Linux vs. Windows for Schools? 553
Fiachra06 writes "I am involved in helping to maintain the computer systems in the local school (200 ~ 250 pupils) in my home village. The children range in age from 4 to 12. The 14 PC's are running either Windows 95, Windows 98, and XP Home Edition and I find this rather abhorrent. The licensing fees to upgrade all the capable machines to XP pro is unreasonable for such a small school. What would the esteemed Slashdot readers think of shifting all these machines to a Linux distro (probably Ubuntu). I have no doubt the children will have no problem adapting to the new OS (although the teachers might), the main concerns are the availability of educational software for them to use, and practicality of maintenance for people who are new to the OS given that I am not there regularly enough to be a full time sys admin. Preferably I wouldn't like to running too much through Wine but it is still an option."
How about... (Score:5, Informative)
What is education (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What is education (Score:2)
A learning environment for what though? These kids' focus is probably not learning computer desktop environments, it's more likely to be using some specialised educational software.
My advice would be to stay with Windows in the general classes, and to put a 50/50 Windows/Linux split in the computing classes should the syllabus make that possible. Oh, and I'm an OS X user by the way, don't use Window
Re:What is education (Score:2)
But tools to do what? That's what I'm asking. The original poster and yourself have phrased the matter as if learning about computing could be considered the main task. But to take an example, why should someone studying biology at the 12 year-old level care at all about what tool is delivered to do so, so long as it works? Computing isn't what that particular student is there
What applications? (Score:2)
2 different needs might lead you in 2 directions for getting things up and running with 'other than windows'.
Edubuntu (Score:5, Informative)
Edubuntu FAQ [edubuntu.org]
Looking at the Edubuntu Tour [edubuntu.org], some of the programs seem to be for a younger age, around kindergarten and up, but the SchoolTool calendar for teachers looks interesting.
OpenOffice is included (of course). You don't mention what applications the kids may need - if it's just for internet browsing and research, and maybe some of the other educational things already included (Typing, etc), Edubuntu may fit your needs.
The upcoming 6.04 release of Ubuntu's Dapper Drake may fit you better, as it will have a formal support cycle. (I want to say 3 years).
Re:Edubuntu (Score:2)
Considering that PCs still running Win95 probably don't have that much RAM wouldn't it make more sense to use Kubuntu? KOffice should be enough for kids that age and isn't as dog slow as OOo, Konqueror needs less ressources than Firefox and Kiosk would allow to lock down the PCs for different classes and age groups.
Ubuntu (Score:2)
If not for this problem, I'd say that Ubuntu is the Linux distribution that is ready to conquer desktops everywhere.
Use the OS that runs your software (Score:2)
I'd love to switch to Linux at home too, but everytime time I get to thinking about what software I use everyday, I realize it's just all for Windows. The OS serves one pupose: to run your software
Re:Use the OS that runs your software (Score:3, Informative)
More than likely, the OP needed "A spreadsheet" but chose the actual application based on a variety of factors, one of which was probably the OS he was running at the time. He doesn't need to run spreadsheet Brand X, that's just his current choice; if spreadsheet Brand Y can fulfil t
Re:Use the OS that runs your software (Score:2)
The computer serves one purpose: to get your work done.
Windows/Office/Winamp and Linux/Openoffice/XMMS are two means to the same end. What this guy needs to do is look at exactly what those computers are used for and see if mature packages exist for doing the job.
Re:Use the OS that runs your software (Score:2)
As for software only available on Windows: PhotoShop (you may like Gimp, but I don't), a good RAW digicam converter (notably; the camera makers' software), FrontPage (I don't have the spare time to type html) and somewhat more on topic; quality edu
Ask Slashdot? (Score:2)
Hmmm. Let me think now!
Abhorrent? (Score:2)
Look, whatever the ideal solution here might be in technical terms, if you are making decisions for these people on the basis of what you find 'abhorrent', then you should stop.
