Peter Jackson Unlikely To Direct a Hobbit Film

Petersko writes to mention a CNN article about an escalation between Peter Jackson and New Line that likely means we'll never see a Jackson-helmed "Hobbit" film. It already looked grim, but I'd say this is the nail in the coffin. From the article: "In an interview with the Sci Fi Channel news service Sci Fi Wire, [New Line co-chairman Bob] Shaye said Jackson will never make another movie for the studio and said the filmmaker just wants more money. 'I don't care about Peter Jackson anymore,' Shaye said. 'He wants to have another $100 million or $50 million, whatever he's suing us for. He doesn't want to sit down and talk about it. He thinks that we owe him something after we've paid him over a quarter of a billion dollars. ... Cheers, Peter.'"

might be fair

how much did THEY make from the films?

Re:might be fair

Irrelevant. What's fair is that he gets paid what was in the contract. Doesn't matter whether that's 250 million, 10 bucks or a billion. If he thinks that dodgy accounting practices are responsible for reducing his cut, he has every right to challenge the accounting.

Re:might be fair

But don't forget that profits from films and other forms of entertainment are often divided based on percentages. How can one be certain they're getting their contractually agreed-upon share without open and equal access to the financial numbers? Based on my reading of the various articles, that seems to be the core of the dispute. Peter Jackson's open letter specifically stated it's not primarily about the money... it's about fulfilling contractual obligations and receiving the (perfectly normal) right to have full access to the accounting information.

Re:might be fair

under which law did he sign the contract? US or Australian?

Contrary to popular opinion across the ditch, Australian law doesn't hold in NZ just yet.

well

He thinks that we owe him something after we've paid him over a quarter of a billion dollars. ...Z

With that kinda cash he can finance his own movies.

Please don't kill me...

Does it really matter? If they find a competant guy, who cares for him. He just has a more famous name, that's all.

this guy's full of it

'He wants to have another $100 million or $50 million, whatever he's suing us for. He doesn't want to sit down and talk about it. He thinks that we owe him something after we've paid him over a quarter of a billion dollars.

It would seem the disagreement comes over "creative accounting" practices over at New Line. It would also seem that Peter Jackson has already tried to "sit down and talk about it".

What's really sad is that Shaye is such typical Hollywood; he actually believes an ego-driven pissing contest is more important than creating good work, and paying artists what the contract specifies.

Re:this guy's full of it

Anyone who complains about Hollywood producers trying to make, and keep, all the money they can needs to wake up.

So your logic is, if someone has a history of acting like a selfish jerk, you should just let them get away with it, because "that's what they do"?

I think it's perfectly reasonable for Jackson to make a Hollywood picture, in the knowledge that some people at Hollywood are dishonest sharks. If he then calls them on being dishonest sharks, more power to him.

Just because they always do it, doesn't mean it's right, or that they should continue to get away with it.

Re:this guy's full of it

Here is Peters e-mail (posted here http://www.theonering.net/staticnews/1163993546.ht ml [theonering.net]):

I think it says it all.

Dear One Ringers,

As you know, there's been a lot of speculation about The Hobbit. We are often asked about when or if this film will ever be made. We have always responded that we would be very interested in making the film - if it were offered to us to make.

You may also be aware that Wingnut Films has bought a lawsuit against New Line, which resulted from an audit we undertook on part of the income of The Fellowship of the Ring. Our attitude with the lawsuit has always been that since it's largely based on differences of opinion about certain accounting practices, we would like an independent body - whether it be a judge, a jury, or a mediator, to look at the issues and make an unbiased ruling. We are happy to accept whatever that ruling is. In our minds, it's not much more complex than that and that's exactly why film contracts include right-to-audit clauses.

However, we have always said that we do not want to discuss The Hobbit with New Line until the lawsuit over New Line's accounting practices is resolved. This is simple common sense - you cannot be in a relationship with a film studio, making a complex, expensive movie and dealing with all the pressures and responsibilities that come with the job, while an unresolved lawsuit exists.

We have also said that we do not want to tie settlement of the lawsuit to making a film of The Hobbit. In other words, we would have to agree to make The Hobbit as a condition of New Line settling our lawsuit. In our minds this is not the right reason to make a film and if a film of The Hobbit went ahead on this basis, it would be doomed. Deciding to make a movie should come from the heart - it's not a matter of business convenience. When you agree to make a film, you're taking on a massive commitment and you need to be driven by an absolute passion to want to get the story on screen. It's that passion, and passion alone, that gives the movie its imagination and heart. To us it is not a cold-blooded business decision.

A couple of months ago there was a flurry of Hobbit news in the media. MGM, who own a portion of the film rights in The Hobbit, publicly stated they wanted to make the film with us. It was a little weird at the time because nobody from New Line had ever spoken to us about making a film of The Hobbit and the media had some fun with that. Within a week or two of those stories, our Manager Ken Kamins got a call from the co-president of New Line Cinema, Michael Lynne, who in essence told Ken that the way to settle the lawsuit was to get a commitment from us to make the Hobbit, because "that's how these things are done". Michael Lynne said we would stand to make much more money if we tied the lawsuit and the movie deal together and this may well be true, but it's still the worst reason in the world to agree to make a film.

