Coffee Maybe Not a Health Drink! 381
perbert writes "Canadian researchers have published a study in the Journal of the American Medical Association indicating that excess coffee drinking (4+ cups a day) could lead to an increased risk of heart disease if you have the wrong gene. In light of other studies linking antioxidants in coffee to a reduction in heart disease, who is right? Or will they cancel out in a coffee death-match?"
Dose (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dose (Score:5, Insightful)
If anyone ever tells you to do a lot of anything, run the other way. People have died from everything from eating too much salt to drinking too much carrot juice. Keep your diet balanced and your intakes in moderation, and you'll do far better than chasing around massive doses of things that are "good" for you.
Re:Dose (Score:4, Informative)
best not to have any coffee (Score:3, Insightful)
Two cups a day means you are addicted. If you "need" a cup a day, you are addicted.
Re:best not to have any coffee (Score:3, Interesting)
I found that breaking off progressively was *much* easier than all-of-a-sudden. You don't get all the psychological trip where your brain tries to convince you that you *must* have a cup otherwise something bad will happen (eg. you won't be sharp enough to do your job, etc). B
Re:best not to have any coffee (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not like it's freakin' heroin or something. First of all, you're probably better off being a "hard-core" coffee addict than a casual user of cocaine or heroin. Second, last time I checked there weren't any twelve-step programs for coffee drinkers, or patches to help them quit. That suggests that either people don't have a problem with being regular coffee drinkers, and/or they don't have much of a problem quitting if it's making them irritable, sleepless or whatever.
The whole "addiction" thing is just a little out of hand. When I'm working out in the desert I may drink two liters of water a day, and damn sure I feel a "need" for water when its 90 degrees. So I'm a water addict? To be an addiction, I think it has to (a) be seriously detrimental to your well-being, and (b) you have to have serious trouble quitting. Coffee doesn't meet either of those criteria.
Re:best not to have any coffee (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, if you're sure of the purity and dose of your heroin it's very physiologically benign. It's just an opiates, and pain patients use opiates their entire lives. If heroin were legal it would be cheap enough that addicts wouldn't have to steal to get it, and wouldn't be stigmatized by being an addict. Because of tolerance the actual deleterious effects of being opiated go away. They could live entirely normal lives.
Re:best not to have any coffee (Score:5, Insightful)
Opiates to build tolerance on their own, so said legal junky will still need more and more.
People on heroin maintenance programs tend to acclimate to a dosing schedule that keeps them functional. They're so tolerant that they literally can't get enough to get high, so it's barely worth considering them intoxicated.
Sure, like alcoholics aren't? Good example there, alcohol = legal drug, and a large portion of the population is directly harmed by it. Be it through drunk drivers, domestic abuse, or just the general unpleasantness that exists in being around them
So your solution is to prohibit alcohol? Look how well that worked... Besides, the comparison between alcohol and heroin is very tenuous. The violence caused by alcohol is pharmacological, the violence caused by heroin is sociological.
Ignoring a fact that they are incapible of actually living a normal life.
That's just ignorant prejudice. Heroin maintenance works [drugpolicy.org].
If you hate heroin addicts so much, why not advocate legalization so it will be easier for the bastards to get what's coming to them?
Re:best not to have any coffee (Score:3, Interesting)
Overall I agree with you, but I just thougth I'd mention that some studies suggest that the link between alcohol and aggression is sociological as well - in a study I read, people who believed they consumed alcohol, whether they had or not, were more aggressive than people
Re:Dose (Score:4, Funny)
But don't run too far.
Re:Dose (Score:4, Insightful)
According to the article, a cup a day is not a major risk. Two to three cups regularly, however, is. From the article:
So if you're a Venti (20 oz/2.5 cups) Starbucks drinker, maybe you should consider cutting back to a tall (12 oz/1.5 cups). And avoid regularly making multiple trips to Starbucks. Once your doctor is able to start testing for this gene, then he can provide more precise recommendations for your genetic type.
