The Hybrid Scooter 337
anthemaniac writes "Hybrid cars are all the rage. Now comes a hybrid scooter. It gets beyond ethanol and lots of batteries, though, running on a hydrogen fuel cell that charges a battery. During braking, energy is also harnessed. All this and speedy too, says inventor Crijn Bouman of Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands. For now, however, the prototype lacks one crucial component: the hydrogen fuel cell! It's coming, Bouman says. Yes, just like $5/gal gas..."
hahaha (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally, I think the sooner it arrives, the sooner my fellow Americans will quit buying SUVs.
Re:hahaha (Score:3, Funny)
And the more I have to pay to fuel my . .
KFG
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:2, Informative)
Took my friend George three days to die. I got away with a broken collarbone, because I didn't get hit head on at 90 mph. Maybe 'cause the driver wasn't drunk, just an asshole.
On the other hand my next door neighbor went for a drive and didn't make it home alive. There was no other car even involved in the accident. No one knows why it happened. Wasn't drunk, doesn't appear to have been speeding. No skidmarks. Not a heart attack. Jus
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:2, Offtopic)
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:4, Informative)
You can disagree with the site, but the sources are another matter entirely. It's something to think about next time you see a jacked-up SUV with a super reenforced "brush guard" steel bar running across the front grille blowing through another STOP sign.
link [suv.org]
10. Traffic Safety Facts 1996: A Compilation of Motor Vehicle Crash Data from the Fatality Analysis Reporting System and the General Estimates System. DOT HS 808 649, Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Transportation; National Highway Traffic Safety Administration; National Center for Statistics and Analysis, December, 1997. Chapter 3. page 64. table 37.
11. The Insurance Institute For Highway Safety - Feb.98 study and Nauss , Donald. April 5 1998. "Detroit Circles the Trucks; The big three defend sport-utilities and other hot sellers against an assault by regulators and environmentalists." Los Angeles Times. SectionD: Page 1.
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:3, Insightful)
Americans have a kind of passive view of safety: you put massive defenses around you and you will be safe. It's the Maginot Line theory. The SUV is the perfect example of this. Statistically it does nothing for the sa
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:3, Informative)
Not to be argumentative, but back in the day, most sports cars were 4-bangers. All of the original cheap British sports cars in the 50's and early 60's were 4-bangers, as were all early Porsches until the 911. Even now, many sports cars employ 4-cylinder motors (including the Mazda Miata, Toyota MR-Spyder, and Honda S2000). In fact, manufacturers trying to build more eco-friendly cars are embracing the philosophy of e
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:4, Insightful)
Thankfully we live in a capitalist society, where only one type of person drives a SUV:
Those that both WANT to drive them and can pay for them.
Let gas prices change the equilibrium and reduce the number on the road...
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:3, Informative)
Yeah, but, European gas has always been sky high. Isn't most of that $8-9/gal over there taxes?
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:3, Funny)
No really, this happened to my mom when she was younger. She just broke her leg, but lots of other people on that bus died.
If you're that worried about safety, take the train!
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:3, Funny)
I live in Japan, so I do. I've never even bothered to have my licence converted into a Japanese one; trains, subways and bicycles take me wherever I need to go.
Of course, a Japanese train is always at risk of being attacked by Godzilla; I guess the only safe choice is to build my own MechaZilla which should widthstand the ravages of even the most determined bad actor in a rubber suit. ^_^
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:2)
Or sarin gas. This is like rock/paper/scissors. Something's always going to destroy the next choice.
Re:SUV-bike collision? (Score:2)
But what happens if an oil tanker crashes into the train? Since we all know boats can drive on land from watching Speed 2.
If you're that worried about safety, take a 650,000 ton oil tanker!
Re:hahaha (Score:2)
Converted from swedish currency and metric units, 95 octane petrol costs 6.47 USD per gallon. 98 octane would run you a whopping 6.62 USD. And note that the prices have dropped recently.