Several years ago, Mark Ordesky told us that New Line have rights to make not just The Hobbit but a second "LOTR prequel", covering the events leading up to those depicted in LOTR. Since then, we've always assumed that we would be asked to make The Hobbit and possibly this second film, back to back, as we did the original movies. We assumed that our lawsuit with the studio would come to a natural conclusion and we would then be free to discuss our ideas with the studio, get excited and jump on board. We've assumed that we would possibly get started on development and design next year, whilst filming The Lovely Bones. We even had a meeting planned with MGM executives to talk through our schedule.

However last week, Mark Ordesky called Ken and told him that New Line would no longer be requiring our services on the Hobbit and the LOTR 'prequel'. This was a courtesy call to let us know that the studio was now actively looking to hire another filmmaker for both projects.

Ordes

Re:this guy's full of it

Yeah, its like "if you want the money we owe you, you're going to have to work for it... again"

I'd say...

I don't know what the terms of the contract were, but if Jackson's contract calls for him to be paid more, then I'd say he's completely justified in thinking they owe him something after they've paid him a quarter of a billion dollars. That's why contracts are negotiated - otherwise he could have taken his business elsewhere. They can't retroactively say "We paid you $250 million and that's an awful lot of money, don't be greedy" if they agreed to $300 million.

Re:I'd say...

His whole claim is that they defrauded him on millions based on merchandising and other subsidiary rights. If a contract is based on a percentage, and they ferried all these deals off to various companies that are *part* of New Line's enterprise, they pocket a pile of cash and he gets screwed, right? Right. The claim is more or less valid, no matter how greedy he seemed. 250 million? Pocket change!

Re:I'd say...

Man, when did ./ become such a hotbed of communist propaganda

Since you changed to the wrong directory.

Re:I'd say...

This is Soviet Russia.
Prepeare to be Dot-Slashed.





(Oh well, I had Karma to burn :p)

Re:I'd say...

It's common for movie studios to come up with fees that they charge themselves to make the bottom line whatever they want it to be. If they owe somebody a percentage of the bottom line, they are very good at making that number be as low as possible. The thing is that when you charge yourself a fee, you still get all the money. It's a ridiculous scam, and it seems to me like people in Hollywood are either too worried about the glamour, or are busy suing each other over it.

I don't know the specifics of this dispute, but I'd bet money that it boils down to "my contract says I get x% of this pool of money, and you are lying about the size of that pool of money".

Aroo?

I could be mistaken, but I was pretty sure that Peter Jackson is only suing to have an audit done, as his main allegation has always been that accounting practices on the previous LotR movies were a bit, er, shady.

Sure, he'll probably get some more money out of it (if he's right), but it sounds to me like New Line is attempting one hell of a mischaracterization...

Just give him the money

Why don't they just give him whatever he wants. It's not like they are going to lose money on another of those films.

Re:Just give him the money

Why don't they just give him whatever he wants. It's not like they are going to lose money on another of those films.

Because what he actually WANTS is to have an independent third party to look at their books and decide what is fair (he probably believes they owe him money, but he said he would be happy with whatever the auditors decide).

It is common industry practice to shuffle expenses around from one department to another, so that on paper, even a multi-billion-dollar movie never makes any profit, so the studios get away without paying any royalties. If they gave him what he wanted, these practices would be exposed for all to see. This is much more than a few hundred million from one blockbuster movie - it is about similar practices from every blockbuster movie ever made. No studio in their right minds would dare to have this kind of thing become publicly known (or worse, proven so that all the people they have defrauded out of royalties be able to sue them over it).

hmm

Dont newline cinema have a finite period of time in which they can do the hobbit before they lose the rights to it?

Give it a week

Who says Shaye will be there next week? Things could change in
an hour. An active lawsuit certainly affects business partners
but the studios board just needs to make the tiny conceptual
leap that another couple billion dollars is better than Shaye.

Sheesh, anyone believe ANYTHING said in H'wood? Give me a break.

Bob Shaye is a fool...

and if I was Chairman of his board he would be fired.

Nevermind how much Peter Jackson was paid - how much did he make for them ? Yes, I am sure he can be replaced - after all, movies of the quality and popularity of LOTR are so common.

Re:Bob Shaye is a fool...

Do you think if the result of an audit was that he was overpaid $50M, he'd happily and immediately return the money?

I think he would. I know quite a few people who have worked with him, and they all say he's a very honest, scrupulous person.

More to come

Ok, the story as I understand it now, or at least as far as it is reported in the various press releases.

NewLine has limited time left to produce the Hobbit, before the movie rights return back to another company. Peter Jackson is suing New Line because their own audit of Fellowship of the Ring came up with figures that didn't match what NewLine paid to them. Their contract has regulations for this , and since NewLine refuses give more insight into their accounting, they are left with a courtcase.

NewLine then tried to get Peter Jackson to drop the lawsuit by telling him "drop the lawsuit, and you can make the hobbit". This was refused by PJ in a public letter, who stated that he wouldn't want to invest time and efford into a new project while the courtcase is still unresolved.

NewLine can now make a Hobbit without PJ, or do nothing and see the rights to a valuable movie franchise revert to its previous owners within the not too far future.

Meanwhile, MGM holds the distribution rights for the Hobbit, and has already said on record that they would want Peter Jackson to direct the film.

