EU Accepts Microsoft's Browser Choice Promise 336
itwbennett writes "Hurrah! The European Commission's antitrust investigation of Microsoft's position in the browser market is over. The EC has accepted Microsoft's commitment to offer users of 'Windows XP, Windows Vista and Windows 7 a choice screen through which they can pick the browsers they want to install on their PC,' writes Peter Sayer in an article on ITworld. 'The screen will be offered to users in the European Union and some neighboring countries for the next five years via the Windows Update mechanism. In addition, PC manufacturers will be allowed to ship computers with competing Web browsers, as well as or instead of Internet Explorer.'"
Hurray! (Score:5, Funny)
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I don’t get these comments about IE required for corporate intranet. I’ve never seen something like that.
Also: You are free to allow another company to buy your services, or just sell right to end-users.
Re:Hurray! (Score:4, Informative)
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At the very least, most security DVR systems I've used or seen require an Active-X control to be used to view the cameras, which then requires IE.
Re:Hurray! (Score:5, Informative)
You haven't been working much in a corporate environment, have you?
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I would like to see a context-sensitive use of URL:s so that some URL:s starts IE others Firefox and yet others Opera.
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Yep. I've never had a choice but to use IE on my windows machines. Nope, never. That firefox installer I have on a usb key, with the '.exe'? Yeah, that certainly couldn't be for windows...
Preventing MS from telling OEMs that they can't install other browsers is reasonable - MS shouldn't be able to tell them that, but to make it so that MS has put the effort to, what amounts to, advertise for their competators... Why not make Apple do that on their machines? Why not make dell offer the option of non-dell mot
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Why not make Apple do that on their machines?
Because Apple isn't a monopoly. It can't be an abuse of monopoly power if you aren't a monopoly in the first place.
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Which IE8 can't do, I think. Can you even install IE6 on Windows 7?
Re:Hurray! (Score:5, Insightful)
Which IE8 can't do, I think. Can you even install IE6 on Windows 7?
Only in VirtualXP mode. I believe Win7 is the best bet to get rid of most of the remaining IE6 users, because many corporation and governments that skipped the Vista upgrade cycle, and didn't want to update/certify intranet applications between cycles, will upgrade to Win7 (for many reasons). Let's hope they do it quickly. At least IE8 is a huge step in right direction.
Re:Hurray! (Score:5, Informative)
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IE8 is still a PITA. One example: The most useful feature in web design, PNGs with alpha channels, is still horribly broken in IE8 when used in all but the most trivial ways. You can't simply combine them with the alpha(opacity) filter (which is Microsoft's weird way of working around the lack of CSS opacity support). There are even some cases which IE7 got right and IE8 screws up. Even in the cases where it seemingly works (i.e., it doesn't turn the alpha-channel into GIF like 1-bit transparency), IE8 and
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Then stop using the alpha filter? No other browser has such a thing, unless you're talking about the opacity property?
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PNG alpha channel != Microsoft's alpha filter.
The parent was saying that mixing the alpha of PNGs together with Microsoft's alpha filter is a problem. I never use Microsoft's filters, so I never ran into that problem.
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To eliminate bias, the choice screen is presented as a neutral window, not a full Internet Explorer window as Microsoft initially proposed, and the browsers are presented in random, rather than alphabetical, order. The five most popular browsers -- initially Apple Safari, Google Chrome, Microsoft Internet Explorer, Mozilla Firefox and Opera -- will be displayed first, while users will be able to scroll the list to pick from seven others, initially AOL, Maxthon, K-Meleon, Flock, Avant Browser, Sleipnir and Slim Browser. The list will be reviewed every six months.
FTA (I know... nobody reads it)
Re:Hurray! (Score:5, Informative)
Windows XP (Score:2)
Even back at the time of Windows XP and Firefox 1.5, users were able to update their machines without IE by using Windizupdates.
Also, the system daemon running periodical downloads and updates in WinXP wasn't IE-dependent either (only the user interface).
Last but not least, the patch themselves are always available for download from MS' website, no matter what (that's how Windizupdate did obtain them).
The only IE-dependencies should be for a couple of applications requiring IE HTML-rendering libraries to re
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Thank you for your interest in obtaining updates from our site.
To use this site, you must be running Microsoft Internet Explorer 5 or later.
To upgrade to the latest version of the browser, go to the Internet Explorer Downloads website.
