Not Your Daddy's IT Force Anymore 342
Quill345 writes "The days of high-paying technology-based jobs right out of highschool are over. As writers for ACM report, the skill-sets required for jobs have grown over time. Academia has responded to the evolution with novel programs recruiting women and integrating IT into MBA programs. And as technology finds its way into every aspect of business life, the NSF is creating a grant program to fund service science, a blend of IT into other industries. Researchers at City University of NY are working on an NSF-funded project to infuse technology into Liberal Arts courses taken by students who are in primary tech-producer or tech-consumer majors. What are these crucial modern skills? Knowledge of laws like the DMCA? Interpersonal and group work skills? Experience with different technology platforms? The ability to discriminate between useful and useless information sources?"
I got a suggestion. (Score:5, Insightful)
That would be a great course to offer "potental" managers.
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:5, Funny)
Rules for management that is drilled into the students in these classes.
1 - the engineers are lying.
2 - the engineers are lying.
3 - when the engineers are not lying they are covering something up.
4 - Whatever the engineers say the cost is cut it in 1/2 to get the real cost.
5 - Whatever the engineers say the time needed is cut it in 1/3 to get the real time.
6 - if the project fails, the engineers did it.
These are hard and fast MBA rules to live by. Teaching them to actually listen to the engineers and tech people? are you mad?
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:4, Informative)
incorrect: I got a suggestion.
correct: I have a suggestion.
incorrect: Rules for management that is drilled into the students in these classes.
correct: Rules for management that are drilled...
incorrect: Teaching them to actually listen to the engineers and tech people?
correct: Teach them to listen... (P.S. Don't split infinitives.)
I'm sure you will dismiss this message as the rantings of a pedant, but having good communication skills goes a very long way in this modern world. So much so that people actually will listen to your comments during a meeting. Conversely, many will tune you out as soon as you show that you don't have a grasp of tenth-grade language skills.
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:2, Informative)
Now as far as "Rules for management that is...", that can actually be correct if "Rules for management" is considered a single list. In that case, one would generally want to write it as a title (in quotes or something) but
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:3, Funny)
1. Nobody has tenth-grade language skills.
2. Talking like Niles Crane will get your arse kicked.
3. Ending sentences with prepositions is something up with I will not put.
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:2, Funny)
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:2, Insightful)
Score 5, Funny? Excuse me... (Score:2)
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:5, Insightful)
False.
Projects could work this way if they started with extremely clear goals but most Managers are unable to provide sufficient detail. In the real world Engineers are often asked to provide the idea's, estimated completion time, wait for Management to decide what to do and how many resources they have to work with, and then Engineers to start creating a product. However, the goal keeps changing as new ideas show up so Engineers are often asked to adapt something designed to do X and get it to do Y and Z using old time tables created around different projects.
Most Engineers understand you need to have marketing sell products and it's a good idea to have the public input on what are important features but filtering public desires though a marketing department decreases the accuracy of such requests. AKA instead of we will only buy it if A..N and we want M..Z marketing says they need A..Z.
IMO. The most efficient method of managing teck projects is to have teck people, working all other departments involved in the project, create a detailed plain of action which is then vetted though upper management to align it with overall strategic planning. Management then oversees this project to keep things going and keep Engineers focused on creating adequate if not perfect solutions to the problems at hand.
PS: This is not to say need the same Engineers working at each of the projects stages. The problem is management is unable to determine how complex changing "small details" is so they need to be given the choice between different plains of action instead attempting to micro manage said projects.
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:3, Interesting)
Thanks for that objective evaluation. I agree that a skill that an engineer or tech employee should have is project management. However, they are being hired for a tech skill, if the company wants a project manager, they will hire a project manager.
"Projects could work this way if they started with extremely
Riiiight...like I said lots of crappy management going on. This is a project management issue.
"Most Engineers understand you need to have marketi
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:3, Insightful)
The hard separation of Project Managment from technical function is often not a very good idea, since a thorough understanding of the technical environment and its impact on the project is often critical to being able to bring most projects to a successful conc
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:4, Insightful)
And here in lies part of the problem with current employee/management relationships, in tech areas. Generally speaking, in order for the tech people to make a system plan, they need to know where the business wants them to go. For example, if the business is expecting to start a business portal, the system plan will probably need to include a large webserver/webfarm with a good database backend, depending on expected traffic. If all the business is intending for a web presence is an advertsing web site, with some basic promotional information/contests, the traffic may not be as much and the webserver could be pared down, and the DB server/farm not quite the monster it would be for a large business portal.
