Score:5, Insightful)
What about ENTER interview? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What about ENTER interview? (Score:4, Funny)
Not just at interviews. Whenever talking to a HR drone you should lie. e.g. Going to lunch? Yes (actually going to the titty bar).
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Maybe you must but that is only because once you lie once you are on a slippery slope. Take the high road and don't lie. Liars will win in the short game but honesty is the best strategy for the long game.
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Re:What about ENTER interview? (Score:4, Insightful)
Is this the same slashdot crowd that gets all uppity when a politician lies?
I smell the stench of hypocrisy in the air.
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You know, you remind me of this fable, about the donkey that was trained to live without eating......almost, because somehow it died at the end
Re:What about ENTER interview? (Score:5, Informative)
HR are part of the executive, disguised as employees, basically a corporate Trojan horse. Never trust HR. They are there to advance your employer's interests, not your interests. In all your dealings with HR, only ever do and say things that will advance your own interests.
Re:What about ENTER interview? (Score:4, Insightful)
I never lie at any interview, nor on my resume. However, I VERY carefully weigh what I say before saying it in order to manage perceptions. Of course one must be completely forthcoming during an interview, yet say very little. Otherwise they'll move on the next guy until they find one who fits their template. This next guy is going to have roughly the same skills as you unless one of you lied on your resume. If you've been honest on your resume, then it may as well be you that gets the job. It makes no difference to the company.
During employment you must continue to manage your image. And above all, never actually try to make things better. You were hired to do a job and it wasn't to fix the company. This is true even if you were told otherwise by the owner himself. There is a reason things are the way they are. "Good enough" makes money, and the customer is buying the perception of quality. If the markets were truly free, and the customer well educated then the lowest price for the best quality would win. Instead, a million small emperrors buy new high-priced clothes every day while government, investors, and the tech press cheer them on. If you're the guy trying to tell your boss that what he sees is what he gets, then you're going to get fired. Because while you're telling your boss that he's being stupid, the "smart" people are telling him he's brilliant.
Re: (Score:3)
my inability to get a job may be due in part to my reluctance to even slightly bend the facts
If that is true, Spock would never land his position in the Enterprise
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Re: (Score:3)
You don't have to compromise your principles to be flexible. Nor must you lie to manage perceptions. Above all, don't give in and start doing what you think they want you to. Because then, instead of feeling some measure of respect for you, they can simply condecend to and pitty you.
I don't hate liers because it's too much effort direct too many ways. Instead I save my energy for the few people I can respect, and leave the rest to fail on their own.
Be Nice You Might be hired back (Score:4, Insightful)
Happened to me when they ran out of people to do the work.
Re:Be Nice You Might be hired back (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
Very true. Be nice, be as honest as you can without stepping on any toes, and don't burn any bridges if you can avoid it. The world is much smaller place than many people realize, and even if you don't end up back at the same company there is a good chance you might end up with some of the same co-workers one day.
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The co-workers who were decent probably had the same experience you had. So they can swap horror stories over beer with you.
The other ones are ones you probably don't want to work with anyway.
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I live in an area where all the IT people know each other. We all know which company is worth working for and which isn't, who pays well and who doesn't. The area is small enough where you speak ill of NO ONE, because tomorrow you may be interviewing with their cousin/sibling/friend.
Sucks. Since the corporation is sh*tty to work for. But I can't burn any bridges.
Depends who is doing the interview. (Score:5, Insightful)
If it is someone that can actually make changes be honest. If its an HR person forget it.
I disagree (Score:5, Interesting)
I had an appallingly bad manager some time ago who made my life hell with his ultra-micromanagment and his constant snooping. He finally drove me to leave and there was a bit of a showdown - I wouldn't exactly call it an exit interview but his boss was there. I told him exactly what I thought of him and why he was such a bad manager. I think he was actually surprised that his 'style' caused so much friction. Interestingly (though too late) several people came forward afterwards and told me they had had the same experiences with the same guy, and had asked for transfers to get away from him. My response of leaving was more extreme, but driven by the same problems. I heard a few weeks later he did get moved (not fired, unfortunately) and given a role that did not involve direct people-management. So these things can have a positive result for those you leave behind.
Re:I disagree (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not an exit interview. An exit interview is conducted by some HR flunky who has no real sway over anything. They're just doing their job and that typically involves recording your parting thoughts in your employee file. As the OP recommends, nothing particularly good will come to you as a result of being honest in an exit interview. Just smile and be friendly with the HR droid. You never know when you'll need a reference in the future and some anonymous HR person you never worked with looks up your file only to find a diatribe of complaints.
If you need a cathartic release, you're better off to go home and bash a printer with a baseball bat or something.
