Google Using Pre-Katrina Imagery on Google Maps

Thirdsin writes "CNN reports that images of lands devastated by Hurricane Katrina have been replaced on Google's map service with pre-Hurricane Katrina imagery. Now a subcommittee from The House Committee on Science and Technology has asked CEO Eric Schmidt for Google's motivation behind the imagery switch. '[Congressional subcommittee chair Brad] Miller asked Google to brief his staff by April 6 on who made the decision to replace the imagery with pre-Katrina images, and to disclose if Google was contacted by the city, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the U.S. Geological Survey or any other government entity about changing the imagery. "To use older, pre-Katrina imagery when more recent images are available without some explanation as to why appears to be fundamentally dishonest," Miller said.' It is worth pointing out that images from Google Earth have not been changed."

We'll never know

Obviously google is going to say this is because of some little technical reason, and there's no real meaning to it. Is that true? Probably, but maybe not. We'll never know.

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Well, the pre- images are unflooded. I don't think most of the area is still flooded (though a lot is pretty grim looking), so the flooded pictures that were up for so long, while fascinating, are probably even more inaccurate than the pre- images. Reall

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They do this in areas that are completely unrelated to Katrina as well.. This [google.ca] road now exists, and doesn't in fact go through those buildings or those fields. That construction project in that area took almost 2 years to complete and Google shows it as it

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Google used to use newer (flooded) images, then went back to older (unflooded) ones. It's not that they're outdated that's strange, it's that they went backwards.

Isn't it fairly obvious? Images of land under 6 feet of water are largely useless for navigation. If the newest images they have are flood images, it stands to reason that at some point you'd want to get some images showing dry land, with streets, landmar

Dependency on Google

My guess is that one reason the senator cares is that his staff rely on Google to get their job done. It's interesting to see that throughout the federal government, workers are becoming dependent on various Google information services despite the fact that the govt. has put a lot of effort into building its own mapping services .

I wonder what other parts of government are dependent on Google's functionality, and what would happen if Google was interrupted.

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My guess is that one reason the senator cares is that his staff rely on Google to get their job done. It's interesting to see that throughout the federal government, workers are becoming dependent on various Google information services despite the fact that the govt. has put a lot of effort into building its own mapping services.

I see this as a good thing. Lets have massive reductions in the government mapping department. Fire some unnecessary employees and make whatever raw photos and GIS data the government collects easily available to google maps and potential competitors.

Re:Dependency on Google

I don't guess but am pretty sure you missed the reason for concern in the original article.

Becoming dependent on a commercial entity for providing you with data important for the ability of your democraticaly chosen government to take decisions is extremely dangerous.

When you on occasion not like the actions of your elected officials you would take corrective action at the next election, something you can't do with a Google.

Re:Dependency on Google

I happen to work for a county and support our GIS group (along with a dozen other county departments)

Lots of the folks in the GIS group use google maps and google earth for quick and dirty stuff. We even use a google maps mashup on our main site for anything that requires a quick and dirty mapping application (voting locations, locations of sex offendors, etc)

That said, it is not a replacement for the GIS department, but it does help keep the size of the department in check. There are a few gotchas with the use of google:

1) Google earth is not free.
      It is free for non-commercial use only. Everybody else has to pay.

2) The imagery is old
      We do flyovers every two years minimum. The stuff on google is often 5+ years old for some parts of the county (the copyright date gets updated, but the images do not)

3) The data is not nearly as accurate
      For quick and dirty work, google earth is ok. But we have had to work on areas where google only has 1m or worse. We have 6" resolution for the entire county. It is also been rectified and fixed and things like plot lines and street centerlines are dead on. I've played with image overlays before, and google can be 20+ ft off in one direction or another. That is simply not acceptable when you are trying to figure out where you are going to put a street.

4) Ever try and plot a 6' by 42" map using google earth at full resolution with plot line overlays and dozen of other custom features that the customer wants for a presentation? Didn't think so.

So, if all the gis department does is provide non-rectified 1 meter satellite photos from 10 years ago... yeah, time to ditch them and use google. For anything else, you are going to need a gis group.... It does not have to be large, but it better exist.