Communication with all parts of the business are needed. Yes, you probably don't need your tech staff sitting in on planning meetings, but having someone who is familiar with technology, and your current system, in on planning meetings would be a good idea. If nothing else, they can provide a reality check to some of the near and mid term goals, and provide some valuable input on long term goals.
On the other side of the coin, computer people need to start learning a bit of the business side of things. It's great that you can configure a 1000 user LAN, on an OpenLDAP server, using Domino authenticating against the LDAP database for email and information mangement. But if, when a manager asks you about it, you can't put it in terms they will understand, you are not as useful as you think. That "business-speak" that is often bemoaned is simply a set of accepted terms that is understood by business people. In much the same way as programmers speak to each other in a specific set of terms, business people do the same. And, like the programming terms, it is not meant to obfuscate things, no matter how it sounds to an outsider, it is simply specific terms with defined meanings, which make communications eaiser between those who understand them.
IT/engineering and management must work together to create a successful business. If the two sides are fighting each other, and are unable to communicate, the business is doomed. This has to come from both sides. Management needs to keep the tech people in the loop, or the tech people will often go the wrong direction. And the tech people need to learn to communicate thier ideas and problems to management in an effective way.
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:2)
What I see very often, is that the engineer understands fully the IT problem/solution, but is unable to see the business perspective. Many times the best IT solution is not the best business decision, there are often
Re:I got a suggestion. (Score:3, Funny)
Personel Skills (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Personel Skills (Score:3, Insightful)
No thanks. That way is even more precarious than being a technologist.
Re:Personel Skills (Score:5, Interesting)
That depends. At my last job, managers were respected, and any developer over 30 was seen as past his/her prime and was the first to go. Maybe it's different now, but that wasn't too long ago. Development is seen by many as a young-man's sport (sorry ladies, you do good too) but once you're past a certain age, it is expected that you've moved beyond that point and are looking to management.
Well, at least that's how it is here on the east coast in the NY/NJ/PA area. I could see it being a different mentality out west.
Re:Personel Skills (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Personel Skills (Score:3, Informative)
I have worked with developers in their 60's on some projects involving more mature technologies, embedded programming, assembly, even c/c++, and have been utterly amazed at their skill set, as they had been doing this sort of work since it existed.
At the same time, I have worked with older developers on emerging technologies, java/.net/xsl/ajax, and been horribly disappointed at their inability to apply their previous knowled
Re:Personel Skills (Score:5, Insightful)
I just don't understand why so many places want to start back at square one every 9 years (if that long) and make themselves completely out of people that are fairly new to the game and make the same mistakes as the people who came in before them when they were their age. There really should be a mix of older and younger people on the team if you have much of a choice because there's a heck of a lot to be said about experience (and I don't just mean experience in a language, but rather in the industry as a whole - knowing what works, what doesn't, and how to get around it)
Re:Personel Skills (Score:3, Interesting)
This is particularly true of industries which have used IT for a long time (e.g., the airline industry), but it can also be true in smaller shops. I contracted with a glass-making co
Re:Personel Skills (Score:2)
More precisely, it's at about ten years after you start - that's about 30 if you started when you went to university. Could go lower or higher if you started some other time. It takes roughly ten years to gain expertise in any field.
I just don't understand why so many places want to start back at square one every 9 years
The cynical reason (Score:2)
About 20 years ago Lockheed, IIRC, was sued for laying off everyone in technical and engineering areas just as they were approaching the age of partial retirement. There was a settlement but not before a large number of people suffered severe financial damage. And
In addition.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Even after you leave that type of work, it's rough finding something with more room for growth. Your resume says nothing about your potential ability to work with groups or lead one. Several buddies of mine tried to "get a foot in the door" of an I.T. career by starting out on a help-desk or as a PC tech. - and except in one case (the guy got a government job as some type of PC support person), I don't think it gave any of them much of an advantage. If they spent the time as a manager of a retail store, I suspect those skills would have worked just as well for them.
