Don't Blame The Games, Blame The Parent 136
jayintune writes "2old2play has an interesting article up on the recent push for more laws on videogame sales to children. It goes over the history of violent crime amongst teens and how it relates to the new surge in videogame-related legislation. Do laws really help our children or is it ultimately the parents role to decided?" From the article: "I'd say by the time a kid is three or four, he or she should know it's not okay to hit someone else. The child should be aware violence is not an acceptable response. Parents, grandparents, older siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, teachers... anyone older than a child should reinforce certain societal values and traits. Kids should and mostly do know better. I talked with a psychologist who told me children can separate reality from fiction at about nine or ten years of age. Well, "pre-teen" is what he said. At that age, they know what's on TV isn't real, what's in a video game isn't real. Video games are easier; they're basically just moving cartoons."
Two words. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Two words. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Two words. (Score:3, Funny)
Where is the disconnect? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think people give far less credit to kids and their concepts of reality vs make believe.
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:2)
You mean they *aren't* real!
You spoiled my dreams! I'll see you in court!
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:1)
Re:Old cartoons (Score:2, Informative)
The Google entry [google.com] for that page says "Go to Boomerang.com for more information about our 24-hour network for classic cartoons!", but that's a completely unrelated site. It's also in the page's description tag, which is where Google gets it from. Anybody know what happened to that domain?
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:1)
Don't forget, we evolved over many years; most of our history has included pretty tramatic things, like losing one or both parents, maybe getting lost.
Its nice to have some science in this debate finally; maybe that will quell parents fears. Of course science doesn't seem to stop creationists from presenting their 'theory'.. maybe I'm hoping for too much.
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:1)
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:4, Insightful)
I remember being lectured over and over as a child that television and cartoons are fiction, I also remember trying to explain to adults that I understood the concept.
I have always had a very vibrant imagination and a good memeory for detail I think this is why I like science Fiction like Stargate, BSG, B5 and Star Trek... I can ususaly keep the minor details of the setting sorted out (without focusing on how "unrealistic" it all is) which usualy makes these kinds of shows more enjoyable.
I think grounding your kids too deeply in reality is a bad idea... children need to have there imaginations stimulated otherwise they lose them... having said that parents should do there best to be involved in there childs life for a number of reasons but in this case mostly to make sure they don't get to out of touch with reality.
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:3, Insightful)
A friend's 2-year-old daughter (a middling-bright, perfectly normal child) would do things like give adults imaginary trinkets, which she would pick out of the air and lay on your open palm. Her mannerisms when doing this were obviously meant to be *mime*, quite different from when she picked up a real object and gave you that.
She also understood my game of calling a blanket
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:3, Insightful)
I remember a strong reaction to Dungeons & Dragons. Interesting, really - at that point in time (early 80's) they seemed to think the biggest threat to children was their own imaginations.
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:2)
*sigh* If only the truth of it had been that exciting...
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:2)
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:3, Informative)
Wow, that's really over the top! There was some of this pressure, but it was only at church - where they were pretty much opposed to everything. What I'm talking about is the idea that D&D would somehow make us all become delusional and believe we were living the lives of our game characters, like the main character in Mazes And Monsters [wikipedia.org]. It's loosely based on actual events. (Very loosely.) It's embarrassing to admit just how many people thought this w
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:2)
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:2)
My grandfathers killed Nazis, You Insensitive Clod!
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:2)
Sure, and your great-great-great-grandfathers killed demons from hell, but nowadays people are more realistic and just kill cops.
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Where is the disconnect? (Score:2)
When I was a kid, yes, it was all about rocket powered roller skates et al. Slapstick silliness. Violent yes. But also obviously ludicrous, no parallels in the real world.
What cartoons are presented to kids now though? The ludicrous has been replaced with the realistic. The non-existent anvil has been replaced with the omnipresent gun. There is absolutely blatant and obvious realistic and plausible violence in car
Re:Wait, The point here is Media... NO content rig (Score:2)
Take a particularly violent episode of GIJoe on TV. Now redoit live action. Now put it in a comic. Now put it into a pure text story.
The media changes, but has ZERO impact on the violence presented...the content.
See my point?
It's not the media (cartoons, games, live action movies whatever), it's what is presented using that media.