Re:Dose (Score:5, Interesting)
To a point, however that simplifies and misses the point of the article: The researchers are claiming that there are two common variants of the gene responsible for the systems that breaks down coffee, and those with one variant are made healthier by 3 cups of coffee a day, while those with the other variant (CYP1A2*1F) are detrimentally affected by the same.
So it's the dose...and the genes that build the systems that deal with the dose.
Re:Dose (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, coffee is so acidic that people who work out everyday are not likely to be able to drink 4+ cups a day (again, non scientific anecdotal evidence). Coffee is currently fashionable, but when I think of a stereotypical coffee addict like myslelf, I dont think of a slim trim health nut...
Re:Dose (Score:3, Interesting)
To really appreciate coffee saturation, get to know Canadian culture (particular Vancouver or Southern Ontario). We quaff coffee close to universally, from stressful to calm, and from unhealthy to healthy. Small towns feature half a dozen drive through coffee shops, all hosting endless lineups.
The Gene is the Poison (Score:4, Informative)
In this case, it may be the gene that's the poison. It appears that a gene called CYP1A2 determines how fast you metabolize caffeine, depending on which of two variants you have. People with two copies of the variant CYP1A2*1A metabolize caffeine about 4X faster than those with two copies of the other variant, CYP1A2*1F. The study found that more than 2 or 3 cups of coffee a day increases the risk of cardiovascular disease for the slow metabolizers, but may actually reduce it for those carrying CYP1A2*1A.
That could be why studies on the health effects of coffee have been all over the map. The trick is to know your genotype with regard to CYP1A2, and of course very few of us do (or can)...
. html [newscientist.com]
See http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/dn8816
Not just dose. (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to mention the person's physiology. There's a reason they call the lethal dose of something the "LD50", and that's because that's the dose at which 50% of the animals they injected the substance into died. (they measure it in milligrams of drug per kiligram of animal, in case you're wondering).
Some people are immune to AIDS, some people are allergic to peanut butter, in some people Ibuprophen works for headaches, in others Asprin or Tylenol
Still waking up (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Still waking up (Score:3, Funny)
Paracelso once said... (Score:4, Insightful)
This study once said.... (and it disagrees) (Score:3, Informative)
For folks with the gene, even two cups was harmful. For those without, the more the merrier. Please read more carefully.
Re:Paracelso once said... (Score:3, Funny)
Who Cares (Score:2, Interesting)
I thought it was just the magic breakfast juice that helps me move, think,
Re:Who Cares (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Who Cares (Score:5, Funny)
I must drink coffee. It is the mind filler. It is the little shot that brings total caffeination. I will taste my coffee. I will allow it to pass through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the coffee has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. Then I must drink more coffee. It is the mind filler...
here we go again (Score:5, Interesting)
"Doctors say more than 4 cups is bad for you!"
then, 2 months later... "Doctors say more than 4 cups is good for you!"
One month you hear too much fiber is bad for you, then cholesterol is good for you.
I think as long as everyone comsumes food/drinks moderately and not go over board most people have nothing to worry about. Although, with obesity in the United States the way it is today, I would say it's already too late.
You Misunderstand (Score:5, Insightful)
If you look carefully the summary for the research is saying the caffeine is bad for you, and that the study concluded this based on research into coffee consumption. The other studies that claim coffee is good for you were actually referring to other chemicals in coffee, not the caffeine, nor the entirety of the coffee.
Also people seem to think that scientists study everything about a topic before releasing results. But that is a misunderstanding about how science works. Generally scientists focus on very small areas of large topics and then propose more sweeping conclusions. Usually the media then make even more generalised conclusions that result in complete misunderstanding in non-scientists.
Peer review is also important, often these studies are fundamentally flawed and even though the submitted paper offers a conclusion, the scientist writing it is well aware that in science, nothing is proved by one paper. Instead wait ten years for more supporting evidence, rinse, repeat and progress.
Re:You Misunderstand (Score:2)
Which reminds me, there was a recent study published in the Journal of the American Medical Associatio
Re:here we go again (Score:4, Insightful)
Salt is bad for you. Except if you don't have the gene that links salt to hypertension. In which case it isn't bad for you. If you do have that gene, then salt is very bad for you. In aggregate, given ignorance of your genes, it poses a risk.
