China Files Case Against Intel's Wireless Network 274
Krishna Dagli writes "China has launched a case against American chipmaker Intel's near-monopoly on encryption standards for wireless local area network (WLAN) equipment, state press reported Monday."
Can we? (Score:5, Interesting)
-1 Lack of detail.
Re:Can we? (Score:4, Insightful)
China has accused the makers of the technology developed by the chipmaking giant Intel of unethical behaviour and has asked the International Standards Organization (ISO) to review the case, Xinhua news reported.
It says that the American Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), actual makers of the technology, broke ISO rules when its national bodies voted on new technology to mend security loopholes in the WLAN standard.
China now wants the ISO to investigate the fast-track process to determine "whether the ethical and procedural rules and principles have indeed been violated and whether the ballots have been unfairly influenced by those ethical and procedural violations".
That is what has been done, it chose new technology and in doing so apparently broke rules on voting for procedures.
Re:Can we? (Score:2, Flamebait)
They don't like real crypto. (Score:2)
Re:They don't like real crypto. (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, yes, China's motives are quite obvious.
But what they say intel did has some merit don't you think? After all, if Intel did something against ISOs rules, then we may be looking at WAPI as the new standard.
Re:They don't like real crypto. (Score:2)
Even if WAPI (the Chinese government backed organization) is correct in its accusations, it doesn't mean that WAPI should be adopted as a standard. Presumably, the voting process would be repeated, assuming of course that the Chinese go through with that.
Re:They don't like real crypto. (Score:2)
Re:They don't like real crypto. (Score:3, Interesting)
"Insulting". You have to read the article to really get a sense of it. I don't know how much of it's a show and how much of it is really that they ... feel they've lost face. Ok. It's real. Face matters in Chinese culture, a lot, and this is a combination of homegrown startup t
Re:They don't like real crypto. (Score:2)
Well, why it isn't insane ravings about how they got screwed, in diplomatic speek, it is quite hard. It maybe that who ever filed the suite or released details did so as if they were opening diplomatic dialogs. Could it be that Intel is so big they are treated as diplomats in china?
I agree with all that you are saying. I just wanted to add that maybe the problems were
Re:They don't like real crypto. (Score:2, Informative)
Face matters in Chinese culture, a lot,
Nah you're thinking about Japan. Face doesn't matter a damn to the Chinese, they left that behind along with the bowing after the "popular revolution", too like the older imperialistic ways (I know whereof I speak, I learned most of my Mandarin in China). Whats happening here is that China has been believing its own propaganda too much, and honestly believed the rest of the world would bend over because of the innate superiority of their offering and the fact that
Re:They don't like real crypto. (Score:5, Interesting)
To say that you learned "most of your Mandarin in China" to me seems like a clever way of making the Slashdot masses consider you an authority. Clever because it deliberately omits how much Mandarin you know -- and without knowing anything at all about you I would bet a great deal that it's nearly zilch. Why? Because in order to learn to speak a language well, you must do more than take classes and read books -- you must interact on a personal level with speakers of that language. For someone who presumably does not have native prowess in a language closely related to Mandarin, the language is relatively difficult to learn, which would imply that, if you spoke the language well, you must have spent a lot of time interacting with Chinese people. As someone who has been doing this for quite some time now, I think I can state with reasonable certitude that no one open-minded enough to undertake this would come away from the experience with as narrow-minded and unnuanced an understanding as you appear to have.
Mandarin has so many face-related terms and sayings it is absolutely staggering. I can't speak with any authority on the Japanese interpretation, but I did study the Japanese language for five years while in school and I wasn't exposed to anywhere near the same lexical diversity. But I'll freely admit that I never spoke Japanese well, whereas I speak Mandarin very well.
Another poster said that the Chinese "treat each other like shit", or somesuch, but to me this is a classic example of a westerner using western metrics of politeness and propriety to judge the actions of people with a fundamentally different cultural background. Something similar occurs with the Japanese. There is a fascination with all things Japanese in the geek community -- I'll admit I don't understand it well myself -- but I'm frequently told by all sorts of people that the Japanese are exceptionally polite and well mannered. This is a tremendously two dimensional way of looking at an entire population of people.