It's a shame (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's a shame (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It's a shame (Score:3, Interesting)
Hundreds of people protesting a real issue on one side. Three loonies claiming lime Jello should be banned because it killed one of their mothers on the other side. Guess which
Re:It's a shame -- "I hate Mondays" (Score:4, Insightful)
I've been hearing this a lot too and it's pure BS. In the 70s a young girl took a gun to school and killed several of her classmates. When asked why, "I hate Mondays" was her only reply. (IIRC, a punk rock song came out of that incident.) This girl was not the only student to commit such violence at a school in the 70s. You can't blame GTA or any other violent game for that; all that was available at that time was pinball and the early Atari games. This has been going on longer than there have been violent video games. Why are they focusing on video games being a cause now when this problem obviously began -- and well withing living memory -- before these kind of video games existed?
Thing is, a lot of people who advocate this are the same age as me or even older so they should remember these incidents too, which makes me wonder what kind of brain-washing techniques the leaders of this movement are using.
Re:It's a shame -- "I hate Mondays" (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It's a shame -- "I hate Mondays" (Score:2)
This may sound cliché but, (Score:5, Insightful)
And sometimes... (Score:2)
Re:This may sound cliché but, (Score:1)
Re:This may sound cliché but, (Score:3, Funny)
Re:This may sound cliché but, (Score:1)
Grr... (Score:2)
Nobody loses.
Where did these stupid kids get this idea?
It even says so in your frickin' link.
Godwin's Law - the idea (Score:1)
There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.
And if you looked at the talkback page, in the section called "good or bad?" you'd see my comment that says that the article's opening focus underemphasizes the tradition that whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress, which is what most peop
I'll second that (Score:1)
That said, I think ratings are a critical tool to help a parent but the current rating systems suck. There really needs to be something more along the lines of an indicator of what the content is rather than some arbitrary scale that means nothing to me. It goes without saying that I do not agree with censorship at all but there should be something to help us understand what the content is so a parent can choose how a
Re:I'll second that (Score:2)
Re:I'll second that (Score:2)
EVERYONE 10+
E 10+
Fantasy Violence
Mild Language
Mild Suggestive Themes
Use of Alcohol and Tobacco
ESRB CONTENT RATING www.esrb.org
You have to flip the box over to get that as there's just the non-descriptive rating on the front of the box, but that looks pretty good to me. There's usually also some text and screenshots on the packaging that would let a concerned parent know a little about the game. I guess I don't understand where you see the problem.
Blame, blame, blame (Score:5, Insightful)
Listen up folks, regardless of which camp you fall into, you're both wrong. When someone performs such acts it's almost always a complex interaction between many factors. The child themself, their parents, their friends, their environment, all those things factor into how one acts/reacts. There is no such thing as "perfect" parenting. You could apply the exact same parenting style to two different kids and get to very differently behaved kids. Ditto the other factors. What happens is that all these factors play together and if you get the right (or wrong depending on your perspective) then something bad can happen. Blindly trying to blame a single point of failure, while comforting to many, almost never works.
That is what is so upsetting about both extremes of this debate. On the one side you have folks who want to ban violent video games. On the other (and many on
Re:Blame, blame, blame (Score:2)
If you possibly could blame the games, its because of over exposure to them. Something that proper parenting could co
of course... (Score:5, Insightful)
1950s OH MY GOD THE WORLD IS OVER, Rock and Roll... our children are being corrupted
1960s OH MY GOD, ELVIS is such a good boy, but those BEATLES
1970s TV is KILLING my Children
1980s HORROR MOVIES are KILLING my Children
1990s NIVARNA are forcing Children to top themselves
And of course now its Video Games which are forcing Children into a life of violence.
This is just another great "Aunt Sally" for politicians and "academics" to debate and get money from. If it wasn't this they'd be battering on at Cartoons for glorifying violence (there is nothing in Doom III worse than the violence of Tom and Jerry or Roadrunner). The young are ALWAYS being corrupted in the minds of the elders, and what corrupted them in their youth is now seen as innocent.
And have you noticed... its always the over 40s who start wars... something must be making them do it.... I blame mugs of hot chocolate.