There goes the neighborhood (Score:2)
It seems to me a way to get the MBSa and such integrated into the information age. They won't replace programmers or sys-admins but they may be ther new bosses of them (with just rnough knowledge to be dangerous).
Re:There goes the neighborhood (Score:2)
This is a positive thing (Score:4, Interesting)
An IT force with more robust backgrounds can only be a good thing. sweet hacker skills are of still relevant, but there needs to be more.
Re:This is a positive thing (Score:3, Insightful)
Now companies have decided to go overseas instead of high school to get their cheap green techies. And again some of them will succeed and grow and some will fail miserably.
In the end you will still have your core of educated geeks that go on.
Too mature of an indrustry. (Score:5, Insightful)
Companies don't want people who can get the work done, they want people who can get the work done professionally. Well Documented designed to work with their buisness needs, not change their buisness requirements to fit the computer. There are a lot of Highly skilled and well trained college educated Technical Professionals out there. There is little reason to really hire an out of Highschool Techy guy just because he know how to program the buzz words.
A college degree at the very least shows a minum level of self control and professionalism. At least the person got up most every day to go to class and pass the exams. Vs. Out of High School who just went to school because they were required by law to go. Or a College drop out who just couldn't fit into an environment. Getting a Degree shows the company you are more then just what you want to do.
Re:Too mature of an indrustry. (Score:3)
Re:Too mature of an indrustry. (Score:2, Insightful)
you obviousally do not work in a corperation IT/IS department.
Rule #1 is do it in the right way is not an option. Writing a specification document will only get your ass in a grinder as the specifications will change randomly all the way up until deploy date. After the project
Re:Too mature of an indrustry. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm in a different boat - I have twelve years of sysadmin/networking/security experience, but I can't get large companies to bite as I don't have a degree. What I DO have is 8 years of military experience out of high school. By your logic, that should count, but according to the larger companies, it doesn't.
If the military doesn't show 'a minimum of self control and professionalism' and required me to 'get up most every day to go', I don't know what does. :)
Re:Too mature of an indrustry. (Score:2)
Re:Too mature of an indrustry. (Score:2)
I was enlisted active duty for four years. I enjoyed serving, but the experience convinced me that I needed to get a degree to advance and reach my goals. Military service is a direct benefit for many types of jobs, and in my opinion is a distinguishing characteristic among otherwise similar job candidates. But it is not a substitute for a degree in the busine
Re:Too mature of an indrustry. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Too mature of an indrustry. (Score:2)
I got my CS degree 17 years ago and it's nothing but a worthless piece of paper to me today. Keeping up on technology and growing with
Re:Too mature of an indrustry. (Score:3, Insightful)
No, they want people who can make managers feel good.
Doing a good, professional job is well down the list of things that companies want. Far more important are things like: does not make their manager feel stupid, even when the manager makes stupid suggestions; does good work in such a way that their manager can take credit for it; does not point out stupid management decisions to management's
Re:Too mature of an indrustry. (Score:2)
A myth. Welcome to 2006. Many college degrees represent a period of time where the exact opposite was true. I acknowledge that there are students who work hard and take it seriously, but there are a fair number that don't, because to them, it's little more than the "ticket" they're after. It's also somewhat fallacious to suggest that someone without a "ticket" is unable to accommodate a high degree of self-control and
Uh... (Score:2)
As for the college degree. I may also show that the person is a severe procrastinator and took the opportunity to put off getting a real job for another four years.
Don't get me wrong. Learning is cool, and colleges have vast reasources to learn from, but getting a college degree does not show competence, and certainly does not show that a person is will to stick to things.
Maybe it's just me being overly critical... (Score:2, Insightful)
Surely it would be better to concentrate more on those students who are genuinely interested in ('boring',normal) IT, whatever their gender?
Re:Maybe it's just me being overly critical... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Maybe it's just me being overly critical... (Score:3, Insightful)
Is this the result of ages of sexist thinking when it comes to technology, or just a lack of understanding economics?
If you want more people to buy your cars, you make sure they're interested in buying them. You want more people to come to your class, you make it more interesting for them. You want to rope more students into paying $25,000 or more per year at
Re:Maybe it's just me being overly critical... (Score:3, Insightful)
What was the difference? I guess maybe that I was in a class filled with devious "gifted" kids. We were a sneaky, spiteful lot. Anything that we could "cleve
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:2)
And it really has nothing to do with career opportunities. Know what it is? They want to
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:2, Redundant)
Here's a radical concept: all women are *not* the same. Not all women like to be led. Some like to lead. Some enjoy their jobs. Some don't like children. Some like children, but would be terrible stay-at-home moms. Some husbands are better at being stay-at-home parents than their wives. Sometimes both husband and wife work, not because they have to, but because they both like working.