Let's make one thing clear here: the percentage of assholes in any particular group is relatively constant. What makes a person an asshole is their intent -- their knowing willingness to insult, degrade, or upset others. A westerner not familiar with Chinese social norms observes inter-Chinese interaction and is surprised by their apparent penchant to treat each other like dirt. What he does not understand is that many things not acceptable in western culture (and even here I am generalizing, as neither Chinese nor Western culture as such are homogenous at all) are acceptable in Chinese culture, and vice-versa. In China, a Chinese person says something to someone else and thinks nothing of it -- he does not consider it rude and did not have any malicious intent whatsoever, and in turn the person who hears it thinks little of it. The same situation, but in the West: exactly the same words are exchanged, but the listener becomes tremendously upset, because in the context of western culture, saying such a thing is a violation of accepted social norms and as such only someone with malicious intent would say them. Conversely, the Chinese often say that westerners don't need much face, by which they mean that they are not hao mianzi, that we put up with all sorts of insulting situations that no Chinese person would ever put up with. I've been involved in street fights on several occasions because of face.
To get back to the Japanese, Westerners
Re:They don't like real crypto. (Score:4, Interesting)
I call bullshit. I've lived in China for almost half a decade now, I speak Mandarin at a nearly native level, and I can tell you that face means a great deal to the Chinese. You are guilty of the very mistake you accuse the OP of making: conflating Japanese and Chinese culture.
... but I'm frequently told by all sorts of people that the Japanese are exceptionally polite and well mannered.
Well I honestly don't know where you've been hiding for the last five years, so I can't call anything, but thats because I prefer to stick to the facts I know. Face means as muich to the Chinese as it does to a westerner, in that no one likes to be made to look a fool. The OP was referring to the convoluted and elaborate rules of "face" present in Japanese culture, of which you appear to be totally unaware. If you had been aware, you wouldn't have made that comparison.
and without knowing anything at all about you I would bet a great deal that it's nearly zilch.
I'm not going to get in a pissing match about levels of Mandarin, you seem to be more full of urine than me; you appear to be attacking me for a full paragraph there without any basis whatsoever, except that your opinions conflict with my observations. Thats called an ad-hominem. And for the record, I speak over eight languages with a varying degree of fluency, including some I can almost guarantee you have never heard of.
Mandarin has so many face-related terms and sayings it is absolutely staggering.
So has English. Egg on his face, brass balls, guts, gung ho, I could give you a few hundred. Your point?
the Chinese "treat each other like shit", or somesuch, but to me this is a classic example of a westerner using western metrics of politeness and propriety to judge the actions of people with a fundamentally different cultural background.
Treated like shit is treated like shit. Just because you were raised up in a community of slave owners doesn't make it right.
There is a fascination with all things Japanese in the geek community -- I'll admit I don't understand it well myself
Hot chicks and cosplay. Yes its a simplistic way of looking at a culture. It is not the entirety of their views however and you would do well to educate yourself as to what those views are before you go making accusations. Thats what I would call a tremendously two dimensional way of looking at "the geek community".
the percentage of assholes in any particular group is relatively constant. What makes a person an asshole is their intent -- their knowing willingness to insult, degrade, or upset others.
Not only is that not true, it occurs to me that people tend to be assholes based on how they view you. So your metrics here are off from the start. But carry on.
The same situation, but in the West: exactly the same words are exchanged, but the listener becomes tremendously upset, because in the context of western culture, saying such a thing is a violation of accepted social norms and as such only someone with malicious intent would say them.
Bollocks. Here in Ireland, you want to hear some of the locals, they would make a sailor blush. Thats also part of western culture, because you see the west consists of more than just America... Are we back to those two dimensional views?
demonstrating, I hope, that it is not that the Japanese are polite per se but rather that Westerners observing them lack the necessary knowledge to accurately describe them as such.
Why are we running down the Japanese now? Why are they even in this discussion? And the chinese have just as much of the same problem, during saint patricks day they have a great laugh at all the Irish running around wearing green hats. If you have lived in China, you'll know what that means. Not that anyone gives a rats ass over here.
Believe me when I say that the concept of face is important to the Chine
china? whaa? (Score:2, Insightful)
also, how is it intels fault theyve put a ton of money into researching it? (that may be slightly ignorant of the actual facts, but if they wrote the standards, it stands to reason they created it)
Re:china? whaa? (Score:5, Informative)
Nothing to do with patent law.
Short version. IEEE submitted 80211i, China submitted WAPI to ISO to be international wireless encryption standards. IEEE won, WAPI lost. China is complaining that IEEE did something bad during the lead up to the voting process. No news sources are reporting what that something was as far as I can see.