Not even funny anymore (Score:4, Interesting)
So does Finland and many other nations around the world.
I always found it rather amusing the way people in the US bitched about "high" fuel prices.
BOO HOO.
This morning here in Tampere,Finland the price was 1.42 EUR/l for 95 octane (6.843 USD/gal for SI-unit impaired).
This about average for the whole of Finland.
Combine this with the fact that due to idiotic taxation Finland has the oldest cars in EU. (Not counting former soviet bloc).
And cold winters. And large distances. Then you will have some understanding of how much it sucks to have these fuel prices.
Stop complaining until your gasoline prices are as high as this.
Although when the US has $6 gas we will probably have to pay 12.
What is the price of fuel ethanol again?
Within the next year fuel ethanol will be cheaper than gasoline almost everywhere. If current trends continue.
They probably will not continue due to increased use of ethanol.
But within 5 years ethanol will the fuel of choice.
And until they can manufacture hydrogen fuel cells and hydrogen in sufficient quantities for sufficient prices I don't imagine that this will change. Maybe in the next 20 years. Maybe by then we will have fusion reactors. (Yeah right!!)
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:2, Informative)
I always found it rather amusing the way people in the US bitched about "high" fuel prices.
BOO HOO.
This morning here in Tampere,Finland the price was 1.42 EUR/l for 95 octane (6.843 USD/gal for SI-unit impaired).
Just FYI, in The Netherlands 95 octane already goes for over 1.50 EUR/litre. A full tank for my car (which needs 98 octane) costs almost 70 EUR
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:2, Interesting)
Granted, gas is cheaper in the US than in many other places in the world, but even with relatively lower gas prices, I think that the price of gas going up effects Americans more than people in a lot of other countries. Part of it is because a lot of people in the US buy SUVs and
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:5, Insightful)
On my trips to the US I've been amazed to find that there aren't any pedestrian walkways (pavement to us UK chaps, and I think "sidewalk" is what you US fellows call them). Because of the ubiquitous car (and that perhaps because of the cheap petrol) there is no (useful) public transport, and because there is no public transport, everyone uses the car, so why build cycle lanes or sidewalks, or foot-bridges over highways.
It's a bit of a catch-22. The problem is that the petrol is going to run out at some point - the light at the end of the tunnel isn't some unobtanium that's gonna replace petrol, it's a runaway train hurtling towards us.
But it's not a vote winner. Do you want $2 on a gallon of gas to put towards finding an alternative? Hell No! No Gov, local or otherwise, is going to impose that tax because they won't get re-elected, and when the problem does hit they'll all be nicely retired from the fray, so why bother now - right?
What we need is some government with some backbone to impose the tax, to encourage (nay, fund!) the research. There'd be a bunch of bleating about it now, but in 20, 30, 50 years, it'll sure be nice to realise we're ahead of the curve rather than sitting in the dark in our houses that we can no longer afford to cool in the summer or heat in the winter.
But then I was always a "do my homework as soon as I got it" sort of person, rather than the "stay up late the night before" chap.
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:2)
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:3, Interesting)
backbone = balls
I live in the USA, and I welcome a higher gas tax and higher gas prices, so long as that money is going to research and road maintenance instead of lining someone's pockets. Even though higher gas prices aren't hurting me substantially, I miss the days when $10 (USD) would get me 330 miles.
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:2)
Now believe it or not, I'm all for alternative fuels and whatnot. I just don't think that saddling commuters with punative taxes (which is what your suggestion essentially boils down to) is the way to get there.
Frankly, I can't understand why third-world and developing countries can have cars that run on 100% ethanol, yet we in the States can't. Well, I do.... but it still doesn't make any practical sense
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously. We pay $3/gallon of gas cos our government makes it that way. I think it's kind of annoying. I'll take the $6-12/Gal it takes to drill and make the stuff, and you can use that subsidy money to pay for research into new technologies (which will then be lapped up by gas-price-exhausted citizens).