(and as for whom owns what, Google the details)

Re:More to come

"Don't go see it, Peter Jackson didn't direct it." would be a common phrase if New Line did it. At least that's what I'd tell everyone that would listen.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Rings Geeks like us might hold that viewpoint, but the Average Joe who just goes to the movies to be entertained won't know or care who directs the movie (or movies, since it sounds like New Line has another movie planned to slot in between The Hobbit and LOTR).

Making gross (and I mean horrible) estimates, Rings Geeks might account for 10% of the movie-going audience. Even if every single one of them boycotts a non-PJ-made Hobbit, New Line would still do exceedingly well out of it.

Personally, I hope that everyone New Line approaches to direct The Hobbit tells them where to stick it, that the rights will revert to Tolkien Enterprises and MGM so that they get PJ to make it for them. Take that, New Line! :)

For anyone who's forgotten, it's not just Peter Jackson who questioned New Line's creative accounting over the Rings movies - In 2004 (I think) Tolkien Enterprises [wikipedia.org] also sued New Line for over $20 million in unpaid royalties for Fellowship of The Ring.

New line probably does own Jackson more...

The LOTR movies are in the lists of top grossing films. Adding up the numbers from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-gross ing_films [wikipedia.org] seem to indicate that ~3 Billion has been made. Assuming Jacking is getting a percentage of gross (if he was smart) would mean that 300 million would be ~10 % which sounds reasonable. Of course this doesn't include rentals and DVD purchases etc. which could easily be another billion. $0.02

Is this slashdot or is it Fox news?

Ok, I know this is slashdot and all that, but please. That article says it is not likely that Peter Jackson will make another movie with the film studio. It says nothing about him not doing a hobbit film for other studio, as is apparently favoured by some of the tolkien family.

So enough with the cheap selling news, ok?

Jackson's right

Movie studios do this kind of thing all the time. Frequently they give actors and directors "points on the back" which is supposed to mean a portion of "profit".

What the studios do is claim the film hasn't made any profit, and cite an enormous number of line items which cost the producers money.

What the studios have actually done is just shuffled money around: Spending in one place, and earning back somewhere else. Its an effort to avoid paying for those points.

There's a famous story of Forrest Gump which was smash hit, but supposedly never made any money because of creative financing. The studio got rich, and those with backend points never got a dime.

The audit Jackson wants to do would very likely trace those lost profits right back to the producers.

waa waaa

waa waa we already paid so much we shouldn't have to follow the law and pay what we agreed to. following the law is for other people not us.

so why sell the LOTR movies?

'Why would they want to have another $100 million or $50 million, whatever they are suing you tube, et al for. They don't want to sit down and talk about it. TWX thinks that the fans owe them something after we've paid them over FIVE billion dollars, helping TWX achieve a gross profit of 17 billion dollars. Cheers'

p.s. if then need a new director, try Robert Rodriguez. As wonderful as the panoramic were, the funky way the actors were shot, not to mention the random acting, was pitiful.

Good, give someone else a try

Slashdot karma be damned, but IMHO LOTR almost completely failed to capture that Tolkienesque feel that I get from reading the books.

As a Tolkien fan, it could have been far far worse, and it was still an epic movie-making acheivement. I enjoyed the films for what they were. Seeing a cave troll was neat and all, but that over-the-top style, blaring music, and constant cgi-on-steroids action missed the finer points of Tolkien's sense of history and especially language. For god's sake man, let's hear a riddle or two!

So I say let someone with a lighter touch try to capture the spirit of Tolkien on film for The Hobbit.

Yeah, me too.

At the risk of making a "me too" post - me too.

First off, we all know how corrupt the movie industry is, and I hope PJ nails those guys to the wall and gets his due. But that being said, I'd like to see someone else make The Hobbit. PJ made too many arbitrary changes to the story for me to truly enjoy his work. He's a brilliant director and makes lovely visuals, but shouldn't be doing the screenplays.

Re:Good, give someone else a try

Fine, you go and make the twenty-six three hour movies it would take to truly bring to life the Tolkien vision then ;)

People are making the mistake of comparing the books and films in a literal sense. The movies were never going to be able to do full justice to the vision, however I believe they are the only ones so far that have come within a mile of doing that.

Gollum

"They wants the precious for themselves, the stinking dirty thieving little Newline'ssss!"

Saul Zaentz has already said Peter will direct

Saul Zaentz, the producer that the Hobbit rights return to very soon, has already publicly announced that he could give a crap what New Line does, (he sued them for dough back in 2004...around the same time the cast sued them for dough) Peter Jackson will be directing the Hobbit when the rights return to him whether New Line tries to make a version on their own or not. Obviously this can't be guaranteed, but I don't think it would surprise anyone.

Peter Jackson only made $250 million from LOTR ?

If you ask me, New Line got a deal..

"quarter of a billion dollars" ha ha.. come on...

Fuck New Line

I've said it before, and will repeat it, despite being one of the biggest Tolkien fans out there, I will not go to see a Hobbit movie not done by Peter Jackson. Period.

MGM can fix this

New Line may have the production rights to The Hobbit, but MGM has the distribution rights. IT was MGM who approached New Line about doing the Hobbit movie(s), and MGM wants Jackson to direct. So does Saul Zaents.