People are trusting you to make an informed technical choice, and you are presumably presenting yourself as someone who adds value in the form of technical knowledge and ability, right? You can't turn around and lead these people down a path determined by the fact that you have a personal emotional issue with some software. It's pr
Re:Abhorrent? (Score:2)
Nope (Score:2)
If we're dependent on schools for values we're in BIG trouble.
FWIW... (Score:3, Insightful)
It might be in MS's best interest to grow their Windows users from the ground up by practically giving away their OS to K-12 institutions. I think they're shooting themselves in the foot by extorting money from them.
From a purely practical point of view, because we live in a "Windows World," it would serve the kids best to know their way around it. It would be a disservice to them to make them use Macs or Linux boxes and breed ignorance to the real world.
HOWEVER, it would also be a disservice to these kids to NOT know anything about the other OSs out there. High school is a good place to introduce *nix for basic programming/computer science curriculums.
The bottom line: it's education. Kids should be given the opportunity to learn as much about the computing world as they can by having exposure to all the technology available. Because of its ubiquity, locking out MS would be a mistake (unless the goal is to breed absolute contempt for MS in the next generation which would bring MS down--but that's another thread, I'm sure).
Re:FWIW... (Score:2)
Well considering these kids ages range from 4-12, I doubt they are in high school (unless they skipped a grade or two).
Re:FWIW... (Score:2)
Re:FWIW... (Score:2)
If MS is going to force K-12 school districts into heavy handed licensing fees, then I think the Ubuntu track is a good alternative. It's better for the kids to have a working updated computer than it is for them to have an outdated and virus infected one. As I said, my only reservation is "windows ignorance" when they enter college or the workforce. Like it or not, MS Office on Windows is what almost everyone who doesn't read slashdot uses.
Re:FWIW... (Score:2)
With 14 PCs there is the possibility of 10-Win + 4-Lin or some such combination. Better yet, dual-boot them all.
Maybe only 10-12 need to be set up with permanent installs ... let the kids mess with various distros and other random [freebyte.com] OSs like BeOS...
Re:FWIW... (Score:2)
"It would be a disservice to them to make them use Macs or Linux boxes and breed ignorance to the real world."
Windows didn't exist when I was at school. I still to this day have to do all my work in BBC Basic and Logo. Getting modern programs to run in 32Kb is no fun, I can tell you.
Let's put it this way... (Score:2)
All we are say....ing..... is give Linux a chance..
Look before you leap (Score:2)
Good luck explaining to them that they can't use some fancy piece of educational software they've already bought, or if they can but it will sort-of work and sort-of not work thanks to Wine. IME, few teachers would accept being told this - and regardless of whether or not you should educating youngsters in a specific operating system, you may have a hard time convincing teachers of this.
I know it's not wh
Syllabus required software (Score:2)
Other than that, I've heard of schools in the UK going down the LTSP road and it being excellent. If someone is messing around, you kill their X, move them to the front, and log them back into exactly where they were. Kid kicks a power plu
Requirements document (Score:2)
With this document in hand, alternatives from "do nothing" through various upgrade strategies to "all new computers" should be reviewed and evaluated. Anything less would be irresponsible.
Here we have a large existing capital inves
Look at their NEEDS, not your WANTS (Score:2, Interesting)
What are your needs? (Score:2)
First off, you need evaluate what you're doing with these computers. Are they for the students, or the teachers? What exactly are the people who are using them doing with them? Is the software specific to the OS, or can it be ported? Is there an alternative?
From your description, it sounds like you have a mix of computers, ranging from older to newer. Getting XP to run on the older ones is likely to be an exercise in frustration all by itself.
If the student's are the ones using the computers, wh
I vote for Windows (Score:2)
95% of people use Windows in wider society, including businesses.
I use Linux every day, it pays my wage. But for the 0.01% of people who would use the power Linux features, Windows has Cygwin, Ethereal and all that.
They must learn Windows.
Re:I vote for Windows (Score:2)
Student are in school to learn generalities, not specifics. They need to learn how to learn, and not to be taught specific actions using a specific tools.
