Psystar "Definitely Still Shipping" Mac Clones 833
Preedit writes "Continuing its defiance of Apple, Psystar is reassuring customers that it is "definitely still shipping" its line of Mac clones. And, in a further nose-thumbing at Steve Jobs, Psystar this week said it's now making Leopard restore disks available to its customers, even as Apple insists that Mac clones sold to date be recalled.
In its story on the latest developments, Infoweek is reporting that tiny Psystar apparently has no intention of backing down in its legal dispute with the much larger Apple."
Well good for them (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Well good for them (Score:5, Insightful)
I for one am tired of Apple's Monopolistic business practices on their Mac range.
Isn't that like saying you're tired of Slashdot's monopolistic business practices on its Slashdot brand? By default, every company has a monopoly on its own products.
cars (Score:3, Interesting)
We went through this with cars. The manufacturers, who had just as deep of pockets and just as many or more of lawyers as apple could possibly throw at this situation wanted to make it so you could only get and install bloated price OEM parts to go on their cars. They lost in court and now you can go to the parts store and get a variety of parts that don't come from the major manufactuers and have their stamp on them, but they will fit into place and work. You can get out your welder and mix and match for t
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
How does Apple have a monopoly? They are hardly the only OS or PC vendor on the market. This is like saying that Dell has a monopoly on Dell computers.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not so much about monopolies, but perceived monopolies. Most people believe Apple has a monopoly on computers that run osX. Many people believe Apple has a monopoly on computers that will run media editing programs. Far too many people believe Apple has a monopoly on computers that, "just work"(tm).
Re:WRONG!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Or Apple's reputation of "just working" will go down the tubes because they no longer have total control over the hardware.
If Apple starts trying to support every combination of 3rd party hardware out there, OSX will start having reliability problems just like Windows does.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There's a chance of that, but arguably os/x's driver model is a bit more solid than windows'.
I'd hope for a very solid spec and verification program to keep things as reliable as they are today.
More choice = better. Simple, really.
Re:WRONG!! (Score:4, Insightful)
More choice = better. Simple, really.
[Citation needed]
I don't like choice WRT Ethernet cables, or WIFI standards, or inter net protocols. I'm happy with IP having the monopoly of the internet.
Aside from that, Apple has no right to say what other manufacturer can build.
Of course, they can refuse to support OSX outside of Apple computers, that's their business choice.
Re:WRONG!! (Score:5, Interesting)
They do have a right to say that upgrade-only versions of their OS are not sold as full versions.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:WRONG!! (Score:4, Insightful)
PsyStar might be able to argue that, but it'd be a technicality. It might work for the copies PsyStar has already bought, but Apple would overcome it by issuing all new retail upgrades with "Upgrade Only" all over the box, disks, and manuals.
The "to be installed on Apple-branded computers only" line means it really is just an upgrade license, because those Apple-branded computers already have some earlier versions of the OS licensed. The PsyStar boxes don't.
Now, there's also the illegal tying route that PsyStar might argue, and a few other things probably as well.
I kind of hope Apple loses this one, but I wouldn't at all put money on that outcome.
Re:WRONG!! (Score:5, Insightful)
you still have a choice of wifi manufacturers, ethernet cable manufacturers and implementors of internet protocols, I think you are confusing standardization and monopolization, they're two entirely unrelated concepts.
Re:WRONG!! (Score:5, Informative)
That reputation may apply to their software, but it doesn't apply to their hardware. Even Apple fans acknowledge that the first generation of almost anything is rather likely to expose some pretty significant flaws that, for some reason, never revealed itself during testing prior to release. I recall the overheating MacBookPro line... That should have been pretty darned obvious. But not every Apple fan acknowledges this... I had a vice president in my company acknowledge that he waited more than 4 hours to get the 3G iPhone and he has been rather disappointed in various aspects of its performance since.
Re:WRONG!! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:WRONG!! (Score:4, Interesting)
Windows may have some pretty severe reliability problems. However, I haven't had any problems with hardware drivers since the Win9x days. Hardware drivers are not a major source of Windows' reliability problems.
There isn't a terribly wide selection of hardware currently in production that isn't already supported by OS X. We already have good drivers for Intel chipsets, ATI and nVidia graphics, and most commonly-used networking controllers.
Re:WRONG!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:WRONG!! (Score:5, Insightful)
OS X supports quite nearly as much hardware as Windows. It's a matter of getting good drivers written.
There's a conflicting statement if I ever saw one. It supports nearly as much hardware as Windows, but the drivers don't exist. That would imply that it doesn't support the hardware.
Re:WRONG!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple doesn't get special privileges because it "only" holds a smaller percentage of the hundreds of millions of computer sales out there. Their computers are overpriced and they need competition.