And lets not forget when Marge banned "Itchy and Scratchy"
Re:of course... (Score:3, Interesting)
Video games are on the whole no mor
Re:of course... (Score:2)
Who told you that? If God is wrong, if God orders something you know to be evil, then you not only have the right but also the duty to challenge him. More to the point, if God's officially appointed spokesman on Earth is wrong - because for some reason he doesn't generally do public appearances, but issues statements via intermediaries - then you ought to challen
D&D (Score:2)
Re:D&D (Score:2)
or read good 'ol Jack Chick. I have an original of this one - found it in a stack in a bathroom in the mid-80s:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.a sp [chick.com] - at the time I thought it was the funniest, most misguided thing I've ever read. An old friend had a complete collection of Chick's printed works (also found in bathrooms, incidentally), but I'm pretty sure you can find them all reproduced on the net. I could go on and on
Itchy and Scratchy (Score:2)
Like when the women helped Marge in banning Itchy and Scratchy... but then they were scandalized at Michael Angelo's David and Marge was accused of treason. Then the TV company saw this and played Itchy and Scratchy again.
The same hipocricy and nonsense can be seen in the "conservative christian" groups banning the
I also find the entertainment media hipocritical - instead of acc
Re:of course... (Score:2)
And even before that, electromechanical and mechanical machines of amusment were targets (Pinball was a big target for years).
I grew up playing games on the Nintendo and on PC (including Doom and C&C) and I am perfectly normal. Oh wait, no-one who posts to slashdot can be perfectly normal
Re:of course... (Score:2)
Re:of course... (Score:2)
Interesting and completely unfounded statistic. I'd say that a pretty big chunk of deaths are caused by old age and disease.
In that case you should probably use a different word since most people mean something different when they say 'religion.' Generally i doesn't involve atheisti
Re:of course... (Score:1)
Replace deaths with killings, and the majority of such were caused by religion.
Mao's portrait was forced to be in every single home in China. Although officially atheist, the people of Russia and China were essentially forced to worship the communist revolutionar
Re:of course... (Score:2)
I mustn't be hearing right... (Score:2)
We have to admit that movies & games *are* getting more and more explicit & gory in days where we actually attempt to control that very same violence. ESRB just being there to relieve the non caring parents from having to decide what's good for their kids or not. Sure I could believe that a mentally challenge
Educating the parent (Score:1)
Back in the old days, parent had other people to rely on, and to some extent get some education on being a parent from.
Theory 2:
These days parents have more responsibilities that keep them away from their kids, so they don't get the feel of what a kid really is.
Theory 3:
If #2 is true then parents have less of an idea what is appropriate for their kids.
Theory 4:
If #1 is true, then new sources should be created to replace the lost ones.
Question:
Are parent's incentive to learn and resourc
Subject, meet summary... (Score:2)
On a slightly different topic, how am I supposed to monitor my child all the time to make sure he's not doing violent things, when it takes time away from me playing VIOLENT VIDEOGAMES!
Re:Subject, meet summary... (Score:2)
Not just moving cartoons (Score:2)
If you play modern first person shooters, they can be very realistic. The graphics are superb these days. Not 100% perfect, but far better than 'moving cartoons'. You can get totally immersed in the game and begin to think about the game also when you are not playing it. The level of realism possible will only improve in the future. Obviously the author has never played this sort of game, and ought to try it before claiming to know about games.
H
Re:Not just moving cartoons (Score:4, Funny)
I used to look at people's faces and want to put L-shaped tetris blocks between their eyebrows.
If you're going to say something, please be clear. (Score:3, Insightful)
Dear Random Nobody,
Okay, you don't like legislation affecting video games, we get it.
But please, your blog entry comes off as incoherent, at best, and childish at worst.
a) You start off with a straw man. No legislators are calling for people to burn video games. No legislators are claiming that they're the root of all evil.
b) You take a quote from someone who runs Common Sense Media [commonsensemedia.org] -- an lobbying organization that also happens to provide rating services -- at face value. In the same article you call journalists lazy.
c) You mistakenly cite GTA as the "start" of this. "This" has been going on since Doom. GTA3, and Hot Coffee, weren't out when Colubine happened, if you remember.
d) You waffle, and end up attacking video games yourself by saying "I wouldn't let my children anywhere near one of these games", and that the game sucked. That's like defending Manhunt by saying it was so bad people wouldn't play it.
e) You talk with "a psychologist". No citations, no refernces, no studies that indicate when a child can seperate reality from fantasy. Just your word.
f) You commit the fallacy of accident -- just because you haven't been violent, means that video games don't make people violent. That's not proof, that's circumstance.
g) You site crime statistics that are meaningless in support of your proof. There are well understood reasons why the crime rate dropped nationwide in 1993. This does not preclude, in any way, video games from having a detremental effect.
h) You "read studies" -- you don't cite, you don't reference, you selectively remember. For someone with an alleged Master's degree, you sure as hell don't know how to form an argument.