If you teach students to use Word, you get a bunch of students who can use Word, and nothing else. You teach students how to use a *word processor*, they will feel comfortable using any word processor, because knowing what the capabilities of a word processor should they will know what to look for.
remember to check the history (Score:2)
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6349 [linuxjournal.com]
I have family that lives up that way and they get some help for there linix stuff from this guy.
questions you need to answer (Score:2)
First, you need to have a good understanding of what these computers need to do. You mention educational software and wine. Does that mean there are specific applications that the computers must run or just that there are just things the computers should be able to do. A requirement that the computers run Oregon Trail 2005 (or whatever) probably means that you must stay with Windows or attempt to run it slowly in wine. But if the requirement is
Abhorrent? (Score:2)
As long as you understand this, and have the kid's best interest in mind, you won't do to wrong by them.
There is no difference in terms of usability for a child's standpoint. Adults are often a different matter, but if they are for the most part not required to admin
Thin client - and VNC (Score:2)
2)Keep a windows machine or 2. Run the windows software on it - and connect with VNC. Costs nothing; 100% compatible.
[Wine is quite good these days, but if you already have the MS licenses...]
3)Don't buy any new windows apps - you'll only feed the addiction!
4)Rip the fonts out of your existing installs. The
It's pretty simple (Score:2)
Decisions don't have to be difficult to be correct.
Re:It's pretty simple (Score:2)
Ask the Portland (Oregon) Public Schools (Score:2)
Hope this helps.
grammar check (Score:2)
maybe you can load up word via wine and check your grammar.
Quick point on investing in students (Score:2)
If cost is the issue (Score:2)
Use Ubuntu + Dosbox! (Score:2)
variety is the spice of life (Score:2)
Linux Terminal Server Project (Score:2)
very simple, very straightforward. it's set up to be useable by non-totally-technical administrators, with a looovely simple front-end for setting up DNS, DHCP, adding packages for use on the LTSP-clients (which includes rdesktop).
You can add LTSP to ANY "desktoppy-servery" machine and it will be useable by dozens of simultaneous clients.
So, you pick your distro (deadrat, debian, debian-edu, edubuntu) and then you just follow the LTSP instructions
and voila, its desktop environment is magica
Learn vs. Endoctrinate. (Score:2)
If you want to endoctrinate the children provide 1 OS. And make them proficient in 1 OS.
If you want to teach (impart) education, install more than 2 OS's and integrate services among them.
Teach students to think OUTSIDE the BOX...Literally.
There's one thing you've not told us (Score:2)
Also, you say yourself that you're not there often enough to properly support the PCs alone, and that there are concerns about availability of required software. Those two things right there indicate pretty heavily against a switch to Linux.
Your language (eg use of the word "abhorrent") and lack of stated requirement for the change makes it sound very much like your main (or even sole) reason for wanting to swi
Education (Score:2)
Linux Terminal Server? (Score:2)
http://www.k12ltsp.org/ [k12ltsp.org]
http://www.ltsp.org/ [ltsp.org]
I actually run this at home, and am writing this post from a VNC enabled Linux Terminal Server. The machines you are using sound old, so if you are willing to invest a little in server hardware, this could be a good option. If you have PXE boot capable network cards, then you can boot from the network into linux. If not then it can also be accomplished with boot disks. For the must have Windows software packages, you
Go for it. (Score:2)
Change gradually (Score:2)
There's no need to change everything at once. Install Ububtu on one machine (if they are worried about loss of capacity, and you are able, then lend them a machine for a while). Let the teachers try, let the kids try. Get feedback then re-assess.
It's also possible that one Ubuntu machine could provide you with more than one seat. If the machines are networked, then all the machines could access the one server (VNC?). Ultimately, something like the Ndiyo project [ndiyo.org] may end up providing small schools with
And who wants the change? (Score:2)
So has anyone actually asked you to look into moving the PCs to a new operating system, or are you just a zealot trying to cram Linux down peoples' throats? You aren't going to win anyone over to Linux by being an arrogant prick and dumping a new OS on them just to show off how 31337 you are because you know how to install Linux and configure X.
