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China In the Habit of Copying and Redirecting US Sites?
Posted by
Zonk
on Sunday November 18, @04:42PM
from the not-the-way-you-play-the-game dept.
from the not-the-way-you-play-the-game dept.
Want to know why US web companies have trouble making it in China? gaz_hayes passed us a link to the blog commiepod, which suggests that successful US websites are targeted by 'Chinese government backed companies.' "These companies copy the site, deploy it on a .cn domain, and then DNS poison or forcefully lower the bandwidth the US site. Just a few weeks ago google.com and google.cn were DNS poisoned across the entire Chinese internet and were being redirected to their Chinese competitor Baidu. This probably explains Google's 3rd quarter market share in China." This is a fairly serious accusation; anyone else have first-hand experiences that would back this up?
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China In the Habit of Copying and Redirecting US Sites?
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Sheesh... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sheesh... (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Monday November 26, @06:13PM)
Oh, give me a break. This has nothing to do with being leery of the US and everything to do with wanting to undermine foreign businesses while promoting local ones. It's not like Google would be any less of a target if it was a British company....
Re:Sheesh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sheesh... (Score:4, Insightful)
Doing business with china regularly, it's just how they operate. to them its normal practice. if it's to their advantage they will do something, if it isn't they won't
Like getting senior execs of a certain, now defunct, british car manufacturer drunk and signing away the company without reading the small print (note they expect foreign companies to follow the rules) *** allegedly ***
More like just massive corruption, IMHO (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Monday June 21 2004, @04:25PM)
I.e., no need to assume that there's some government hand behind it, or some meaningful form of protest against the west. It can be simply that some guy running their DNS servers/proxies/great-firewall/whatever got a nice bribe to redirect the lookups to someone selling the same kind of product, or an importer, or really whoever was willing to pay.
The way the kleptocracy/corruption scenario goes is, basically, it doesn't matter how much you're paid, it only matters how much you can steal/embezzle/get-as-bribes. Whole hierarchies are formed where any job worth anything (in loot/bribes/whatever) is essentially either given to party leaders' relatives or auctioned to the highest bidder. And then it's considered pretty much normal and expected that you'd get your money back, and a nice profit, by stealing/embezzling/demanding-bribes/etc. Whatever works, really.
My favourite example of what corruption _can_ do, and incidentally also is (A) about China, and (B) nicely illustrates that there is no need for it to even be motivated by some higher ideals or nationalism, is the Battle of the Yalu River in 1894 [wikipedia.org].
Among various surrealism of it all, many shells used by the Chinese fleet were filled with sawdust or cement, because some enterprising souls in the navy had embezzled the funds for cordite and split the loot with the manufacturer. Or stuff as monumentally surrealistic as that a battleship was missing two main guns, which again had been stolen and sold on the black market. Yep, you've read that right: big f-ing guns off a battleship, simply dismantled and sold on the black market.
You also find such surrealistic stuff, as that the fleet's second in command -- no doubt, some fellow with either high placed relatives, or who bought the job fair and square -- deliberately didn't relay the order to deploy into battle formation. The formation where the big ships could fire at the Japanese was also the formation where the Japanese could fire at the ship he's on, and, you know, he wasn't going to do stupid stuff like risk his own life for his country. At any rate, someone felt protected enough to ignore a direct order, even if it cost the country a humiliating defeat.
That's the kind of thing that corruption can do. Someone didn't give a fuck about their country or about sticking it to the foreigners. They just cost their country a humiliating defeat, simply because, you know, there was something to steal or he had bribed someone powerful enough to ignore a direct order.
So, regardless of whether you wish to see a continuity of that in China or not, well, that's how far corruption can go.
And you don't even have to look one century back, the (ex)communist block provides a ton of more recent examples. And not even just the commies. Just about anywhere where some people were given enough unchecked power, some enterprising souls proceeded to sell their influence for cash. With similar results.
The more devastating result being that they invariably destroyed a whole country's culture in the process. The little guys were allowed to steal or get a bribe worth maybe 1$, so they wouldn't mind when the party leaders stole a million bucks in one fell swoop.
So now look at this particular incident, and you tell me if you really need some higher reason or motivation than bribe to explain it.
It's freakin' sad, that's what it is.
