NZ, Sweden, Hungary Reflect OOXML Turmoil 146
A number of readers are sending news of the progress of Microsoft's attempt to get OOXML standardized by ISO. First off, New Zealand has voted "no" on the question. In Sweden, after the uproar following the "yes" vote there, a Microsoft representative has admitted buying Swedish OOXML votes (link in Swedish — follow the Read More... link below for some translated quotes). Computerworld has also picked up the Sweden story. Finally, from Hungary, reader ens0niq writes that the Minister of Economy and Transport has sent a letter to the General Director of the Hungarian Standards Institution requiring that the June 25 "yes" vote be re-done because of irregularities. Our correspondent notes, however, that many Microsoft partners have joined the voting committee in the meanwhile, so the result could be a replay of Sweden's experience.
Here are some quotes from the Swedish article translated by our anonymous correspondent.
-We have been informing our business partners about the process at SIS. What is going on, what the time plan is and that Microsoft thinks it is good if OOXML becomes a standard.
-In a letter from Microsoft, our business partners were informed that they were "expected" to participate in the SIS meeting and vote yes. As a compensation they would get "market benefits" and extra support in terms of Microsoft resources.
-This was a mistake and the letter was sent by a single employee on his own initiative without sanctions from Microsoft. He also quickly realised his mistake and tried to recall the letter.
-I can understand the critique about coup-like voting. But I claim the voters knew the issue well and had their own interest in OOXML becoming an ISO standard.
(Interviewer) -Has this harmed Microsoft?
-Time will tell. But almost all customers we have been talking to thinks it would be good if OOXML became an ISO standard.
As I sit next to my colleague... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:As I sit next to my colleague... (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:As I sit next to my colleague... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe if... (Score:2)
Until then, I'm calling this whole thing a farce - nobody other then Microsoft will ever be able to implement this "standard".
Sweden was a Phyrric victory (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes MS got the Swedish vote - but I think they will find it to be a Phyrric victory.
Re:Sweden was a Phyrric victory (Score:5, Insightful)
This one is simply devastating. I've made copies of all the articles and documentation- including the spin statement where they spin "It was still within the rules" for the Microsoft partners to join the ratifying body.
Now what I will do with those documents is send them to my board of directors. They will read them.
The result: I have the power when needed to say to Microsoft "Sorry, we like your products, but we can't support your business methods"
I've been reducing the Microsoft presence in my datacenter for a year or so and deploying Microsoft products only where they make sense. That's about 50% of the time, and usually on the desktop.
I don't have a lot of power to be the catalyst for change, and Microsoft isn't going anywhere (Thankfully, they make some good products). However, if I send the Microsoft rep packing enough times with negative comments about ethics... perhaps in a small way I can make things better.
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I agree though, making this available would be helpful to others as well.
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Love (Score:2, Interesting)
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I have already done so, in a private intranet forum... I've compared Microsoft's tactics to that of third-rate politicians in India. I'm sure when the top brass gets more and more details of this sordid episode, there will be zero resistance when I suggest that we simply avoid Active Directory, Exchange, Office and Sharepoint for our business systems.
Big deal (Score:2)
Re:Sweden was a Phyrric victory (Score:5, Interesting)
King Pyrrhus of Epirus fought a war against the Romans in 280BC. He won the war, but in the process lost most of his soldiers, commanders and friends.
The Romans lost more men in the battle, but had plenty of new men to take their place. Pyrrhus on the other had little left.
He famously said: "Another such victory over the Romans and we are undone."
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Thanks! (Score:2)
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own interest? (Score:5, Interesting)
If this is true, then why
1) does MS tell their partners in the letter on which arguments for OOMXL they should use? MS even advises their partners to not use "too technical" arguments (are there "technical" arguments in favour of OOMXL anyway??).
2) does MS tell their partners to go to one or two meetings AFTER the voting to prove they are not only in it for this single vote?
