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United States The Almighty Buck News

Ontario to Match U.S. DST Change 454

Devastator writes "CBC is reporting that Ontario will be the first Canadian province to change daylight savings rules to reflect the changes happening in the U.S in 2007. Attorney General Michael Bryant says 'the province's economy was the deciding factor and that if Ontario isn't on the same time as the United States, it will be hurt financially.'"
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Ontario to Match U.S. DST Change

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  • by phorm ( 591458 )
    Last time I checked, both Canada and the US did trade with countries other than each other. Some of these are in other time zones. Hell, there's a 3h discepancy between here (BC) and Ontario, and I live in the same country.

    I hope that a lot of people come out very vocally to demonstrate what a stupid idea this is, and how it's just a case of nose-to-ass following without justification.
    • What is even dumber is whole "clocks changing" half the year standard time, half the year daylight savings time. It makes little sense today.

      Every state should pick one, and hopefully pick the SAME one.
      • by Lev13than ( 581686 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @07:20PM (#13840979) Homepage
        What is even dumber is whole "clocks changing" half the year standard time, half the year daylight savings time. It makes little sense today.

        In other news, the World Will End At Midnight..... 12:30 in Newfoundland.
      • by koick ( 770435 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @07:25PM (#13841018)
        Straight from the mighty wikipedia [wikipedia.org]:

        Rationales for DST

        One of the major reasons given for observing DST in the United States is energy conservation. Theoretically, the amount of residential electricity needed in the evening hours is dependent both on when the sun sets and when people go to bed. Because people tend to observe the same bedtime year-round, by artificially moving sunset one hour later, the amount of energy used is theoretically reduced. United States Department of Transportation studies showed that DST reduces the country's electricity usage by one percent during each day DST is in effect.

        Part of the reason that it is normally observed in the late spring, summer, and early autumn is because during the winter months the amount of energy saved by moving sunset one hour later is negated by the increased need for morning lighting by moving sunrise by the same amount. During the summer most people would wake up after the sun rises, regardless of whether daylight saving time is in effect or not, so there is no increased need for morning lighting to offset the afternoon energy savings.

        Another perceived benefit of DST is increased opportunities for outdoor activities. Most people plan outdoor activities during the increased hours of sunlight. Other benefits cited include prevention of traffic injuries (by allowing more people to return home from work or school in daylight), and crime reduction (by reducing people's risk of being targets of crimes that are more common in dark areas).

        When the U.S. went on extended DST in 1974 and 1975 in response to the 1973 energy crisis, Department of Transportation studies found that observing DST in March and April saved 10,000 barrels of oil a day, and prevented about 2,000 traffic injuries and 50 fatalities saving about U.S. $28 million in traffic costs.
        • I don't buy it.

          In Florida, at least, 1 more hour of sunlight = 1 less hour of lights and 1 more hour of A/C running on "high" instead of "med/low" (depending on time of year).

          Its stupidity, no matter what kind of inane justification they try to put to it.
        • by YGingras ( 605709 ) <ygingras@ygingras.net> on Thursday October 20, 2005 @11:23PM (#13842186) Homepage
          The summer night is already so short. By artificially moving sun set later you have to be pretty damn motivated if you want to look at the stars. But looking at the stars is something free, something that doesn't require energy and something that anyone will enjoy if they have an opportunity to see them. Instead, we only see the sun in the evening. So every one just sit inside, with the lights on, just because they see better that way, event if the sun is still high and they watch TV because they have nothing better to do.

          Wanna save energy? Why don't you shutdown or at least dim all those fscking lamp posts after the rush hour? Do we really need to light up the streets so bright that at in any large enough city (and you know its not that large) the night sky looks like dawn all night long. Just try it, stop reading /. and go outside. Mars is in opposition and we are in the peak of the Orionids meteor shower. There is quite a show going on and its not too cold yet to stay hours laying on the ground.

    • You aren't kidding. If I recall, several states (like Indiana) don't use DST at all, so this would just through Ontario out of whack with them for an even longer period.

      But then again, a stupid decision made by a politician should never surprise anybody.
    • What? Like forcing people to attend French-speaking schools if their parents took a French course in High School, because that makes them count as a francophone?