Corruption is not limited to Chinese nationals (Score:5, Informative)
(http://16888.net/)
Take for example a large NASDAQ listed company, that was under internal investigation last year. I can't name names, but this is second hand knowledge from someone I know involved as a customer to this company and questioned in the investigation. Here goes:
1. NASDAQ listed company founders and management write a huge option on their shares with a foreign bank. The shares are in lockup and due to be able to float in 6 months. The price that the bank pays, is based on a price they can sell (estimated) at the end of the lockup period in 6 months.
2. Investigation begins, because of revenues being booked through companies the auditors (and competitors) have never heard of. It comes to light in the investigation, that the revenues are actually the proceeds from the share option sale (management and founders), to drive up stock price before the end of the lockup period.
3. Underwriters, major investors (big names in US and Europe, can't say the names here) are all aware. Auditors are paid off. One board seat is changed. The truth is buried. The news never comes out because too many investors, banks would get burned.
4. Stock still flying to this day. Fact is the company is a great model, but a big part of the accelerated growth prior to lockup expiring was fraud. Investors, bankers, underwriters knew it. Corruption on a mass scale involving US and European banks and investors.
So, this is why I call China "the wild east". Things can go very backward fast and it is very hard to see the "real" picture in anything you do here.
That being said, there are companies, like GE, that do very well in China while staying for the most part very "clean". It is not impossible to succeed in China without being corrupt. But the stories of corruption I have heard involving foreigners number at least on par with those involving locals only.............its a human disease not a "communist" or "socialist" or even "democratic" problem.....its human.
Baidu part owned by Google, no? (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://jamesholden.net/)
Re:Baidu part owned by Google, no? (Score:4, Informative)
Google may have a part of Baidu, but MS had a piece of Apple in the late 90s or 2000s as well (part of a lawsuit agreement IIRC) yet nobody could realisitically accuse MS on whether or not they cared if their OS remain dominant or if they wouldn't mind ceding market to Apple.
Re:Voting and non-voting shares (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Baidu part owned by Google, no? (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://janneinosaka.blogspot.com/)
In all fairness, the US does the same both formally (no non-us controlling ownership of any US airline) and informally, as when the US congress stopped the buyout of port operator company. And before anybody starts squealing about "national security", neither has anything to do with it. The port operator is not in control of anything security related, and foreign airlines fly in US airspace all the time but just aren't allowed to go between two US destinations.
Re:Baidu part owned by Google, no? (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/)
Re:Baidu part owned by Google, no? (Score:5, Interesting)
Welcome to globalisation, America. It's a good thing, remember? Petty national interests, including your petty national interests, need to become a thing of the past. And the view that shipping is a strategic resource and communication is not is bizarre beyond belief, moreso in a democracy such as you supposedly inhabit.
Then, and if it ever came to that, I think that's ultimately why you have an army. Defending your own ports is certainly a better use for it than, say, overthrowing foreign governments because you think you can embarrass the French by showing the world that they are as moronically unethical in their arms sales as you are, when actually they aren't....
Yeah, yeah, it's a troll... but I am so tired of this doctrine that freedom of movement, freedom of trade, the rule of law, democracy, freedom of speech and the right to a good cup of coffee are to be the goals of the entire world, but only in so far as they inure solely to the benefit of the USA.
As far as I can tell from non-US, non-Chinese news sources, the Chinese are presently trying at least as hard as the US to put their house in order. Their priorities may be different from yours, but yours are different from theirs, right? When CNN is a better news source than the Daily Show, maybe we can talk about Chinese information policy. When American corporations stop bullying foreign governments, we can talk about how foreign governments should be nicer to American corporations.
...And to those many readers who are American and not insane, look, I apologise for frothing at the mouth. I know it's worse for you than it is for me.
Re:Baidu part owned by Google, no? (Score:4, Informative)
(Last Journal: Wednesday August 29, @03:43PM)
For a manufacturing company, you as a foreigner can own - and control - 100% of a company. For a technical/service firm, you can own 60%. For a trading company, you can own 40%. So it really depends upon what the type of company is.
China's also opened up so that foreigners can now outright own houses or apartments, something even Mexico doesn't allow...