The recalled letter (Score:3, Funny)
<w:ignoreElements w:val="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/ooxml/s p2/employee/curtain"/>
<w:rPr>
<w:rStyle w:val='rogue'/>
</w:rPr>
<w:t>Hey, guys! Vote yes on our standard and we'll send you some free T-shirts and mugs!</w:t>
</w:r>
Oops minor correction (Score:2)
<w:ignoreElements w:val="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/ooxml/s p2/employee/curtain"/>
<w:rPr>
<w:rStyle w:val='rogue'/>
</w:rPr>
<w:t>Hey,</w:t>
<w:ignoreElements w:val="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/ooxml/s p2/employee/curtain"/>
<w:rPr
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vote "like microsoft 1998"
Have they no shame or ambition? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Not all countries are like America (Score:3, Informative)
The BBC has a nice page of links to key reports [bbc.co.uk] regarding how various countries and politicians around the world held 'different' cultural values in the Oil-For-Food scandal.
Re:Not all countries are like America (Score:5, Insightful)
If you bribe someone in a foreign country, it is called graft/corruption/bribery/etc and is a crime.
If you do that in America, it is called 'lobbying' and is as American as apple pie. If only those corrupt foreigners stop calling it bribery and call it lobbying, the pure as milk American companies would not have to engage in this crime.
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While at it, it will be worthwhile to look if MSFT did this somewhere under the table. This will allow applying USA laws on graft abroad.
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Um, what do you think campaign contributions are ? Seen from the outside, the US appears extremely corrupted to me.
Too many people love Microsoft (Score:2)
You would be right if they came from the outside. Because governments are limited to national boundries, so votes and contributions are to come from citizens. But companies are global, they market globally and are responsible globally, so a country may decide to participate with any company they chooose, and ban any company they choose. Microsoft doesn't get banned because too many people lov
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No, it means that their cultures and institutions are fundamentally corrupt.
And everyone who agrees should do something (Score:5, Insightful)
It's easy to bemoan the fact that there's this large corporation with a virtual monopoly on desktop operating systems and office tools. The wailing and gnashing of teeth across slashdot about this is almost ceaseless.
My suggestion (and something I'm doing myself) is to think of ways to encourage people to move away from Microsoft products. If you "support" family and friends, recommend Firefox if they ask you about security. Encourage someone to try out a live CD of Ubuntu. If you know someone who is thinking about buying a new computer who is considering a Mac, provide arguments in favor and offer support.
I've moved every computer I own (five) off Windows. My wife and I both have Mac laptops (good riddance to that Dell crap), our HTPC is a mini, our server and the PC in our garage are running Ubuntu. When my sister-in-law wanted a Mac, I encouraged her husband to get her one, and offered to her with support (he's a Windows guy). When my dad asked about internet security problems, I pointed him to Firefox and gently suggested that IE/Windows isn't the best choice.
I'm not suggesting (as some here do) that you should be ramming Open Source or a non-Windows OS down someone's throat. I wouldn't ever advocate being pushy about it, since you catch more flies with honey... but when it comes up (and for those of us who are "support" for family and friends, that's pretty often) it never hurts to gently, subtly point out alternatives to MS. If every geek who villifies MS on slashdot does their small bit, we can eventually make a difference.
Just my $.02
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Why should Microsoft bother to hide its corruption? It has never been punished and it never will be.
Microsoft gets to eat their cake, and keep it too! (Score:4, Funny)
Microsizzle (Score:2)
You can keep them in line be beating them ugly up or giving them drugs.
Microsoft chooses to maintain them getting fucked again and again so Microsoft can reap the profit.
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Let me get it out of my system... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, I know, nothing new here. Just needed to vent
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Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean, what incentive to the employees now have to do the right things? Well, if there's going to be blame, you're literally on your own, and always have been. If there's a success, it's definitely not your success.
Is it me, or is there a shift towards a "something wrong? blame the individual!"-style behaviour?
B.
Scapegoat (Score:5, Insightful)
Had it been a real rogue employee that had sent those letters then we'd be hearing he/she had been fired instantly - since this is effectively fraud/falsification in the company's name. We haven't seen any such firing, hence it must be supported from higher above.
The problem for Microsoft is how much publicity this story got. Apparently more than they had anticipated.
Re: Agency theory? (Score:2)
(See? Who's supposed to pay that? That means at least TWO employees... and counting.)
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Last I knew, this guy sent the letter as official correspondence, and that "official correspondence represents the company". I don't know how they could use the "single employee" theory, because Accounting doesn't give *me* $50,000 to spend as I please without authorization.
(See? Who's supposed to pay that? That means at least TWO employees... and counting.)