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The first exit interview I did was used by HR to write the requirements to hire my replacement. I was hired as a very junior SA, but did intermediate SA work, and the shop could no longer survive on a brand new SA. (I was the most senior SA technical skills wise in the division).
In my case, the manager blew it and forgot to tell HR I was leaving until I went down to turn in my badge. This was typical for him. HR was rather upset I was leaving because I gave them support on their computers and printers,
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I have to agree with this.
I had a similar experience when leaving. I was caught in a three way battle between my boss, his boss, and myself. I was the lowest ranked and ended up choosing to leave.
If you're considering "firing back" during an exit interview ask yourself the following questions:
1. Given the politics at play and the person I am speaking with what sort of outcome can I expect?
* There is no point in complaining if HR/higher up managers don't care or are complicit in the problems
2.
The Breakup (Score:5, Funny)
Baby, it's not me, it's you. If you'd have treated me better, I'd stay but this has been going on for too long.
Look, I've already begun seeing someone else and I don't want to cheat on you. Let's still be friends. Really, there's someone out there in this big world who is just right for you but that's not me. I really want you to be happy but I want to be happy too. I gotta go. I'll pick up my things later.
Next up: The sun will rise in the east tomorrow (Score:2)
Then set in the west.
There's nothing for anyone to gain, no follow-up, no repercussions, etc.
Move on.
Ask for money. (Score:5, Insightful)
Advice is not free.
I disagree (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I disagree (Score:4, Insightful)
very uncommon experience.
you had your one. don't expect another in your lifetime.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I don't normally reply to anon or trolls, but what the devil are you smoking? What a total misuse of "THE exception that proves the rule" you blithering monobrowed goatbanger. This instance the exception BREAKS the rule, making it not a rule. Dear lord.
Here, read up on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule [wikipedia.org]
Sometimes it does good (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked for the biggest jerk in the world, and when I quit, I told H/R the things he had done to me, and urged them to not just take my word but to ask around.
Later that week, they fired him and escorted him out (not typical there).
The next day, my former coworkers had a going-away party for him, but they didn't invite him (and they did invite me).
Was nice once (Score:5, Interesting)
-KI
STOP!: Time is money friend! (Score:3)
If you're leaving otherwise secure employment for greener pastures, is it really worth your time to do an exit interview? If your leaving for money, realize that your time is now worth what you're getting paid at the new place!
I say Politely Decline!
Or if they insist, schedule one for the last day you are there, and don't show up.
Here's why,
1. It's too easy to say stuff you might regret. Your leaving, your shoulders are light, and your tongue is heavy. You never know who is friends w/ that HR guy.
2. Even if you are rational enough to point out exactly what was wrong w/ this company w/o belittling anyone, How can you articulate that in a way that won't burn a bridge or how will HR interpret that?
3. You can't resist telling them off? Write a letter to HR, and whomever else you think might need to know. It'll be quicker than an interview, and you can sit on it before sending it. You will probably have someone actually read it.
4. Plan to leave like you're coming back next year. The grass isn't always greener (trust me, I made a lateral move for a higher end potential only to take a per hour pay cut north of 30%, My former boss only has to slightly hint that one day they'll need additional staff before I tell them I'm ready to come back. In my personal hypothetical future case, it won't be my boss, I'm actually quite fond of their leadership, it'll be the guy 2 levels up, who publicly mocked how we had to work all this OT, but not 1 breath later mentioned he's getting a fat bonus check for meeting our deadlines.
(This really happened in front of > 75 people.)
Only if there's severance pay involved... (Score:5, Insightful)
...and then be blandly pleasant. Otherwise, just don't do it. What are they going to do, fire you?
I'm always amused at the naive goodwill that people extend to their employers. Most of us live in at-will states, without unions, and without any real workers' rights that can be exercised without spending more than they're worth retaining counsel. These are the people who can fire you at any time for any reason, but they want two weeks' warning if you leave on your own. Why give them extra freebies?
Look, forget the employer-employee bullshit. You are a vendor, selling a service. Your employer is a customer. As long as they're buying what you're selling at the best price you can get (which includes work conditions and perceived job security as well as pay and benefits), the customer is always right. As soon as they stop buying, or you find someone willing to pay more, then go attend to your new customer. The old customer wants to take more of your time for free? Politely decline. You're running a business -- you -- and the only point in giving something away free is if it leads to another sale.
Don't bother with work ethic or pride in your job at this point. Those are good concepts and they have their place, but that place is well before anyone starts talking about exit interviews. If you're leaving voluntarily, they treated you well, and you feel like extending the courtesy, sure. But even then, don't say anything that can be used against you later. It's just business, and that's how they see it. Go and do likewise.
A very wise manager once told me. (Score:5, Insightful)
A extremely wise manager once told me, people do not quit their jobs, they fire their bad managers.