Meanwhile, the millisecond US citizens have $6/Gallon gas, you'll see a huge surge in ethanol conversion. The changes to a car are mostly
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Buy a small car. (appologies for this, but I think in metric) 400 miles a week is 640kms. Pleanty of small cars can get 7 litres per 100kms. Thats about 45 litres a week. If your petrol is $3 a gallon, 3.8 litres to the gallon, 45/3.8*$3 is only $36 a week, not $100. Which is only 5% of you income before paycheck. A Prius can get 4.5l/100kms ($22 a week, 1.5% of your income). I just realised that to be spending $100 a week on petrol you car must be getting 21 l/100km which
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:4, Informative)
It's a 9 hour drive to the next largest population centre of 200,000 people. Forget rail/bus/air transport.
The most popular large sedans in Australia have 6 cylinder engines that get about 27-30mpg highway. V8's are becoming, well, not 'rare', but they're a lot less visible than they used to be. While there's plenty of large cars and 4WDs, but theres none so large as what I've seen in the states as 'common'. For example, there's one (1) F350 truck in my town of 25,000 people.
You're going to have to adapt. Your cars will shrink, they'll become more fuel-efficient and their total horsepower will reduce. But saying that, you'll still be driving them everywhere for a long time yet.
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:2, Informative)
However most of these guys who live outside the US would never learn the issues we are facing.
In Keene, NH for instance (which is a very small town), walking from local mall to the local Holiday Inn/mini-Walmart takes 45 mins. to 1 hour. By the local Monadnock Taxi it would cost $5.00 to cover the distance.
To those of you outside US, stop complaining about Gas prices. If you live in US, the so-called cheap Gas eats up a lot of money due to the
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:2, Insightful)
walking from local mall to the local Holiday Inn/mini-Walmart takes 45 mins
So build your buildings closer together.
Here in Europe, living in the centre of the city, within walking distance of everything, is becoming more and more popular. As transport becomes more expensive, the suburbs will wither and die.
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:2)
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:2)
Don't forget to convert your octane too, as we use a different octane calculation in the USA. [wikipedia.org] Your 95 octane is 87 here.
I live in the USA, and I'm waiting for the diesel [f1engineering.com] motorcycle [m1030.com] to become available, at a more reasonable price.
Scooters are great if you live in a small city, but even in a city like New York where scooters have the potential to be practical, most other traffic (especiall
Re:Not even funny anymore (Score:2)
To see whether the bitching is justified, you should look at the structure of our economies. We are used to cheap fuel and expensive healthcare (like $500/month/person for good health insurance), you are used to the opposite. If we could have free healthcare, $5 gas wouldn't be a problem. Realistically, $5/gallon gas probably won't be a hardship for /.'ers, who are somewhat educated (hey, I said 'somewhat') and pr
nobody's going to stop buying SUVs (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:nobody's going to stop buying SUVs (Score:5, Funny)
Since most of the kinetic energy from the other car will remain as forward momentum, your car "just" has to absorb a bit of energy, and you do have seat belts and airbags to make you even safer.
You end up with two nice effects:
1) SUV crashes, takes most of the brunt and hopefully explodes in a nice fireball.
2) SUV driver might end up severely injured or dead along with their passengers
Enough of those crashes, and people will start shunning the crappy SUV's
Re:nobody's going to stop buying SUVs (Score:3, Interesting)
Yukon vs Accord head-on [priuschat.com]
Mustang side swipes an Explorer [forbes.com]
And from the archives, the Gladwell article about SUVs: the psychology, history, and numbers:
http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html [gladwell.com]
Personally, I'm glad people drive SUVs. It's like the stupid-tax they call the lottery, but here it's like watching Darwinism in high-chairs action.