The reports indicated that Microsoft didn't cut a check for entry fees. Instead it promised resources and future concessions to compensate for each company cutting a check. That is something One individual could do in a Corporation the size of Microsoft.
Now that we have that out of the way.... Of course it was a supported corporate move. What's more, it's part of a global strategy, the same thing was/is occurring in other markets, so they actually have a rogue salesman IN EACH MARKET
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I call that an incentive to refuse doing unethical stuff :-)
Because the employees now know that M$ will not stand behind them if they do the company's dirty work and get caught. Even if (presumably) management told them to do it.
On the other hand, maybe the "single employee on his own initiative
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I've been in the SW industry for nearly ten years and I saw a lot of success of visionary PHB, but never heard of any collective success.
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It's more insulting to the community than the fact that Microsoft was buying votes.
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Human nature. "Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan" (paraphrased, forget who said it, too lazy to look up).
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This isn't just a corporate phenomenon. Just look at sports. Ever heard of we won, they lost? When your team win, it's "we won". When your team lose, its "they lost". People like to associate themselves with the winners and distance themselves from the losers.
A question? why does this matter? (Score:2, Interesting)
What I am asking is this: let's assume that Microsoft spends major bucks to get their OOXML stuff accepted in a few different countries through a standards committee, but then the standard is proven to NOT be open -- as is being shown by work already in progress -- but that the lack of openness and the bad press g
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Re:A question? why does this matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
Political bodies are starting to pass laws requiring that official documents be published in an open format. If Microsoft doesn't rush their format through standardization, these governments will start moving to ODF. Once the ship of state starts moving, it is very difficult to stop or turn. When the ship of state moves in the ODF direction, a huge portion of the economy, every vendor or contractor supply that government, will move with it. The government's power to set standards is that powerful. For an example, just try to find a new CRT monitor that isn't Energy Start compliant.
If this huge section of the market moves to ODF, Microsoft will no longer have the ability to lock users into MS-Office and force upgrades. Now if you open a DOC file in OpenOffice and it doesn't look right, it is OpenOffice's fault. Once there are several vendors selling ODF solution, resolution of fault will fall back to does it comply with the standard. User's have been forced to pay for the latest releases of MS-Office just to remain compatible with the latest format tweaks (that a partner may be using). MS has long been suspected of making gratuitous changes to the format just to force users to buy a new version. They won't be able to tweak an open and published standard, users won't be forced into gratuitous 'upgrades'. The market power and the cash cow will both disappear very quickly.
The countries need to vote 'no' as you state, but they don't have to do it in a hurry. A delayed approval will allow many of the laws to go into effect and start turning the ship of state. Each day the approval is delayed is another day of erosion of the DOC file format.
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I think this is a good question, and one that I've pondered as well. Considering the effort Microsoft is putting behind it they obviously have their reasons and I suspect a big one is just having the marketing bullet point saying their office software adheres to ISO standards. There are likely many governments and even big business customers that require their vendors to adhere to ISO standards. By pushing their proprietary garble through as a standard they can continue with
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1. What the hell is OOXML?
2. What kind of voting process?
3. Erh... make a memo, I read it later.
In other words, nobody outside of IT will know about it. All they will know is that this is an ISO standard. And as soon as they hear ISO standard, they don't care anymore what it is, how technically unfit it is or how it was cheated into existance. It's an IS
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You're puzzled because you assume that Microsoft gives a shit about standards. Th
Exactly! (Score:3, Insightful)
Was he fired? (Score:2, Interesting)
Was this employee fired?
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It is highly unlikely. In Sweden, you'd have to commit repeated gross negligence for the employer to be able to fire you, and then it is usually with a three months advance notice. You cannot have an employee fired and have the guards escort him out the same day as you can in the US.
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If it is sufficiently gross, a single offense is enough. It happened to one of my colleagues, although not for sending an e-mail but rather getting drunk at the company barbecue and assaulting a coworker with an empty beer bottle. And Arbetsdomstolen has upheld firings for something as trivial as stealing a roll of toilet paper from the employer.
I am glad for Hungary... (Score:2)
I should disclose that I am half hungarian.
Now I hope the other countries where MS did their dirty deeds to get OOXML ISO-standardized, will have an epifany of sorts and cancel the fraudolent voting results.