Try it! (Score:2)
me too (Score:2)
First of all, as the first comment states, if you have some machines running windows 95 or 98, they may be too old to run Windows XP anyway. Regardless, as he also pointed out, upgrading 14 PCs to Windows XP Pro would cost roughly $1400.
The time you would spend administering 14 linux PCs would dwarf the time you would spend administering 14 Windows-based PCs, particularly if they're all Windows XP Pro. I presume, if your school situation is at
Educational programs are overrated (Score:2)
Looking at the programs that come with Linux distros, you have software for writing, math, drawing, graphing, and other activities that learning requires.
You also have a HUGE collection of FOSS utilities and games and compilers.
Little Educational S/W for Linux (Score:2)
There really was almost none. I happened to be in a store that had educational software on the shelves a little later and I realized that choosing Linux for these kids meant they could never use any of that stuff.
I don't think Linux coders are very interested in making things like The oregon trail or Where in the world is Carmen San Diego. And commercia
Here's a school that did it. (Score:2)
Have a look at this story [linuxjournal.com] (also here [seul.org]). It's the tale of how one school's sysadmin converted the computer lab to Linux (Mandrake), KDE, and a host of open-source education and productivity applications.
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
$1000 to a school of 200-250 kids is expensive, when you look at all the other costs schools are assumed to support these days.
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
That's $4-$5 a kid. That's cheap compared to what the schools actually pay for the computers, books, electricity, salaries and so on. It's also what, a one time cost? Please, a back sale could raise that much money.
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2, Informative)
You clearly don't have kids. A thousand dollars is a lot to many public schools. I'll try more constructive responses unlike the totally useless criticisms expressed above.
You'll need to find out if there are other teachers, parents or students (depending on the kids' ages) who can support Linux before seriously considering this. You'll also need to
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:4, Informative)
Sure the handful of crapfully crafted games he had for Windows wouldn't run, but within the first week he didn't care. The distro comes loaded with educational games and exercises. His 1st grade class has 3-4 ancient iMacs (the ones that came in different colors). My impression was that they don't use the computers to construct or teach lessen plans, but its there to get them accustomed to using computers on a daily basis. For some edu-games, some heavily restricted internet, and education exercises I HIGHLY recommend edubuntu for younger kids.
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:5, Interesting)
Lets review this persons response shall we...
*Abhorrent? Please. Licensing costs for 14 copies of XP Pro Academic Upgrade would run just under a grand.*
- Obviously current affairs are not a strong point with you - most schools are closing down programs or closing all together, for years the teachers themselves had had to purchase their own supplies for the classes they teach, supplies the schools used to supply (pencils, Scissors, Construction Paper, paste)
*If the machines are running 95 and 98, I'd bet more then a few are old enough that they probably shouldn't be running XP so the actual cost likely is less.*
- this combined with the privious statement shows your true lack of understanding within the modern school system let alone proper project planning and managment - IF the PC's in question are indeed incapable of running WinXP well then it will just cost less in licensing then LOL no, because then you have to upgrade/replace the PC to modernize the PC to run todays software and so then it will indeed cost far MORE - the person posting the original question was hoping to find a low cost solution to a modern need and as even Micro$oft and its ferverent backers will all agree, linux is moving up the usability ladder and showing up more and more in mainstream life - get used to it LOL
*Yes it's a significant chunk of change, but not crippling expensive. Obviously running 95, 98, and XP Home may not be the best solution overall, but it apparently seems to work for the time being.*
-See my first section in response to this, amazing some people actually think our school system can just go buy anything - sad to have that little understanding of the modern school crisis faced today
*What you are proposing is installing an operating system that is completely foreign to them. The software that they already own has been untested on it. It may or may not work. The availability of future software titles that run natively is also limited. Neither the kids nor the teachers have any experience with it. And to top it off, you even point out that you can't really support it like you should.*
- Has anyone knows children learn at a far faster rate and adapt to new tech far faster than adults, they wouldnt have a problem (and prolly would help the teachers as well) adapt and learn the new systems in no time - your assuming that Point-N-Click is a windows only thing?? take 1 PC, Load Ubuntu or whatever distro on it, load and setup Wine, add the needed software and test, once you are sure its stable, image the PC and load on the other PC's (after taking some time to familirize the staff with the new OS and the dreaded Point-N-Click on the icon interface as they prolly never seen that before)
*Sounds like a great plan!*
- despite your sarcasm, it does, nothing better than saving a cash strapped school system a few thousand needed elsewhere desperatly dollars than dump them into the coffers of Micro$oft that will dump Million$ (of its Billion$ in revenue/profit) into the school and educational systems worldwide, but cries licensing disputes right here in the US itself for the further education and empowerment of the youth here and now.