Re:Baidu part owned by Google, no? (Score:5, Informative)
Chinese "capitalism" is still largely an illusion (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.codemonkeyramblings.com/)
Of course this would be a surprise to the morons who think that Fascism is just a dirty word you throw at someone you disagree with. Most people forget that Fascism was a movement with a clear-cut platform, that was a true hybrid of Socialism and Capitalism. It is "right-wing" in the sense that it is "to the right of Socialism and Communism." It is, in essence, where the "left and right" meet up on the spectrum. If you look at the Fascists' planks, you will see that they had many left-wing tendencies, such as seizing the war profits of the military industrial complex, heavy taxation of income, and strong government **control** of the means of production through counsels of industry and regulations.
Communism is utopian. It is built on 19th century pseudo-science, and it ought to be no more respectable to be a Communist than to be a Phrenologist.
I am not surprised at China doing this. It make perfect sense from the economic nationalism of Fascist policy.
Re:Chinese "capitalism" is still largely an illusi (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.geocities.com/tablizer | Last Journal: Saturday March 15 2003, @01:22PM)
All economic and political models are NOT true science anyhow. All economic and political models benefit different people in different ways and no math will tell you the "right" way unless you first prove that person X deserves more than person Y (or that there "should" be an imbalance in the first place). Plus, much of economic models depends on consumer psychology, which is also a fuzzy science. At best models may tell you how to maximize something based on assumptions, but those assumptions and the weights on them are usually subjective.
Re:Chinese "capitalism" is still largely an illusi (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://www.lib.ru/)
This is an imbalance that was counter to the proclaimed idea of equality, and it was very real in the USSR. In Stalin's time, for example, a professor could afford a personal chauffeured car, a maid or two, and the best living accommodation - this was when people were paid for their worth. After Stalin things changed: a scientist went hungry (130 R/mo) and an uneducated metal worker at a factory (400-500 R/mo) started buying cars, dachas and tourist trips. This was one of those things that doomed the USSR; I can't imagine a more stupid idea than to herd your best and brightest into the lowest class. Many of them escaped to Israel and the USA as soon as they could; it was simply insulting for them to remain, be paid a pittance, and see their skills wasted on picking up potatoes in the field with locals just sitting around, smoking and crudely joking about it.
Communism goes even beyond that; but enough to say that Communism is based on the concept of unlimited availability of all worldly goods, and on unlimited consumption of those as your needs dictate. We can see Communism practiced on board of Enterprise in Star Trek, for example. Crew members can replicate anything they want and build whatever they like; use Holodecks as much as they want; and they are careful enough to take only what they really need, and not more. This is currently impossible because of many reasons, with unlimited availability of everything as one quite obvious example, and with a need for a "new human" as another concept that has no basis in reality.
Communism (or socialism) works for ants, but humans are possessive animals, with urge to own everything and control everything. You can't build socialism with those humans. But at least the basic capitalism can channel those human urges to the greater good of the society; socialism and communism just pretend that those urges do not exist. Capitalism is simply socialism with a working method of enforcing the rules.
Re:Chinese "capitalism" is still largely an illusi (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://www.lib.ru/)
But of course you refer mostly to the modern situation, where F/OSS distribution model has certain likeness of Communism (from everyone according to his capabilities, to everyone according to his needs, and there is no Government.) I guess the p1rate scene also follows, including music, at least on the consumption side.
Re:Chinese "capitalism" is still largely an illusi (Score:5, Insightful)
'Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power.'
'All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state. '
Two descriptions of Fascism by Benito Mussolini which apply to today's China perfectly. Though as you rightly point out meaning of the word Fascist has been lost on those who nowadays use it merely as an insult. Those same people are those who usually cannot accept that China is the archetypal Fascist state, in my view even more Fascist than Italy ever was in the 20s.
Re:Chinese "capitalism" is still largely an illusi (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://www.mightyware.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday November 08, @10:18PM)
No, it doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination. All China has proved that some organized method of industrialization proves an increase in the standard of living and wealth of a nation. Really, prior to the mid 1980s, China was so screwed up that just about means of exporting goods to the USA would improve them.
Seriously... this sort of myth was really born of the "Hitler Miracle", about, how the Nazi regime supposedly turned the German economy around in the midst of the Great Depression. Sure, Nazi propaganda would have us believe the in the midth of Hitler's German economic juggernaut, but the truth is, if you look at the statistics - EVEN THE BRITISH WERE OUT PRODUCING THE GERMANS. I won't belabor the point of American production, because the Americans had population and other advantages over Germany. Instead, let's look at the British, whom had less population, less natural resources, and still managed to produce more aircraft and more warships than the Germans, ultimately cutting Germany off from the sea and then taking Germany out of the air.