Aren't they missing something? (Score:2)
Surely the whole point of standards, be they national or international, is that they are not allowed to depend on encumbered "intellectual property". So if OOXML is adopted as an ISO standard, then all the necessary patents will have to be annulled!
Requiring a person to pay patent royalties to one person or corporation merely in order to comply with the law of the land is extortion, plain and simple.
Are you really trying to apply logic here? (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, that's the point. However, if it becomes a standard anyway, that doesn't mean that after the fact MS is going to be voiding any patents! (The only "hope" would be if it were necessary to void the patents in order to get standards acceptance.)
Remember th
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IANAL (Score:2)
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That's just plain wrong. MPEG is an ISO working group, and their standards are shock-full of patented technologies.
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Wrong way round: regulations imposed by a sovereign government ("laws" concerning intellectual property) supersede regulations imposed by the ISO ("standards"). If the ISO and IP law collide, IP law wins.
Better tag: Business as usual (Score:3)
It's mildy amusing to hear the feigned shock and dismay when Microsoft pulls their antics. At this point, behavior of this stripe should the expected outcome of any situation where Microsoft is involved. Whatever they may have done right in the past, for the last seven or eight years they've been heading down a path that makes it clear they'll do anything to crush competition (except actually produce a better product)
We all know what they're going to do before they even get their PR machine going. One hint: it won't be the right thing.
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Why even vote on it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Check list for OOXML (Score:5, Insightful)
Encumbered by patents and other "intellectual property"? Check.
Unimplementable without 500 man-years of effort and a whole lot of inside knowledge? Check.
You've got to hand it to Microsoft, this is brilliant stuff. It's just as much of a lock-in as the old binary data ever was but they've got ISO voting to make it a new standard. It's amazing what a few free lunches can buy.
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Definitely, and what really kills me (and you should add this to the checklist) is that the proposition includes workarounds for potential issues that Microsoft has forseen.
For example, there is some issue with the way the old M$ date format would port over to OOXML. So the proposed
Where is the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act? (Score:2, Interesting)
You have governments interested and 'market subsidies'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Pract ices_Act [wikipedia.org]
Ban the new members! (Score:3, Insightful)
single employee sent letters (Score:2, Funny)
This was a mistake and the letter was sent by a certain chair-throwing employee on his own initiative "
Standard practice (Score:2)
Full Translation (Score:3, Informative)
------------
Microsoft admits voting coup at SIS
Microsoft admits that the company is behind the voting coup at SIS where the document format OOXML became proposed as a new standard.
- Mistakes have been committed on our part, says Klas Hammar, Microsoft.
The majority of the 23 companies that showed up at the institute of standards SIS at the last minute to vote yes on making Microsoft's document format OOXML an ISO standard did so at the request of Microsoft.
- We have continuously informed our partners about the SIS process. What is happening, what the timeline looks like and that Microsoft thinks it is good if OOXML becomes a standard, says Klas Hammar, business unit director at Microsoft.
- In a letter from Microsoft partners have been told that they were "expected" to participate in the ISI meeting and vote yes. As compensation they would receive "market assistance" and "additional support in the form of Microsoft resources".
Is this ethically defensible?
- This was a mistake and the letter was sent out by a single employee completely on his own initiative without any sanction whatsoever from Microsoft. He also quickly realized his mistake and tried to recall the letter, says Klas Hammar.
- If the person promises "market assistance" and other things he must supposedly have authority for such a promise. Was he a director of some kind and therefore in the position to take such a decision by himself?
- He was not a director and Microsoft has not sanctioned any such promises, says Klas Hammar.
- Have you made any more mistakes in this issue?
- Time will have to tell, says Klas Hammar.
- Do you understand the critique about "voting coup"?
- I can understand the critique about voting ways in a coup-like way. But I maintain that those who voted were well informed in the question and have their own interests in making OOXML an ISO standard, says Klas Hammar.
- Is it really ethic to act as you have and gather "voting cattle" to SIS?
- It has been a process where both those who have been for and against OOXML have engaged themselves very hard and mobilized their respective partners. And according to SIS there has been tactics from all sides, says Klas Hammar.