I am confused. You state that Apple has a small market share, but doesn't have enough competition. It would seem to me that the other 85% of the market might provide it some competition. For example, there's this OS called windows, perhaps you've heard of it? I've heard it's pretty popular, and some people apparently choose it instead of OS X.
Re:WRONG!! (Score:4, Insightful)
I love how on newegg, etc, "Apple" hard drives are a separate section, and they cost a LOT more
Can you post some links? I just checked the "External Harddrives" and "Mac Harddrives" listings, filtering for Western Digital, and all the they didn't have any of the same models in both categories. The notable difference is that most of the non-Mac drives had just USB 2.0, whereas most of the Mac drives had USB 2.0, 1394a, 1394b, and eSATA. So if you can find a drive listed under both the "Mac Harddrives" and "External Harddrives" sections and is more expensive in the Mac listing, I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to see it.
Re:WRONG!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Everybody will win: more folks will run a more secure OS than Windows and Apple will still get all the OS sales.
Uhh. OSX is not very secure. IIRC a month or so back a windows, an OSX and a Linux machine were set up and the OSX machine went down first. Even before the Windows machine. OSX is secure cause nobody attacks it. As soon as more people run it you will see its shortcommings.
Re:WRONG!! (Score:4, Insightful)
IIRC a month or so back a windows, an OSX and a Linux machine were set up and the OSX machine went down first. Even before the Windows machine. OSX is secure cause nobody attacks it. As soon as more people run it you will see its shortcommings.
Not to burst your bubble, but that was when the attackers had physical access... As far as I'm concerned, if someone has physical access to your box, you're already screwed.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Buying a MacBook Air for performance is like buying one of those Smart Cars for towing capacity. The MacBook Air is about portability and designed for road warriors who want something lightweight that can do most things. The performance is okay as it was intended to be better than most sub-not
Re:WRONG!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well good for them (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well good for them (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, if such software was open sourced, for example, people might be able to come up with new and beneficial uses - not to mention being able to fix problems themselves.
Or do you not remember honda's "Accidental" higher mileage clocking that if people had access to the software, they could fix themselves. http://autos.aol.com/article/general/v2/_a/honda-odometer-problem/20070220091309990002 [aol.com]
Also, they use proprietary stuff just to connect to the car that is prohibitive to the consumer (quite intentional
Re:It's simply the Mac business model (Score:5, Informative)
Does this qualify as fanboy bullshit? Why? I'm just saying if you don't like it, don't use it. But the facts speak for themselves. People hate Vista, the average Joe can't/won't figure out linux, and people generally enjoy the Apple experience.
Those opinions you express are not facts. They are, as you accurately phrase it, 'fanboy bullshit'.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Err... hard to call the Windows generalization "bullshit" given all the backlash against Vista -- the word "hate" may be very applicable. Your standard off-the-street computer users can't figure out Windows, much less the more technologically-complex Linux. (Unless you're arguing that installing/using Linux requires fewer computer skills than Windows...?) And while plenty of people are dissatisfied with Apple, the company still has some of the highest customer service and satisfaction ratings in the comp
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You have hit on something here. The Mac users that I know are using them for one or both of two reasons: Reputation of 'just works' and Macs are seen as high end. Nobody wants to work on their Porsche themselves. When you get right down to it, there is no secure computing platform for the average joe. They all have problems.
Once you agree to that, it comes down to price and will it run the software that I want to run. Some folks use Mac for the software (artsy bastards). Some folks don't use Mac so they can
The law doesn't enforce buiseness models (Score:5, Insightful)
The law should not care about apple's (or anyone else's) buiseness model. It should just care about providing a framework for a competitive market.
In my opinion, any license provision which enforces vertical integration should be unenforcable. I have not read TFA (hey, this is slashdot!), so I'll make a generic example. Let's say apple sells an operating system. It also sells computers with the os preinstalled. Let's say somebody else starts buying the operating system from apple, buying hardware from somewhere else, and selling the hardware with the operating system preinstalled. First sale doctrine should allow this. The assertion that the software is licensed rather than sold shouldn't in my non-lawyer opinion hold in court, since there are no recurring payments.
This is good for competition because it would force apple to have their hardware be competitively priced. Of course, if their hardware has a high cool factor (like the macbook air, or the iphone) and people are willing to pay extra for that, that doesn't mean it has to be cheap.
Re:It's simply the Mac business model (Score:4, Insightful)
I have never met a single iPhone user who has had extensive use of a smart phone. Most iPhone users probably couldn't even come up with a somewhat accurate definition of a smart phone. Most probably know nothing about PalmOS or WindowsCE. Your remark is FUD, at best.