So we have nebulous claims of interference in the ISO process. No more, no less.
(I'm not sure whether I dislike/distrust Intel or China more)
Re:china? whaa? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:china? whaa? (Score:3, Funny)
Good point.
You're quite right that China has behaved far more atrociously than intel.
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
Hey, they're just taking advantage of local labor standards. Maybe even Chinese labor standards.
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
OK? OK? Have you no moral sense whatsoever? Or must you submit every ethical dilemma to "Ask Slashdot?".
Maybe you should consider the following questions before posing such questions.
What's terrorism?
What's "ok"?
What does "for money" mean?
And don't go quoting the dictionary, Mr Anonymous Coward. Plagiarists will receive a failing grade.
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
I've often wondered about this. IEEE and I think ISO are two different groups. Even if it isn't, The types of software pattents we are seeing could includ the entire standard. I'm not sure if that is right (moraly or legaly).
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
The mind-blowingly stunning part is that Communists are complaining about someone else's monopoly...
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
Re:china? whaa? (Score:2)
China simply doesn't want foreign companies to hold the dominant IP on one of the network infrastructure protocols, as doing so would mean that billions of Chinese customers would have to pay a foreign orgazination (IEEE and Intel) a royalty fee o
Re:china? whaa? Huhh? Welll... (Score:2)
The US arms of government and maybe even a few tech companies worried about losing business to Lenovo. When it was IBM they competed with, it would have probably been unpatriotic to bash IBM. It CERtainly would have been economical suicide, for IBM could have brough all resources to bear against such companies.
But, with it being Lenovo, and with all the
Re:china? whaa? (Score:3, Insightful)
since when does china care about patent law?
Since about the same time as US.
As long as the international balance on Copyrights, Patents etc disfavoured US, it had blissfully ignored them. But as soon as it looked that the trend is reversing usians started to cry foul and became the biggest proponent of the Intelectual Property in the world.
We have this stupid saying in Poland: "Kali steal cow,
Well call the kettle black... (Score:5, Funny)
Hah!
Re:Well call the kettle black... (Score:2)
I find it especially amusing because China is communist. That is, in theory they are supposed to have a total monopoly on EVERYTHING.
Re:Well call the kettle black... (Score:2)
Re:Well call the kettle black... (Score:2)
A chinese man has no relevance in the rest of the world, for a Chinese man only hears what his governement tells him. For reference see:
Furthermore, in China, you simply do not speak out against the state for fear of retribution, as in most communist states.
In America, you are free to voice your opinion - you don't (us
Re:Well call the kettle black... (Score:2)
You guys even re-elected Dubya knowing full well all of the BS that he's pulled.
And in the US, articles this one [spectacle.org] are available for you to read and form your own opinion.
Chinese don't have that option. Take a look at what Google Images host from:
google.cn [google.cn]
vs:
google.ca [google.ca]
Re:Well call the kettle black... (Score:2)
Do you think that difference is worth a hill of beans?
"You guys even re-elected Dubya knowing full well all of the BS that he's pulled."
Still scratching my head over that one. You see we americans are a funny bunch. For a lot of us making sure the gays never got married was more important then torture.
Re:Well call the kettle black... (Score:2)
Chinese Hypocrisy (Score:5, Interesting)
Consider the princelings of China [businessweek.com]. They and their parents are members of the Chinese communist party. These princelings live, for long stretches, in the West and enjoy its freedoms and prosperity. Yet, the parents of the princelings fully support and enforce the draconian Chinese "laws" that crush human rights in China.
I have personally met some of these princelings.
Do they realize their hypocrisy? Yes. Do they care? No.
Here is another, more damning, example. In 2001 in Northern California, the Chinese consulate in San Francisco sponsored an anti-Falun-Gong meeting conducted in Santa Clara, California. Chinese students from San Jose State University, Stanford University, and other neighboring universities, attended the meeting. The Chinese student associations at the respective universities fully supported the anti-Falun-Gong meeting.
These Chinese students enjoy the freedom and prosperity in the West but, actually, support the draconian Chinese "laws" that crush human rights in China.
Do they realize their hypocrisy? Yes. Do they care? No.
By now, you should realize that the authoritarian government in China exists for one reason: the majority of Chinese either support the authoritarian government or are indifferent to it.
