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Vista RC2: More Refined, But Still Not Perfect 217

Posted by kdawson
from the is-it-soup-yet? dept.
jcatcw writes, "Scot Finnie continues his lovehate relationship with Windows Vista. He installed the latest beta, RC2, on three machines. First problem: drivers — too many of them that should be available just aren't. User Access Control remains annoying and Vista's Software Protection Platform puts antipiracy above user security. Software compatibility is still in need even at this late date. However, previous problems with the Media Center were absent." And turnitover writes to point us to PC Mag's RC2 review. Their bottom line is that they expect an RC2+ or even an RC3 before it goes final. Here is PC Mag's slide show.

Update: 10/09 19:33 GMT by kd : michigano writes: "This late in the game and Microsoft has pulled firewire support from their OS! No one knows if its permanent."
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Vista RC2: More Refined, But Still Not Perfect

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  • Perfect? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Klaidas (981300) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:19PM (#16367261)
    Still Not Perfect
    First thing - it's a RC
    Second thing - This RC is more like a beta :)
    And well, when was anything perfect?
    There's always more work to be done for everything, including vista
    • Re:Perfect? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by grammar fascist (239789) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:24PM (#16367339) Homepage
      No kidding. These people expect too much. What do they want? A release candidate that's actually fit for release?

      Sheesh.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by stubear (130454)
        ummmm...note the candidate part. That means it's being judged for quality todeterminf if it in fact is good enough for release. This goes beyond the beta stage because the RC is feature complete, unlike a beta which still has bits missing and features that either need to be refined or added/removed.
        • Re:Perfect? (Score:4, Insightful)

          by gardyloo (512791) on Monday October 09, 2006 @04:15PM (#16369141)
          This goes beyond the beta stage because the RC is feature complete

              Erm... Like support for firewire?
          • This goes beyond the beta stage because the RC is feature complete.

            Strange. In my book, Alpha means feature complete, beta means most things should be workable, and RC means that bugs are hard to find.

            Looks like Windows Update will be the saving grace of Vista...

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by noamsml (868075)
              Actually, I think that it's as the following: Alphas are NOT feature complete, but are vaguely usable. Betas are feature complete, but not fully refined. RCs are considered pretty much fit for release, but need some more testing.
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by DittoBox (978894)

        Yes. That's the point of an RC. RC builds are candidates for release and as such are Feature Complete. If any show-stoppers are found then they fix them and release another RC build. If, after a reasonable amount of time, no more show-stoppers are found then the RC is retagged and reversioned as the final build and subsequently published.

        Release Candidates are supposed to be fit for release, if they aren't then changes are made to make them fit for release. Hence the term "feature complete" (depending on

      • RC v SP (Score:4, Funny)

        by Alaren (682568) on Monday October 09, 2006 @03:29PM (#16368353)

        No, no, "fit for release" is the by-line for Service Pack 2. According to the Microsoft Versioning Procedural Handbook:

        Beta: Alpha, minus the codename
        RC1: Users will QA for us!
        RC2: Users who were disgusted by RC1 will QA for us some more if we change the version number
        Release: If we wait any longer, our stock will suffer
        SP1: In the F/OSS world they call this the "stable" build

        RC1 switched me to Ubuntu. Too late for RC2 to change my mind.

      • by EXTomar (78739) on Monday October 09, 2006 @05:18PM (#16370189)
        With naming conventions like this, it is starting to get close to Street Fighter levels of awesomenessocity. Next up: "Microsoft Windows Vista: Release Canidate 2 Beta Final Alpha Turbo 4...Professional!"
      • by westlake (615356)
        These people expect too much. What do they want? A release candidate that's actually fit for release?

        Who cares if you call it an RC or a Beta? If you are developing hardware or software for the Vista platform you are good to go and that is all that matters.

  • Drivers... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by crossmr (957846) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:20PM (#16367273) Journal
    Drivers are done on a per company basis. Since vista isn't out, there is no reason to expect official support of any kind on a particular device. As far as piracy controls go... There has to be an exchagne of money there somewhere. Microsoft has more than enough money to tell DRM companies to screw off, so they're getting compensation of some kind. Likely exclusive contract extensions from places like Sony, and other perks to ensure certain DRM compliance.