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
Anyway, the majority of households have windows at home anyway. Not like they'll have never seen it before. They'll be on it all day long playing games, using AIM, writing Myspace/livejournal blogs, etc.
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
I learned computers on a Mac in elementary school (Score:2)
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
And then when the kids get out into the big bad world and realise that most companies are using this completely different OS called Windows, that'll set them in good stead for getting a job.
Oh no! Companies aren't using DOS, WordPerfect, and Lotus 1-2-3 like we had when I was in high school... What will I do?
First of all, our education system is not set up to provide training for a job. Second, students shouldn't be learning 'how to use MS Word' or 'how to use MS Excel.' They should be learning 'h
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:3, Informative)
Different hardware wouldn't matter at all with this, because, unlike Windows, Linux actually has real plug and play. As long as you don't have the boot drive running on a wierd, non-standard drive controller, it will detect any hardware changes just fine on
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:4, Insightful)
As a Linux advocate, I'd have to agree with you overall -- The poster already said he won't be a full time admin.
If he WERE the admin, and had someone as backup admin, he should not be gambling with his and other folks time trying to fix this... especially in one fell swoop.
My suggestion is to configure 1 new and 2 old systems as a diskless Linux Terminal, with the better system running as a server of course. DON'T SELL the folks on WINE compatability -- you asked about it, meaning you (OP) don't know much about configuring WINE to actually run more than Minesweeper and Notepad (think: native DLL's). If some things work in wine, BONUS, but from the start remove this feature from the plate.
If the k12 Linux Terminal Server project works for these systems, you have a good pilot. Now draw up a chart showing what a $1500 investment in the lab would get you (A few new XP systems, or a bunch of upgrades or new OS-less systems). Then let the customer decide.
It's a huge undertaking what you propose. You are not prepared for it if you have to ask Slashdot (no offense to anyone). If you do this and fail, your credibility will be destroyed, and when Linux gets better and better they will be the last folks on the planet to try it again because of the bad experience.
Aim for a pilot program, or a fileserver, but only if you are at least 80% technically capable of it. Some things you can find in Google, but there's nothing worse than some newbie posting on the forums, whining that they have to finish Something they don't know how to, and on a deadline at that.
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:4, Informative)
Not saying Windows is the worst solution, but you oversimplify the issue grossly.
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
he never said that the mix of different versions of windows is a problem, he just doesn't think it's the best way to do things. but it could very well be working out perfectly fine for the school (students and their teacher
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
You forgot to add:
1) Fees for lawyer to determine that an upgrade license is not legimate:
2) Licenses for XP Pro Academic edition (full, not OEM or upgrade)
3) Licenses for anti-spyware.
4) Licenses for anti-virus.
5) Hardware upgrades to make the machines capable of running XP.
People like you are either shills or have no real world experience running windows.
For 14 machines running XP, you are go
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
WTF? I'm all for going with your preferred solution, but let's not just make shit up as a reason for doing so. You can get 200 academic licenses for XP Pro and Office Pro for under ten grand. I don't know who in the hell you're paying or what in the hell you're paying for, but you're not even in the ballpark for typical academic cases. Or you can get the 14 you need and spend the other $9500 or so on
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
I didn't mention linux, I was simply stating that $1000 for 14 windows machines is (hopelessly) unrealistic.