Re:Chinese Hypocrisy (Score:2)
NAFTA? (Score:2)
Come now, NAFTA is just as advantageous for large Mexican and Canadian firms as it is for large US firms.
That is, after all, what it's attempting to be: A benefit for the largest of corporations in North America, at the expense of the US and Canadian working class.
See, given the wage equalizing effect it has (bringing US, Canadian, and Mexican wages for various types of work toward an average between t
Re:NAFTA? (Score:3, Informative)
Also there are very few large Canadian firms anymore as they all have
Re:Point of Grandparent Post (Score:2)
Re:Point of Grandparent Post (Score:2)
On the contrary, there are differences of hypocrisy. The magnitude of Chinese hypocrisy is shocking.
This is nitpicky, but for the record: 'on the contrary' means that the truth is the opposite of what you're referring to. The contrary would be that the so-called hypocracy *IS* different to any other country. Your point is one of magnitude, not opposites. Don't misuse the term.
Re:Point of Grandparent Post (Score:2)
I didn't get the memo about (homosexual or not) marriage being a human right. Same for murder.
Falun Gong (Score:2)
To be honest I put Falun Gong in the same bucket as scientology, another cult of personality, so in a way I can see why it is being suppressed by the Chinese. Not that I support killing anyone for their beliefs, but it is the time-honoured solution, and apparently one of those few traditions China has not let go of...
Re:Well call the kettle black... (Score:2, Offtopic)
Re:Well call the kettle black... (Score:2)
Re:Well call the kettle black... (Score:2)
In other news ... (Score:3, Funny)
This is like Freddy Vs Jason (Score:4, Funny)
So, I guess that makes Intel the Jason in this conflict.
LK
Re:This is like Freddy Vs Jason (Score:2)
So, I guess that makes Intel the Jason in this conflict.
What are trying to say that "Intel is a mindless zombie". Well, that does explain the pentium 4 processor and integrated video.
Re:This is like Freddy Vs Jason (Score:2, Interesting)
Also, it's illegal to buy or sell organs in most countries, so it's contributing to the black market problem.
Re:Cult of death? (Score:2, Funny)
(catholics have thier own problems and jewish folks also think its not Kosher)
besides its RUDE to yank chunks of a person out without their permission.
Open standards (Score:2, Insightful)
Exactly how is it better to replace one proprietary standard with another. If they were serious about this, perhaps proposing an open standard would be a bit more constructive.
Re:Open standards (Score:5, Insightful)
companies gripped about.
As for the IEEE - it ISN'T just an American body. The truth is that it has an American aspect (that is certainly large and powerful), but IEEE is an INTERNATIONAL organization. How do I know? - I was a member for 15 years. I've even been involved in IEEE standards creation slightly. This is usually done by company representatives. So if Chineese companies were to send representation to IEEE standards efforts, they would have some influence in same.
You're as likely to Siemens or Alcatel, etc involved in these bodies as you are to see Intel, etc. It is more appropriately a mechanism mostly staffed by professional engineers representing their company's interests that create IEEE standards.
Re:Open standards (Score:2)
Sorry, you sound genuine and knowledgeable but this doesn't parse. China's 'closed' WAPI required disseminating intellectual property, IEEE's 'open' protocol didn't?
Try this... (Score:2)
Re:Try this... (Score:2)
Re:Try this... (Score:2)
Could it be that they haven't given up on WAPI? Can they get the vote revisited?
(How could a secret algorithm ever have become an ISO standard anyway?)
Will cause trouble in DC. (Score:2)
Big Business or China?
Since most of them in DC (GOPer & DEMs) are in love with both whose side do they support?
Re:Will cause trouble in DC. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Will cause trouble in DC. (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/04/05/HNbarre
FTA: "The U.S. government has also weighed in on the issue. U.S. Secretary of Commerce Donald Evans, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell and U.S. Trade Representative Robert Zoellick, sent a letter to senior Chinese government officials in March expressing concern over the implementation of China's WLAN standard and that the move created a dangerous precedent for using standards as a barrier to international trade."
Waiting for the DVD... (Score:3, Funny)
Bizarre (Score:2)
I'm guessing that some person who's company developed the Chinese alternative has an uncle on the Politburo.
If this is the case, it's a shame - there is so much that our governments could do for us if they weren't so corrupt. If this is not the case, then I hope someone will explain wh
Grow up. (Score:5, Insightful)
We've all got our personal opinions on politics and the politics of technology, but if our words are to mean anything, we've got to appeal to higher standards.