I've never told anyone (Score:3)
I've never told anyone how I've felt about working with them: "be careful of the toes you step on today, as they may be connected to the arse you have to kiss tomorrow"
No dog in this fight? (Score:3)
Everything depends on why you are leaving.
Case 1: You are leaving because you had a better offer from another company. In this case, you have nothing in particular to gain by telling the exit interviewer anything at all. You neither benefit by telling the truth nor by lying.
Case 2: You have been fired. Again, you have nothing to gain by either telling the truth or lying.
Case 3: You have been laid off as part of a reduction in force and there is a possibility that if business improves they'll hire you back. In this case you have something to gain by flattering the company and its people. Tell them how much you regret leaving. Tell them they were great to work with and you wish things were different.
Case 4: You are leaving because you didn't like the working conditions, had moral objections to the way management runs the company, your boss was a giant prick, etc. You have nothing to gain by telling the truth or lying.
But in the absence of having anything to gain, there are still motivations that come into play. Would you like to make working conditions better for the people you're leaving behind? Chances are you don't despise all of them. Identify the wasteful and counterproductive practices, useless or abusive bosses and meaningless makework that were part of your job. Tell your interviewer how they made your job harder and are still making others lives harder. Maybe, just maybe, this information will get to the right people, especially if you were a highly productive employee. Somebody knows that. In all likelihood your boss and maybe your boss's boss know that. And now they know they are losing productive employees in part because of their working environment.
In most cases, you should lie about salary. Tell them you are taking a job that pays more, allows you more control of your work and offers more benefits. HR is always trying to find the lowest total cost of benefits and salary at which they can hire and retain the people they need. It is in all workers' best interest if their estimates are pushed to the high side. And the HR people at the company you're leaving talk, directly or indirectly, to the people at the company you're going to, and to every other company where you or someobody you care about might eventually work.
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In one exit interview, I pointed out that the company's salary cost savings had resulted in a brain drain so extreme that it had put them in the bizarre position where someone could quit the company and then get rehired at a substantial increase in pay. I was told that this was impossible, and I responded by naming two people for which this was the case. (They had bragged about it.) HR rep was somewhat taken aback. I don't know if the policy was ever changed, though. The dot com boom was beginning and
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In most cases, you should lie about salary. Tell them you are taking a job that pays more, allows you more control of your work and offers more benefits.
LOL I told them I was taking less money. It was a dramatically better job, but corporate HR types would never understand the tech and lifestyle reasons. The lower salary blew their little minds. The department and the whole company was shutting down anyway, so its not like I had coworkers to defend, and the lower salary was still a very large multiple of unemployment, so I was happy.
The best engineering solution is always the one with the fewest parts, smallest, cheapest and simplest. Oddly enough a exi
Bullshit (Score:3)
I had the opportunity to burn bridges that needed burning in an exit interview once.
I took complains, issues, and documentation. They took it seriously, and shook the hell out of the department when I left. My manager was "promoted" to a position where he had no staff. Soon after, he 'left.'
Exit interviews are situational, like everything else in life. Treat accordingly.
I disagree - exit interviews can be very useful (Score:3)
It all depends on what actions are taken with the information - and who does the interviews.
A few years ago now - over a period - my company lost several key developers - and tech experts. I don't work for our HR department - but I was working as a peer (with 15+ years experience) to those that had left. I rapidly got fed up with seeing some really good colleagues leave - and so I requested to as many as I could to exit interview them. Noone that I asked declined - as they knew that I wasn't from HR - and I explained that the main reason was to improve the company - and try to fix the issues that they had with it. I had quite a detailed set of questions - and collected answers in the same manner from all. Then I went through the answers - and came up with suggestions to improve things. One of the key things for our company was - that when tech experts / devs get to a certain level - the only career paths open to them - was management or sales - and most wanted neither. I started the changes such that we managed to introduce a technical expert career track - which means that you can now be a tech expert all the way up to the second to top level in our company (top level being director / CEO). Subsequently I got comments from those that left that if this had happened earlier - then they might not have left. There were many other issues that we took forwards and tried to address - some with success - some not. I've always believed that it is best to try to fix the company I work for before looking outside. If the company I work for ever becomes closed to these fixes - then I will up sticks and go elsewhere.
Glassdoor (Score:3)
An exit interview is giving information for nothing in return. I appreciate much more when people post their own reviews on Glassdoor.com rather than just sharing their thoughts with HR.
True, it can even be harmful... (Score:3)
Once in my life I was honest in an exit interview and it came back to haunt me later...