If you prefer to use a different web browser, you can obtain updates from the Microsoft Download Center or y
Yeah right. (Score:2, Informative)
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Good luck with that. IE is still a huge chunk of the shell and is shipped with XP weather you like it or not. (can't comment on win7/vista)
Which for the five millionth time, was not the issue here. And I seem to remember reading that the browser ballot will come as an update to XP too.
Re:Yeah right. (Score:5, Interesting)
There is nothing wrong with IE being included. The big difference is that OTHER programs can be included.
Buried in the story about the "ballot box" is the REAL story: "In addition, PC manufacturers will be allowed to ship computers with competing Web browsers, as well as or instead of Internet Explorer."
The real deal is that OEM manufactures were NOT ALLOWED TO SHIP A COMPETITOR TO IE. Not at all as long as they wanted to keep their volume discout pricing for Windows. This is the REAL antitrust settlement. Microsoft astroturfers have managed to bury this fact under so much fud about the "browser ballot box" that it is almost hidden even here at Slashdot. Disgusting.
Next up (Score:5, Funny)
Uberdork: "Now if only we could get them to ship Windows with a choice to use bash."
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Well, not bash, but they do ship their high-end editions of Vista/7 and most (all?) Server 2008/R2 editions with csh and ksh as part of Subsystem for UNIX-based Applications [wikipedia.org], an optional component. And, there's always Cygwin [wikipedia.org]. But really, PowerShell [wikipedia.org] is better than all of the above. Yes, I know I just pissed off a stack of people devoted to the inherent and forever eternal supremacy of the Unix command-line paradigm, and while I would have agreed with you until the advent of PoSH, I can't anymore. Those who h
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But really, PowerShell is better than all of the above.
Depends on whether you think that types are a good thing or a bad thing in shells. If you like types, then PowerShell is indeed MSNirvana(TM). Those of us who think that types are just an annoyance when it comes to sticking programs together to do cool stuff, well, we're just never going to be all that impressed with MS's offering here and will stick to other technologies.
Who's right? I'm definitely biased, but I rather like the POSIX way of doing things.
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PowerShell is very cool but in reality it's not just about the shell, it's also about the tools: typical linux install has a better selection and there are loads and load more available with just a quick "apt-cache search problem ... apt-get install new-tool"
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Real geeks prefer zsh! ^^
And ubergeeks prefer a shell for their Emacs VM. ;)
SUA (Score:2)
I know this was meant to be funny, but I figured I would point this out. Windows 7 with the subsystem for UNIX installed allows you to download and install the GNU utilities from Interop Systems' SUA community. Included are such things as the Apache server, Perl, openssh, gcc, and bash. I run bash on windows 7 and have found 0 problems with it. Comes in very handy.
YAY (Score:2, Insightful)
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Wait, what? That's exactly the point: preventing companies from abusing their de facto monopoly in one market to strangle other markets.
The computer manufacturers can't abuse it, because:
1) None has a dominant position in the market
2) The browser they sh
oh dear (Score:4, Insightful)
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You are doing it wrong. On the ignorant user you should just force it. Remove any IE shortcuts and they'll be fine.
I replaced IE with Firefox and Outlook with Thunderbird at my parents years ago. Told them 'the red icon is internet', 'the blue icon is email', and they are happy. The amount of sites that don't work in firefox are limited, and yes, I got lucky with the online banking. That all works in FF.
Now if they only learn that they can install java/flash updates without my help then they'll do fine.
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I can understand replacing IE with Firefox, but unless you are planning on using IMAP instead of MAPI I think Outlook is a far more capable product than Thunderbird. Free as in beer I understand, but if your parents already have a valid Outlook license why would you take it away?
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Thunderbird 3 made some big strides in usability, especially for IMAP (and Gmail specifically). If you haven't looked into it, it may be worth a try, though it sounds like you already have the situation settled...
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Outlook 2007 with Gmail [google.com]
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Who said that they had a valid license?
They are using POP3.
And thunderbird is a less target for viruses (which was a huge issue when I replaced it years ago)
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Outlook may be a good Exchange client, but calling it a capable e-mail client is stretching it...
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Exactly. I switched my mother to Gmail last year and forced a Firefox/Thunderbird transition earlier this year. After a couple of weeks of discomfort, she's happier now than she ever was before. No more spam, very few suspicious browser issues. My regular upkeep for her has been reduced to double-checking her Windows updates and upgrading/reinstalling antivirus software once a year.