Essentially, all Germany could do was build a bunch of U-Boats that were just facelift improvements from World War I designs (the "modern" U-Boat came way too late to make a difference). Germany built two primary battleships - Bizmarck and Tirpitz. By contrast, the British built 5 battleships of the KGV class, more than a few aircraft carriers, and plenty of not only fighters, but also four engine heavy bombers. Germany could never build 4 engine bombers in number, becuase despite having an entire continent at her disposal, the Germans always had engine shortages...
And, why was that?
It's because fascism is a crooked and corrupt institution, and crooked institutions are not efficient. Tales of Nazi looting of other countries abound, but there was massive disorganization, massive crime... really, just imagine a bunch of thugs in a command economy, telling corporate bosses what to produce for war armaments... eventually, the whole thing would collapse... as indeed, it would have, under its own weight, had not the weight of a few million Allied soldiers and thousands of tons of Allied bombs not helped it along.
And that's ultimately what's going to happen with China. Already, rumours abound about problems in the Chinese banking sector, there's inflation being swept under the rug, and there's all sorts of inefficiencies creeping in that are just swept under the rug.
Bottom line is, fascist regimes always produce good economic results, only because we believe them when they tell us that we do. At some point, freedom really -does- matter, and that will catch up to China.
Re:Chinese "capitalism" is still largely an illusi (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://www.mightyware.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday November 08, @10:18PM)
But that's NOT TRUE at all. If it were true anywhere, it would be only true in the case of tanks, where the contractors were heavy machine makers and so treated each tank as a hand crafted thing. But even then, the Russian T-34 was a far better tank than the Panzers Germany entered the war with.
Beyond that, Germany sacrificed a lot for expediency. The entire U-Boat war was a concession to not build the best. The famed type XXI U-Boat, which could have been a game changer, was kept on the drawing boards to build the earlier designs. Germany cancelled construction of potential aircraft carriers, never built additional battleships... her whole naval strategy was to fight a sort of a guerilla war.
German infantry, for example, went to battle with a bolt action rifle, whereas her Yankee counterparts had the superior M1 Garand. And, you say, the "best"... German logistics trains relied in large part on steam locomotive engine and horse drawn transportation. Last time I checked, a truck was better than horse. The careful researcher will also note that the USA, incidentally, developed steam locomotives that significantly outperformed their German counterparts.
And have a look at aircraft, again.... the BF-109 and Spitfire were fairly close aircraft going into the war and throughout the Battle of Britain, but, again, the Germans had no equivalent to the Lancaster Bomber.
It goes on and on and on... Really, we have to look at the German Armed Forces for what they were. It had some modern tactics to help it early on, but, ultimately the whole thing was a mishmash of some misapplied high tech propaganda pieces to mask the overall inferiority of the whole thing. None of German's high tech weapons - the King Tiger, the V1 and V2, the ME-262, and the type XXI U-Boat, did a damned thing to change the outcome of the war, and her low tech weapons were simply not up to scratch.
Germany had an army that entered the war with tanks that weren't even as good as their French counterparts, a fighter aircraft that only matched the best the British could produce, had no real logistics support, a navy that lacked the capital ships to challenge its obvious rival, radar and signals intelligence nowhere near as advanced as her British counterparts. German communications was so bad that not only were all of their tactical communications read by the allies, the Germans didn't even realize that they were being read, despite obvious failures.
Re:Chinese "capitalism" is still largely an illusi (Score:4, Informative)
Karl Marx founded communism on materialist principles, not utopian ones. It doesn't mean all of his theories are correct, but they are not utopian. In fact he founded his school of thought in response to utopian socialist/communist ideologies of the time. I don't know how rational our system is with the president talking about God all the time and appealing to his base with his supposdely shared belief that some Jew 2000 years ago had magic powers.
Marxism is scientific insofar as it is consciously built on materialist, scientific notions. It is not scientific insofar as when it is incorrect. I would say even most educated Americans I know have no arguments against Marxian thought since they know nothing of it. They say "People will not act a certain way because human nature is..." or something like that which is never a scientific, rational argument. There are strong arguments against Marxian thought, but they are more along the lines of "Marx's economic system does not translate values to prices correctly". But most Americans, even educated ones, know too little about Marxism to make arguments against them.