  • by cojsl (694820) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:21PM (#16367289) Homepage
    I have a bench machine that I've tested with Betas1&2 and RC1&2. All except for Beta2 have been pretty bug free, but RC2 fails at the "testing hardware" dialog during install, and after reboot will not give me the Aeroglass option, unlike all previous versions. I'll do some digging later this week to see how to force a re-test of hardware for compatibility, but this was dissapointing after 3 functional previous releases
    • To be honest, the only problem I had with this RC is: after being on for 3 days, it went to sleep and never woke up. (power save). After a hard reset, the registry was corrupt or missing and repair did not work.

      On the plus side, the XP installation on the same box could access the Vista files.

      I havent had the time to reinstall and test further, but...
    • by Khuffie (818093)
      I had good luck with RC2. The only issue I had with RC1 was that Media Player wouldn't play avi files very smoothly, and media center would crash whenever I open my video library. They've been fixed in RC2.
  • by suv4x4 (956391) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:22PM (#16367319)
    No time for more refined. Unfortunately that's it.

    It's obvious there's lots of patchwork in it. I browse the control panel and display properties and get the same feeling I have when looking at work I did in the last minute with a glue and duct tape.

    IE7 still crashes like mad on Google Maps for some reason, and what's with the single tab display properties? What's the point of a tab bar, when you have always one single tab in it? We'll never know.

    My Wacom tablet works terribly with Vista newfound tabletPC intelligence, it keep sassuming clicks I never have done, I had to go and basically disable all smart features and it still is funky (I can barely use a combo box with my Wacom in Vista).

    It's apparent they'll be shipping it to the factory in few days either way, so I'm just hoping once they're done, they start working on a SP1 to be done for the January release that will fix all this mess.
    • by arthurpaliden (939626) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:38PM (#16367575)
      Vistas' not done till Google won't run......
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by 6Yankee (597075)
      What's the point of a tab bar, when you have always one single tab in it?

      Perhaps a subtle way of saying to your users: "Pssst. You can open up tabs." If they're hidden by default (as, for example, in Firefox), a user could go for months or even longer without even knowing they were there.

      The cynic in me (see sig) wonders if it's actually because the rendering gets b0rked when you reduce the window height to display the tabs...
    • and what's with the single tab display properties? What's the point of a tab bar, when you have always one single tab in it? We'll never know.

      The answer is that the code to modify display properties is specially crafted and actually requires that it be displayed in a tab. This is true for a lot of applets in Windows. There are explanations for it from the Vista shell team at their blog site's forums [shellrevealed.com].

      There's a lot of creative reasons why Windows still looks like Windows 3.1 and Windows 95 and does so

  • Love? Hate? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by webword (82711)
    Who cares about love and hate ?

    What matters if it delivers value. What matters if it meets the requirements. What matters if it is usable. What matters is if it delivers on the promise. What matters is support. And so on and so forth...

    • by rumith (983060)
      What matters is ignorance of 90% Windows users. What matters is nobody knows about alternatives, and nobody cares. What matters is that every single one of them who has the money will sooner or later switch to Vista to keep up with the Johns. What matters is that too many people will do what they think every "law obedient, god fearing taxpayer" should - buy Vista, that is. And finally, what matters is that very soon most software vendors, especially bigger ones, will be 'convinced' by Microsoft to develop V
  • One good thing about vista, crackers and wormware writers will start focusing on that and, hopefully, leave my PC alone :o)

    • by suv4x4 (956391)
      One good thing about vista, crackers and wormware writers will start focusing on that and, hopefully, leave my PC alone :o)
      [ Reply to This ]


      Crackers concentrate on the weakest link, not on the toughest. Old (and unpatched) Windows releases are what they target, Vista will be targeted only if it's significantly easy to exploit (which, if we believe the features, won't be the case).
      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by ackthpt (218170) *

        Crackers concentrate on the weakest link, not on the toughest. Old (and unpatched) Windows releases are what they target, Vista will be targeted only if it's significantly easy to exploit (which, if we believe the features, won't be the case).

        They also attack where the greatest number of targets will be. If there's a significant number of vista machines on the net they'll be toiling away trying to break in, I have no doubt they will succede.