Does this qualify as fanboy bullshit? Why?
Because what you're saying really isn't "If you don't approve, you don't have to buy their stuff." What you're really saying is "When Apple can no longer control the hardware OSX will be another Vista." This may be true but that still doesn't hold water if it's legal. If a Mac is so superior that it is worth the money involved than people will not buy the clones and they will go under due to the alleged high standards of Apple. Otherwise it's just a bunch of lip service and deserves to wither on the vine.
Re:It's simply the Mac business model (Score:5, Interesting)
"I have never met a single iPhone user who has had extensive use of a smart phone. Most iPhone users probably couldn't even come up with a somewhat accurate definition of a smart phone."
You have a deliberately narrow experience, you implicitly insult everyone who would buy an iPhone, and yet Slashdot readers think you're insightful.
"If a Mac is so superior that it is worth the money involved than people will not buy the clones and they will go under due to the alleged high standards of Apple."
This is exactly what will happen. I own a number of real Apple Macs, but I also own a fancy quad-core 8GB Hackintosh. I can attest that even the most modern Hacktintosh creation (like mine, running an unmolested retail copy of Leopard) is most definitely not as seamless an experience as a real Mac is. I'm not going to get rid of the Hackintosh, but I can say with some authority that the experience is sufficiently inferior to owning a real Mac that I wouldn't put up with it if I didn't enjoy tinkering with PC's.
Re:It's simply the Mac business model (Score:4, Insightful)
So you're saying that the majority of all iPhone users have extensive experience with a smart phone? If not than your statement is false. Period.
I neither insulted people who buy an iPhone in general nor did I say that no one with an iPhone has this experience. It's great to see people post their experience with both sets of phones, for those who have it, but the majority of the current iPhone user base is people who have known Motorola Razors, some unknown model of Nokia or LG and the iPhone. You can not tell me you don't think this is the case.
And how do you know the scope of my experience? Talk about insulting.
This is exactly what will happen. I own a number of real Apple Macs, but I also own a fancy quad-core 8GB Hackintosh. I can attest that even the most modern Hacktintosh creation (like mine, running an unmolested retail copy of Leopard) is most definitely not as seamless an experience as a real Mac is. I'm not going to get rid of the Hackintosh, but I can say with some authority that the experience is sufficiently inferior to owning a real Mac that I wouldn't put up with it if I didn't enjoy tinkering with PC's.
That's fair but according to what I've read here the PC in question from the third party isn't coming with vanilla OS X. I agree that the experience is likely to be different but I would hope that even you would agree that it has the potential to be vastly different than your own. Psystar could certainly be fly-by-night but there is also a good chance that they have the talent on their side to create something that offers a robust experience.
From what you're saying it's like saying the user experience of every Vista user who isn't using a Vista badged machine should be disqualified from having their opinions known. There are tons of people, mostly amateurs from the get go, who are trying to put Vista on 8 year old hardware and having a bad time with it. Maybe OSX can do this seamlessly, I don't know but from the aspects of Linux I've also found that running the latest Ubuntu on one of my 8 year old PCs to be a painful (to say the least) experience. Should I hold this against Unbuntu or Linux in general? IMHO, not really. While fanbois will rave about how their pet OSs work fine "out of the box" the truth seems to be a bit different.
Re:It's simply the Mac business model (Score:4, Insightful)
I guess Mac fanboys just regurgitate anything Mac commercials present to them as "fact".
Are these Mac commercials?
http://news.google.com/news?q=vista%20adoption [google.com]
I'll just list those in order as I see them now:
Red Hat's Window of Opportunity Arises from Slow Vista Adoption Rates
Report Finds Dip in Microsoft's Browser Share
180 Million Vista Licenses Mean What?
Enterprise Adoption of Vista at 'Single Digits,' Report Says
More and More IT Pros are Ignoring Vista. Where's the Wow Now?
Vista Adoption Stymied Despite SP1
and so on and so on and so on and so on...
And on what basis do you say that the $130 Mac OS X costs more than the $340 Vista? Are you talking about the price of the PC (despite that not being what I was talking about)? Are you aware that pretty much every study of cost of ownership has shown Macs to cost less than Windows PCs (and usually less than any other PC)? And since Apple has gone to Intel hardware, most breakdowns of the cost of their machines show that they are priced inline with other major manufacturers. So the OS costs less, the cost of ownership is less, and the hardware is average-priced. Macs cost more how?