I find it hard to believe anything malicious

is going on.

Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory, but I'd be willing to bet it was simply decided based on quality/resolution of images, and some underling working on it didn't really think about the fact that it the imagery in question is significantly different from how it looks now.

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If I do a map of my home, in far-from-Katrina-hit Florida, the imagary is also around two years old (at least.) It's not newly replaced either, it's been pretty much the same maps since I discovered Google maps.

I'd be surprised if Google has replaced an

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but I'd be willing to bet it was simply decided based on quality/resolution of images

I dunno. The after pictures seemed to have as high a resolution as the before pics IMO.

Re:I find it hard to believe anything malicious

"but I'd be willing to bet it was simply decided based on quality/resolution of images, and some underling working on it didn't really think about the fact that it the imagery in question is significantly different from how it looks now."

I'd like to take you up on your bet.

If google regularly revises its images on google maps, sometimes rolling them back in time for reasons of quality or resolution, I'd believe it. I doubt that any American would mistakenly upload old images of New Orleans, no matter their seniority or expertise, given what a giant story Katrina was. If it was a simple underling's error, why hasn't it been rolled back yet?

One factor you are ignoring is that by using old images, they have made their maps less accurate. The idea of a map is that you know where you are and what the things around you look like. Imagine they had access to super hi-rez satellite images from the 1980s. Should they use them? They *do* have higher resolution ...

Of course not! Lots has changed and been built in the US since the 1980s. You would just be creating a very hi-rez, inaccurate map. Who needs that? Who cares if you have higher-rez images of the past? You don't want them on a current map.

The fact is that the fallout from Katrina, and the fact that very little has improved two years later, is a serious blight on America's image as a first-world-nation. You expect this kind of thing in Africa or South America. I don't have any evidence for my particular interpretation, but you certainly don't have any for yours.

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One factor you are ignoring is that by using old images, they have made their maps less accurate.

One factor that you ignoring, is the 'newer' imagery wasn't particulary accurate either. They showed a city deluged by water - which it hasn't been for over

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One factor you are ignoring is that by using old images, they have made their maps less accurate. The idea of a map is that you know where you are and what the things around you look like.

New Orleans has been dry for over a year, and you think that an image showing it under water is more accurate? The old images which actually show all the ROADS are more useful for navigation.

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The U.S.A. is the richest country on earth, yet the state of much of New Orleans is an absolute disgrace. Much of what happened in terms of immediate relief at the time was a total and utter shambles. The long term distribution of aid to those effected has

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You have a valid point, but I think there will always be a need for a port on the mouth of the Mississippi river. It was the fifth largest port in the US, IIRC. That's the difference between New Orleans and beach-front resort property in Florida. We don't

Who cares?

Why exactly is this the government being so heavy-handed with Google? Do critical government/health/military services depend on Google Maps? I can't think of any decent conspiracy theory, so I am not sure about this. There are certainly better things Uncle Sam can do with his time than worry about one company's map-charting policies.

The simple explanation

Google is viewed by most politicians (mind you most politicians couldn't tell you what html is) as being the defacto standard of the internet in terms of searching, maps etc. So when something is falsified, accidentally or on purpose, they view it as their

What-the?

Are you kidding? Our Congress is investigating why google has made a change in its maps? And they're fishing for someone to start a political brawl with?

Don't we have... I don't know, something related to government services that they should be doing? Or, if it's going to be related to business, related to business that has a significant impact on consumers? Or poverty? Or taxes? Or services? Or the debt? We (as a nation) have a nine trillion dollar credit card debt, and we're worried about whether google's mapping decision was something we can get into a political scuffle about?

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I tend to agree with you that this is a waste of time....but the government actually can do more than one thing at once.

And I'm not sure I understand what you are implying they should be doing about credit card debt.

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I tend to agree with you that this is a waste of time....but the government actually can do more than one thing at once.

That is no doubt true, but the question still remains - what makes this an issue requiring the involvement of government? I fail to see

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I'd normally agree as a libertarian, but if, for example, the images were removed due to government pressure, then yes, it is the government's business.