      Some how, I don't see anyone resolving the whole Ontario being idiots thing.
    • by Guppy06 ( 410832 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @07:26PM (#13841019)
      "Last time I checked, both Canada and the US did trade with countries other than each other."

      But Canada and the United States are easily each other's biggest trading partners.

      "Some of these are in other time zones."

      But very few are on the same meridians and also north of the Equator.

      "3h discepancy between here (BC) and Ontario,"

      Not your province, not your problem. Gotta love federalism. You should be happy that it's Toronto talking about doing this and not Ottawa.

    • I hope that a lot of people come out very vocally to demonstrate what a stupid idea this is, and how it's just a case of nose-to-ass following without justification.

      There is a justification, re-read Michael Bryant's statement again about how it'll help Ontario financially. This isn't a new concept in the business world either. One variant, for example.. I work for a company located in Central time zone, but most of our customer's main offices are Eastern time zone, so we start at 8am instead of 9. To someon
    • by fm6 ( 162816 )

      Last time I checked, both Canada and the US did trade with countries other than each other.

      So what? The U.S. is not just another trading partner for Canada. The U.S. buys 85% of Canada's exports! And exports account for one-third of the Canadian economy. Do the math: for every dollar earned by a Canadian, 28 cents comes from selling stuff to the U.S.

      Hell, there's a 3h discepancy between here (BC) and Ontario, and I live in the same country.

      Again, so what? Ontario and New York State may be in different

      • by fish waffle ( 179067 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @08:51PM (#13841497)
        so the factory calls them first. No answer -- it's an hour earlier in Ontario, so the warehouse office is closed. Guess who gets the order?

        Oh my god, you're right---and that scenario must happen at least, what 1--2 times a year?! 10's, if not 20's of dollars could be lost!! Surely an excellent reason for millions of people to change their lifestyles!

        Canadians take note: you risk the complete loss of the incredibly lucrative industry that relies on emergency, last-minute blivet purchasing by morons who don't understand time zones and can't wait a hour!
  • by QuantumG ( 50515 ) <qg@biodome.org> on Thursday October 20, 2005 @06:44PM (#13840715) Homepage Journal
    they can change time itself.

    Woe.
    • In Canada it's up to each province how they deal with time law. In Saskatchewan we don't change our clocks for DST, we are on it year round. This means that in the Summer we are on MST essentially, and in the Winter on CST. We're used to our American stations having their timeslots "shifted" an hour every 6 months, and I for one like it. I lived in Ontario for a bit, and the time shift sucked. Who wants to go to work an hour earlier in the spring?
  • by dso ( 9793 ) * on Thursday October 20, 2005 @06:48PM (#13840752) Homepage
    This seems to be a typical Canada/US relation. It's like the old saying goes:

    "When you sleep with an elephant, if it rolls, you roll."

  • by N8F8 ( 4562 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @06:50PM (#13840765)
    ****NEWS FLASH*****
    Today the EU has pledged before the UN to create a new UN controlled Daylight Saving Time [wikipedia.org] system. Emperor Bono of the EU declared this pre-emtive strike a hit back at US hegemony over Savings time.
    • Funny you mention daylight savings, and a singer who can't count [dapslyrics.com] within the same sentence.
  • by MavEtJu ( 241979 ) <slashdot AT mavetju DOT org> on Thursday October 20, 2005 @06:53PM (#13840782) Homepage
    Wish the australian government would do the same, so that don't have to wake up stupidly early to make conference calls to the US East coast.
    • i live in queensland, and despite a great deal of business being done with the southern states, you wont get the farmers or hicks in the backwaters dealing with changing their clocks twice a year. Having the sun get up at 4-30am is not as useful to 99% of the people as having a few hours to do stuff in the evening after work. WTF is with getting home from work at 6pm and it being dark?

      there is an e-petition being circulated at the moment at
      http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/EPetitions_QLD/cg i-bin/Petitions [qld.gov.au]
      • Excuse me, Sir! This is a site for Nerds. We don't need the big ball of fire in the sky to "do stuff". With the undebated health risks of sun exposure, shouldn't we be implementing Daylight Limiting Time? Everything fun happens at night anyway, so why are we trying minimize our fun by saving daylight?
  • Damn (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Whiteout ( 828544 )
    That messes _this_ up:

    http://www.stemhaus.com/firefox/foxclocks/ [stemhaus.com]