IIRC, production rights revert back to Saul Zaents some time this year if New Line has not legitimately begun production.

Since MGM and New Line are partnering up to do the Hobbit (neither can do it alone, since the rights are split up), MGM could simply stall the process until New Line loses the production rights. Then MGM relicenses production from Zaents, asks Jackson to direct, and everyone is happy.

Except the fans (who may have to wait a while longer for a "proper" Hobbit film to get done), and Bob Shaye, who will miss out on the preciousss profitses from the Hobbit. He simply needs to STFU and allow the audits of the LOTR films to happen.

If Peter Jackson isn't making it.....

then please do not make this film. Enough said.

I think it's so funny...

He thinks that we owe him something after we've paid him over a quarter of a billion dollars

I like how the studio thinks the percentage that they agreed to pay him turned out to be "a lot" that they can reneg. And they keep throwing out this line about how much money he's made to kill people's sympathy for him. But, er, well, why should they get to keep the money? The fact is (at least from what I've read) is that they agreed to pay him on certain terms in the contract, and now they're whining because it was more successful than they expected. Which means they got more than they planned too. But the suits just don't like the idea of the grubby artist personally making so much.

Screw you NewLine. Go Peter.

And heck, I didn't even like the films that much.

Cheers :)

Reminds Me of Stan Lee and Marvel

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/30/60II/mai n527513.shtml [cbsnews.com]

Stan Lee had a contract for a percentage of the profits of the films and merchandise, but the company didn't want to pay him. He sued and was awarded a cut of the profits.

Not immediately relevant, but reminiscent.

Shaye sounds like he's covering somthing

Jackson just wants an audit of the payments for the second two movies. The studio wants to sit back and refuse. I sugget they are hiding something. Probably cooking the books.

No loss

After what he and his writers did to Two Towers and Return of the King, I think the material might be better served by someone else.

(Not that I'm holding out hopes of a Hollywood studio being able to find that person)

Errors of omission are to be expected with such a long work, but completely altering some of the major themes of the two works is unforgivable.

talk about spin

This is total spin and should have never been posted on slashdot, my god.

Here is a link [showbizdata.com] with a statement from the real owner of the Tolkien rights saying that Jackson will definitely do the Hobbit. The rights for the movies revert back to him sometime within the next year.

This Shaye guy can sit on it and spin himself, greedy fuck.

/feeling cynical tonight

an act of charity

You know if New Line gave $250 Million to a hobo as an act of charity then I think this numbat would have a point. But they didn't. They gave it to Wingnut films, a business that they had signed a contract with.

Without Peter there would be no money.

Piss on Bob Shaye
Without Peter there would be no money.

I won't watch The Hobbit in theaters unless Jackson makes the film.

Shaye wantes to rob the people of this and cover his tracks with shady accounting.
Somethings never change.

 

Jackson to LIKELY direct the Hobbit with LOTR cast

He just might not do it for New Line. When New Line's option for the Hobbit runs out and rights revert to Saul Zaentz another studio can pick it up and hire Jackson and the relevant members of the LOTR cast who support and want Jackson to direct, which would be a very smart business decision of any studio -- New Line doesn't seem to get that when it should be scaring them stupid.

Desparate Message to Peter Jackson!

Is Peter a Slashdotter? Is anybody who works with him a Slashdotter? Then please pass this on:

"Peter, Sorry you won't be doing another Hobbit movie, but Lord of the Rings would be pretty hard to top anyway. I won't be seeing the Hobbit movie if you're not directing it. This isn't a boycott threat. I'm just not going to see it, period. I don't care what Newline does, and neither will most of your fans.

Instead, walk across the hall and see your good friend and LOTR visual effects supervisor, Richard Taylor. He's been pushing the idea of doing a Live Action NEON GENESIS EVANGELION movie. This is every bit as deserving a franchise as Lord of the Rings. And because it's barely been tapped outside of Japan, it's got incredible potential. I can't stress that enough. This is one of the most phenomenal stories ever to be told. Evangelion may be underground in the West, but it has a huge cult following; Robin Williams even voiced the promo for the live action because he's a huge Evangelion fan.

Richard has been working on this for several years. WETA have done conceptual art. AD who own the rights backed off making it as an Americanized version. This has huge potential. Talk to Richard. He can give you the animated Boxset. Why do Halo or remakes of old movies, when you can do this?

Good luck! Talk to Richard and cllick here to learn more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelion [wikipedia.org]

Boycott New Line

We should express our displeasure with this and that it will not fly: http://www.dpsinfo.com/boycottnewline [dpsinfo.com]

Gotta love studios

When Jackson wants to be paid $250 million, he's just being greedy. But when the studios want to NOT pay $250 million, they're not greedy at all.

talk is cheap

He thinks that we owe him something after we've paid him over a quarter of a billion dollars

All I can say is, talk is cheap. It doesn't matter how much you've payed him. It only matters how much you promised to pay and then how much you really payed. Rest is rubbish.
 

Production rights?

How long do New Line keep their rights to the Hobbit movie?

I heard something about it not being many years at all after not starting production.

And many other movie execs would probably be eager to orgasm levels to make a Hobbit movie with Peter Jackson.