Huh?

Maybe I'm missing something, but the lower Ninth doesn't look like it's been flooded in my version of Google Earth. Did I miss something?

just use Google Earth

Who knows why they changed it? Who cares? I suspect Google management has better things to do than to sit around discussing whether to put up pre- or post-Katrina images.

Just use Google Earth if you're going to do anything GIS-related.

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I suspect Google management has better things to do than to sit around discussing whether to put up pre- or post-Katrina images.

That seems like a reasonable thing for a manager within their maps division to discuss, to me anyway.

4-dimensional imagery

Someday Google will combine satellite, airplane and ground-level imagery to give limited 3-D flythrough maps.

Add add animation for changes over time and presto you've got a 4-D map!

Maybe this is the non-working mock-up prototype???

Googleearth and googlemaps the same for me

I'm running the Linux version of googleearth, 4.0.2091 (beta) and the image from New Orleans are clearly pre-Katrina, and are in fact the same images used by maps.google.com (the cars are all in the same places on the roads, for instance.)

Thad

Google Earth has been changed as well.

My Version of Google Earth (4.0.2722 Build Date Jan 5 2007)has everything along the New Orleans/Mississippi Gulf Coast damage region pre-Katrina.

It's fracking useless, guys. Nice going.

Visibility of streets?

Perhaps they were aiming to provide better visibility of streets and buidlings, so it would be easier to find your way around.

BTW, what about date tagging for each given area (whatever size would be best, I can't guess) you see in GoogleEarth? After all, t

It's a map.

Google is just showing FEMA and everyone else where everything goes. Judging by the results thus far, they have no idea.

How could they know?

We've got to be able to get some imagery on that area, old or new. Well how could they be changing them if they don't know we're coming? ... Break off the attack, the images have been changed!

I only get cached images. Are you sure?

Pull up! All Cong

In other news

Get directions from New York, ny to Paris, France using Google Maps -> Directions.

Interesting...

Re:Surprising mistake by Google

By not taking the curvature of the earth into account with these directions, they have made your swim much longer than it needs to be

Indeed. Noting this, [Congressional subcommittee chair Brad] Miller was quoted as saying, "To use a straight line path across the map when greater circular paths are shorter without some explanation as to why appears to be fundamentally dishonest."

Google can do what they want, *but*...

Google can do whatever they want, but you have to admit, it seems odd to revert to an older set of imagery. As there was nothing obviously wrong with the existing post-Katrina imagery as far as end users could tell, there isn't any obvious explanation.

Whi

This is bogus

"To use older, pre-Katrina imagery when more recent images are available without some explanation as to why appears to be fundamentally dishonest

Google Earth/Maps are geospatial tools for navigation, data visualization, aggregation, etc. It is NOT a political weapon, and it is not an ELT for interpreting imagery. If you have imagery of flooded streets or debris covered areas, you DON'T USE IT for navigation. You use imagery that shows the streets and matches your vector data.

Re:Congress: STFU.

I'm confused. You say Congress STFU and then mention fema which is under the executive branch.

your sig

Do out of use (ancient) prison's count? If so, yes.

Do I get half a point for being tortured at a turkish bath in Istanbul?

Re:Congress: STFU.

It's pretty pathetic that Wal-Mart did more to help the victims of Katrina than the US FEMA did, in the terms of cash and donated goods.

"Wal-Mart has given $17 million in cash, the largest corporate cash contribution to date, in addition to $3 million in products.
{USA Today] reports there are advantages to donating products instead of cash. The Internal Revenue Service allows a tax deduction greater than the products' costs..." Corporate Katrina gifts could top $1B [cnn.com] September 13, 2005

FEMA provided about $6 billion dollars in aid directly to Katrina victims Katrina fraud cases [katc.com]

Re:Congress: STFU.

"I have chosen to live in ... Arizona" ...

"Why should my tax dollars go to people who have chosen to live in disaster-prone areas?"