By the way, I live in a province where the government regulates video games and movies. Oddly, I'm still able to go to EB and buy GTA if I want. And my son can't.
I can't for the life of me figure out why that's bad.
Re:If you're going to say something, please be cle (Score:1, Informative)
Re:If you're going to say something, please be cle (Score:2)
Since even earlier. Remember the panic about Mortal Kombat? Or the epilepsy scare? Hell, the whole thing can probably be traced at least to the Dungeons & Dragons panic in the seventies and eighties.
Rephrase (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Rephrase (Score:2)
My mother said it to me and I plan on saying it to my kid.
Re:Rephrase (Score:2)
All that stuff about kids fragile egos and self-esteem is bullshit (dangerous too IMO).
Most kids think the world revolves
Re:Rephrase (Score:2)
Solution: Vote (Score:4, Interesting)
If we want to change this situation, we, as a generation, need to take action and vote out the people who are making these laws. This problem can only be addressed by doing something. We need to vote on election days and write on congressperson every time this issue comes up to let our voice be heard.
It's the old gun argument. (Score:2)
Re:It's the old gun argument. (Score:2)
In defense of the litigation-happy parents (I sympathize, plus I like to play devil's advocate), what most of the litigation does is simply help parents retain their power of choice for their children. It's hard to raise kids right in a media-crazy world. Unless you throw out the TV and radio and never let them get out of sight, kids are quickly exposed to adult themes that some of them are not emotionally mature enough to understand. The two big ones are sex and violence, of course.
We're talking
Moving Cartoons!?!??! (Score:1)
Re:Moving Cartoons!?!??! (Score:1)
Huh? (Score:2)
I thought laws were made to get politicians re-elected?
How about... (Score:2)
My kid has it figured out at 5 years old (Score:1)
If my kid gets it at 5, you can be damn sure every teen-ager out there gets it. It's the ones that don't CARE about the difference between fantasy and reality that should scare you. And video games have nothing to do with it.
Re:My kid has it figured out at 5 years old (Score:1)
Unfortunately, that's not the case (Score:2)
Some people just can't seem to glean that what they see on TV or read in a book/magazine isn't real. Heck, even I get a bit irate when I see the stuff that happens on certain cop shows (although mainly because the
A bit oversimplified... (Score:4, Insightful)
There is a difference between conscious recognition that something is "just pretend" and actually not having it effect you, and the fact that someone that is 5, or a teen, or whatever can say "its just pretend" doesn't imply that it is not having a bigger effect on their thinking and behavior than it might on a person with a more mature brain. And there are plenty of studies that support that this is, in fact, generally the case.
Note: I'm not saying I agree with the mindset that the state should regulate; I believe that parents are the best regulators, and that the role of the state should be to empower parents while not constraining the free flow of content, which is a tough balance to strike. And, further, I think that sheltering kids from "mature" content isn't really the best response. Sure, there needs to be some control, but more important is to prepare them for increasingly mature content and helping them develope the mental facilities to deal with it. All I'm saying is that its a bit naive to say that kids are generally safe because they consciously recognize the distinction between "pretend" and "reality".
Because sooner or later they are going to run into sex, violence, etc., in art and/or reality, and they ought to be prepared to deal with exposure to it when they do.
content labeling good, restrictions bad (Score:3, Insightful)
The first problem ratings, e.g. motion picture ratins, has always been that they don't tell you what's in the film. Instead, they tell you if the film is 'safe' or 'dangerous'. Now, video game ratings are the same way.
The second problem is that no sooner does a work get labeled than some @$$hat write a law restricting sale/ viewing of works with particular ratings.
The only law that's worth having here is one mandating content labelling to give partents information. After than, leave it to the parents to decide.
Re:content labeling good, restrictions bad (Score:2)
Wait for it. (Score:3, Interesting)
In 20 years or so, those of us who grew up with video games will be in our 40-50's and in control of most things. The people who grew up in the mists of the dark ages will either be dead or pretty darn close to it. Once that happens we can all agree that video games are not evil and insted work on preventing the corruption of children by whatever new evil has come about by then.
Re:Wait for it. (Score:2)
Boy do I have a surprise for you:
The current generation is going to turn into their parents, and if there is any change it will be more, not less restrictive.
Notice how all those weed smokers from the 60s that are in charge now don't allow weed smoking? Even though, if weed was as harmful as claimed, these people should have disqualified themselves as mentaly unfit. Or at least they should have an obvious drool.