Also, while Marx's socialism involves a proletariat-directed taking over of the economy by the state, there are other forms of socialism, like the anarcho-syndicalists who think economic decisions should be made by workers at their place of employment. Or people who advocate workers councils and so on. Many on the left question whether the USSR was what Marx intended, and Lenin himself talked about pulling away from socialism during the New Economic Policy. Only to Americans does socialism mean big government versus small government, in Europe it means who will control the "means of production".
fsck china (Score:4, Funny)
Already researched in 2002 ... (Score:5, Informative)
(http://foobsr.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Saturday March 26 2005, @05:24PM)
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/filtering/china/google-replacements/ [harvard.edu]
Last Updated: September 24, 2002
On this basis: "Google censors itself for China" — http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4645596.stm [bbc.co.uk] — Wednesday, 25 January 2006
Define ethics and business ethics within the context of a multi-billion dollar market. Do not be shy!
CC.
quite. (Score:5, Informative)
I used to work in China quite alot and found the only way I could get decent Internet access and get things done was to VPN back to the UK office and then surf from their gateway - the slight delay was quite alot better then the local service.
I got used to shitty performance, websites suddenly dying for no reason, 30 second delays on some sites and others almost instant.
As with most things Chinese, we may see this at dodgy behavior - to them it is a normal business practice. As I once stated on a thread about Chinese knockoffs the problem is not to "stop them doing it" but is rather "to make them understand they are doing something wrong in the first place".
Re:quite. (Score:5, Funny)
They use Comcast in China, too?!
its propoganda as you can tell from.... (Score:1, Troll)
(http://threeseas.net/ | Last Journal: Friday January 18 2002, @01:44PM)
South Africa (Score:3, Interesting)
Happens in Thailand too.. (Score:1, Offtopic)
They do worse things (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://www.karastathis.org/ | Last Journal: Thursday November 22, @10:20PM)
They actually do worse things, like torturing Tibetan nuns, and you worry whether you can access your favourite search engine in China?
Re:They do worse things (Score:5, Funny)
Re:They do worse things (Score:5, Insightful)
Native Americans? African Americans?
Every empire has to crush a few people to establish itself. Enough of the double standards already.
Re:They do worse things (Score:4, Interesting)
Furthermore, neither the United States nor China qualify as Empires in the classical sense. I really wish people who don't understand the term would just stop using it. America will never be an empire: we're too far past our prime for that and in any event we no longer have an industrial base capable of supporting the requisite war machine. Perhaps you don't realize how far the U.S. has cut its military since the Cold War days. And even if we still had that capability, the American people would never stand for it. We're pretty pissed off about Iraq, as it happens.
You know, a lot of people around the world are completely confused about that, because pretty much every other nation in history that has had such a relatively massive military has done so for the express purpose of acquiring territory. China now
Look, the Romans had an Empire, a real one (join us or die.) So did the British. So did the Russians. So did a lot of other countries over the centuries. When America or China starts moving some heavy military equipment and lots of personnel around, annexing other countries by main strength, killing anyone who opposes them and forcibly making them part of some "North American Empire" or a "People's Empire of China" I'll agree with you. And no, I don't count the occupation of Iraq as being anything similar, in spite of any ambitions Mr. Bush might have. That was just stupid.
Re:They do worse things (Score:5, Insightful)
My stuff got copied (Score:5, Informative)
Re:My stuff got copied (Score:5, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Saturday November 03, @09:51AM)
In the Chinese net culture, full-text being copied and pasted is a compliment, showing popularity of the work. You always find the work of popular online novelists "mirrored" on multiple websites. People usually acknowledge the author but does not always provide a URL reference. Plagiarism, or more specifically, defrauding the reader of authorship of the work, usually isn't the motivation.
This copy and paste culture can be traced to two historical reasons: (1) before printing press was invented, literature was only distributed by unregulated hand-copying. This is what student used to do in school. By the time you finished school, you would have copied a number of literature works by hand. And (2), private, unregulated hand-copying is the only way literature can survive over several oppressive emperors.
The former practice can still be seen prevalent in many CJK education system nowadays, where students are asked to manually copy some text on a regular basis as a part of the learning process. The latter reason still applies today as well; you'd see full-text of an article posted on an online BBS forum only to be taken down later by the authority, and someone posts the full-text again on another BBS forum.