The Mac is a vastly superior user experience. A lot of people may have different opinions on this, but the majority tends to agree. Read any hardcore PC magazine (eg ComputerWorld, eWeek, etc.) when they review a new model of Mac. The primary reasons for using Windows are always that it has such a high adoption rate, or derivative arguments from that, such as your "more games" concept. I play tons of games on my Mac and haven't noticed anything missing from my life. But if I wanted to, I could shell out the fat chunk of change for Windows, boot my Mac into it, and play the same thousands of indistinguishable, lookalike games that you can.
I'm tired of companies selling me shit and then telling me I'm just licensing it and have no rights to use it.
But you were just defending Windows. Get your story straight. Apple has an EULA, but they don't even require a serial number to install OS X.
P.S. When you say that your computer plays the same songs... what software is it that most people use to play their songs?
Follow the money (Score:5, Interesting)
Where are Psystar getting the money from for all this? Because defending a case of this nature is going to be damn expensive and if they're such a small startup the last thing they want to be doing is spending all their money on legal bills.
Re:Follow the money (Score:5, Interesting)
It could be funded by a larger OEM manufacturer to use as a test case.
Of psystar fails, no effect to them. If it succeeds, they roll out their own line of Mac compatibles.
Re:Follow the money (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
1. Sell Mac clones
2. Rake in profit
3. ???
4. Get sued, loose but all the money is already in your pocket and the company goes out of business
Re:Follow the money (Score:5, Interesting)
When a person or private company is being sued by a large corporation or vice versa, in some cases the private company can claim in advance for expected legal fees, which they usually have to reimburse if they lose.
For example my father fell victim to a shady trick by a landholding corporation during a $1.2M real estate deal, and he refused to refund their $50k deposit. The corporation sued him for the deposit, and he countered with a claim for expected legal fees in advance, and was awarded $5k before even setting foot in court. He also had a strong case for misrepresentation, so the corporation withdrew the suit rather than add to their potential losses, realizing their bully tactics wouldn't work. The court ruled they still had to pay the $5k.
Re:Follow the money (Score:5, Funny)
Note, I am neither a lawyer nor a master criminal. As such an advice taken from this poor excuse at humor, may not be in your interest. And this posting should not be taken as an endorsement of any crimes or misdemeanors, but rather as a crudely constructed parody of such.
Re: (Score:3)
After years on the Internet, I have a very good sense about trolls.
Pystar could be the first troll company and they are currently winning because Apple "replies" to them.
People obviously ask the point of it. Would you dare to ship "Windows Vista" on a no name CDR and sell it on street next to police station? For Apple, a computer running OS X is not very different from OS X DVD copy.
It will be so hard to make people understand that there are 2 different philosophies on Desktop OS. One is Microsoft and other
Good for them... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If it was 1990s which clones were legal, Apple wouldn't license Mac to Pystar company. If you look at the clone makers, they were very well established companies with years of experience in Macintosh market.
Apple founder believes software and hardware should be perfectly integrated just like your average household device. They even do same thing on iPhone. Why nobody thinks about the possibility of licensing iPhone OS to other handset manufacturers? Because they are phones? Well, for Apple, a computer shoul
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Except Apple is in the right. They own the copyright to OS X, which means Psystar has no right to distribute restore discs (which they are) nor to modify OS X (which they do to create restore discs and install), nor to install (which is part of the EULA/contract).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
But didn't Apple spend a whole ton of money to write and maintain Mac OS X?
Ever heard of BSD?
Re:Good for them... (Score:5, Interesting)
Pystar is distributing them with a purchased license. It's not just a warez copy they're chunking in. The whole crux of the issue is whether the clause that OS X can only be installed on an Apple machine is legally enforceable. Despite having a metric shit-ton of money to throw at this trial, previous legal decisions don't look good for Apple in this case. They're free to sell any software they develop. They're free to sell any hardware as well. To try and artificially lock one to the other when there is no techincal reason to do so just might not fly.
If Toyota developer "SUPERGAS" that got 125 MPG in the new Camry but only sold it at Toyota dealerships and only to Toyota owners (with the explicit instructions that it not be sold to Ford owners), then they'd have a hell of a time legally claiming that somebody couldn't buy it from them and then sell it to owners of modified Mustangs to use. Doesn't matter that they developed the new gas with their cars in mind. Doesn't matter if they claim that you're not allowed to resell it to others. They couldn't legally restrict you from reselling it and using it as you see fit.
Re:Good for them... (Score:4, Informative)
None of which are in the public domain nor BSD, yet Psystar is distributing.
You misspelled "reselling".
Re:Good for them... (Score:5, Insightful)
But didn't Apple spend a whole ton of money to write and maintain Mac OS X?