    But at least it gives me the opportunity for a shameless plug :)

    Actually I'll add that as an Ontario resident, and a despiser of the current US regime, I think Ontario's move is entirely pragmatic: the US accounts for perhaps 80% of Canada's exports, and presumably a large portion of that comes overland from Ontario to the Eastern US. Having said that, I'll confess to the knee-jerk reaction that I don't want _my_ clocks set by a man who can't e
  • by grumpyman ( 849537 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @06:54PM (#13840794)
    It's only since 2001 that Canada just started using a 24-hour clock [radio.cbc.ca]. Listen here [media.cbc.ca]

    Something about Canada prime minister 'Jean Putin' and Bush LOL.

  • by anandpur ( 303114 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @06:55PM (#13840806)
    Mayor of Bangalore says "that if Bangalore isn't on the same time as the United States, it will be hurt financially"
  • UTC for everyone!
    • No thanks, where the sun is in relation to the meridian I'm standing on is far more important to me than where it is in relation to Greenwich (unless I'm actually in Greenwich). I'll offer you a compromise, though, and keep the time difference between Greenwich and myself down to integer hours.
  • financial reasons? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by boarder ( 41071 )
    I've never understand the argument that a business loses money by being in a different mode of Daylight Saving Time. I grew up in Indiana and never understood why other states changed their times, but I figured maybe we were just backward or stupid (which the state is, but for wholly different reasons). When I moved out to California I learned just how stupid DST really is. It is a terrible idea. It's not just that I'm too lazy to change the 12 clocks in my house/car/office, but more that in the winter
    • The basic reason for DST is that some of us don't like having the sun up at 4 AM and still trying to get sleep. By shifting the clocks to 5am, that gives an extra hour of sunlight in the evening and 1 less of having as many lights on.

      As for Indiana going to DST, my understanding is that since it had a time zone running right down the middle of it, it didn't make sense for it to switch.
      • Actually, if you want to be really specific about it, the Eastern time zone should end about half-way through Ohio. All of Michigan should be in Central time. That's what's causing the most discussion in my neck of the woods (northwestern Indiana), since there seems to be some consensus that since we're near Michigan, we should go to Eastern.

        This is the problem with local governments deciding time zones. Everyone has a half-baked reason why we should be eastern, when if you look at the freakin' map [time.gov], we're
    • Daylight saving time has no bearing on what time the sun rises or sets in the winter.
  • 2007? (Score:4, Funny)

    by davidc ( 91400 ) <cdpuffNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday October 20, 2005 @07:17PM (#13840955)
    You mean we have to wait until 2007 for this paltry half-assed extension of DST?

    Ugh! Government moves real slow, doesn't it? Come the bird flu we are doomed.

    We should adopt Double DST - as done in Europe in WWII. I don't mind geting up in the dark - hey, in the winter it happens whatever the clock says - but having lived in more northern latitudes I have to say that it is a PITA when it gets dark at 3:30 p.m. or so.

    Yes, I know you guys in Alaska get nearly 24h dark in the winter. Sorry! Can't buck nature..
  • This makes sense (Score:4, Informative)

    by Husgaard ( 858362 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @07:21PM (#13840987)
    Some years back each european country had their own rules for DST. Travelling through Europe around the times of year when changing to/from DST was hell if you wanted to know the local time.

    Then EU kicked in and harmonized the rules for changing to and from DST, and this had made everything a lot easier. Even EU countries in different time zones have the same rules, so you know the time difference is always the same.

    To me it really makes sense that nearby countries want to have the same rules for changing to/from DST.

  • by Y-Crate ( 540566 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @07:23PM (#13840993)
    The entire practice of Daylight Savings time is inane and utterly ridiculous.

    The primary reason for changing it yet again is to reduce overall fuel consumption. So, instead of mandating higher fuel economy (the average being lower than it was two decades ago) we choose to change time.

    Just stop and think about that for a moment. The insanity of it threatens to collapse in on itself and tear a hole in the universe.