  • Better security = annoyance

  • by nine-times (778537) <nine.times@gmail.com> on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:30PM (#16367459) Homepage

    Let's ignore people's feelings about Microsoft for a second. A hypothetical software developer has made a lot of changes to their operating system, rewriting a lot of internals, and making huge changes to their UI. Who here is expecting that this hypothetical software release will be "perfect" when it goes gold?

    At best, even assuming Microsoft is a great software developer, there will be bugs and problems when it goes out the door. I don't believe that should be our question. My questions are, Is it usable? Will it increase my productivity over Windows XP? Does the new UI offer something beyond being "new"? Are there new features that I'll actually want to use?

    Or to bang all of those questions into one super question, Are there any reasons why I'll want to upgrade? If I could add a second, it'd be, Are there any reasons why I won't want to upgrade?

    But if you tell me that there aren't drivers for everything yet, well of course there aren't because it's not released yet, but there will be drivers for most things soon. If you tell me there's some little bug on your particular machine, that doesn't bother me. Release broadens the diversity of hardware that software is running on, and so even if everything was perfect in the beta stage, there will be some bugs.

    • by garcia (6573) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:48PM (#16367717) Homepage
      I can answer both of those for you right now:

      Are there any reasons why I'll want to upgrade?

      Yes.

      If I could add a second, it'd be, Are there any reasons why I won't want to upgrade?

      Yes.

      Of course there are always going to be "features" you'll want to upgrade for and there will be "features" (like DRM) that you will want to avoid. The question is how many people will hold out until the DRM "features" will force them to "upgrade" to the new OS because nothing else will work anymore.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by TheNetAvenger (624455)
      Ok, here is some advice from someone in the know...

      Vista will not be 100% perfect on every machine. It will have less driver support and optimization than XP at first. This is a known fact, since so much of the internal of the OS has been rewritten.

      XP had an advantage with drivers, because the win98/win2k driver generation worked flawlessly on XP for the most part. Vista is is only 'partially' true, because if the drivers are poorly written or try to do unsecure things, Vista won't let them do it.

      There is a
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by nine-times (778537)

        There is also a new level of stability in Vista. For example the WDDM video drivers are not only User level (for the most part), but you can literally unplug your Video card, the computer will make the plug and play sound and screen will go blank, and then plug in another video card or the same one while the system is running, and Vista will not fail and if needed restart the Video driver or install the new and just keep going. This is something that would have been impossible in previous versions of Window

        • Is that safe from the hardware side of things? I think I'd be hesitant to pull a PCI card from a live motherboard whether my OS could cope with it or not.



          Well, actually it isn't the 'saftest' thing to do, but does demonstrate the OSes ability to recover from fairly major hardware problems. The design is to recover from a driver/hardware malfunction and not leave the user stranded with no display if for some reason the Video driver or card goes wrong.

          XP had some ability to recover from video driver failures,
  • by Timesprout (579035) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:30PM (#16367467)
    MS could release builds amazing for their quality and /. would still find something to moan about. I have yet to see any major engineering project work perfectly out the door first time, there are always unforseen issues and problems. After the release of the first service pack is when I will start looking at the capabilities or lack thereof with vista.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Chaffar (670874)
      I have yet to see any major engineering project work perfectly out the door first time[...]
      So you're saying that I shouldn't expect buildings to stand the first time they're built? Or cars to drive without breaking down during the first week ? Or those projects aren't as "major" as Windows is?
      • by Surt (22457)
        You definitely shouldn't expect buildings to stand the first time they're built. There's not more than a handful of buildings that have stood even a thousand years so far. Whereas a lot of Microsoft software has executed literally trillions of software instructions without error.
      • by Tim C (15259)
        Or those projects aren't as "major" as Windows is?

        Mechanics and engineering are extremely well understood disciplines that have been practiced for thousands of years.

        Software "engineering" isn't, and hasn't.

        In those respects at least, no, putting up a building or making a car is *not* as major as Windows, or a Linux distro, or indeed any complex application.
    • by rowanxmas (569908)
      I have yet to see any major engineering project work perfectly out the door first time. most bridges work well, amazing what testing can do :)
  • by WillAffleckUW (858324) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:31PM (#16367489) Homepage Journal
    I was just reading on Gripeline that Microsoft is suing a hacker who has already hacked the DRM components of WinVista.