In addition, copyright and authorship are separate issues. Interestingly, the British first invented copyright in order to allow the royalty to regulate printing of books (i.e. for censorship). Copyright granted the print shop a license to print a work. Without a license it would be illegal. Copyright was not invented to protect authorship.
In conclusion, it is not that the Chinese does not respect authorship. Copyright is simply unsuitable under the historical and cultural context. This seems to chime with the notion that real man upload his code on FTP and let everyone else mirror it, as said by some Linus dude.
Welcome to the electronic world (Score:1)
Were the Chinese up to no good? Possibly - but who can blame them - the internet is a incredibly easy place to play dirty tricks and have absolutely no repercussions. In the world of international dirty tricks there is very little that you could normally do to cause trouble that didn't involve significant risks on the world stage (espionage, corporate theft, political interference). The internet is one vast playground which is completely risk free. Do what you like, and if anyone complains just say it wasn't us. The Russians did it a couple of months ago against Estonia.
The people we elect to represent us and our interests should have been working to create a world wide communication network that could not be corrupted or used against us, not taking dirty money to allow corporations to attempt to paint a mum who uploaded a short clip of her son dancing to a song as being a shoplifting thief.
And yet.. (Score:1)
(http://10.0.0.1/)
I thought we (the US) weren't friends with "Commies."
sigh.
Re:And yet.. (Score:5, Insightful)
You really don't understand globalization, do you?
The Made in China "crap" is:
a) probably made by a US owned Chinese company or a Chinese company that bought technology/equipment from US firms, or licensed from a US company that gets a cut of the profits.
b) made for a lot less than any other country could ever DREAM of to produce it
The best bit is - China is only STARTING to become industrialized. They (along with India) have the potential to dominate the entire world economically. Sure, as an American you can "boycott" China. But Europe won't. Russian won't. The third world (which is starving for cheaper goods) won't. The only thing you will be doing is digging your own grave.
Globalization brings countries together. How can you go to war with a country that sells you the products you need, and buys the technology you produce, and imports raw materials from you, and exports engineers to you, etc etc etc.
Oh wait, war is about politics, and politicians are rarely rational. Sure, go ahead and call for a boycott then. Pardon me if I snicker when you shoot yourself in the foot.
Oh, and I'm Canadian, not Chinese. Not a drop of oriental blood.
Donald Trump says China rigs the rules (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://www.geocities.com/tablizer | Last Journal: Saturday March 15 2003, @01:22PM)
Excerpt:
Re:Donald Trump says China rigs the rules (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, China can become a superpower perhaps. If they are smart, they won't bother with a huge military buildup a-la the Cold War because that's a true waste of money, and there is nothing to gain from it. Like the US, they don't really want to rock the boat *too* much, because uncertainty is just as bad for them as it is for us - after all you can't really do a good job of controlling your economy if you can't reasonably predict what is going to happen in the next few years.
The only 'danger' there is is that China will truly have to be dealt with as an equal and respected as a technological force - eventually. That's not a bad thing, it can only help all of us to have another set of bright people building stuff.
Re:Donald Trump says China rigs the rules (Score:5, Insightful)
You have to be joking. Aside from Tibet, how many countries has China invaded in the last 50 years? The US has thrown it's weight around enormously more than China, right from installing Dictators (e.g. Shah of Iran) to direct invasions and much of this has been about securing access to resources and markets. The US even engineered the overthrow of the Guatemalan government just so that United Fruits could avoid paying taxes. China's brutality is mostly internal, in contrast to the US which is free internally but brutal externally.
The EU is not throwing it's weight around on a US level, but there are a few nasty examples. Britain was of course involved in the installation of the Shah of Iran (to secure access to the oil) but France has been waging a secret war in the mineral-rich Central African Republic for decades. Right now they have "peace keeping" troops there, but they used to control it directly and basically used the population as slave labour.
I'm sure that if/when China starts overthrowing governments all over the Middle East and in South America, we kill kick up a huge fuss and be on the brink of World War 3, but western countries have been doing this sort of thing for the last 50 years or more. We don't complain about it too much because we are rarely on the receiving end of all the violence but if we were, we would probably be just as angry as people like Chavez and Ortega.