>>Writing another report for the CFO is not important. Having and raising children is. Plus it's mor
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:2)
Is it true that most women like being with kids more than most men do? Yes, absolutely. So my logic and my overall point stands strong.
My wife is better at raising kids. And she's glad to have a husband that's good at writing reports for the CFO. I work to get paid. My family needs a stream of income to survive. Someone's got to focus on taking care of the kids and somebody else has to focus on making money so the family can afford the things a famil
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:2)
I'm not against men or women being stay-at-home parents, o
Re: women as leaders (Score:2)
Obviously, individual situations vary, but I've certainly observed cases where women seemed to complain bitterly about "glass ceilings" and inequality in t
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:2)
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:2)
Nice caricature, and I'm sure it's useful to you when maintaining your worldview, but it doesn't represent reality. Feminist ideology is, and always has been, about choice.
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:3, Interesting)
Basically, because there are so many dual-income families, home prices have inflated to that market and now many people have to be dual-income to afford a home. Not really a win/win situation for society at large.
Still plenty of subtle discouragement (Score:2)
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:2)
I'm not sure if you are American or not, but do you know what it's like trying to raise children on one salary nowadays? Middle class mothers, and especially lower middle class mothers have to work.
Again, some evidence might be amusing. The normal feminist argument would be that the proportion of men and women doing the "tradi
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:2)
I think this sums up perfectly what the parent is claiming... What if women want to be a housewife??? societal opinion frowns on those who do, even to the extent that gameshow hosts ridicule the role. Sure, they have a world of choice, but some are more acceptable than others.
Personally I would love to be a house husband and am planning with my partner how this can be achieved with me giving up my income. Ev
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:2)
As a woman I have never, ever, doubted that I could be a housewife if I wanted to be. Facing discrimination in school and in the workplace is much more of a concern.
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:2)
The challenge is trusting your own instincts and not letting other peoples' attitudes get in your way.
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:3, Insightful)
Women are better at school than men are. The problem is that school doesn't work like the corporate world does. People who succeed in running a business learn that mistakes are wonderful learning opportunities. School teaches that mistakes are bad and you are punished for making them. People who are good at business are rewarded for creative thinking. People who are good in school are punished for not doing it the way the teacher said to even if
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:2)
Let us know when you have evolved to the point where you can give an unpopular opinion a fair hearing.
More women in the IT-field would increase the diversity generally a Good Thing (c)
There is nothing special or magical about diversity. I know that might break your heart, or go against everything you've been taught/programmed to t
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:3, Interesting)
Unfortunately, you have to recompile the coffee grinder's kernel every time you want to use a different roast. And rather than a but
Re:Things haven't really changed where it counts (Score:2)
Limiting women solely to the housewife role also shortchanges children. My mother was raised to believe that housewife was the only role for her, but life d
Barrier to entry (Score:4, Insightful)
Uhhm, aptitude tests in the first place? You want someone with 20 hours a week experience for three or four years while in high school.
What you don't want is someone who reads a 1" column in Money Magazine of the top growth fields by 2011 and just throws a dart.
I've seen where nearly 40% of the incompetent tech staff that I worked around in 2001 jumped right into the field of health sciences.
They shouldn't have been in IT, and the nursing profession (and patients) deserves better -- these folks never "heard their calling."
It really isn't just Tech... (Score:3, Interesting)
My girlfriend is a university graduate and holds a pharmacy technician certification and license. She got them (and about 500 hours of experience in a pharmacy) because she planned on going to pharmacy school. Then, considering she wasn't happy telling people, "Sorry Mr. Goldman, the insurance company doesn't feel as though your Alzheimer's is worth treating. You got $283.43 on ya?"
So she's on the job market again and has been for the last 2 months. Bachelor's degree, high quality experience in --AN-- industry and nothing. Why? Because companies and organizations no longer gauge the value of applicants by their credentials or educational degrees. All they want to see is hard experience directly working with the company database or "... at least 3+ years working knowledge of ".