Re:nobody's going to stop buying SUVs (Score:3, Insightful)
the people who say that they need an SUV because they have kids is simply ignoring the fact that there is a much better vehicle out there for the purpose that they simply don't like (usually because i
SUVs (Score:2)
Re:nobody's going to stop buying SUVs (Score:5, Informative)
SUVs don't make you safe, it only makes you bigger and gives you more kinetic energy to get rid of. Sure, it'll trump a 1980s Ford Escort, but that's not because an SUV is safe, it's because the Escort is shitty. http://www.euroncap.com/ [euroncap.com] runs a good testing program and you might note that a Toyota Prius gets a better safety rating than a Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Re:nobody's going to stop buying SUVs (Score:4, Informative)
Actually there have been a lot of studies that have shown the opposite, for example have a look at the chart on page three of this pdf. [lbl.gov] You'll see that in this study the amount of deaths of the primary driver per million sold is higher in SUV's than large cars, midsize cars, minivans and imported luxury cars. Compact & subcompact are worse for the primary driver - obviously tin cans with a motor don't handle accidents well! Pickup trucks are the second worst and I'm suprised they're not more similar to SUV's. The worst is sports cars, possibly a combination of the historically bad handling of american sports cars and the fact that 150-200mph on a suburban road is usualy a bad idea!
Re:nobody's going to stop buying SUVs (Score:3, Funny)
Of course, this is totally unrealistic. But it annoys me when most of the bad drivers I see are either in giant trucks or large "granny" cars. I'd even say all people o
Re:hahaha (Score:3, Informative)
Gas (Score:3, Informative)
There's no reason gas has to reach $5/gal. If America (and yes, it pretty much HAS to be America that leads here, no one else has that rare combination of extensive agricultural, vast industrial power, and a free market that's willing to work with the government on super-projects) were to get really serious about producing biopetrol and biodiesel, as well as radically scaling up its ethanol production capacity, this could be averted. America is a fantastic chunk of land for producing absolutely INCREDIBLE
Re:Gas (Score:2, Informative)
It does not [petrotec.de] HAVE [www.iwr.de] to be the US that leads [cleanairnet.org] in Biodiesel. [biodiesel.de]
Re:hahaha (Score:2)
Further, we can simpl
Re:hahaha (Score:2)
Here in the UK the price is now about £1 per litre. That translates to $7 per US gallon. This price has risen by about 5p per litre in the last month thanks chiefly to our good friends in Israel.
vaporware (Score:2)
best guess of a drowsy mind. (Score:5, Informative)
My best guess is that the Li battery shouldnt need to be all that big (capacity wise), if your running a fuel cell then you already have a very efficient way of making electricity on demand, so there is less need to store the energy in the Li batteries. It could allow for quick bursts of speed, and a reasonable choice for regenerative braking.
Storm
Re:best guess of a drowsy mind. (Score:2)
The fuel cell would only need two states on and off. On, during acceleration and when the battery is low on charge and, off, when enegery demand is low and the battery is nearly fully charged. This way you could get
Re:best guess of a drowsy mind. (Score:2)
I ride a pushbike to work but I have seen people riding those small electric scooters in traffic and frankly it would scare me. On my bike I can accelerate and brake faster than anything with an engine. The scooter with its small engine and wheels just can't keep up in the same way. I think it would be a hazard on roads with stop-start traffic.
Re:vaporware (Score:2)
But wait! It gets better!
A hydrogen fuel cell is very unlike a reciprocating engine in that it doesn't NEED to generate constant power. The very idea of a fuel cell, in fact, is that the energy is able to be drawn on demand like a battery, but with the greater energy density of a fuel-based engine.
In plain english, battery backup for a fuel cell would be redundant. All it would do is add extra weight that reduces the number of miles per gallon!
Re:vaporware (Score:3, Insightful)
Okay, I know next to nothing about fuel cells, but charging them involves electrolysis or some other non-trivial process, yes? So you need a battery if you're going to take advantage of the energy to be gained back from stopping and such.
Re:vaporware (Score:2)
Re:vaporware (Score:2)
No. You fill them with fuel. Like at a gas station.