Why should my tax dollars go to people who have chosen to live in areas that DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH WATER TO SUPPORT THE POPULATION except through federally funded water projects?

http://cals.arizona.edu/AZWATER/awr/janfeb07/featu re1.html [arizona.edu]

STFU, really.

--
BMO

Re:Congress: STFU.

Hmm, I live in an area that's free of disasters, and gets enough rain.

You both need to GTFO and STFU. Give me money for not deciding to live somewhere people shouldn't be living.

And with that money, I will invest in plywood sales in Florida.. yesss..

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I agree with both of you. It's almost as if this country was segmented in semi-autonomous regions, who could collect taxes and pay for improvements for the people who live in them, without involving the rest of the country. Then, a larger government that

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(I apologize this has strayed so far off topic)
I won't even comment on your racist "non-white people who survive on government assistance", it's a bullshit argument that can not be supported by any real evidence. As far as Florida relying on income from t

Re:Congress: STFU.

"Why should my tax dollars go to people who have chosen to live in disaster-prone areas?"

You're failing to look at the big picture. The reason is because New Orleans is one of the busiest ports in the world. All of the goods we send down the Mississippi river enter the ocean through the port of New Orleans. Of course, the port is more than just long docks and loading cranes. Part of the infrastructure of the port are the human workers who actually make the thing go. All of the people who live in New Orleans provide the human infrastructure to keep the port running. That's the reason they live there -- the port needs human laborers to keep the cargo coming in. Those human laborers need places to sleep at night, places to eat, places to buy groceries from, etc. You get the idea.

The problem with ports is that they have to be on the water. We can't build ports in the middle of Montana so that they will be safe from hurricanes. Ports, which hopefully I don't need to explain are a vital part of our infrastructure, will periodically be threatened by flooding and hurricanes. As a society, we have to band together to create massive projects such as ports so we can import our morning coffee from South America and send our DVDs to Europe. You won't personally be conscripted to work on the port itself, like in the pyramid-building days of ancient Egypt, but you will have to pitch in some money in the form of taxes. Or, we could just let our ports be destroyed, one by one, after each flood or hurricane. We don't really *need* bananas from Brazil, or rice from China. But I don't think you'll find much to eat in the middle of your desert.

As a society, we did fuck up the New Orleans situation. We had a horrifically inadequate levy system. Politicians at all levels failed to bring them up to par for decades. As a society, we didn't plan ahead to protect our infrastructure, and now we are paying for it.

I do agree that if people are taking risks, such as building million-dollar beachfront homes in California or Florida, we don't need to subsidize them through taxes. However, we do need a port on the mouth of the Mississippi, and we need to make sure that that port will be manned no matter what natural disasters threaten it.

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The port by definition will be above the waterline. How did you go from "we need the port" to "we need to build and maintain levees to protect homes built 14 feet below sea level? If that port generates that much traffic, the commerce will pay for the buil

True, however

There is something to be said for the plan of building the actual port where it is and moving the rest of the city (at least the parts below sea level) a little further away. In fact such a plan was suggested in the reconstruction. Given that everything is

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"I don't understand..."

Judging by your lack of empathy, you are quite possibly Autistic. It's quite simple really, "no man is an island", however your post lends weight to the argument that you are "no man".

"Where's my government check for not being

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I guess I just don't see the evil here.

For all we know it was just because imagery taken earlier made a nicer mosaic next to the other satellite imagery they had and scored higher on some resolution vs. lack of clouds vs. temporal accuracy metric and were

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Google Earth imagery is worth every penny you paid for it. You paid zero pennies for it and so at this point, you take what they give you or go use an alternative services. Both yahoo and msft are also offering sattelite imagery. Feel free to use them. But

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Error or otherwise, it should be resolved.

I agree with you. The part I disagree with is Congree getting involved in businesses'...business.

You have a very straightforward way to tell Google your opinion: stop using their products.

Welcome to the market. Enjoy your stay.

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I'm not trying to be rude, but it's Google Earth, not Google Fragbait's Nostalgic Memories of his Childhood... it's marketed as the most accurate representation of Earth as Google can muster, so having them roll-back controversial, and indeed important, g