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The average user doesn't care. At all. I replaced my mother's computer with a Mac Mini:
Mom: "Where's the Internet? The blue e?"
Me: "Click on the compass instead."
One browser is as secure as any other to her...no matter what she does she still gets fake phishing e-mails that scare her. And to her they all have identical features because Yahoo and Facebook look and work exactly the same. The difference to her is - literally - which picture she clicks on to open it.
When people get that dialog they'll happ
Finally! (Score:2, Insightful)
(And all users that don't care or don't understand will pick something at random, from a list of up to 12 (!) different browsers, is going to make life interesting for developers again now that we finally were seeing IE6 starting to disappear
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This is great! Now all the users that really wanted a different browser finally will be able to get one!
(And all users that don't care or don't understand will pick something at random, from a list of up to 12 (!) different browsers, is going to make life interesting for developers again now that we finally were seeing IE6 starting to disappear :)
Ah, yes. Now instead of needing to realistically support 3 major browsers, web developers will need to make sure they completely support 12 (!) browsers. The dis
Hurrah? (Score:2, Insightful)
This is yet another instance of the state violating our rights. "Boo", not "hurrah".
Not that I'm a huge fan of Microsoft. Financially it's not like it's going to hurt them or anything (I don't think?). But Windows is Microsoft's OS. Why should anyone have the right to force them to be "fair" and let users decide which browser to install? What's next... should we start forcing Microsoft to include Emacs, Vim, Notepad++, and Notepad2 because it's "unfair" that Notepad is included with such a popular OS?
You do
Re:Hurrah? (Score:4, Insightful)
When governments are not a huge customer of Microsoft, there might be some ground to complain about them being subject to anti-trust laws.
For the moment, "Microsoft tax" is far too literal. And your comment far too close to the usual silliness of reducing regulations on government-supported monopolies...
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This does not compute. You could say that the government, as a result of these cases, shouldn't sponsor Microsoft until they're a proper law-abiding company, but if you did that for all companies that run into a lawsuit here and there, you wouldn't be able to use almost any products in government.
Notice that I said after the fact, not before. The government may very well use Ford vehicles for all their transit needs and then end up suing Ford because of some other corporate failure like tax evasion. The
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Noone is forcing Microsoft to do anything, but if they want to be a part of the EU market they will have to abide by its laws.
So your answer to someone saying "The government is violating our rights" is to say "They make the rules, leave if you don't like it."
Wow. Governments just love people like you.
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The OP's answer to someone saying "Microsoft is violating our rights" was to say "they make the rules, leave if you don't like it" as well, so in that context at least the GP's argument is valid.
Integration means it is still there (Score:2, Interesting)
Since Internet Explorer is integrated into the OS, does this mean they changed the OS significantly or just removed the interface? If you just get rid of the icon and/or executable for IE, the operating system would still use the underlying functionality of IE for Internet access so some exploits would still exist and would require continued patching. This change does protect the user on behavior abuses involving the user when the browser is in use but not other Windows features using the underlying functio
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isn't removing IE like removing a factory stereo CD deck that also does the GPS navigation and diagnostic interface
No, it's not. IE isn't awesome like that.
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In Windows 7 IE can be "removed" via the Program Features control panel, but all that does is remove IExplore.exe (which is little more than a loader stub), removes the icons, and unregisters the HTTP shell protocol handlers. IE actually remains and can be embedded by applications (such as the desktop shell).
The previously proposed IEless Windows 7e, also "removes" IE in the same way but does not offer the option to re-enable IE. On both Windows 7 and Windows 7e dropping the IExplore.exe file in to the Inte
Honda to sell Accord's with Toyota engines... (Score:2, Interesting)
I hate IE as much as the next guy, and have no love for MS in general, but I don't see what the big deal is? Why wouldn't they integrate their own browser with their own operating system? They don't even charge for IE, so how can it be a monopoly issue? I must be missing something. Are they going to have include the option of installing crimson editor instead of notepad? How about BB4Win instead of explorer.exe? They don't stop you from installing other browsers, so who cares? Grandma's stuck with IE becau
I once thought as you... (Score:2)
then someone asked me to imagine a Honda with a GM V8....
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It's not only the clueless users: even if you're using another browser, you're still be screwed by IE's dominant position. See how much the web has evolved now that other browsers market share have began to grow, and how IE had to evolve.
Depends on the description... (Score:5, Funny)
Welcome to Windows!