Experiments to date have been crude, in that they don't effectively control for genetic variation. Thus a slight bias in the genetic make-up can easily push an experiment to one or the other side of statistical significance.
If we ever do get an efficient, fast and affordable way to do a comprehensive genetic screening, it will be of tremendous benefit to humanity. That is, after the fighting and chaos dies down, as insurance companies manage their risk to the point they become irrelevant, and families come to grips with uncomfortable holes in their pedigrees.
Re:here we go again (Score:2)
Though, I think your sig script would be worse for your health then any amount of coffee...
Totally offtopic about your signature (Score:5, Funny)
So here's a small problem with your signature - you run the while loop until the beer is full...but you chug the beer inside the while loop. Which means that once your beer is full...you stop drinking. Of course, this is all dependent upon the fact that chug doesn't empty the glass, which is usually what happens when you chug...so basically I think you need to check the return of chug to make sure it didn't fail. Otherwise you might have problems.
Sorry for wasting your time.
Re:Totally offtopic about your signature (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Totally offtopic about your signature (Score:2, Funny)
$beer = new Beer();
while ($beer != empty) {
chug($beer);
}
But actually what you want is:
while ($wallet != empty){
$beer = new Beer(getDollar($wallet));
while ($beer != empty) {
chug($beer);
}
}
With an optional:
if ($upright == true){
attemptToPull();
}
I guess the moral of the story is to tri
Re:Totally offtopic about your signature (Score:4, Funny)
Or a beer.
please read more carefully in the future (Score:5, Insightful)
I saw one study that said a single cup of coffee a day was good for athletic training, and another that said that the more coffee you drink, the lower the risk of heart disease.
This study says that more than four cups of coffee a day are bad for you if you have a particular gene.
None of these things are contradictory-- just like how a glass of wine may be beneficial, but 10 glasses may cause liver disease. Or how some types of cholesterol are good, but others are bad.
Re:here we go again (Score:2)
That's what my doctor says, too. Indeed, eating things in moderation and getting decent exercise is key to a good, long and healthy life.
Well, (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Well, (Score:3, Funny)
To quote a much more sensible man than me ... (Score:5, Funny)
Everything in Moderation (Score:3, Interesting)
However having said this, I until recently was having something like 6 cups of coffee a day. A few months ago my body started reacting really badly to even the smell of coffee, drinking a cup gives me a terrible reaction with shivering, accelerated heart rate and light-headedness for up to a few hours.
The stuff is nasty.
Currently I'm drinking 6 cups of tea a day instead
Re:Everything in Moderation (Score:2)
Good tea, I hope, such as loose stuff from Adagio [adagio.com]. (I say this while enjoying some black apricot [adagio.com])
Re:Everything in Moderation (Score:2)
Re:Everything in Moderation (Score:4, Informative)
When this happens, do you experience difficulty concentrating? (Neuroglycopenia) And does it subsequently go away when you ingest food, especially sugar? Do you experience frequent urination during the recovery phase? If it's Hypoglycemia, it is actually very dangerous for your brain.
Caffeine's kick comes from its ability to expedite the transport of sugar from the blood to the tissues. The occasionally dangerous side effect is that if you have a problem with your diet and/or anrednal glands, since caffeine creates this metabolic illusion of an energy boost, the combination can sometimes result in depleting the blood of sugar faster than this sugar can be replenished. Then you crash dangerously hard, experiencing what insulin-dependent diabetics refer to as a "hypo."
When your brain detects low blood sugar, it triggers the release of adrenalin and cortisol which are stress hormones, and this causes your body to release emergency sugar from other sources, such as stored glucagon from your liver.
So most of the unpleasant effects of hypoglycemia are actually your body's defense against it. But you are 100% right to avoid coffee if it does that to you, since this is a warning sign. Coffee does not do this to everybody.