Why? I dare say as an educator that it's because the market has been flooded with bachelor degrees and MS Certification, and this certification, etc.
How can we remedy this? Make it standard for companies to supply their applicant pool with training software. You want your applicant pool to be qualified and to integrate, achieving 85%+ productivity, within a week? Then you should really post downloadable software on the website from which you advertise jobs.
Bsck to my girlfriend, she's applied for many positions at same University at which I work. She's no longer looking for something that will "stimulate her mind" as she's willing to work in the payroll department-- "entry level". But, of course "Required: 3+ years of the *** payroll system including , , "
Save your time, with the education, guys. Graduate high school, get a couple certs just to make your resume a bit more full, and make a friend on the inside. Connections really do seem to be the only way to get a job today. =(
Re:It really isn't just Tech... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's pretty lousy advice. Considering you're basing this on your gf's story, maybe the lesson is don't specialize in something you think you don't want to do. Quitting your career because of uninsured people is a silly reason to piss away your experience and education. Who's going to hire someone who willy-nilly has random ethical problems? She comes off like someone who refuses to be part of the environment she chose to work in. What employer wants a flakey person like that? Here's some real advice:
1. Finish school.
2. Don't be a martyr.
3. Become flexible to adapt to different environments.
4. Have fun and make connections.
5. Remember a job is a means to an end not an end in itself.
Also, I disagree that the market is flooded with useless degrees and certifications. Its flooded with people competing with her for that payroll job. The person with payroll experience will win. This is nothing new. Whether or not they have degrees or certs is merely incidental. The entitlement attitude you and your gf have because you just have some degree isn't going to fly. Advising people to stop going to college because of your bad attitude is pretty ignorant and petty.
Re:It really isn't just Tech... (Score:3)
So while I agree with the sentiment that education does not buy you much these days.
Re:It really isn't just Tech... (Score:2)
Re:It really isn't just Tech... (Score:2)
Yup. That's why it's so hard for folks who have lots of legitimate experience to find work in some markets.
Experience..... (Score:5, Informative)
Seriously though, the communication/interpersonal skills are far more valuable. I have seen many people who have no talent or skill in anything technical make it very far while the person with the technical knowledge remains where they are.
PS. My skills learned from the bar make me a great conversationist, but not being a sycophant I am not afraid to say "NO!" to a manager who has no tech skills, but wishes to impress the client regardless the cost. This has made my career static and somewhat digressive.
Huh? (Score:2)
Why don't they work on infusing more real world type projects into their comp sci majors instead?
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Because that might make a comp sci degree that actually has some use in the real world (and thus require real work from the lecturers), as oppossed to comp sci degrees that are really only for "professionalism" checklists(Degree? check, Suit? check, ability to use sports metaphors for "interpersonal communication skills"? check) - which are a lot easier to teach.
Does it follow? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is it just me, or is this quite the nonsequitur? I can see integrating IT into MBA programs as a potential solution, but how does recruiting women into IT adress the problem? Clicking on the "recruiting women" link leads to an article titled "CMU uses game maker's characters to interest girls in computer programming" which is one of the most condescending ideas I have ever come across.
Physics for Poets (Score:3, Interesting)
Researchers at City University of NY are working on an NSF-funded project to infuse technology into Liberal Arts courses
Well my experience in college was that many, though not all, liberal arts majors purposefully avoided technical subjects; they were incapable of functioning in that domain. It was like trying to teach a cat to play chess. The university policy though was that they should be educated on those subjects. The resulting compromise between the impossible and the ideal was that the university offered special dumbed-down courses on technical subjects. They taught physics without math. A waste of time for all involved.
It is the educators who need to get a clue here: stop trying to teach a subjects to the selection of students who can not learn it. Poets don't need to know computer programming, most of them are incapable of learning it, so stop wasting everyones time and the taxpayers money by insisting that they learn. A society where everyone is technical expert is an impossible fantasy. Identifying the group of people least willing and able to learn a subject and choosing to teach them that is the least-efficient plan. Naturally, that would be government funded.
Re:Physics for Poets (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Physics for Poets (Score:2)
Experience trumps everything (Score:3, Insightful)
I've always heard that 80% of why you have and keep your job is people skills. I think that number is close to being true.