Wait, isn't Tolkien public domain by now?

What's to stop Jackson to produce and direct it on his own? It's not like he doesn't have enough money!

It's dodgier than a dodgy thing...

I'm not sure if anyone on the discussion noticed, but this suit is for Peter's rights to the profits to only the first movie in the trilogy, LOTR:The Fellowship of the Rings.

Newline has refused Wingnut films to audit the profits from the two subsequent films despite that they are contractually obligated to do so.

A totally CG Hobbit?

Wouldn't it be better to wait a few years and make a totally CG larger-than live Hobbit movie in the Tolkien universe? Buy your infrared goggles now.

Never trust a fat director

Oh wait, he's thin now, isn't he?

Re:Cheers indeed

You don't. Most people think Jackson was pretty much spot on in his adaptation. If anything, a new director, handpicked by the studio clowns, will be much, much worse.

Who wants to bet we'll see "younger, edgier" hobbits and a "rockin'" soundtrack. Justin Timberlake is getting some good buzz for his new movie. I wonder what his version of "The Road Goes Ever On and On" would sound like . . .

Re:Cheers indeed

I think he's directed some good movies, the LotR trilogy included, but I don't think he was "spot on" in his adaptation. If anything, there were very significant plot elements for which he opted to "adapt" them as being completely opposite to what Tolkien wrote.

I'm not talking about things like amplifying Arwen's role throughout the trilogy or removing Tom Bombadil. Some things just don't play well on the screen, and it's understandable that changes were made (even if I'm not a big fan of those changes).

I'm talking about, among other things, completely reinterpreting a character such as Faramir, who was at his core good and uncorrupted by a desire for power, unlike his brother Boromir. Rewriting Faramir to attempt to deliver the ring to Gondor, instead of seeing it for what it truly was, demonstrated Jackson's (and Walsh's and Boyens's) ignorance of, or refusal to appreciate, Faramir's significance in the story. There was (supposed to be) no conflict in Faramir's mind between helping to save his homeland by destroying the ring and bringing home a prize to please his unappreciative father. He had long ago resigned himself to being considered weak by his father in comparison to Boromir, because his weakness in the eyes of his father - acting for the good of all rather than the glory of Gondor - was actually a strength worthy of his Numenorean lineage.

Jackson claimed that Faramir had to be tempted just as everyone else who encountered the ring faced temptation, but that doesn't hold water - yes, Gandalf was tempted by it, Galadriel was tempted by it, but they both resisted - why couldn't Faramir?

Re:Cheers indeed

The temptation of the ring was so blatant it led to Boromir's demise. By making Faramir resist the temptation to take it back to Gondor from the get-go, Tolkien sharply contrasted the two brothers, something that was largely missing from the movie. Jackson could have played up that contrast even more with some dialogue that showed that while Faramir desired it as much as everyone else, he was willing to make that sacrifice for the greater good because he was a truly honorable person.

Re:Cheers indeed

I'm talking about, among other things, completely reinterpreting a character such as Faramir, who was at his core good and uncorrupted by a desire for power, ...

The thing is, books are omniscient. The author can occasionally spoon-feed the reader direct insight into a character's motivations and mental state. A sentence or two can convey immensities. A reader who gets confused can skip back a page or two, or stop and think for a few seconds.

Whereas in a movie the spectator has to infer it by being shown people doing things, in real time, with unstoppable story progression. If you do exposition, you either need a narrator to be set up and used consistently, or you have to make the watcher view the exposition through the lens of the character doing the talking. (Or, God help you, you can scroll text across a black screen. "It is the year 2147 and robots rule the Earth...") If the exposition is important, it has to be simplified and repeated to make sure the audience doesn't miss it. A flashback to Faramir and Boromir's boyhood could have been used to show their differences, but it would have broken the story flow and introduced at least two new (but not really) characters. Contrast that with how, upon Faramir seeing Pippin's uniform, the movie used a reminiscence to their youth instead of a flashback, which flowed well, burned only a couple of seconds of precious screen time, and gave a great deal of insight into Faramir and his essential humility.

He had long ago resigned himself to being considered weak by his father in comparison to Boromir, because his weakness in the eyes of his father - acting for the good of all rather than the glory of Gondor - was actually a strength worthy of his Numenorean lineage.

Faramir's actions in the movie clearly showed him to be good, not instantly and not starkly, but surely and strongly nonetheless. In his reflection upon the slain enemy, wondering if the enemy's duty and character were any less than his own. In the flashback to Boromir's lament to the king that "He tries to do well and you give him no credit." He held a sword in anger to Frodo's throat, with no possibility of the Ring escaping his grasp, then drew his hand back because the Ring was not his to wield. At Osgiliath, a trusted lieutenant reminded him of his supposed duty to bring the Ring back, and how failing that duty would cost him his honor in his father's eyes and his life, yet Faramir sent the Ring away with a smile and a clear heart, the cobwebs having been shaken away by the Enemy's hand. Likewise, his unselfconscious kindness and optimism with Eowyn were an echo of the grace of the kings of old; it is no trouble to imagine a prideful Boromir in the same circumstance snapping at Eowyn and raging at the wounds that keep him from battle.

Showing a story simply does not work the same way as telling it. That makes it different, not worse. And more's the luck, with this one you get both.