    Inquiring minds with sharpies want to know ...
  • by Randolpho (628485) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:36PM (#16367541) Homepage Journal
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the same guy who first bitched about the UAC always asking for passwords to do anything administrative? (read: mimics SU, only more annoyingly) Didn't Microsoft respond by taking the passwords out?

    That was a bad move on both parties' account, IMO. There's a /. post still on the main page that shows why an annoying UAC (with password typing required) would be a Good Thing(tm). Where is it.... where is it.... ah!

    IE7 Toolbar Mayhem [slashdot.org]
    • If you run as an "administrator" you are really a normal user, however when the system requires privilege escalation, your credentials are valid for that. So you don't need to enter a password, just give it the ok with a click. If you run as a normal user, nothing changes, except that you don't have credentials so you need to enter a password of those that do.

      Basically you get to choose how you want it. Now you are right in that normal users won't use the password option but you do have to be realistic here
    • Well, I'm giving Longhorn Server a go and, once you enable UAC (it has to be actually enabled, like su), it'll prompt for admin's password when you try to elevate a software the same way gksudo works in Ubuntu (but, of course, it asks for the admin password - not yours). That makes me wonder if they actually kept it in Vista, but disabled the option with a regkey.

      People talk crap about UAC, but I actually like to know when a given piece of software wants admin priviledges - something I never had on windows
  • by ShadowsHawk (916454) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:38PM (#16367567)
    Besides bundled with new systems, who would actually buy Vista? I expect that we will see a slow adoption rate since most users are perfectly content with XP.
    • by jfengel (409917) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:54PM (#16367799) Homepage Journal
      Well, given that something like a half-billion PCs are sold each year, that's a bit like asking, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

      They'll also sell a lot of Vista licenses to offices whose IT shops want to maintain only a single platform. Once they start having to buy new PCs with Vista, they'll want to upgrade the entire shop. The larger the ratio of users to IT, the more they're going to standardize their systems. It's a convenience for them, like replacing the lightbulbs all at once rather than waiting for them to burn out.

      Individual users will continue to use their XP installations for perhaps 3-5 years. Over time bits of hardware fail and it's easier for many to replace the entire thing, especially when that elderly PC starts to feel pokey in comparison to the new computers; the new software will find ways to use the extra CPU power. And with a Windows installation, it may not be an illusion of contrast: between registry/DLL bloat in legal software, and the many users who will be infected with malware, it may actually be slower. Cleaning the OS and replacing components gradually becomes less efficient than just buying a shiny new one.
      • They'll also sell a lot of Vista licenses to offices whose IT shops want to maintain only a single platform. Once they start having to buy new PCs with Vista, they'll want to upgrade the entire shop. The larger the ratio of users to IT, the more they're going to standardize their systems. It's a convenience for them, like replacing the lightbulbs all at once rather than waiting for them to burn out.

        This isn't true, especially not for such a major shift that Vista's bringing. It requires training for the

    • by 0racle (667029)
      People who want to play DX10 games. People who like the latest and greatest of everything. People.

      And admins who want to administer printers using the Printer management tool that came with 2003R2 without logging into a 2003 server.
      • by cp.tar (871488)
        People who want to play DX10 games.

        Why do I feel I'll play them in CeDeGa?

        One thing's for sure, I'm not upgrading the XP I have here for gaming purposes to Vista.
        It's Jabba the Hutt of operating systems.
        I mean, how many GiBs does a default install consume? 12? 20? And that just for a spiffy interface, Notepad, Paint and Solitaire?

        • by andreyw (798182)
          Why do you capitialize Cedega in such a weird way? It's not an acronym. It used to be called WineX.
          • by cp.tar (871488)

            I've seen it spelled like that.

            If I'm wrong, I thank you for the information.

        • by Tim C (15259)
          I mean, how many GiBs does a default install consume?

          I might be wrong, but I seem to remember that it was somewhat less than 4.

          Compare that with the 6.5GB+ of UT 2004.
    • by nurb432 (527695)
      If you have a corporate MOLP agreement you have to upgrade within a set timeframe as your license to use what you have now goes away.

      And if that means more servers ( for their licensing schemes ) or new hardware, well, it sux to be you.