Microsoft should have an interest in standardization work being conducted in a good and credible way. Do you consider the current SIS rules for participation in a work group to be unfortunate?
- I am not knowledgeable enough in standardization to be able to comment on how a standardization work should be done, says Klas Hammar.
- Has this hurt Microsoft?
- Time will have to tell. But almost all customers we have spoken to think it is good if OOXML becomes an ISO standard, says Klas Hammar.
Norway, too - sort of. (Score:4, Informative)
Standard Norge
for the attention of JCT-1 SC34 committee
Declaration in support of ISO acceptance of Open XML
I have been made aware that Norway is going to vote on the ECMA-standard Open XML some time in 2007, and that the Norwegian position in the matter will be decided in the Norwegian ISO committee (JCT-1 SC34) in Standard Norge. In this connection we feel that it is important that Standard Norge has knowledge of the position to this standard in the undersigned's activity.
By signing this declaration we want to point out the following to Standard Norge:
We base this assertion on the following considerations:
Therefore we wish, hereby, to express our full support for Open XML as an ISO standard.
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Microsoft statement on the Swedish vote 'buying' (Score:2, Informative)
This was posted by Microsoft's Jason Matusow yesterday:
Matusow's Blog: Open XML - The Vote in Sweden [msdn.com]
Re:Microsoft statement on the Swedish vote 'buying (Score:2)
Re:Microsoft statement on the Swedish vote 'buying (Score:2)
Quite frankly, it brings ISO into disrepute if representatives of either side rush people in like this. Clearly the rules should be modified. I'd say a year's membership ought to be required before any vote.
And it still doesn't change the fact that OOXML is an utterly useless standard whose only purpose is to give Microsoft the aura of ISO while still maintaining a document format that no one but them (or those that know Redmond's secret handshake) could ever actually
For "benefits", read "cash" (Score:5, Informative)
Eivind.
There are days... (Score:2)
Single emplyee sending letters? (Score:2)
I wonder if this single employee sent the same letter to companies in the other countries where the same thing happened?
"Open" or "OPEN" is not the generic term "open". (Score:2)
Correctly stated it is simply an "Industry Standard", not "Open".
By accepted technologist and L/FOSS convention dating back to the 1980's the usage of the term "Open" is conceptually reserved to products/ideas... that closely follow the "Public Property" [GPL, "Open Content", "Open Standards"
If you want to use a two word phrase, then the correct phrase for a few decades now has been and
FYI: "Open" or "OPEN" is not the generic term open (Score:2)
Is capitalism an economic or social model?
Is communism a social or economic model?
New World Order Economics appears (to me) to be a seriously flawed social model with feudal economics value.
"Industry Standard" is correct (you agreed!), M$ Marketeer-spin converts "MS Office Industry[OEM/OSD] XML (OIXML)" into "MS Office Open XML (OOXML)".
The only possible reason (I think) for this "M$ Marketeer-spin" is to perpetrate an "Open-Fraud" on a global market scale, dilute the financial clout that the term "
JUST IN: Sweden will abstain (Score:5, Informative)
According to the press release, the reason for the decision was a technicality (that information suggested that one of the members had voted twice).
- Well, be that as it may, say I, but perhaps the uproar against the decision both in Sweden and internationally had something to do with. In any case, it sounds like a very fortunate technicality. ;)
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SIS press release translated (Score:3, Informative)
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More than one? 20! (Score:3, Interesting)
How about MS sweden making almost 20 votes, most by proxy? that is also covered by that translated line.
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Hmm. To me, it sounds like they're weasling their way out of a fuck up. It's sort of like a burglar getting caught and saying: ah, yeah, I just realized what I was doing is bad, so, yeah, I promise not to sell any of the stuff I took.
Let's face it. The whole thing was wrong. They know it. Enough members of
Same on other countries ... and nobody do anything (Score:2, Interesting)
the "all customers"??? (Score:2)
Reading between lines. Who are the "all customers" of Microsoft who think it would be "good"?? (*)
Does M$ still sell anything directly? I doubt it.
That leaves us with only option: the "customers" are partners/channel partners of M$ who do real deals selling hardware and OEMs. Shortly - partners.
Now, the phrase "almost all [snip]partners[/snap] w
Not really (Score:3)
Near as I can tell, NOT A ONE. Welcome to the global economy.