Re:vaporware (Score:2)
Right, but the fuel must be created somehow-- like electrolysis. What I'm saying is that-- as far as I know-- you can't simply generate it from the energy recovered from braking. (Well, presumably you can, but you wouldn't want to.) This is a good reason to have a battery.
Re:vaporware (Score:2, Informative)
I think the battery is being used because they haven't gotten around ordering a hydrogen fuel cell from Hydrocell [hydrocell.fi] yet :)
--js/fi--
Hybrid? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hybrid? (Score:2)
Must something have two physically separated engines to be considered a hybrid? I thought the term was used to describe multiple energy sources.
Re:Hybrid? (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_car#Series [wikipedia.org]
Re:Hybrid? (Score:2)
the check's in the mail... (Score:3, Funny)
Anyone want to bet that California will see $5/gal gas within 12 months?
I'll see your hummer and raise you my Corola...
-michael
Re:the check's in the mail... (Score:2)
Funny? I've lived in Cali for 2 years and the price of gas has gone up at least over a dollar a gallon. Okay, $5 may not happen in 12 months without a few events to spark it, but it's easy to picture.
$5 a gallon? (Score:2)
Re:$5 a gallon? (Score:3, Interesting)
Before it was officially launched, the Euro was called the ECU (European Currency Unit). The ECU was not a real currency, it was (oversimplification warning) a weighted average of the currencies of the members of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism. When the Euro was introduced, it was issued at a 1:1 exchange rate with the ECU (i.e. the initial exchange rate with any existing currency and the Euro was the same as that currency with the ECU; you couldn't actuall
I have a hybrid scooter (Score:3, Insightful)
Scooter? (Score:2, Troll)
Second, I'm more interested in GM's next generation MY2008 GMT-900 full-size SUV platform [auto123.com] (Tahoe, Suburban, Yukon, Yukon XL, Escalade, Escalade EXT): it will have a full/strong hybrid option, powered by both a 5.3L Vortec V8 featuring Displacement on Demand/Active Fuel Management, which can disable 2, 4, or 6 of the 8 cylinders as necessary, two 30kW electric motors and a continuously variable
Re:Scooter? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Scooter? (Score:2, Informative)
Do you consider these ridiculous:
1/ Weight.
2/ Drag.
Regardless of how efficient your propulsion system, or how friendly the fuel and byproducts of making and running it are, the added weight and drag of an SUV means that more energy is required to run it.
Unless of course your energy source is charged from nothing but the
Re:Scooter? (Score:2)
Re:Scooter? (Score:3, Insightful)
And that's not even getting into the additional CO2 emissions and energy-independence arguments.
Being responsible is being responsible. Period.
All that tech and STILL only 30mpg??! (Score:3, Insightful)
Detroit innovation? (Score:2)
--
The usual disclaimers apply.
Globalization at work. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll really start worrying when I can't afford gas for my moped.
Re:Globalization at work. (Score:3, Funny)
-Eric
At long last, (Score:2)
Go electric (Score:2, Informative)
Electric bikes are spreading quickly since they do not require driver license and speed up the commuting. Their price make them affordable for a wide range of Chinese (and expats).
You get between 10 to 20 miles of autonomy depending of the brand/model which is good enough for most of the daily commuters and you still have the pedals in case of shortage of power.
Re:Go electric (Score:5, Interesting)
They're everywhere in Japan as well, especially the "secondary motor" bicycle kind, where you still pedal and the motor gives you extra help for inclines or headwinds. They extend the range, you don't get sweaty, and they're very cheap to buy and run - the drive system doesn't actually need to be able to push the bike all by itself afer all, so the whole package is small and light.
Re:Go electric (Score:2)
be able to use it for commuting short distances but its really only a toy as it runs out
of power after only a few miles and it is hopeless on any hills of more than a few degrees incline. And of course once the power runs out you have to push it. An electric bicycle however seems like a good idea.