Yes they did, so if I wanted to buy a copy, I'd pay them for it. We're not talking about warez here, we're talking about the freedom to run software that I've paid for on whatever system I damn well like.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, well, problem is they are subsidizing the retail value of the OS with hardware. You get OS X for $129 because they are more interested in selling hardware. Take that away and they become another MS and the cost of the OS jumps. It also becomes big bloated mess like Windows (and Linux, sorry) because they have to support unlimited permutations of hardware.
Re:Good for them... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, well, problem is they are subsidizing the retail value of the OS with hardware. You get OS X for $129 because they are more interested in selling hardware. Take that away and they become another MS and the cost of the OS jumps. It also becomes big bloated mess like Windows (and Linux, sorry) because they have to support unlimited permutations of hardware.
If indeed they are well subsidizing the retail value of the OS with hardware, it still shouldn't be anyone else's problem but theirs. It's their job to adapt their business model to the open market, it is not the market's job to adapt to their business model.
Of course they shouldn't have to support anyone's hardware but their own. However, if I build a completely original box in my garage which can run OSX, and I sell and support it, why should Apple be allowed to shut me down?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I believe that is exactly the point. Apple hardware is subsidizing the OS.
Re:Good for them... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good for them... (Score:4, Insightful)
I know this isn't the exact same situation but I can walk into an Apple store and buy a copy of OS X and go home and install on it on a system that isn't Apple. That should be my choice. I'm happy to give up whatever rights I have for support by doing this but it should be my choice. The same goes for all products. If I buy an iPhone, an EeePC, or a Dell, it should be my choice to mod it in anyway. I paid the money they asked for the product and now it becomes mine. They are willing to share their other software with my Windows machine (iTunes, Safari) so why not let us use their OS? We are paying for a license to use it.
Just my 2 cents.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Because it's an end-user license agreement, not a distribution license. If copyright law were sensible, this would be completely invalid. If you buy a book, you don't need a license to read it, because this right is automatically granted to you by copyright. You don't need a license to pull out the pages, paste them together in a different order, set fire to the book, or anything else. You would only need a license if you wanted to sell or give away copies of the book.
For software, companies are expl
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Why? It is a commodity good sold off the shelf - it is NOT a licensed product despite whatever bullshit is present in the EULA. You buy it without signing a contract off the shelf therefore you have the right of first sale to install it on anything you can put it on (aside from violating copyrights of course, so that means installing it on one workstation), use it as a coaster, sell it for a zillion times the price you paid for it (as long as you retain no backups) or use a heat wire cutter and carve the di
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The GPL gives you rights that copyright would not normally allow. EULAs take away rights that the doctrine of first sale would normally permit. That's the difference.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The GPL gives you rights that copyright would not normally allow. EULAs take away rights that the doctrine of first sale would normally permit. That's the difference.
The first sale doctrine allows you to sell the software to someone else. A clause in a EULA that doesn't allow you to sell the software on is not valid. However, the first sale doctrine doesn't affect anything else in the EULA. If you bought MacOS X with the intention to install it on a Dell, then read the EULA and find out it doesn't allow it, then you have the right to return the software, or you can make use of the first sale doctrine and sell it to me. But I will be bound by the EULA in exactly the same
They are trying to get sued by Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think any sane company will break Apple's agreements, licenses on USA soil.
Remember the company shipped "Apple G6 Desktop" and got sued big time? It wasn't based at USA and they weren't trying that hard to get sued. Some media guy browsing Alibaba found the machine, that is all.
For some reason we can't know, Pystar looks like they will be very, very happy if Apple sues them further or this thing becomes more complex.
Would you dare to mess with a gigantic company who even tried to sue State of New York for "Apple" logo? If you dare, would you start your business in USA? Some very big promises/guarantees by very big corporate powers must be given to Pystar. Don't get surprised if there is real IT media left and uncovers it.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Would you dare to mess with a gigantic company who even tried to sue State of New York for "Apple" logo?
Depends. If I don't have a family to support, a respectable cushion fund, and can represent myself... why not?
Even if I make a complete fool of myself, the experience alone would be worth it. If, by some freak occurrence, I actually won.... Well, let's just say I'd like that fact engraved on my grave.
If you dare, would you start your business in USA?
Since the US legal system is the only one I have even a basic knowledge of, yes. :)
Re:They are trying to get sued by Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
If they win, they will have invsestors beating down their door. And they will break into the market of the fastest growing personal computer manufacturer. Plus, it will resolve a long standing legal question as to the validity of EULAs. I see no down side here for them at all.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If they win, anyone can ship OS X installed PC and believe me there are lot better companies with very known brands to ship it.
So it is like a suicide mission but for who?
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Plus ça change, plus c'est la même ch (Score:4, Informative)
I think Compaq had Microsoft and some part of Government/Corporate scene who is very afraid of IBM monopoly behind them.