Grade school kids nowdays are supervised every waking moment. A generation ag
Re:Wait for it. (Score:2)
They've aleady got you beat on this one. Campuses are starting to remove soda mahcines and anything tasty from school menues.
I weep for the US, it had a good run, but we have managed to rise to decadence and are now working our way to imploding. I expect that we'll go the way of Rome in the next 200 years, we have an economic empire and are running out of areas to conquer, implosion can't be too far off.
studies? what studies? (Score:2)
You gotta love an article that complains about a lack of studies, but doesn't cite a single study showing lack of correlation between playing violent games and performing violent acts.
Those overall crime stats are nice, but let's see a st
Wow great. (Score:2)
From his own keyboard "I'm so tired of people stating their opinion as fact and the media reporting it without context. If a guy says that about video games, it's the media's job to do the research.".
Yet all we get from this guy is his opinion. No studies on any connection between violence and video games or lack there of.
This article is as valid as one that
In other news... (Score:1)
Work work work.... (Score:1)
Children need guidance and advice from their number 1 source, their
silly argument (Score:1)
While it's true that the ultimate responsibility lies with the parent, this argument is spurious. Just because a kid should know better, does that make it okay for me to sell him something that's potentially dangerous?
Obviously you can argue the games aren't harmful, but that's not the point this guy seems to be trying to make. His point is, "It's the parents' fault, ergo there shouldn't be laws that prohibit sales to minors." That doesn't follow. By that logic, nothing should be prohibited from being
Of course! (Score:1)
How do kids have all this free time? He's either at practice (soccer, baseball, basketball - whatever is in season) or outside in our backyard playing with the neighborhood kids (or me).
These parents who complain about TV or videogames just seem a little lazy to me...
Governmental Parenting (Score:2)
Maybe I was just fortunate enough to have parents who were responsible and actually wanted to know what their kids were doing. I use to complain about my parents monitoring my inte
Laws can help actually ;) (Score:2)
Maybe before anyone is allowed to have kids they must have provably brought up a dog of a not super-compliant breed to be well mannered, not destructive but still not totally cowed (can't have one always running away and hiding). The Regulatory body picks and assigns the dog (you don't get to choose the super easy candidates
If they don't pass, they have to keep paying maintenance for the dog and they don't get a ch
Re:Laws can help actually ;) (Score:2)
Re:Laws can help actually ;) (Score:2)
Anyway what happens if you end up with a stupid barking airheaded child? There's a chance you might get one of those as a parent.
Those that just want to pass on their genes can donate their sperm/eggs
Re:Laws can help actually ;) (Score:3, Insightful)
[Speaking as a professional dog trainer with 36 years experience.]
You all expect so much (Score:2)
Re:You all expect so much (Score:2)
You fail.
By having a law stating that a child cannot buy a game, the Government is the one saying what's okay and what's not. Not you. The government.
If you don't want your son playing violent games, then you tell
Re:You all expect so much (Score:2)
Wrong, the government, or whoever would rate the games in the end, isn't saying what is ok and what is not, it would only be a recommendation, nothing more. If a parent thinks his son/daughter is mature enough for some more gory content there is nothing stoping that parent from buying the game for his/her child. The point is that the parent should be the one buying
Re:You all expect so much (Score:2)
Jobs are good for kids because it teaches them responsibility and some limited measure of independence. If you and/or your kid aren't ready for that then he shouldn't have a job.
Re:sports=violence? (Score:5, Interesting)
That probably wouldn't have been my first idea had I been in his case, but people started cheering for him, and everyone stopped fighting to see what was going on. So his plan worked. What made it more interesting, however, was that someone in the stands didn't approve, and called the cops. And the cops arrested him for indecent exposure, and took him to jail.
I'm not anti-sport, or even anti-violent sports like hockey and football, but I think that it's amazing that in the midst of all that fighting, the guy that goes to jail is the pacifist who felt like taking his clothes off. It wasn't really lewd or sexual(unlike the infamous superbowl incident). He caused a fight to stop. He stopped people from trying to hurt each other. And someone found that offensive enough to call the cops. That just, to me, says something very strange about our culture.
Life imitates a movie: Slap Shot (Score:4, Informative)
Re:sports=violence? (Score:2)
In America, movies that have people being decapitated get rated PG-13. But you see one female nipple it's rated R.
So apparently sex is bad, and violence is good, or at least bearable. Strange culture indeed.
Re:sports=violence? (Score:2)