I don't understand (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I don't understand (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.sfu.ca/~rdickie)
Firsthand experience? (Score:2)
(http://www.ev4.org/)
Poisoning DNS (Score:3, Funny)
I think the words you're looking for are (Score:2)
(http://yro.slashdot.org/~drDugan/)
True! True! (Score:2, Interesting)
probs? (Score:1)
Well ... actually this would make sense for China (Score:2)
Think about what it would mean if they let Google expand as it wants. All those advertising revenues ... gone. Control over which websites appear in searches (and at what level) and which don't ... gone. A great way for their security forces to keep tabs on what searches are made ... gone. A natural niche for their home-grown search engine company ... gone.
If the same thing were happening to the US, we would be seeing plenty of legislative initiatives that would somewhere feature the magic words "national security".
China has a more practical approach to addressing the issue that doesn't involve legislative initiatives, but the ethics and the net effect seem to be quite comparable.
What was that complaint again?
Conspiracy theory? (Score:1)
How cn government manipulate the DNS... (Score:3, Informative)
2. youtube is redirected to 6 rooms [6.cn], another idea copycat.
We need net neutrality in the US (Score:2)
Surprise (Score:2)
(http://slashdot.org/)
vnet.cn (Score:4, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Wednesday August 22 2001, @01:58PM)
Doesn't happen to me (Score:1)
yes (Score:1)
(http://www.hystericalraisins.net/)
Indeed.
After the Google->Baidu situation, I got fed up and started pumping all my DNS usage through tor-dns-proxy.
It's clear that no one here cares about the facts (Score:1)
Easier idea... (Score:2)
(Last Journal: Wednesday November 28, @12:01PM)
China is an independent country (Score:2)
Catch 22: They have the right do anything that we are unable to prevent them from doing.
Some real info (Score:5, Informative)
(http://16888.net/)
1. Foreign companies can own 100% of China enterprises (in some industries), and this is called a WOFE (Wholly Owned Foreign Enterprise)
2. For any company to operate a web site in China, they need an ICP (Internet Content Provider) license.
3. Only domestic PRC entities (citizens), can get an ICP license (any foreign ownership and ICP license cannot be issued)
4. There are ways around #2+#3, through a legal loophole which is quite simply, a) the foreign company has their in country manager or other domestic person setup a 100% domestic owned PRC company to get the ICP license. b) the foreign company has a proxy agreement and share pledge with the "official" shareholder(s) of that PRC domestic company which are side contracts giving control and management of the domestic company to the foreign owned (WOFE) of the foreign investors. c) The WOFE also has a contract with the PRC company to extract all revenue out through a "technical services and management agreements". d) The WOFE then is able to book all the revenue from the company, making it a synthetic subsidiary and thus getting around all the laws forbidding foreign investment in the PRC company. (interesting note, this structure was designed in the 70's to get around foreign investment limitations in petrochemical industries, and is now used by all the major internet and game companies listed abroad, ie: tom.com, sina.com, snda.com, Google, Yahoo etc.)
5. The telcos here (China Netcom and China Telecom) often seem to re-direct traffic as the post claims. I have seen google.com traffic redirected for an entire weekend to 114.cn, which is China Telecom's lame search engine! Baidu.com redirect I see much less often. There are also many others for instance ALL traffic was redirecting to Yahoo.cn on my cable broadband connection from my house yesterday, no idea why Yahoo.cn, but it was.
6. A lot of traffic to the China internet portal kings is fake, by fake think how gold farming in MMOGs works, people playing for gold and getting paid 0.50 cents an hour to play in China. I have heard *rumors* from insider friends saying that many portals pay people the equivalent to click on links all day.....think market cap and ad revenue reporting.....it would not surprise me in the least but I can't say I have seen it personally.
First Hand (Score:4, Funny)
All's fair (Score:1)
Kinda old news... (Score:2)
The company I work for had that happen almost two year ago. We noticed a little funny traffic, and traced it back to a Chinese outfit which had a similar domain name, and acted as a proxy: When you went to their site, they would parse the request, get the real info from our page, fix the links, and send it back to the user. We didn't figure they wanted to actually follow through on the order fulfilment, but rather just wanted to get credit cards as people tried to check out.
A lot of folks will tell you that trying to block based on geo isn't very productive, but I can tell you from experience that every
Redirected (Score:1)
That's what you get for doing business in China (Score:1)
Well, I guess some companies are run by morons because no matter how bleeding heart liberal you are, you should remember Tiananmen Square. That really did happen and it wasn't in some fantasy either, real people died and were imprisoned over a peaceful demonstration asking for (what most of the free world sees as) basic human rights.