    George H.W. Bush once said in response to calls for conservation that "The American way of life is not negotiable." We want what we want, when we want it, without having to deal with the realities and consequences of acquiring it. It's too inconvenient to consider that we might be taking the wrong road. We Americans get viciously defensive when anyone questions our habits and have to largely be forced into making any changes that will benefit us in the long-term. What pleases us this instant is usually the only concern we have.

    We assume that any problems can be glossed over and this stands as a prime example of glossing over a major one at our own peril. When gas prices rise, legions demand that the president "Do something about it". Just wave the magic wand, make the problem go away, let us go back to living the way we want to, even if it isn't sustainable, simply because we desire it. There is nothing wrong with desiring something, but having unrealistic expectations for receiving it is pure greed. I could stand up and demand that the local bank hand over a large sum of cash just because, but my desire alone does not validate my demand. We act as if we deserve low gas prices simply because we want them to be low and cannot reconcile the demand/price relationship whatsoever.

    If you choose to drive a vehicle that gets 12mpg, you really have no leg to stand on when you bitch about rising gas prices. You are part of the problem. You cannot, and should not be protected from the widespread impact of your choice. You are not a child. Grow up.

    When you buy into sprawl by moving into the latest subdivision on the edge of the city to escape the last subdivision you lived in on the old edge of the city, you do not generate much sympathy when you complain about your traffic woes, lack of greenspace or rising taxes. You are making the decision to encourage the kind of development which is unsustainable and lowers your quality of life. (Note: I know in some areas, there is little choice about the kind of neighborhood you live in - sprawl is the only option, but many, many people continue to move further and further out to the same kind of development they already live in expecting the process not to repeat and that they will somehow escape the sprawl, and become indignant when they have to deal with the consequences I mentioned above. This example referred to the active supporters of the lifestyle and not the helpless participants who have no other choice.)

    I may want to eat ice cream all day, but if I choose to do that (which I do not) I cannot demand to be thin. Most people would laugh at me if I did. Yet, when we are greedy and selfish in other ways, we act as if some Constitutional amendment has been violated if we actually have to face up to the effects our actions produce.

    Time to take out the pacifier and deal with matters properly.
    • .

      I live in an apartment in the heart of the 5th biggest city in North America. I walk to work. I've made choices in my life that allow me to do this.

      I wish I could buy an affordable house *and* walk to work. But the only affordable houses are 1 - 1.5 hours commute from here. Which sucks the big one. Who the hell wants to spend 2-3 hours a day commuting. But tons and tons of people do so, because they want a) a house, and b) a job they like.

      But what forces companies to have their headquarters in the co
  • So they'll also have to change it back when the stupid US version of the law gets pulled before its supposed to take effect.

    Damn near every DST-aware invention is going to be screwed when this happens for those four extra weeks.

    I think they should give us a three-week national holiday so that we don't have to deal with the chaos. Who's with me?
  • Why not UTC? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by vertinox ( 846076 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @07:29PM (#13841034)
    It would make things simple and just go by UTC [wikipedia.org]. So when we mean we are going to have a meeting in New York at 15:00, we mean we are going to have a meeting in California at 15:00.

    You make the time different based on what you are and work around the time... No the other way around. I wake up at 13:00 and you can wake up at 18:00 whever you may be. It would save the trouble of having to talk with other people in other time zones and always manually adjust the time.
    • Re:Why not UTC? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by teslar ( 706653 )
      Going to UTC won't change a thing.
      I would go to work from 0900 to 1700, the guy in Germany from 1000 to 1800, the American from 0200 to 1000 or whatever. You haven't gotten rid of timezones at all, you've simply hidden them away in a more confusing system.

      As it is now, at least I know when I go to the States, that I'll be able to go shopping at 1500 hours, because that's the way it is in my country too and human life tends to follow similar patterns. In your system, if I try buying something at 1500 hours,
      • human life tends to follow similar patterns. In your system, if I try buying something at 1500 hours, I'll get a strange look from people and they'll say 'you're not from around here, are you?'

        I agree with your points, but that problem exists with the current system too.