Also, somebody mentioned the people going into nursing and the medical field because US News and World Reports put it as a lucrative field. I think you need to have a passion for that field to really want to help others. I can't imagine a good healthcare provider who's in it just for the money.
The 7 layers of the OSI model. (Score:5, Interesting)
The truth is, The degree does not mean squat! Heck the experience does not even seem to mean anything. If it did (with my 15 years in the field) I would not be asked to name the 7 layers of the OSI model. The certs do not seem to mean anything. So what is left? HR people just call one of there technical people in and have them quiz the new applicant. The technical person seems to take the stance of "Lets prove I am smarter than the new guy" and add questions like "In Linux what is init level 3?" and does not accept "Anything you set it to when you edit the
More recently I was asked "Where is Apache installed on Solaris 9?" I responded with "The install is a compile time option, so it is where ever you set it to be." I was told I was wrong because the package they get from their packaging department always installs in the
The issue is that HR departments and hireling managers (non-tech) have no way to judge an individuals skills. They have found that the guys with degrees do not always know what to do, Resumes are faked or fudged, and certs can be made with a good laser printer. What is left? They start to look for people that have experience in just the apps and hardware they have then have there existing guys judge there skills. Is there a better way? I really do not know, although I would start by teaching the general IT people how to interview. It mite make it a little easier.
Re:The 7 layers of the OSI model. (Score:2)
Also, depending on the context, asking someone where things are installed or about runlevels can be pretty stupid things to ask, and may be irrelevant. It's also possible, however, that they aren't looking for the obvious answer; maybe they think you are really smart and are trying to see how you handle something you don't know?
If I was interviewing and felt the need to ask about default runlevels for some reason, someone wh
Interpersonal and group work skills? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think IT workers get unfairly lumped as people with "poor interpersonal and group work skills", simply because people with a more introverted dispostion are attracted to it than to other professions. A lot people assume that just because you're quiet, you lack interpersonal skills, completely ignoreing the fact that a lot of extroverts aren't actually that good when it comes to interpersonal skills - all that talking is assumed to be an example of "good interpersonal skills" when it's actually a lot of BS and politics (with a good amount of backstabbing). Most introverts where I know work really well with other people, while a lot of I know extroverts (and especially the ones I know at work) are great at blowing hot air but don't work at all well with other people.
Re:Interpersonal and group work skills? (Score:2)
When my sister was in school a few years ago as a marketing major nearly all of her marketing classes were focused around group projects. If the group didn't work together you didn't get a good grade. The program was completely about "Interpersonal and group work skills".
Program is for Technology Majors, not GenEd (Score:3, Informative)
The program is designed to supplement the courses that a technology-area major takes ordinarily. The idea is that your English, Speech, Health and other core College courses would be technology infused, thus showing you the connections between the theory of technology you're majoring in and applications to other fields. The hope is that by the end, students will know the breadth of career possibilities instead of getting pipelined directly into the average help desk career.
Besides the tech-infusion into typical courses, the program also concludes by having students create a simulated technology business in the classroom. They're asked to go through the process of coming up with an idea, business model, marketing plans, and then working to "sell" that product. This connects their technology knowledge with real world business practices, as well as forces them to read about the current state of the industry, all while imparting those critical communication, groupwork and other soft skills.
The real question here is what skills need to be infused into the Liberal Arts courses so that in their final course they are able to and feel confident in starting their own tech-based business.
Teach everyting but CompSci (Score:2)
The more they mix computer science with other areas, the more watered down computer science seems to get. What they should be doing is making computer science more like a science. Teaching computer skills is fine, but this sounds like trying to make people outside of the computer science field think they know as much as people inside the computer science field.
OH honestly... (Score:4, Informative)
Those days never existed and for christ's sake I wish IT-types would stop perpetuating the myth. Yeah, sure, there were excesses during the dot-com boom-bust cycle, but rarely, VERY rarely were those excesses bestowed upon 17 year-olds. It was bad enough when people were insinuating that every CompSci graduate in 1997 was getting a 135K/year job with a free Mercedes. Stupid shit like that happened, but the psychology is akin to one Amway triple-diamond sales manager pulling up in his new Maserati, causing the 300 people in his "downline" running around telling all their friends that they're getting Maseratis too. Then, when the whole thing falls apart, they don't have the Maserati, and everyone gets into a big schadenfreude orgy watching the giant fall...from a height he never attained.