Microsoft was allowed to license MS-DOS to _anyone which wants_ from the beginning. It is part of their agreement with IBM and it is why BillG and Ballmer are called "visionary". There is no such thing on OS X. Apple believes in integrated hardware/software combination from the very beginning.
Having reports like "I pressed power button but my Mac slept 10 secs later, it must be broken" is very common on Apple scene. It is nothing on a PC running Windows or Clone OS X.
What those idiots did is also convincing Apple that clones/licensed machines was always a bad idea. They ship JUNK PC.
Re:Plus c,a change, plus c'est la meme chose (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Plus ça change, plus c'est la même ch (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, the verb tenses are a little confused, but you know what I mean.
I admire their gall (Score:5, Interesting)
I have to say that I admire their gall. They're paying a rather dangerous game*. Unless they have some really kick ass lawyers who can convince a judge of the unenforcability of Apple's licensing terms, I don't see anything happening except Psystar getting smacked down HARD. As in, take all their assets + punitive damages hard.
Of course, this could be a situation like General Computer Corporation. (The Namco & Atari partner who created Ms. Pac Man.) They were just a bunch of college kids having fun, and they didn't have money anyway. When they got sued, their reaction was: "Cool, we get to go to court!" Sometimes it's nice not having anything to lose.;-)
Mac Compatible... (Score:5, Interesting)
While it may be shaky grounds to sell these machines as Mac Clones. There should be no reason not to sell those machines with a Linux Equivalent. The nice thing is that you -could- buy a Leopard disk and load it, that is your own choice.
This is no different as my Intel PC that runs Ubuntu, but -could- run Vista if I wanted to.
Its the restore disks that will be their downfall! (Score:5, Insightful)
That's going to be their downfall in this - the derivative work.
Re:Its the restore disks that will be their downfa (Score:3, Insightful)
Watch carefully!! (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a VERY interesting case. Who is Psystar?
Seriously, out of nowhere, a tiny company starts to sell mac clones. It was so sketchy, we on slashdot originally called it a hoax.
Now, they got the guys who beat Apple once before representing them in the fight.
Curiouser and curiouser. It may be an intentionally staged dispute by various oems to create a Mac market for themselves. Vista is not moving boxes, but Mac compatible motherboards may be profitable.
The objective may be Apple's refusal to allow MacOS on non-Mac hardware. If they win, and Apple is not able to enforce this restriction, I can see a whole bunch of clones flooding the market.
Not clones! (Score:3, Informative)
Psystar ships its own flavor of hackintosh... they are not clones. I don't get the persistence of the label. Is it just the desire of folks to have an actual clone as a choice to run OS X that keeps the term active in discussions?
When do we get a $99 PsiPhone? (Score:3, Funny)
What exactly is so special about these systems? (Score:4, Interesting)
Read TFA, googled a little. It seems like I'm missing something. It seems they simply charge outrageous markup on generic, mediocre Intel systems [psystar.com]. Throw in a moderately cheap-looking case and charge $155 [macworld.com] for the OS installation. What's new here?
If this was back when Apple was using PowerPC processors, maybe they'd have a point. But I don't see this as being a "clone" of a Mac, because clone implies hardware and this (and the Mac's) hardware is the same as everyone else's.
In defense of Pystar (Score:3, Interesting)
Even if they win, they'll still lose (Score:4, Insightful)
Even if Psystar somehow manages a court victory that would allow them to purchase and sell copies of OS X installed on generic x86 boxes, all that Apple has to do is stop selling OS X to any retail outlet other than its own. If Psystar can't get legal copies of the software to put on the machines it sells, there isn't any legal way that they can stay in business at that point, other than going to Apple stores and purchasing copies of OS X at full retail price.
We're also heading towards a future of digital distribution. It started with music, has moved to movie rentals, and looks as though it can be expanded to anything in the near future. What's to stop Apple from selling you the newer versions of OS X online? In five years when everyone wants to upgrade to Puma or whatever else they end up calling it, you have the option of downloading the upgrade to your computer instead of having to go out and purchase any physical install media.
Does it really matter if the court rules that Psystar can do whatever they want with a copy of OS X once they already have it if Apple does everything that they possibly can in order to prevent Psystar from ever obtaining a copy of OS X?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Then Psystar buys them in the Apple store and tries on the "first sale principle".
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Then Apple requires you register your system serial number, and limits the number of copies they'll sell to you.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That'll work...
Considering that they sell out of Fry's and now Best Buy of all things, I don't think you realize how unviable that route will be for Apple. They need those other places because they can't afford to open up a bunch of those Apple stores to offset the loss of those venues.
Psystar is going to win (Score:5, Informative)
Psystar is going to win this as long as Apple sells their OS as a boxed product.