Just a thought.
iLike had this issue... (Score:2)
(http://www.popcornfilms.com/)
This happened to Taiwan websites (blogs) too (Score:1)
foul play (Score:1)
(Last Journal: Sunday November 04, @03:38AM)
Why? (Score:2)
American companies have a hard time in China because they are not Chinese - it's as simple as that, really. Perhaps you are not aware, but European companies have always had a hard time getting in to the American market, just for comparison. Or the japanese market, the Malaysian market etc. There is nothing strange in it, it is a different culture, different laws, and it is far away. People will always be a bit sceptical about foreigners and foreign companies - add to that the fact that America does not have the best reputation in the world; certainly not in China.
Apart from that, the Chinese have a huge confidence in themselves nowadays, and you can see why: their economy is rocketing and they feel they have good reason to believe they will soon be stronger than the Americans anyway. When America was booming, a while back, it was the same - Americans wanted American goods, like everybody else in the world, and foreign companies were met with a 'Yeah, come and take US on' from American companies. It was very hard to get into America, and it has nothing to do with America 'poisoning' foreign companies in any way.
The big 'why' is 'why the hell do Americans believe in this kind of stupid conspiracy theory?' - I think it is because it is hard to face up to the fact that America is falling back in the competition. But that is the wrong way - like children saying 'he was cheating' when they lose a game. If that is the best America can do, then China deserves to win.
China seems to have blocked slashdot (Score:2)
Strange port scan (Score:2)
(http://www.madopal.com/)
Well, I'm a bit late to this thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02 anyway. About a week ago, I saw an interesting line in my /var/log/secure:
Nov 14 14:13:46 [xxxxxx] sshd[21321]: Bad protocol version identification 'GET http://www.google.com/ [google.com] HTTP/1.0' from 69.182.111.5
I'm running ssh on a nonstandard port, so it's even weirder. As I began to check on that IP address, things got stranger still. Running nmap showed a bunch of ports open: ftp, http, dns, pop3, and some Microsoft specific stuff. I tried to log into ftp, and got the following message:
Connected to 69.182.111.5 (69.182.111.5).
220- Web2.hamiltonjones.com WAR-FTPD 1.67-05 Ready
220 Please enter your user name.
So, a whois on hamiltonjones.com said that there were 2 DNS's:
Domain servers in listed order:
WEB1.HAMILTONJONES.COM 69.57.156.24
WEB2.HAMILTONJONES.COM 69.182.111.5
Apparently it's one of Hamilton Jones' DNS. However, it seemed weird to me that the web port would be open for it. When I hit the IP with a browser, I got an error trying to redirect to f7smq058.superoureland.org. A whois for superoureland.org shows Chinese contact info, and a Google on the domain shows the domain is in some RBL's. Since it's running some Microsoft stuff that showed up from my nmap scan, I'm guessing it's been root'ed.
At the time, I posted around, and someone on a board speculated that it might be some Chinese using that DNS as a way to tunnel around the Great Firewall (TM). Now, after reading this info, I'm not so sure.
Re:THIS IS CHINA! (Score:2)
Brett
Re:THIS IS CHINA! (Score:2)
We heard that before from Japan in the '80s, the Soviets in the '60s, the Nazis in the 40's and so on. The problem is that centrally managed economies can grow fast for a while, but then they hit a wall because of the market inefficiencies that these practices inevitably introduce.
Re:FIRST TROUT! (Score:4, Interesting)
I can't imagine China would subvert such a large percentage of searches - that would be *really bad* for business (and public) relations with the west - also there would be a lot more information out there if this was actually happening on such a large scale.
Re:FIRST TROUT! (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://www.billrocks.org/)
This one is for China [citw2008.com]
This one is for the rest of us [wikipedia.org]
I support China's inclusion into the global economy. It helps raise many millions of people out of poverty, while providing solid incentives to move forward politically. However, let's not fool ourselves... China has a long way to go.
Re:China (Score:2)
Re:China (Score:1)
Do what is needed (Score:2)
(http://www.building26.org/)
Mod parent up.
Re:Fuck china (Score:1)
(http://www.sydseale.com/)