Re:Grow up. (Score:2)
There seems to be some anti-communist, racist, and/or anti-foreign element to this, similar to the anti-French sent
Re:Grow up. (Score:2)
Re:Grow up. (Score:2)
But it won't make any difference - we'll get the same sort of drivel next time a story on China, or India, or Europe, or Australia comes around
Can we all get along? (Score:4, Insightful)
Note to slashdot repliers: Enough with the ad hominem attacks. If you don't like what China's doing, talk about what they're doing, not what you like/dislike about China.
Because you reply to no post in particular, and because there is variation of opinion on this topic one could argue that your predictable appeal is ad hominem as well. Strong well supported opinions should be welcome on this forum. "Can we call get along" pablum such as yours just takes up space.
I personally find China's accusation of collusion to be laughable. China cannot easily establish technical standards because (deservedly) no one trusts them.
Re:Grow up. (Score:2)
Re:Grow up. (Score:2)
Still, the Net will be what we choose it to be.
Why the surprise.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why the surprise.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why the surprise.... (Score:2)
Well, yeah, I actually do trust Bejing more than a whole zoo of other countries.
Thats like saying herpes is better than aids. Go herpes!
Re:Why the surprise.... (Score:2)
After thinking about it for a second, it's in the Chinese governement's best interest to know who's using the Internet. If you connect to a secure wireless network, you need to have a key, so someone has to know who you are. You can't arrest dissidents if any idiot with a wireless card can connect to the Internet anonymously.
I'm not saying I agree with how they could use it, but it is in their best interest to have secure wireless.
I dislike the idea of backdoors in general, but in this situation, i
Re:Why the surprise.... (Score:2)
China Really Shouldn't be Complaining (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:China Really Shouldn't be Complaining (Score:2)
And this is marked Flamebait why? Ah! Because it uses the word "piracy," which touched too close to home for many of the mods here. Not minding ripping off entertainment makes for strange bedfellows, doesn't it?
Re:China Really Shouldn't be Complaining (Score:2)
Re:China Really Shouldn't be Complaining (Score:2)
Webster's:
2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.
can't trust wireless encryption anyway (Score:3, Informative)
If you want secure wireless communications, you have to use software encryption implemented in open source software.
see times are changing (Score:3, Funny)
Legalize and the right to a democratic networking standard .... China is indeed becoming more westernized all the time ... hahahaha ... I love it.
Its the IEEE they really have the gripe with... (Score:5, Interesting)
I love the idea of clandestine meetings around ISO and IEEE meetings, more people would go if that was true!
Usless comment on ISO (Score:2)
Chinese Gov't just looking for leverage (Score:2)
Launched a case = an appeal at ISO (Score:2)
Re:Suit against intel? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, it's about time they grew up and started killing other countries' populace like the grown-ups are.
Re:Suit against intel?-Bullies. (Score:2)
Ahh, but according to China there's no such thing as Tibet; there's only China :)
Kinda like the with Turks and the Kurds. "Repressing Kurds? Never, there is no such things as Kurds! Only Turks! ... and Turks who falsely claim to be Kurdish, but we're improsening them like that liers they are!"
Re:Suit against intel? (Score:2)
And how is any country with military and intelligence organizations running out of control any [whatreallyhappened.com] different [whatreallyhappened.com]?
(Couldn't resist.)
Re:Suit against intel? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Suit against intel? (Score:2)
Re:Suit against intel? (Score:2)
As opposed to countries that systematically kill population of other countries (uh, who might that be)?
Re:Another anti-China article (Score:2)
Re:Another anti-China article (Score:2)
I think too it is great that monopolies are fought. And if it is unethical protagonists that fight them, well, at least they are good for something.
Re:Another anti-China article (Score:2)
Re:Because China plays fairly! (Score:2)
Re:China just wants to eavesdrop (Score:2)
Re:China just wants to eavesdrop (Score:2)
I don't trust any encryption system that isn't open and well-analyzed, regardless of the country of origin.
That said, I'm sure that some Chinese people are capable of developing strong cryptography. They broke SHA-1 [schneier.com], after all.
brains (Score:2)
The truly brainy people knew from the start that war would be bad. They also haven't forgotten that avoiding war could have been far more costly.
We'll never be able to try the alternative to see how bad it would have been. Such is life.