Whatever the problem is, things can likely be brought back into balance just by eating moderate balanced meals, and having healthy snacks between meals and before bed. If you eat a lot of sugar, take it with some protein and/or fat so that your pancreas never gets habitually braced for dealing with big jolts of sugar... because it'll get itself into a mode where it produces too much insulin at the wrong time... which can be as dangerous as the legendary diabetic insulin overdose. So ironically, too much sugar can cause hypoglycemia.
Definitely talk to a Dietician.
Possibly at some point in the future, you might consult an Endocrinologist if you've been bingeing on high-sugar foods, and you think you might be at risk of developing type II diabetes or something like hyperinsulinism or hypoglycemia. (The latter two may actually be somewhat common. It's the diagnosis for them which is exceedingly rare, since they are both very difficult to get clinically diagnosed. Pretty much only the textbook cases that present under ideal circumstances will ever get diagnosed.) You almost have to be pretty sick before an Endocrinologist will be able to help you.
Good luck...
PS:
I personally had just one episode of "reactive hypoglycemia" involving just one strong coffee, a skipped breakfast and some physical exertion, and it felt exactly like the experiences you describe having with coffee. I did not lose consciousness, but the experience did leave me with some very subtle brain damage... (which I seem to be adapting to finally after 6 weeks.)
Re:Everything in Moderation (Score:3, Informative)
I've known for some time that I process caffeine more slowly than many of my friends, but with the results of this new study (and a family history of heart disease), I believe I will have to seriously reduce my coffee i
The coffee dilemma; a management perspective (Score:5, Funny)
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming, "TCO analysis for the enterprise"
Re:The coffee dilemma; a management perspective (Score:3, Funny)
The peons like coffee. We need more productivity. Coffee is a stimulant. Give them more coffee to increase productivity. Oops, now they spend too much time around the coffee pot! Buy bad coffee, they are addicted anyway. Oh no, now their health is declining and our insurance bills are going up! No problem, just make them pay most of the premiums. They won't be able to afford to quit that way...
Hah! (Score:2)
/me tosses back the third black tea of the morning in celebration
Ex Caffeine Junky (Score:5, Interesting)
Since I was 22 I have had high blood pressure. I've spoken here about it before and complained about the high cost of Rx meds to control it and my belief that my Doctor (undercompensated by my insurance provider) is possibly pushing name-brand drugs instead of their generic counterparts to recoup some of that cost in kick-backs.
Anyway, I was gaining on 200mg daily of various meds to control the BP. I was also gaining in daily consumption of caffeine. After switching to Diet Cherry Vanilla Dr. Pepper (aka Liquid Crack) I was heading for 5 to 6 20oz bottles a day (at work) plus 5 to 10 12oz cans every two days (at home).
After quitting the caffeine habbit I'm on 10mg of BP meds (about $10 a month) and water.
So, if you're looking to limit your heart disease and the high cost of protecting yourself against it with prescriptions, you might want to first take a look at your caffeine intake. It worked for me.
Re:Ex Caffeine Junky (Score:2)
You know you can request to the Pharmacist to replace a brand name with a generic? Sheesh...
Aspartame (Score:2, Insightful)
Too much Aspartame gives me wicked headaches. Aspartame also breaks down into formaldehyde by your liver - how much or how long - I don't know, but that's what I've been told by a dietician - a real dietician from a hostpital. Not your typical "self educated" one who learned about diet from magazines thay, well, may not be the best source
Re:Aspartame (Score:2)
I kid, of course.
Re:Aspartame (Score:4, Informative)
The amount of methanol produced by Aspartame in the body is 10% of the ingested aspartame. Assuming all the methonal is further converted to formadehyde, a normal 12 oz soft drink causes only 1/6th the amount of methonal production as an equivalent drink of Tomato Juice (which contains no Aspartame, but contains other "natural" chemicals that produce methanol).
The actual numbers are this:
A 12 oz diet soda contains 225 mg of Aspartame (approximately 0.05% of the drink is aspartame). That generates 22.5 mg of methanol, or about 0.005% of the drink will become methanol. We will assume all the methanol becomes formaldehyde (worst case). The LD50 of formaldehyde is 100mg/kg. For an average male of 75 kg, that would mean 7500mg. A total of 333 sodas must be drank by this average male to assure death, and they must be drank fast enough to counteract the body's natural ability to rid itself of formaldehyde.