Re:Go electric (Score:2)
The e-bike is great. I love mine. However, it's not a solution to all problems. Here are the problems that I see with e-bikes in China:
Hydrogen economy (Score:5, Insightful)
Then the dependence on foreign oil and its associated conflicts would have decreased significantly. And since the US is still the world's largest economy, this would have had a domino effect throughout the rest of the world, if only because of the economies of scale would be taken care of.
I know this is a naive way of looking at the issue, but it was still a missed opportunity. And it will keep happening untill there are no other alternatives. The oil companies are generating HUGE proffits due to high oil prices and our dependence on it. The domestic car manufacturers cannot afford the R&D costs associated to switching over to fuel cells. And the consumers themselves do not want change, and will continue driving V8 monsters for as long as they can afford it.
Re:Hydrogen economy (Score:2)
That's cool, you'd have a whole lot of hydrogen fuel stations. But what are you going to pump? How are you going to produce hydrogen in an energy-efficient manner? And where are you going to be getting the fuel that's needed to process the hydrogen? Then once
Re:Hydrogen economy (Score:2)
It's not naive--far from it. It's just not politically correct. What's naive (though it *is* politically correct) is to think that the trillions of dollars spent on (you forgot to include the costs of the Afgan and Iraq wars in your figure-- the total is indeed well over a trillion) will make us safer. In reality, a few million dollars spent on extra security and a few basic improvements with inter-agency communication was all that was needed after 9/
Re:Hydrogen economy (Score:2)
Billions (Score:2)
$570 billion ... and this is what passes for "conservative" in America? Damn, if a few enterprising Republicans were interested, they could split off and form The Conservative Party of America (or something like that); run on a campaign of cutting taxes, slashing spending, using the military solely for domestic defence, and stamping out corruption, and they ought to be able to completely trounce the Republicans (who have completely betrayed their conservative ideals) and the Democracts (who have completely
Re:Hydrogen economy (Score:2)
Missed opportunity? (Score:2)
It's not a situation of "Too bad we wasted all our money on Thing A, because now we don't have the cash we need for Thing B".
We never had the money for the war on terror. If we really want to change to an alternative fuel source, we'll just do it. When you're that far in the hole, whats another couple hundred billion?
Re:Missed opportunity? (Score:2)
Re:Hydrogen economy (Score:2)
Re:Hydrogen economy (Score:2)
Bingo. Which is exactly why we went to war instead of building efficient infrastructure at home. We're not just over there securing rights to our oil interests, we're destabilizing the region which drives the price of oil up everywhere; hence, the HUGE profits.
Christ, it's getting to the point where I don't even have to put my tinfoil hat on to believe it anymore.
Re:Hydrogen economy (Score:2)
This idea assumes, of course, that God has a sneezing fit and the universe is suddenly run by cartoon physics.
When will gas go down to $5/gallon again ? (Score:2, Insightful)
When will the price get down to $5.00 again ? I believe this will be after the hydrogen fuel cell, when demand for petroleum based products fall.
The US should add $2 per gallon in tax, and send that to research in better energy sources. Right now US is the western country that does the least to protect environment, and it completely ignores global warming.
Scooters are already efficient... (Score:4, Interesting)
Piaggio, makers of the Vespa, are actually working on [retrothing.com] two hybrid models, but the rumor is the under-seat storage will be reduced or eliminated for batteries, so I have no interest in upgrading.
Re:Scooters are already efficient... (Score:2)
Hydrogen fuel cell is no problem (Score:2, Informative)
Yes, over here gas does cost $5/gallo
$5/gal gas (Score:4, Informative)
Here in the UK, it's already the equivalent of $7 per US gallon (97p/litre) or more. You guys don't know how good you've got it.
Mind you, the average "yank tank" probably uses more than double the fuel of the average European car. I think our average engine size is still under 1.6 litres in the UK.
ENV Scooter (Score:2, Interesting)
Mass Transit (Score:3, Insightful)
Most people won't buy this scooter, but they will ride a train.
Nice, but... (Score:3, Funny)
"Hybrid" Scooter (Score:2, Insightful)
Hydrogen (Score:2)