Re:Cheers indeed

yes, Gandalf was tempted by it, Galadriel was tempted by it, but they both resisted - why couldn't Faramir?

A) He's a human, and as said in the prologue, men, above all the other races, desire power, and B) he did resist in the end, so what's the problem?

If you watch the documentaries on the extended DVDs they explain the changes to Faramir pretty well. The main problem is that after spending hours beating it into the audience's head that the Ring is the most evil thing ever created, and then to have a character say, as in the books, "I would not take it if I found it by the wayside" just sucks all the power out of the Ring.

You should be asking, in the books, why wasn't Faramir even tempted?

Re:We are the fodder in this

You actually care? I enjoyed the LoTR movies, but I couldn't care less if they make another Hobbit, or if it is any good. It isn't injurious to me if it is bad, the one in my head is actually pretty good.

I smell astroturf.

If you want to flame Peter Jackson you should at least do it under a handle with a reputation.

Anonymous Coward postings on the subject are likely to be dismissed as studio astroturfing, trying to head off fan pressure on the studio administrators through their product sales prospects and stockholder/board pressure.

Re:Its amazing

Can you shoot a commercial grade movie? He can. How much that skill is worth? Well... apparently, that's in dispute.

Re:Its amazing

Please don't take out your anger on one issue against another.

The difference between Peter Jackson and the Home Depot CEO is that Peter Jackson made New Line money. Billions of dollars. [imdb.com]

Plus as others have pointed out, this is a matter of ensuring his contract is executed correctly. If New Line agreeded to give him a percentage cut, and they try change the books to make his cut smaller , he has every right to 'stick it to the man' trying to shaft him. And let's face it, it's not the first time a movie company has tried this. [wikipedia.org]

Re:We are the fodder in this

Insightful? How? Back this up with some facts otherwise it's just another bunch of unsubstantiated bullshit. I really dislike trolls trying to build up their lousy self esteem by trying to pull others down. You're a troll. I can assure Mr Jackon could not give two hoots for Hollywood and all the associated bullshit, infighting and internal politics surrounding it and I'm also certain that New Line will live to regret it's bullshit accounting practises.

Re:Its amazing

Nice way to ignore the move studio's greed.

Is it crazy to pay anyone millions of dollars for their work? Maybe, maybe not, but if a major company agrees to pay someone $X for their work and what they bring to a project it's utterly wrong to turn around and play the "you're being greedy wanting more money" card. If you agree to a deal with someone and they meet (and agruably exceed) your esxpectations then you should honor the deal, if you don't your a greedy slimeball who should be avoided at all costs.

New line agreed to pay Jackson according to some formula based on how well the movies did. Jackson is questioning their accounting practices and instead of turning around and saying "fine, look at the books, we paid you what we agreed to pay you", New Line has resorted to school yard tactics and they're basically calling him names. They have the information that could settle this case once and for all and the fact that they refuse to provide it makes it look like they do have something to hide.

You can lament that some people's salaries exist in a range that most of us can't even pretend to dream of, but think about what the big company is going to do to the average consumer if they'll turn on Jackson after he made them an amount of money that is many times greater than the what they paid him.

Good job at looking at just one side of the situation.

Re:Its amazing

for 10 years despite a %400 increase in the cost of living?

Instead of pulling numbers out of your arse, how about backing up that 400% increase in the cost of living?

$1US in 1996 is $1.29US in 2006. I'm not seeing the 400% increase. http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/research/data/us/ca lc// [frb.fed.us]

Feel free to actually use real statistical data to prove your point. Try here: http://www.newsengin.com/neFreeTools.nsf/CPIcalc?O penView&Start=1&Count=30&Expand=1#1/ [newsengin.com]

Repeating the same ol' dKos/DU/lib talking points about how bad the economy is, how bad minimum wage is, etc. will get you no where until you can put some data where your mouth is.

Instead of allowing the gov't to force you to pay someone a set price, how about letting the marketplace determine what the price should be? Seriously, how many people are married and have 4 kids and are working for minimum wage? Sounds like Darwin in action, if so.

Re:Its amazing

It works like this: Someone says "I'll give you $X to do this, You do the job and receive $Y. When they refuse to explain the difference you take them to court. The reason they get paid soo much, is supply and demand. If you make 3 movies like Lord of the Rings, you can ask for that much money. It's called capitalism.

Re:Its amazing

I totally agree about Bob Nardelli - what I've read about his resignation from Home Depot seems to indicate it came from the stock losing ground vs. a competitor over a six-year period, and you're right that most of us would simply be shown the door without a golden handshake for doing a poor job.

That said, this has absolutely nothing to do with Peter Jackson vs. New Line.

Signing a contract with somebody saying you're going to pay them a certain amount of money, then covering your tracks so you don't have to pay them as much - if this is indeed what occurred - deserves to be pursued just on principle, regardless of the amount of money involved. I don't care if we're talking $250 million for making a trilogy that grosses $3 billion dollars as the box office, or $25 for fixing a friend of a friend's computer. There's still something to be said these days about giving your word to somebody and then following through with it.

Re:Its amazing

I can not imagine ever thinking $250 million is not enough FOR MY OWN back account. It would be different if I owned a company but still that is more money than the GDP of some countries. Good god.