Looks like you need to install a browser. Would you like:
A) Internet Explorer, the latest and most secure browser from Microsoft
B) Firefox, a browser made by terrorists that want access to your computer.
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You must install one of:
A) Microsoft Internet Explorer 11 *
C) Mozilla Firefox 3
And let the users form their own uninformed opinions of which one comes with the newest, shiniest internet.
And of course, if they avoid the phrase "which web browser", a lot of users will think they're being asked to choose between the internet and something they've never heard of (these are the ones who successfully got through XP's network setup wizard by clic
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Are people really that stupid though? I mean, I was forward another chain email this morning about a virus that had been confirmed by Lord Norton himself, but I don't think these people would fall foul to a crazy, made-up numbering system.
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You are buying a new computer, please choose:
A) Windows 7
B) Mac OSX 10.6
C) Ubuntu 10.04
D) OpenSUSE 11.2
E) Fedora 12
Look who's winning now.
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* Remember, they are currently working on incrementing their version number as fast as they think they can get away with.
Really?
OTOH
From where I see it the release schedule of Firefox is incrementing the version number far more frequently. And besides, who cares? There's some amazing 0.99 version software and some amazing 10.5 version software. Don't h
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That's just about right, but you forgot another point.....
The IE choice is a large, attractive button with the word 'Yes' on it. The Firefox choice is a hyperlink in x-small size, off to the side, starting with, "No thanks. I'll try the other one".
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Unlike murder, anti-competetive isn't a problem as long as no one complains.
Re:past behaviour (Score:5, Informative)
Anti-competitive behaviour is not like murder. That's an unfair comparison.
MS was fined 1.3 billion for past behaviour. This promise is needed for them not to get future fines:
http://slashdot.org/yro/08/02/27/1152208.shtml?tid=98
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Re:past behaviour (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft did more than just supply a browser for their own OS. They forbade OEMS from installing any other browser. They programmed it into the system so that end users couldn't easily remove it. They did everything they could to KILL competing browsers. In short they used their OS monopoly to force a browser monopoly and that was and is illegal. Now attempts are being made to rebuild competition in the browser field.
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Last I heard Apple weren't a convicted monopolist.
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THAT'S the difference between Apple and MS. Apple does not. They have, what 8%? That is not a monopoly. Therefore, it is an inane comparison to make. Microsoft is severly limited by what they can and can't do because they are so large and powerful, NOT because of the morals of the issue.
Just because you don't like Apple and t
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And iTunes sells unprotected AAC files, which play on a lot of devices, from Microsoft Zune to Nintendo DSi.
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Safari has under 4% marketshare.
Good luck proving a monopoly with that fact.
It's not like Safari has been around for many years. It's not like Apple have a monopoly in the operating system market that they're using to gain marketshare in the browser market.
Seriously, you should research the original anti-trust case to see what all the fuss was about. Microsoft uses their monopoly power to subsidise functionality in a different business area in order to gain control and be anti-competitive. They came within a bush of being split up.
Safari has the vast majority of the mobile browser market share in the United States. And unlike MS, whose crime was bundling a browser with its platform, Apple won't even let competitors offer an alternative browser on the iPhone/iPod Touch.
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If Windows only ran on MS-built/branded hardware, they wouldn't have gotten into trouble.
But Windows runs on generic hardware created by other companies and MS used their OS monopoly to force OEMs to do things their way. That was what got MS into trouble.
Apple is not forcing any other company to do things their way in order to sell their own products.
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Really? From: http://www.thestandard.com/news/2009/02/19/iphone-sales-slump-q4-blackberry-surges [thestandard.com]
Where do you get them having the "vast majority" of the market?
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So Legally MS is gimped, and Apple walks away free? How is that fair? Oh right because we hate Microsoft.
No, because Microsoft has had a stranglehold on the desktop computer industry for years. When you are a monopoly, the same rules do not apply to your company as do to the rest of the industry in question.
Complaining about Apple controlling the Apple computer market is like complaining Toyota controls the Toyota car market. Microsoft has controlled 90%+ of the worldwide desktop computer market for going o
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It has no control over what decisions dell,hp,sony etc make with regards to bundling
Sure, as long as it's bundled with Windows. To use another car analogy, that's rather reminiscent of Henry Ford's fabled "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black."
Microsoft's stranglehold on desktop computing was despite it not being a hardware company. It was a software company that had a bunch of hardware companies at its beck and call.