Insisting that Apple's separately sold software has to be run on Apple's hardware is an unenforceable and illegal tying arrangement under US antitrust law. This exact issue has come up before in 734 F.2d 1336 DIGIDYNE CORP. v. DATA GENERAL. [precydent.com]. The Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled: The issue presented for review is whether Data General's refusal to license its NOVA operating system software except to purchasers of its NOVA central processing units (CPUs) is an unlawful tying arrangement under section 1 of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. Sec. 1 (1976) and section 3 of the Clayton Act, 15 U.S.C. Sec. 14 (1976). We conclude that it is.
That's clear enough.
In antitrust tying cases, it's very unusual for a tying provision in a contract to be found legally enforceable. A more common situation is that some victim of a tying arrangement wants a court to compel the company in a monopoly position to do something, like sell them spare parts. [precydent.com] Even then, the tying company usually loses.
Question (Score:4, Interesting)
Why does Apple do things this way?
This is my own musing on the subject - MS did the smart thing in just making software and letting people install it on whoever's hardware. This allowed dozens of companies to create systems for Windows to run. i think that was a big part of what allowed Windows to become dominant (more than the anti-competitive stuff they did later). Wouldn't the MacOS run on more machines if there was competition in the market to build hardware to run it? If Psystar can build less expensive and less queefy looking boxes, Apple might lose money on hardware but sell more copies of the OS. Part of the fun of playing in Windows world is that i've got dozens of vendors that can sell me an assemble system, or i can buy the parts from hundreds of vendors/manufacturers and build it myself. That's another thing Apple seemed to miss.... The MS model created entirely new industries. Apple spawned a few companies that make things for hte iPod, but that's about it. From a previous /. conversation i learned that it is possible to home brew a mac, but it's very difficult and few people have the knowledge to do it.
Could someone more familiar with the history post on why they this is their business model?
Re:Futile (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Futile (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Futile (Score:5, Insightful)
It's an entirely different case. In the case you cited, Formula were distributing a hacked copy of the Apple II software without a license. In the Pystar case, Pystar are buying a copy of OS X from Apple for every computer they sell. Apple are getting their $129 for every sale.
The first case is pure copyright infringement - you can't just take a copy of someone else's copyright work and distribute (modified or unmodified) copies without falling foul of copyright law.
The second case is about violation of the EULA. If copyright law regards installing, modifying, and running a computer program as non-infringing use (which it ought to, since a computer program you can't do any of this with is pretty useless) then a EULA is invalid because you don't need any rights from the copyright holder than copyright law grants. More likely, given the broken state of IP law in the US, it will be found that you do need to agree to a license, but whether the terms imposed by Apple are legal remains to be seen.
In the worst case, Apple will win on the basis that their EULA prevents this. In the best case, Apple will lose because EULAs are not required for computer software and this will set a precedent that no EULA is valid (distribution licenses, like any Free Software license, would be unaffected since these grant you rights beyond what copyright law gives). In the middle case, the validity of EULAs in general will be upheld but the restrictions in question (no installing it on non-Apple hardware) will be deemed unreasonable and unenforceable.
Re:Futile (Score:5, Informative)
While your right that Psystar is violating the EULA and that its not clear if the EULA is enforceable I do not believe that is the core of Apples case (mostly because they don't want to find out that their EULA is unenforceable).
I believe they are suing because Psystar modified and redistributed the software updates from apple which is a violation of copyright law. Apple didn't sue them when they first shipped units with OS X installed they waited until they had distributed a modified software update for just this reason.
Re:Futile (Score:5, Informative)
Sure, it's the right of first sale. Can I re-sell a textbook that I've underlined, annotated, crossed words out, drawn diagrams, erased diagrams, etc..? Sure. It's up to the buyer to verify that he's buying what he thinks he's buying. If he wants a pristine unmodified copy of a book, he needs to verify that before he purchases. If the buyer asks me if it's unmodified, and I lie, then it's fraud. But if I say "yes it's been modified" then it's caveat emptor -- buyer beware...
Re:Futile (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple are getting their $129 for every sale.
But Apple has set that price point with the restriction of "must be run on Apple-branded hardware". Who's to say the price wouldn't be $478 for a non-Apple-hardware license? Think of it as an "upgrade price" for people who already bought something else from the manufacturer.
Apple has chosen not to release a version of the OS without the hardware restriction, and I'm open to debate about whether or not they should, or whether or not the EULA is enforceable. But it's disingenuous to suggest that $129 is fair compensation just because there is some version of the software license available for that price, particularly when the retail price of Windows is more like $250.
Re:Futile (Score:5, Insightful)
It's fair compensation because it's what Apple charges.