What if he wanted to start a company?

Or finance his own movie? Become the next Lucas. (Though hopefully without the decline into sucktitude.)

Or what if he's just concerned about the principle of the thing and is tired of seeing the studios screw the actual artists out of money through "questionable" accounting that produces values like Spiderman making no profit. (Stan Lee said he wasn't wasn't paid anything until he sued Marvel despite the movie grossing over $800m worldwide, having a production budget of under $140 million, and a contract that said he was to be paid 10% of profits.)

Re:Its amazing

It's not Peter Jackson the person suing New Line to reveal whether or not it's cooked the books (and it certainly looks like it has), it's Wingnut Films. Peter Jackson founded the company and I'm sure he owns a big chunk of it, but it's a company nevertheless. A company with shareholders and employees, people who have bills and rent and mortgages.

It looks like the issue is something like this.

Wingnut does a deal with New Line, something like "You lend us X dollars, and we'll make three movies that make you a whole lot more than X. In return, when other companies distribute and license the movies, the characters, the music, and all that stuff, you give us a fair share -- let's call it Y% -- of the money that you make, because after all we made the movies and did all the hard work. Deal? Deal."

Time passes. The movies are huge. They are, in fact, the most profitable movies in history. Rather than just getting back "more than X", New Line is getting something around "more than thirteen times X". Seriously. For every dollar invested, New Line is getting thirteen back.

So, after the chaos of openings and Oscars and awards left and right has calmed down a bit, Wingnut's accountants notice that Y% is turning out to be a lot less money than they expected. So much less that getting Y% is starting to look like a bad deal, especially given that New Line is laughing all the way to the bank. So Wingnut has a preliminary audit done of the first movie's finances, and it turns out that New Line is actually GIVING AWAY THE MOVIES FOR FREE because the partners and licensees it has signed up all turn out to be, surprise surprise, NEW LINE SUBSIDIARIES. And guess what Y% of FREE is. (note: the subsidiaries didn't actually pay nothing, but it was so much less than market value, it's basically the same thing. Especially when Wingnut's deal was based on market value.)

So the accountants alert Wingnut's executives to the fact that Y% of something that is being given away for free isn't very much. Wingnut's executives then go "Holy shit, are you serious? OK, New Line, we've got to have proper audits down, including the second and third movies, to see what the story is".

New Line: "Um, no."
Wingnut: "Seriously guys, something's not right here, we have to go through the books."
New Line: "No."
Wingnut: "OK, well we'll have to get the lawyers involved, because this is starting to look really dodgy."
New Line to the media: "PETER JACKSON IS A GREEDY MOTHERFUCKER AND WE'RE NEVER WORKING WITH HIM AGAIN"
Peter Jackson: "WTF?"

It's not a personal paycheck

Why do we allow our culture to pay people so much money while the minimum wage remains the same for 10 years despite a %400 increase in the cost of living? I do not blame the studio's and would certainly not want to hire him back again. For 1/10th the cost I could find a top hollywood director which has better talent.

Would you care so much if it was a $250 million dispute between Microsoft and IBM? I doubt that Peter Jackson is personally being paid $250 million, and it's not going into his personal bank account. I also doubt that he negotiated the original deal with his personal fortune in mind. I wouldn't be surprised for a minute, however, to hear that he always had plans to use the money for building his film-making businesses into something really impressive. And that's effectively what he's been doing. This guy's about as down-to-Earth as you'd get, except that he has an interest in making expensive movies. I doubt he really cares about how much money he has with the exception of wanting to be treated fairly so he can continue to make the types of movies he wants to.

From everything I've read so far, it sounds to me as if the studios are acting like retarded morons to try and avoid fronting up. Jackson's main complaint is that a partial audit of the first movie showed a lot of ambiguity about where the money had gone. Now Newline is preventing the rest of that movie, or the other two movies from being audited, and they're simply spinning the media to avoid the bad publicity of talking about the real issue, which is probably that they've cooked the books to avoid giving him money. It sounds completely reasonable to me to want a fuller audit.

Running these types of businesses isn't exactly cheap. The amount of money involved could make a big difference to the ability of Jackson's companies to compete with others in the industry. It's a misconception to believe that this is nothing more than a personal paycheck, when it's really useful income for companies like Weta Workshop or Three Foot Six, and sorting this out will affect everyone who has an interest in those organisations.

Re:Its amazing

your a fucking idiot. new line is trying to screw him out of money with creative accounting. peter brought them BILLIONS he only made a small % of what LOTR will bring in over it's life time.

Re:Its amazing

Okay...
Let's say that you agreed to work for 30% of the take.
They make $1 "Billion" dollars.

They give you $250 "Million" dollars.

Are you being greedy to ask for your other bloody 50 MILLION dollars?

Re:Cheers indeed

Jackson is a terrible director? I don't think so. What about his work on Meet the Feebles, Heavenly Creatures or even The frighteners? Also, he's a lot more than just a director. He's also a writer and knows a lot about cinematography and effects. Are you just basing your opinion on the Lord of the Rings trilogy? Sure, that's not his best work, but it's not his entire body of work by any means.

Re:Its amazing

I can not imagine ever thinking $250 million is not enough FOR MY OWN back account. It would be different if I owned a company but still that is more money than the GDP of some countries. Good god.