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
Opportunity cost (Score:2)
How about when you want to expand into application software realms? Art, music, math, science...you can rpm/apt-get/emerge to your heart's content if you don't make a lousy OS choice on the front end.
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
A more constructive thing to advise (especially since a grand can be a lot to a cash-strapped school - we don't know *where* this school is, it could be in Mozambique for all we know) is do a bit of a cost/benefit exercise:
- what software do they run now?
- out of this, what runs trouble-free on, say, Ubuntu (probably a good choice of distro for this situation)
- what educational software runs on Linux
Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:2)
KDE Education Suite (Score:3, Informative)
KLatin [kde.org], KVerbos [kde.org], and Kiten [kde.org] to teach Latin, Spanish, and Japanese respectively.
KMPlot [kde.org] to plot mathematical functions and Kig [kde.org] to explore geometric constructions.
Kalzium [kde.org] to teach Chemistry KStars [kde.org] to teach astronomy.
KGeogr [kde.org]
Re:Network based startup (Score:2)
How is the speed? I mean, do the applications you run on this setup feel snappy? What about printing and storage? I know this is possible, but would like you to shade some light on your environment. One thing I know is that you sre saving something in power consumption. Are these 500 PCs booting off a single server? Is multimedia (listening to streaming media) possible? Please shade some light. Thanx.
Re:Network based startup (Score:2)
Re:Network based startup (Score:2)
Re:Network based startup (Score:2)
Re:Network based startup (Score:2)
Re:Not user friendly enough yet (Score:2)
While Linux has still a few usability problems, for anything where you have a seperate administrator, has seems to be here the case, its perfectly ok, actually it has been perfectly ok for such installations for quite a long time.
### Take installation. Linux zealots are now saying "oh installing is so easy, just do apt-get install package or emerge package": Yes, because typing in "apt-get" or "emerge" makes so much mo
ok, I'll bite: (Score:2)
A windows computer without a properly trained user will be a stinking mess in no time. Ye she may be able to install quake on it, but also all the malware she thinks sounds entertaining.
That is fine at home, but in a school or office environment that will not do. Then it suddenly does not matter that the user cannot install any software by themselves. They may not like that very much, but it keeps their computer running for 5 years or more (provided the hard
Re:Not user friendly enough yet (Score:2)
Speaking of school, I think someone needs to go back to kindergarten and learn the difference between >(we call it "greater than") and
But yeah, you are right, Linux will stick around with greater than 1% market share.....
Re:Not user friendly enough yet (Score:2)
Re:Why not both? (Score:2)
For better or worse, there will always be a need for machines running Windows in this kind of environment, as whatever random CD-ROM or learning application the teacher decides to introduce to the classroom will probably need windows, and you're not going to look to good telling them that they can't teach the j
Re:Why not both? (Score:2)
Re:Is this a troll? (Score:2)
Re:Possibly slanted response... (Score:2)
Oh wait...
Re:Need more information (Score:3, Funny)
What would the esteemed Slashdot readers think of shifting all these machines to a Linux distro (probably Ubuntu).
OK, that's the only line approaching a question in the summary (though one of these "?" thingys would make it more official). Is that seriously a front-page question? OK, the anwer is.... You ready for it? We think its good!
Thanks for asking!
Re:SkoleLinux (Score:2)
Ever tried to type sudo bash?
Re:My experience.... (Score:2)
Re:Support and Applicability to the Real World (Score:2)
Let's face it Windows applications are the *mainstream* apps in Business, do your goals include exposing your young students to these apps (i.e. do you plan to teach them how to use office apps ?).
This is such a stupid objection. My kids use Debian at home, and they use Firefox and OpenOffice. They took approximately 15 seconds to figure out MS Word at school based on what they knew of OpenOffice at home.
Kids are intelligent. You should not be in the business of teaching kids Microsoft Word or Excel
Re:This is about the kids! (Score:2)
Obviously, Slashdot is raging full of declarations of w