I had an exit interview after I had worked for a automotive-related company in the Netherlands. At the time, it was promised to me that whatever I said in this interview would remain a private matter between me and the HRM department and would be used in an anonymous context to improve things. Even so, I refrained from making any remarks towards the functioning of individual colleagues or my boss, and only commented on the serious flaws in research and development strategy the company (and my department) deployed, which were actually the reasons I decided to leave. It was constructive feedback. No ranting, nothing of the kind. I outlined a strategy that would, in my opinion, work out. My arguments seemed to be taken seriously and I went away with the feeling that at least I did what I could to steer things in the right direction...
About three years later I was invited back for an interview by a different department of the same company who had specific needs for my expertise and I felt that in this department I could do some useful work. However, before I was hired, I was invited by my former department head for an interview. In this interview the gloves came off: He had an exact copy of everything I had said in the previous exit interview before him and he was NOT amused. He said the interview was "to see if I had learned something in the meantime" but it was blatantly obvious that he was going to block me from being hired back. Didn't need to because I declined immediately after I learned how HRM had handled this.
In the end, it turned out for the better, because it was one of the events that prompted me to start my own company and I am now making more money that I could ever have made over there and I am sure having a lot more fun doing it. Still it sucked at the time...
Move somewhere that hates them... (Score:4, Interesting)
In this case, the management of the company I was leaving telling the new company that I was "not a team player" and all the other drivel serves me better than a glowing review. Of course, it's worth noting that I had been a liaison to the new company prior to moving there, so they already knew I was a hard worker and competent.
If you are the kind of person... (Score:3)
Who can not be honest even when people are willing to listen and the chance of personal consequences is far-fetched, I have to say that your current employer is not losing anything by you living.
Just speak your mind. The company may not put much weight on any one opinion, but they most probably do care about a statistical picture of people leaving the whole company or a specific department.
The only place I've ever seen it done right (Score:5, Interesting)
I used to work at a place where the local director was the absolute power king over every employee, every division, every task in the geographic area. He had to report up the line to someone from a different city, but if it happened in or around Houston he was responsible for it. Call him a "choke point" if you like but there was no "stovepiping" in the organization. Such would be impossible since he knew everything that was going on.
He also knew every name of all 2000 of his employees, their spouses names, and most of their kids names. The guy was amazing to work for and almost no one ever left.
Anyone who did leave (most via retirement) got an hour of his time. It was an unstructured time. He asked few if any questions. Anything you said was heard by the only person in the place who could unilaterally fix any problem. He was there to thank you for your years of service and hear anything you had to say.
Understand, please, that this was a guy who fixed problems. I once saw him suspend an entire working group for a day and send them home because of the way they had treated a retail customer. He then called all the first and mid-level managers in that department and ordered them to drive in from their outlying offices, stand at the counter, and serve the walk-in customers for the rest of the week while he personally conducted customer service training for the suspended employees. Sweetest guy you'd ever want to meet but, boyohboy, he could kick ass when he was forced.
Given all that, not much changed after he heard an exit interview because few people had witnessed enough continuing bad behavior to warrant a change. Still, the few bad managers we had would try, years in advance, to transfer out employees who were nearing retirement. If you were a jerk boss and you let someone retire out of your group, The Director would hear about you. And you would, quite likely, find yourself demoted to working alongside the people you used to boss around. If he was told about a real equipment safety problem, you'd see him talking to the maintenance guys and their boss, personally, to find out how to fix it. If he was told that the paper workflow in a certain place was screwy, you'd see him drop in to shadow some low-level employee for a day.
Hell, he shadowed two field employees per year for an entire day of public interaction out of general principle. Truly a great guy.
That was a quarter-century ago. I realize times are different now and people are much more mobile. No executive could spend an hour with everyone who leaves; there aren't enough hours in the day. Thus, exit interviews, even if they happen, are conducted by an HR drone.
Exit interviews to an HR department are a waste of time. Exit interviews with the big boss can be something completely different.
Re: (Score:2)
How do I tell my HR drone that the boss is a greedy Jew rat that's too busy counting shekels to notice that he's a curse upon the earth?
Redundant. They know he's a greedy number cruncher, that's why he was promoted.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
You be nice in an exit interview to keep vindictive assholes from getting an excuse to stab you in the back when they're called on your next job application during a reference check.
When you need someone's help, you kiss their ass.
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my last memorable HR story was when I was at a smallish (100 or less) startup and a year after I joined, they wanted to change some employee handbook policies. they had sent around new HB's to everyone and insisted that everyone sign their copy and return the sheet to HR. I, of course, refused. I saw no benefit in that. from then on, I was on their blacklist and when the first downsizing round came, sure enough, I was on that proverbial boat ride. of course, 3mos later, the whole place closed down; but
Re:Wish I could've had one at HP (Score:5, Funny)
Let it go Carly.