So, it would be perefectly OK to you, if you created a work that was worth $500 million - and then some shitbag Hollywood executive who had little to do with making your work then took the extra $250 million you were owed, and used the money to buy Ferraris and child prostitutes, while arguing "Hey - isn't $250 million enough for you?

Why do we allow our culture to pay people so much money while the minimum wage remains the same for 10 years despite a %400 increase in the cost of living?

Peter Jackson is famous for giving people a break. He has lifted many people out of near minimum wage work and given them creative and technical careers. That money is muchy better in Peter Jackson's hands than some Hollywood shitbag's. He will do much more good with it. It's not like the movie companies are going to donate that money to charity. But Peter Jackson will do good with it (and probably donate to charity as well.)

I mean, damn, he gave the whole nation of New Zealand a great break - and it's not exactly the richest or widely acknowledged country in the world.

Re:Its amazing

place a 100% tax on all earnings above say 100,000 per year and then we can give that money to poor people

      And guess what, wiseguy? Poor people will STILL be poor.

Re:Its amazing

I can not imagine ever thinking $250 million is not enough FOR MY OWN back account.

If you ever get your hands around $250M, I'd suggest you not put it all in one bank account. The FDIC only insures your deposits up to $100,000 per bank.

Re:Its amazing

Why do we allow our culture to pay people so much money while the minimum wage remains the same for 10 years despite a %400 increase in the cost of living?

Because the people working for minimum wage don't contribute much to the economy. If they did, they'd be able to earn more money -- that's what money is, it's an abstraction of the value of the contribution you make to the economy.

Aside from that, as others have pointed out, this isn't a personal paycheck for Peter Jackson -- it's for a company full of ordinary (well, somewhat extraordinary) people who worked their asses off to make three movies which millions of people enjoyed. New Line Cinema's dodgy accounting practices is screwing those people out of money they have earned.

Re:Its amazing

Billly Gates (198444) wrote:

How does greed work?

Imposter! This isn't Bill Gates at all! :-)

Re:I have no respect for Jackson

Ever try to make a movie?

Re:Its amazing

You probably side with the owners in baseball, too. Why should anyone make $5million/year to play baseball, right?

Re:I have no respect for Jackson

Erm, it's Peter Jackson's COMPANY doing the whining here, because the COMPANY (with all those people you say that made it successful) that didn't get as much as it should have, which affects those people you say made it successful. You know, the cast and crew?

Re:Its amazing

Is anyone else seeing the irony of a poster named "Billy Gates" decrying a company getting large sums of money?

But to the point - this isn't about greed. All the lawsuit is asking for is the opening of the books for independant auditing. There is absolutely no way to spin that negatively, but the studio has now descended into attempting it.

Re:Bombadil

I bet if he'd put Tom Bombadil in it, he'd have got his money Tom^H^H^HEru Ilúvatar works in mysterious ways. He's actually lucky that Wingnut films hasn't disappeared under the sea like Númenor.

Re:Its amazing

Back in the early 1990s, congress passed a law making salaries over $1 million not tax deductable as a business expense (hollywood was exempt; this only applied to CEOs and such). For those of you not paying attention (I'm looking at you, Mr AC), it worked. If by "worked" you mean that high salaries were replaced with stock grants, options, private jets, and other creative ways to transfer the money without showing up in a line figure.

Re:I have no respect for Jackson

You know, I hope you never run a business of your own, because you wouldn't (or shouldn't) be in business very long with that "holier-than-thou" attitude of yours. Now that I've attempted to be civil, I have two things to say to you: STFU and STFD.

Re:I have no respect for Jackson

What movies have you made besides a 3min porno with your hand?

The 250m is not all for himself dude, he does have staff.

So who deserves the 'profits' more.... New line or Wing Nut?

Just like with music, does Sony deserve 50 years of obscene profits, or the artists?

Distributors are a dime a dozen, artists are rare.

Minimum wage considered harmful

When people do valuable work, they get paid more than minimum wage. Have you ever heard of a skilled doctor who earns only minimum wage?

The minimum wage sets a floor, below which people may not be paid. That means that a business will never take a chance on some job candidates. If some guy Joe with no education shows up to sweep the floors for $2 an hour, and the boss notices that Joe always shows up on time and does a great job, Joe can get promoted (not hard to get promoted from a bottom-rung job like floor sweeping); pretty soon Joe is getting $8 or $10 an hour. Compare with the minimum wage: Joe applies for a job, and the boss says "this guy has no education, no way am I paying him $7.25 an hour".

Also, instead of hiring several people at $2 per hour, and promoting the ones who turn out to be good workers, businesses will hire a single person at $7.25 an hour, and try to hire only workers that will turn out to be good workers. So not only is it harder to get a job, there are fewer jobs to get.

In short, a minimum wage saws off the bottom rungs of the ladder. This doesn't hurt me, or anyone else who is above the bottom of the ladder already. It only hurts the very people it is supposedly helping.

If the minimum wage is such a good idea, why don't we set it at $1000 per hour? I'd like to earn $1000 per hour. Well, most people can tell right away that a $1000 minimum wage would have some bad effects. A $7.25 minimum wage has the same bad effects, but they aren't as obvious.