      So to answer the question, lots of people will in time.
  • by UR30 (603039) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:42PM (#16367619) Homepage
    It seems that Vista divides testers in two categories, those who find - to their suprise - they like it, and others who get yet another confirmation of how bad Windows is.
  • Random thoughts (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bogie (31020) on Monday October 09, 2006 @02:47PM (#16367705) Journal
    Photo Gallery needs sharpen! Somewhere there is a funny picture of how inconsistent the interface still can be with button and arrows moving around per application, Wish I could find that link again. Are the minimize, maximize, and close buttons still all screwed up in RC2? http://adacosta.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!E8E5CC039 D51E3DB!6931.entry [live.com]

    Do translucent windows add anything to the use experience?
    User: "Oh look, at the top of my window through a .25" space I can see part of the text of an icon on my desktop! How very useful!"

    But I will say it's coming bugs and all so you all might as well get used to it. Just think of how much money you'll make installing and fixing Vista? Just think of how little I'll be paying for Vista thanks to having MSDN via work...Big kisses to MS now!
  • Damned RAID (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Kyokugenryu (817869)
    I'd love to try it, as I have it on DVD and I got a key, but my Silicon Image 3112 Raid Controller isn't supported!
    • I have the same controller. Just need to download the drivers, load them onto a USB drive (no need for floppy) and when it gets to the stage where it asks for a partition to load on click the Load Drivers button to load your drivers. Poof! it now will see your drive.
      I've no idea why the RAID controller folks didn't work harder to get their drivers into the box.
  • by TheGratefulNet (143330) on Monday October 09, 2006 @03:08PM (#16368039)
    here's what I wrote about it (I wrote on photog forum since that was my main interest - photo processing stuff):

    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?for um=1004&thread=20378448 [dpreview.com]

    in short, these things didn't work for me:

    - avira antivir (threat to MS on their own 'defender' ?)
    - monaco optix xr pro (screen calibrator 'puck'; aka 'colorimeter'. pro photog guys NEED this)
    - oem nero6 (I need that for lightscribe work. MS doesn't do LS, I don't think, and sadly neither does unix)
    - cisco vpn (I use that to login to work remotely. this is a must-have for me.)

    it also didn't like my epson scanner (1640su). a very standard and high quality flatbed scanner - not on the supported list.

    it took 4 hours to do an upgrade (at the MS building, on sunday, yesterday) on an amd64 x2 3800 dualcore system. sigh.

    its good that I cloned my disk before I brought my box over to them. that disk will get scrubbed and put back on the shelf and I'm back to using XP for pshop/cs2 work - where ALL my hardware and sw continues to work.

    zero reason to upgrade to vista. zero. in fact, it brings me backwards and forces me to re-buy perfectly good hardware. that color puck was $300. I will NOT be re-buying THAT again - it works fine in xp and does what its supposed to.

    vista is very close to shipping. and there are MAJOR failings. this does not bode well.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by benzapp (464105)

      - avira antivir (threat to MS on their own 'defender' ?)
      - monaco optix xr pro (screen calibrator 'puck'; aka 'colorimeter'. pro photog guys NEED this)
      - oem nero6 (I need that for lightscribe work. MS doesn't do LS, I don't think, and sadly neither does unix)
      - cisco vpn (I use that to login to work remotely. this is a must-have for me.)


      This kind of software almost NEVER works with a new OS.

      vista is very close to shipping. and there are MAJOR failings. this does not bode well.

      Come on. We've had 12 years of m
  • by dingen (958134) on Monday October 09, 2006 @03:18PM (#16368171)
    Browsing the slideshow, I found this beauty [pcmag.com].

    Please, somebody pinch me. IE is clogging up 1 GB of memory in the final build of Vista before launch?! Well, it explains the insane sys reqs though.
    • by Randolpho (628485)
      Look at the CPU usage: 46 percent. I'm betting he was tasking IE at the time, maybe with a very large web page or XML file. Or maybe with a webpage that loaded some wonky, memory-leaky javascript.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by dr00g911 (531736)
      I can confirm that a bare metal install of Vista on several 2GB RAM test machines that I have tie up 780mb of RAM without a single app open other than the task manager.