The other aspect of this that is maddening is the implication that utterly normal salaries for middle-of-the-road positions are "high." Take a garden variety IT job that pays about $65-70k today. Well, in 1995 dollars that's $49-52K -- and that WASN'T a great deal of money in 1995 for a skilled occupation. Constantly screaming out this mantra of "high IT salaries" communicates to people that they are unjustified. Go to the BLS and pull up similarly skilled occupations. You'll find that by and large, IT salaries are--and have been for some time--totally in line with, say, being an electrician or a telco engineer... or a PLUMBER for christ's sake.
The bubble was a five-year abberation that has been over for five years. Get over it and please stop perpetuating and exacerbating what is largely urban myth based on what are at best statistical outliers. In short, shut-the-fuck-up already.
Re:OH honestly... (Score:2)
Oh, I don't know about that. In 1990, I started my first full-time programming job, with a high school diploma, and about 2/3 of a bachelor's degree in systems analysis completed, and I made the princely sum of EIGHT BUCKS an hour.
Thank you for injecting a bit of reality here.
Re:OH honestly... or Do Jobs Dream Of People? (Score:4, Informative)
Those days never existed and for christ's sake I wish IT-types would stop perpetuating the myth.
Actually, they did exist.
My first job, in 1980-1982, was as a Power Engineer for Tek Cominco (back then Cominco), and it paid $12 when I started as an Assitant and I was making $22 within a year. Back then, that was more than a wealthy white collar worker made, and even CEOs only made about $40 an hour then.
When I moved to Seattle, shortly after the tech boom hit, and many people were getting four or five job offers at 100K+ if they left work in one place, in the late 1990s. I remember having a job end, going on vacation to go surf in Santa Barbara, and getting two job offers the week I was surfing, starting work the day after I got back.
Unreasonable expectations. (Score:5, Insightful)
I have been out of work for 6 months, this is an example "Help Wanted" that I recently read:
Minimum MUST HAVE requirements:
5 Years Oracle
5+ Years Windows System Admin
5 years Help Desk
5 years Citrix
7 Years C++, VB, (and a few others)
Salary Range: $20,000 - $25,000/year (Canadian)
They are trying to fill 4 jobs with 1 person who would work for $10/hour!
Computers are my passion, but with many places pulling shit like this I think I'll keep it as my hobby and go look for another career.
Re:Unreasonable expectations. (Score:2)
9 times out of 10 my absolute barrier is that I need a Bachelor's degree to get hired doing the same work I'm doing now. They've str8 up told me that this is the case.
On the same token, degree or no, I'm seeing a shift of perception on IT in general. Granted, there was an unrealistic height in the 90s, but now I'm seeing a
Re:Unreasonable expectations. (Score:3, Interesting)
5 Years Oracle
5+ Years Windows System Admin
5 years Help Desk
5 years Citrix
7 Years C++, VB, (and a few others)
Salary Range: $20,000 - $25,000/year (Canadian)
They are trying to fill 4 jobs with 1 person who would work for $10/hour!
Perhaps. Although it sounds to me like you may be reading too much into this. Reading this, it sounds like a not-for-profit community hospital (or something similar) seeking desktop support. In affect, they want somebody with 3 or 4 yea
Missing the point (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole wave of off-shoring shows the first phase of this maturation process. If you can spec it you can out source it. If you can our source it then someone can generalize it. Once it is generalized then IT as an internal service goes away. In the not so distant future, IT functions will be turned over to the facilities department and the maintenance folks - same as heat, water, electricity, phones, etc.
Re:Cheaper jobs? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Cheaper jobs? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Cheaper jobs? (Score:2)
Re:Cheaper jobs? (Score:2)
Geek crack (Score:5, Funny)
As if geeks didnt have enough trouble getting chicks...Now we have to show crack at work?
Methinks that will not help matters at all!
Re:Cheaper jobs? (Score:3, Insightful)
Some of us, yes. But some of us will be designing the parts, testing the parts, refining the parts. Making the next generation of parts. And supporting people who have to install, service and use the parts.
And some of us will give up IT altogether, and go raise goats. Or something.
Re:Cheaper jobs? (Score:2)
Unable to Read the "Fine" Article... (Score:5, Informative)