If they want more money, they should charge more.
A seller's intent does not enter into it. My local grocery store sells peaches for about 50 cents each, intending that they be eaten. If I buy a peach for 50 cents and instead use that peach in some mysterious way to create an invention which makes me millions of dollars, that in no way entitles the local grocery store to any more than their original 50 cents, nor does it make the situation in any way unfair to them.
Apple sets their price with the assumption that buyers will be using the product on Apple hardware. If that assumption gets broken, that's Apple's problem for making it, not the buyer's fault for breaking it.
Re:Futile (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? Because I can't help but suspect you would scream bloody murder at a company that was modifying and redistributing GPL software for money and not following the terms of the license. After all, they paid the requested price ($0) and now they should be able to do what they want with it, right? No, because the price was actually $0 + agreement to the terms of the license. Apple is not charging $130 for OSX. They are charging $130 + agreement to the terms of the license.
If you are not happy with the restrictions of the GPL license you are free to contact the copyright holder and, if they are agreeable, negotiate a different license. And if they are not agreeable you are SOL.
If you are not happy with the restrictions of the Apple license you are free to contact the copyright holder and, if they are agreeable, negotiate a different license. And if they are not agreeable you are SOL.
Re:Futile (Score:4, Insightful)
The GPL is not a license for how you can use the software, but rather a license for how you can further distribute the software. The law says you can't distribute copies without permission. The GPL is that permission. It's a completely different thing, despite the superficial similarities.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
As I understand it, they are not actually pirating OS X, they merely install retail copies of Apple OS on unblessed hardware, albeit breaking the TOS.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
No, they have to retry the Compaq case. And IBM lost that one.
Re:Futile (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I can't stand Apple anymore... (Score:4, Interesting)
They're kind of compelling, actually check this out one:
http://psystar.com/index.php?&option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=38&Itemid=72 [psystar.com]
Base Configuration
* Mac OS X Leopard preinstalled
* no keyboard, mouse, or monitor included
* 2.0GHz Intel Dual-Core Pentium 2.0GHz Processor
* 2GB of DDR2 800 memory
* PCI-Express nVidia GeForce 7200GS 256MB
* Dual Layer 20x DVD+/-RW SATA drive
* Gigabit Ethernet
* 4 rear USB Ports
$560...
The lowest-priced Mac I can find on http://store.apple.com/us [apple.com] is $599, and that's a Mini.
What am I missing?
Re:I can't stand Apple anymore... (Score:5, Funny)
Why, so he can throw it while screaming he's going to "fucking kill Apple"?
Oh... Steve Jobs... sorry.
Honest mistake.
Re:This company needs to be shut down (Score:5, Informative)
Re:About 20 years late (Score:4, Insightful)
Yep...and the big loser was IBM, who was trying to dominate the PC market with their hardware and an OS that they had neglected to control because they did not understand the importance of software. When people figured out that you did not have to buy a box from IBM to run DOS (or later, Windows), the PC became a mere commodity, prices dropped, and we all benefited (except for IBM, of course).
Apple saw this, and avoided IBM's fate by tying its OS closely to it hardware: Macs were built on Motorola CPUs, and had a proprietary architecture; MacOS would only run on that architecture. Apple had chosen not to go head with Microsoft as a software company, and continued to survive primarily as a hardware company. When someone tried to clone that hardware without permission (and permission wasn't forthcoming expect for a short interval when Apple flirted with licensing), Apple went after them for patent infringement.
However, all that changed when Apple adopted what is essentially the generic Wintel hardware architecture: now the only thing that prevents people from building boxes that run Apple's OS is the EULA under which the OS is sold. That is a much weaker position than Apple was in previously. You don't have to break any patent laws to build a "Mac Clone"—there's nothing proprietary about the hardware platform any more. (You do have to be careful to include only hardware that the OS supports, of course.) As others have pointed out, tying software to a particular brand of hardware may very well be in violation of US anti-trust law.
It also seems to me that the morality of Apple's position has been undermined. There is nothing special or innovative about today's Macs, except maybe the stylish cases. Yet, Apple sells these boxes for a considerable mark-up—and insists that we can only run their OS on boxes that carry their logo. In the PC business, at least, Apple has ceased being an innovator and is merely capitalizing on their historic prestige and slick marketing.
Question: I understand there are some provisions in the Apple OS that keep it from running on a generic PC platform. Can someone tell me exactly what those provisions are, and what has to be done to circumvent them? —No, I'm not planning to build myself a Mac, I'm just curious if getting around Apple's safeguards involves actions that might themselves break laws, for example re-writing any part of the OS could conceivably be a copyright infringement, right?