Re:Will this "FAIR" decision will include Apple? (Score:4, Informative)
Apple is under no legal obligation to sell anything on their hardware, nor is any other hardware vendor. They are not powerful enough to trigger the laws Microsoft has triggered, and therefore do not have any limitations on what they can ship their computers with.
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Apple doesn't have a stranglehold on the desktop market. Microsoft did (or does) according to trials before this which have declared it a monopoly. Non-monopolies can act as unfairly as they want on the basis that consumers have a choice not to use them. Once declared a monopoly, you have to be more considerate of your consumers since they arguably have little or no choice to use your products.
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Apple controls the entire Apple computer market
That's like saying that Lamborghini controls the entire Lamborghini car market, and therefore has a monopoly - ignoring the fact that they have a tiny percentage of the overall car market.
Dear Fate, did I really just make a car analogy?
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Apple controls the entire Apple computer market...
Jackie Chan Fan (730745) controls the entire Jackie Chan Fan Slashdot comment posting market. I demand you post your Slashdot login credentials immediately!
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No, no, no. MS has a monopoly position in the desktop OS market, and therefore is legally bound by different rules. That is why they are not allowed to use that position of considerable power to muscle competitors out of other markets, such as those for web browsers.
Apple, while still a large company in their own right, have a tiny percentage of the desktop OS market, and so are not bound by such stringent rules.
The points are not legally valid, even if they seem like common sense (which is only because you
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Not really. What Apple have is a three product bundle: PC, OS and Browser. They don't have a monopoly in either markets, unlike Microsoft, so I fail to see how they are using one dominant position to leverage themselves in another market.
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Re:This is only fair under one condition (Score:4, Informative)
Seems to me if MS has to comply with this, Apple should be held to the same standard.
Apple is not in a monopoly position, MS is. Different rules apply when you are, specifically about abusing your monopoly power in one area (e.g. operating systems) to muscle your way into another (e.g. web browsers).
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This EU ruling came about a decade too late, but that doesn't m
OS X got curl, however... (Score:3, Interesting)
First of all, the engine of Safari is open source, portable. See it at http://webkit.org/ [webkit.org] . It is so platform neutral that Gnome camp, KDE Camp (Qt 4) and Apple's toughest smart phone competitor (Nokia) uses it.
Do you see anything like mshtml.org ? Please tell me if you see one. Even Apple is not a convicted monopoly, by offering their Webkit openly, for free to dozens (including competitors) and enabling even MS IE to use it, if they wish, the situation changes instantly.
Stop comparing Apple Safari to Wind
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Apple doesn't have a dominant position in neither the computer hardware or OS market, so no, they're not liable under Article 82 [wikipedia.org] of the EU Community Treaty .
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I've never installed a Mac OS, so I'm curious: are you given the option to chose your web browser on installation of a Mac OS?
Your view is poorly informed. There is no law that says you can't bundle an OS and a Web browser. You can, however, break a law by taking that action. For example, if I ship Firefox with my OS of choice but don't comply with the license, I'm committing copyright infringement. Does that mean the only fair thing is for all Linux distributions to be banned from shipping Firefox with their OS, even if they obey the law?
...this issue isn't about browser quality but rather about MS "forcing" users into using IE.
You're wrong. This is mostly about MS forcing IE onto OEMs by bundling it with the OS, press
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Done already (Score:2)
Open standards and the ability to cleanly replace applications is what is really needed.
For browsers, open standards have been already existing for ages and are called HTTP/HTML/XML/CSS/PNG/JPEG/etc. (The fact that the main target of today's story - IE - has never tried to follow them, has nothing to do with the fact that the standards do exist).
And this story is about Microsoft pledging to make it possible to cleanly replace their browsing application (Internet Explorer) with any other concurrent one (Firefox, Chrome, etc.).
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web stuff is just one thing, and has nothing to do with communicating with the OS.
Still don't get your point (Score:2)
Sorry, I'm still failing to see what you're ranting about.
A web browser has 2 ends which communicates with outside :
- the browser must communicate with the Web, and standards have existed for ages
- the browser must integrate with the OS, and Microsoft is making a pledge to make this possible to. That's what current story is about. With this, it should be possible, for example, to completely kick IE out of the installation and use a pure Firefox-only based installation.
(For exemple: Providing an official sol
Re:I demand choice in my car as well (Score:5, Insightful)
General Motors have a 90% share in car sales worldwide? I'm shocked and awed!
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