        Most societies have differing shut down times. Heck, here in the United Kingdom most towns have differing "half closing" days where the stores generally close half way through the day. Most European countries have similar arrangements. It's
      • In your system, if I try buying something at 1500 hours, I'll get a strange look from people and they'll say 'you're not from around here, are you?' So you've made it worse for me - not only am I jetlagged, I also have no ideas at what time I'm supposed to do what things - I'll simply be the laughing stock of the hotel employess when I demand my breakfast at 0800 hours.

        Maybe I am too used to things always being available 24 hours... But from my perspective I don't travel, but I always communicate with peopl
    • Re:Why not UTC? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by bergeron76 ( 176351 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @10:48PM (#13842046)
      Because almost _everything_ as we know it would have to change.
      For example, how do you tell your employees to be at work at 8:00 UTC if some of them are in New York and others are in California?

      Here's how: Have some of them come to work at 8:00 UTC, and others at 11:00 UTC? That is called having Time Zones.

      Time Zones exist because of geography and physics. The Sun and Moon will be a specific places in certain geographic regions at certain, erhm, times. Benjamin Franklin was the one that proposed "Daylight Savings Time" as we now know it - in order to save Paris "Millions of Dollars"(century adjusted) in Candlewax use.

      Candles were used for lighting homes at night back then.
  • Bah, I have a hard enough time remembering the time difference between myself (in Vancouver) and my parents (in Ottawa) without the time difference changing due to some new kind of DST. However, realistically, if Ontario is doing it, most other provinces (with the possible exceptions of ones which want to appear "distinct") will probably follow suit... no matter how silly they think the whole thing is. If something is annoying for me, it'll probably be even worse for someone running a business.
  • ... that any place crazy enough to get on the DST bandwagon should go all the way and adopt year-round DST. If a little of it is a good thing, and more is better, then shouldn't we maximize that goodness and adopt DST 365 days a year?

    I mean, in the absence of any sort of hard data as to whether or not there actually is any beneficial impact to DST (and one would think, that after a century of bickering about it, someone would have collected some data to statistically demonstrate that DST does ANYTHING, but
  • I have read all of the comments here and virtually all people are not understanding the issue here. As is stated in the article, Ontario did this for *economic* reasons.

    Ontario is US' largest trading partner in the entire world, and the vast bulk of that trade is with the eastern timezone states of the US. There are vast economic reasons for them to keep to the same daylight schedule as the US.

    There are literally no other reasons to do this, and if the reason was anything else, those complaining would have
  • I think we should set the clocks back 1 hour every Saturady night for a longer weekend and more time to party!!!

  • by Tester ( 591 ) <olivier.crete@ocr e t e.ca> on Thursday October 20, 2005 @08:17PM (#13841313) Homepage
    This is funny... Because a few days ago Quebec announced that it had decided to follow the US and that the gov of Qc was trying to convince Ontario and New Brunswick (that are also in EST). Radio-canada reported it [radio-canada.ca] (in French)
  • Excellent (Score:3, Interesting)

    by BeerMilkshake ( 699747 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @08:29PM (#13841385)
    With Ontario making the announcement, other provinces will follow, including the one I live in.

    Why is this great news? Because of all the software maintenance effort that will be required to upgrade the systems to comply. The additional workload will mean more money and maybe even a recovery in the job market after the tech bubble a few years back.

    This is the one thing GWB has done that will benefit me. Thanks George!

  • by CurbyKirby ( 306431 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @09:51PM (#13841801) Homepage
    While you're at it, have it last year-round. Not like it hasn't been done before:

    The last time the United States and Canada observed different winter time systems was during the 1974-75 oil crisis. The U.S. did not turn its clocks back at all that fall in an attempt to conserve energy.

    From http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/07/28/ daylight050728.html?print [www.cbc.ca]

    Better to have to change once and get it over with than replay the same drama every decade when someone wants to avoid problems like having hundreds of thousands of people driving huge vans and SUVs to work with no passengers. By the way, why is gas so much more expensive in other countries when we seem to waste it? From time to time I hear about equivalent prices of over $10/gallon.
  • by duncf ( 628065 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @01:01AM (#13842492)
    Anyone else find it a bit unusual that "Standard Time" will now only be observed for 3 months of the year, while "Daylight Savings Time" will be observed for 9 months?

    Maybe they should change the names, so we have "Standard Time" in the summer... and "Night Savings Time" in the winter?

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