      Vista will not be ending up on any of my renderfarm machines for that very reason.
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by ThinkFr33ly (902481)
        The amount of RAM used by Vista varies by the following:

        1.) Available Physical RAM - the more RAM you have installed, the more it will use by default because it enables certain in-memory caching features and other performance related boosting features. I have a machine with 512MB of RAM and RC2 installed. On startup, with nothing else open, it uses about 320MB of RAM.

        2.) Current Memory Pressure - Windows will relinquish memory that it is uses if it detects that applications need it. Sometimes this is throug
  • by garyebickford (222422) <gar37bic@NospaM.gmail.com> on Monday October 09, 2006 @03:40PM (#16368501)
    I used to run a "Software Quality Assurance Workshop" at Tektronix - I was an SQA engineer at the time, so I know a little bit about the topic. In researching this subject and also over time since then, I learned some interesting facts, which should be enough to scare the Vista SQA team.

    1. There are strong mathematical reasons why it is near-to-impossible to find more than about 20% of the bugs in a system (of any significant size) using black box testing.

    I don't recall the proof. As I recall the most important factor is algorithmic complexity - every additional two-way branch doubles the number of possible paths through the control flow. For perspective, a program with just ten branches requires 1024 different tests, for EACH grouping of input data.

    Data issues provide more complexity. Heuristics may help discover as many of the pathological cases as possible. For example, every input data element (variable) must be checked at the 'fenceposts' (ends of the range), inside the range, and outside the range. Inside the range, there may be regions or single values that can affect the usage of other variables (e.g., angles might be defined in [0,2Pi] but tan (pi/2) is pathological), so those are another kind of fenceposts that must be discovered and tested for.

    (There are many resources online. Wikipedia/Software Quality [wikipedia.org] is a reasonable place to start.

    2. Given a 'good quality' development system using techniques such as structured programming, code walkthroughs, manual and automated code analysis, and some other things, about 80% of the bugs will be in the original design document. (Another justification for Extreme Programming? [extremeprogramming.org])

    Interestingly, something like 50% of these may be arguments regarding usage. "It's not a bug, it's a feature!" is often a valid argument - a 'screwed up menu' for one user may be just perfect for another. Of course, providing options to the user as X11 does, is often itself considered a 'misfeature' for the general public, if not an outright bug.

    3. Given the same system, only about 20% of the total resources (time, budget) will be spent in the development phase. As I recall, about 20% -> planning and design phases, 20% to development, 40% during SQA, and the last 20% after release.

    4. Again with the same system, the designed, QA'd, tested, and released code will have approximately 1 bug every 200 lines of code (while there are arguments about using Source Lines of Code [wikipedia.org] as a programmer performance metric, it can be more easily justified for this purpose, as we can assume that most languages will have about the same level of ambiguity regarding what is a line of code.) This ratio has been empirically shown to run true across all types of programming, from assembler to 4G database code. I recall reading a couple of years ago that Microsoft admitted a rate of one bug per 80 lines of code, but I don't have a citation, so I can't say for sure.

    All modern OS have about the same number of lines (according to the above), using the same metrics - about 30 million. This is apparently true for XP and for various recent distributions of Linux - Redhat, Debian, and others, including the applications that came with the distributions. Therefore, every OS ships to the customer containing something on the order of 150,000 bugs. I once listened to a presentation by the then-head of IBM's OS software support group - I think for OS/360, but it might have been a later product. They released a new version every three months, and customers found another 2000 bugs every time.

    A probable advantage of Unix-like systems is the relative independence of different applications and components. Each application presumes less about its environment, and so can be less susceptible to problems caused by interactions within the environment. This helps to break the algori
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by bmajik (96670)
      Disclosure: I am an SQA employee at Microsoft, albeit not in the Windows org.