Of course, hyponatremia will set in, without exercise or dry heat, with drinking about 3 or more litres of fluid per hour, for serveral hours straight. 333 sodas will contain 3996 oz of liquid, or about 118 litres. Anyone attempting death through ingestion of Aspartame by soda comsumption will surely die of hyponatremia far before they have reached even small amount of their goal!
Feel free to ask your dietician to verify this!
Re:Ex Caffeine Junky (Score:2)
If the doctor didn't point to your caffiene intake first, switch doctors. Some are very reluctant to prescribe medication, others do it too easily. A happy medium is nice, but hard to find.
Re:Ex Caffeine Junky (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's see here, 100 ounces at work, plus another 48 ounces at home, on average, every day. That's over 1 gallon of soda a day! How often did you have to go to the bathroom? They are working hard to get people to drink just over half a gallon of water a day, and here you are more than doubling that in soda, I take it moderation isn't (wa
Re:Ex Caffeine Junky (Score:2, Interesting)
Everything in moderation (Score:2)
Studies about the effects of coffee have gone back and forth countless times. My guess is that so long as you don't drink 10 gallons of it everyday, you'll be fine. I hate these studies because they change every 6 months. I remember when chocolate was supposed to be bad and then they said well its actually good. I'm just waiting for that to change again.
Welcome to nonlinearity and heterogeneity (Score:2)
the right tool for the right job (Score:2)
evening night-cap = captain morgan 'n' coffee black
In other news... (Score:4, Funny)
What does this mean... (Score:5, Funny)
So it's not healthy (Score:2)
Let's face it, no matter what you do, your health is not going to enjoy it. The food you eat has pesticides, fungicides, preservatives etc. in it. The air you breath is full of particulate matter and NOx. Your tap water is... no, I don't even want to know what's in there.
Will my coffee intake make any difference is the question. THAT is isn't the healthiest thing to do is a given. The question is rather, does it matter between the othe
Balance (Score:3, Insightful)
Anything to excess is likely to be harmful. The key is to find balance — moderation in all things, including moderation!
Oh The Irony!!! (Score:2)
Quite ironic to find those words here on
My research results (Score:3, Funny)
Personal record is four 10 cups pots (Score:3, Funny)
Studies have shown... (Score:5, Funny)
An example of interpolating narrow research (Score:2, Interesting)
Wait! Only if you have a certain gene that expresses itself. Or maybe it's because the gene causes a stressful life and it has nothing to do with coffee.
Perhaps in 20 years 1 cup a day will cause colon cancer. Maybe it will help you live 20 years longer. We are far too willing to jump to holistic health deci
And the relative risks are? (Score:2)
Irish Eyes are Smiling (Score:2)
Size counts (Score:2)
Since I gave up coffee 3 months ago, my penis has enlarged by 2 inches.
If this keeps up, I'll be bucking along with Ron Jeremy in no time!
Fittingly Canadian Story (Score:4, Interesting)
[1] For those not in the know: double-double -- a coffee with double cream, double sugar (especially, but not exclusively, from Tim Hortons). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_slang [wikipedia.org]
Another slang for overconsumption (off topic) (Score:2)
Burger King has the Croissan'wich and Hash Rounds. Let's say I wanted one Croissan'wich and one Hash Rounds. I would request a "One and one." (The default Croissan'wich flavor was sausage. If you wanted a different flavor, you would say "One and one, ham," for example.)
You can do the math from there. One and two
Re:Fittingly Canadian Story (Score:3, Insightful)
Pshaw! (Score:2)
What, you mean everybody's not alike? (Score:2)
It never ceases to amaze me that in relatively simple systems designed by man, people recognize that different inputs will have different results for different systems. Yet, in a far more complicated system designed by Who Knows What or what knows what (depending on your beliefs) people are foolish enough to think they can reduce the determination of optimal input to a simple equation that applies to all the systems. Bolix! Until we actually understand the variations in "hardware" and "software" running
100 cups (Score:2, Funny)
Fry: "Of course I've been up all night! Not because of caffeine, it was insomnia. I couldn't stop thinking about coffee. I need a nap." *snores* "Coffee time!"