      One thing that F/OSS advocates (rightly) point out (everytime there is a windows vs linux security bug count study) is that not all bugs are equal. While defects/KLOC is interesting in a variety of ways, it is not nececssarily a good indicator of how well the software meets the needs of the user(s), and ultimately, how well the software meets the needs of the user(s) is what matters (its what matters to users, and its what matters
  • Windows XP wasn't a perfect gem when it came out either. Infact, I remember installing XP on my machine in the first month it came out, and it didn't work very well with my hardware. There were no drivers for my Voodoo3 graphics card, and it took a few months before some users hacked up some working Xp drivers for it(there never was any official support for it from 3dfx)

    I kept using Windows98 until maybe 5 or 6 months down the road when XP became usable for the masses.. by this time all the major software c
  • Questions... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jesterpilot (906386) on Monday October 09, 2006 @03:57PM (#16368829) Homepage
    * Is it possible now to rename, move or delete a document when it's in use by an application?
    * Is disk-defragmentation history?
    * Does Vista provide a software manager connected to massive software-libraries on the internet, so we can install and update applications en masse?
    * Does Vista have multiple desktops?
    * Can we choose between different desktop environments?
  • Firewire is NOT gone (Score:4, Informative)

    by ChronoReverse (858838) on Monday October 09, 2006 @04:00PM (#16368869)
    Right now I'm running RC2 and the firewire controller on my Asus A8N-VM is right there in the device manager. However, Microsoft has removed the firewire networking that nobody used.
    • by Marcion (876801)
      >Microsoft has pulled firewire support from their OS! No one knows if its permanent ...

      >Firewire is NOT gone

      Shame, Firewire is fantastic, I was hoping that all the fab external firewire drives would become as cheap as cheaps for the rest of us who do not use Windows.
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Wizard Drongo (712526)
      Nobody uses it?? Since when. I find firewire the nicest way (by far) to network two machines when one of them is already configured for ethernet into another network. This is particularly true when (for instance) I want to transfer large files from my laptop to a machine on my Uni's (and before that, my college's) network. Then there is also the fact that most pc's lack gigabit ethernet, so firewire is at the least, 4 times faster for transfer speed. Which, when coupled with the above ease of connectivit
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Al Dimond (792444)
      Yay. 1394 networking, as Beck might say, makes me wanna smoke crack. At my job I use 1394 for driver debugging; if you boot into 1394-debug mode and 1394 networking comes on it kills your debug connection. So I disable the 1394 network adapter, but every time I move the HD to a different system (very frequently) it becomes re-enabled again (even when I use the same damn 1394 card). So there's always at least one wasted boot, or hangs because a breakpoint is hit after the debug connection has been killed
  • Call me crazy, but perhaps MS doesn't include * drivers by default as an incentive for the masses to use the final build instead of Beta2. You kind of have to keep SOMETHING back... otherwise why would anyone buy it at all? They could all just use the free Beta2 copies...
    • You kind of have to keep SOMETHING back... otherwise why would anyone buy it at all? They could all just use the free Beta2 copies...

      The betas are programmed to expire in about 9 months (June 2007, IIRC). Withholding drivers is dumb because it withholds part of the experience of the OS.

    • by Marcion (876801)
      Well don't forget that the pre-releases blow up after 6 months.
  • by davmoo (63521)
    I must admit I get a chuckle out of a lot of the posts here that bitch about the bugs in Vista RC2.

    The funny thing is I have yet to see a Linux distribution release come out bug-free either. In fact, in the 12 years I've been playing with Linux, I've seen at least a handful of releases that, a month later, had hundreds of megs of "bug fixes". And I remember at least one distribution that, upon its final release, destroyed certain CD recorders. I won't even bring up the fact that I have PCs that Ubuntu wo
  • FTA...

    "If validation code, written by Microsoft, decides that your installation of Windows Vista has been pirated, it turns off the Aero interface and a minor performance technology called ReadyBoost. I'm okay with that. But I am absolutely not okay with the third punitive measure: The disabling of Windows Defender, Microsoft's new onboard anti-spyware utility. Other punitive measures according to published reports include the disabling of Internet Explorer 7 and Windows Media Player."

    You know this is

  • No firewire support?

    My firewire external drives won't like that very much.

    How much more complicated can firewire be, than USB 2.0? I mean, the code already exists and works for XP, they're supporting USB removable drives, how many monkeys does it take to port a few extra routines?
  • At this point, does it really matter?

    hardcore 'Pirates' will get around it
    large corporates dont care
    average home users will have to upgrade anyway and most of the pcs they buy will already have the microosft tax.

    The only losers are small businesses caught in the middle. And these days they have more options open to them, and can 'just say no' if they want.

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