What size cup we talkin' bout here? (Score:2, Funny)
hype (Score:2, Funny)
Two Apropos Quotes (Score:4, Funny)
"Studies show that research causes cancer in lab rats."
Quite honestly, all that these studies keep showing is that we still really don't understand how it all works and that, for now, you should just go ahead and eat what makes you feel healthy and good.
I'm ok, I drink 8+ cups a day. (Score:2)
Coffee (Score:5, Funny)
Next: water -- a study shows too much of it can make your lungs stop producing needful oxygen....
Re:Coffee (Score:2)
And to think, I felt stupid for submitting the piece wherein Russian scientists are finding German tanks sunk deep into the bogs using metal detectors, the tanks having fully-functioning magnetos inside some 60 years later
Slow poison (Score:2)
The study I am waiting for. (Score:2)
In other news.. (Score:2)
Time for a bigger cup (Score:5, Funny)
Word of Wisdom (Score:2)
Forget deathmatch: Google Fight (Score:2)
Coffee heart disease: 8,860,000 results
Coffee antioxidants: 1,500,000 results
Now should I feel like Fry when they discovered what Slurm really was?
"Ewww!" (sip)
Meh. (Score:2)
I'll take the lesser evil/not-evil.
HA! Take that, you caffeine-addicted wankers! (Score:4, Funny)
Oh, and all you self-righteous green tea drinking hippies are no better.
Re:HA! Take that, you caffeine-addicted wankers! (Score:3, Funny)
1) it doesn't impair your ability to work, which isn't true for most other substances
2) it's often free at workplaces and available at schools (usually in soda form for the latter)
3) it's better than being SMITTEN by the CAFFEINE GOD, you self-righteous caffeine-free prick.
ok, 3 was really to poke fun at you
key piece of the puzzle is missing... filtered? (Score:3, Interesting)
In any case, having that gene and drinking a lot of unfiltered coffee would put a person most at risk, I would think.
Who funded the study? (Score:5, Insightful)
Q: who is right? A: it depends on you. (Score:3, Informative)
A: Since it's the presence of a gene that matters which is right, Check family history:
Look for heart disease or diabetes (essentially, the same thing as far as your likelihood of heart disease goes). If found, avoid coffee.
Check family history again, look for average age at death. If less than 60 for males, assume heart attack, avoid coffee.
For females, ignore childbearing age, look for deaths aged 40~60. If found, assume heart disease, avoid coffee.
If most of your ancestors and siblings seem to live past 70, assume decent heart, drink coffee.
If most live past 80, you may safely ignore cause of death, even if from heart attack, because they didn't "really" die of a heart attack, they died because they were healthy and got old, like all healthy people do and everyone dies of something. Drink coffee.
Re:I keep wondering... (Score:2)
Isn't that fucking obvious?
Re:The baffled geek cries out (Score:4, Interesting)
I see your joke but it really is pathetic how one study tells you this and another tells you something contrary. I remember when eggs were good for you and then they weren't and now they are good again. Apples were good for you ("An apple a day keeps the doctor away") and then they weren't ("The sugar in an apple can rot your teeth", my dentist told me.). Now, they are good for you again. And there are other examples out there.
And the other thing that should not amaze me as much as it does is grammar. How about "Coffee May Not Be a Health Drink". "Coffee Maybe Not a Health Drink!" sounds like Ebonics.
Re:The baffled geek cries out (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The baffled geek cries out (Score:2)
You maybe not be up to something!
Warning: This May Be Harmful To Your Health (Score:5, Funny)
From a life-long geek's perspective:
Regarding health, it will be bad for someone's if I don't get my coffee.
Re:Coffee or muddy water? (Score:2)
Re:In other news. . . (Score:2)
The fact is, despite all our medical knowledge, our handle on genes and genetics, and the compendium of scientific information regardign anatomy and physiology, we