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Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD Not Over Yet
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:10 AM
from the just-gimme-hd-now dept.
from the just-gimme-hd-now dept.
samkass writes "Here is a good summary of the latest technical wheeling-and-dealing between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Among things that were new to me: the addition of a "red" 9GB HD format to Blu-Ray that would make initial Blu-Ray content (that fits) even cheaper than HD-DVD. Also, more discussion about managed copy (AACS, BD Plus, and ROM Mark) and iHD (HD-DVD) vs BD-J/Java (Blu-Ray)."
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Games: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD Talks End 389 comments
Last minute talks to unify the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats have failed. Matsushita, owner of the Panasonic brand, has stated 'the market will decide the winner.' From the article: "The two sides held talks last year in the hopes of avoiding a prolonged format battle similar to the one between Betamax and VHS videotapes in the 1980s, knowing that it could discourage consumers from shifting to the advanced discs and stifle the industry's growth. But the talks soon fizzled out, with each side reluctant to establish a format based on the other's disc structure. At stake is the $24 billion home video market and a slice of the personal computer market as PCs will be equipped with Blu-ray or HD DVD optical drives."
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Rootkit Included? (Score:5, Funny)
Format Wars! (Score:3, Funny)
My eyes glazed over on the story (Score:5, Funny)
(http://www.scottgant.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday October 31 2006, @03:12PM)
My acronym cup runneth over...
How about something DRM-Free? (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://vitalyb.wordpress.com/)
Re:How about something DRM-Free? (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Sunday July 01, @08:03AM)
Re:How about something DRM-Free? (Score:5, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Sunday August 05, @04:32PM)
This is what the fighting is about - these companies could care less about the formats, and very little about the final cost per disk, this is a fight to see who gets to provide the DRM software on your media.
Blu-Ray allows just as much freedom of copying (Score:5, Interesting)
Consider that Apple and Sony and HP and Dell are all in the Blu-Ray consortium, whereas over on the HD-DVD side there's Microsoft and... I'm not sure who else but not many other major tech companies. Which format do you think is going to be more able to allow copying between many different devices from different manufacturers (again all protected of course) instead of just between different Microsoft products?
If your idea of freedom is being able to buy whatever form of Microsoft box you like to play media - count me out!
I'm sure neither of course will let you play media on Linux, so to say you prefer one over the other is to proclaim allegence to only one particular brand of salt to the exclusion of all others.
More than I trust Sony (Score:4, Insightful)
Also they have no vested intrest in DRM past making the media companies happy. Microsoft owns no record labels or studios I'm aware of. They make software, not media. So it's in their intrests to make the consumers as happy as possible, while still appeasing the media companies. Happy consumers buy more Microsoft toys. Sony's intrest is in screwing consumers so they make the most money on their media.
Re:How about something DRM-Free? (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/~Doc%20Ruby/journal | Last Journal: Thursday March 31 2005, @01:48PM)
How about focusing your sickness of the "pessimistic crap" on Sony, where the bad news originates?
The real question is: (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The real question is: (Score:5, Informative)
(http://projectx.gamerznet.com/)
BluRay will win says TFA (Score:3, Interesting)
XBOX360 DOES NOT SUPPORT HD-DVD (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.yafla.com/dforbes/ | Last Journal: Tuesday September 27 2005, @10:43AM)
This keeps getting stated on here, and it is entirely untrue. People are confused because Microsoft tepidly put their backing behind HD-DVD, yet the Xbox360 actually uses neither - it is standard old school 9GB DVD.
Re:BluRay will win says TFA (Score:5, Funny)
So, they will win the platform war, but so many Sony employees will be killed in the process that it will be judged to have not been worth it?
Bold prediction there.
Can Blue Ray (Red) play on existing computers now? (Score:5, Interesting)
If it's existing DVD production, is it readable by *existing* DVD players like those in a computer. In other words can I get a codec and play it in a PC, (even if I need to update the DVD firmware to do it)?
Sure the codec means it won't immediately be playable on the DivX/MPEG4/DVD boxes, but can it play on a PC?
If they can do that, that would be a HD-DVD killer.
Re:Can Blue Ray (Red) play on existing computers n (Score:5, Informative)
(Last Journal: Tuesday September 13 2005, @03:45PM)
Isn't it just a 2 layer DVD? (Score:4, Insightful)
They say it can be made in standard plants, so it must be damn similar to a standard format presumably?
Maybe, but it would mean $50 players (Score:4, Insightful)
If its basically a DVD compatible thing that PCs can play with a codec/firmware tweak, then it is only a matter of time before the dirt cheap $50 DIVX/MPEG4/DVD players add support as a firmware change.
That market is huge, just look in an electrical store and they stack those buggers on pallets for volume sale.
That's what I'm thinking there, that this disk could become the volume market item, playing on computers and slightly more modern DVD(+mpeg4+divx) players together with PCs, and if you then go out and buy a HD TV, you get the high definition version too without upgrading your DVD's which would be another plus.
Content? (Score:3, Insightful)
"Assuming equal pricing and availability of hardware"
The thing is, I don't forsee it being equal availability of hardware.. I don't know how many PS2s have been sold, or were sold within three months of release, but I'm sure it was a lot larger number than the number of early adoptors that would run out and buy a brand new HD-DVD player.
I guess my point is, if there are for sure going to be millions of Blu-ray players in houses all over the US, and there's no such assurance about HD-DVD players, I can't see places stocking shelves full of HD-DVDs.
Yes, it is. (Score:3, Interesting)
And once that pan flashes, a few people in management are going to be revealed as dumbasses for misjudging technology.
You ARE joking, right? (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.widescreen.org/ | Last Journal: Wednesday February 15 2006, @07:44PM)
Not likely. Perhaps when FIOS becomes commonplace and available to every person on the face of the planet, but there is no chance that the mainstream user will accept on-line access as the only way to gain video in the near future.
A two-hour movie in really good, MPEG-2 quality takes up approximately 7-8 GB, depending on audio options. Even with a 6 Gb cable connection, that takes roughly three hours to download. (For those who hadn't noticed, that means that it would take longer to download than to watch, so streaming at full quality is not an option.)
Now, bring in HD. About 75 minutes of HD-quality material takes roughly the same amount of space. Expand that to a 2-hour movie and you're looking at anywhere between 12-14 GB of data. That same 6 Gb cable connection would take about six hours to download that movie. In the same amount of time, I could have run to the nearest BR/HD-DVD rental store, watched the movie -- possibly twice -- and returned it. This of course assumes that your "unlimited use" ISP doesn't then knock your ass down for using up "too much" of your "unlimited use" bandwidth after downloading three or four HD movies. And don't even THINK about doing streaming HD unless you've got some enormous network pipe to your house!
Even discounting the fact that every house will NOT be connected via FIOS (or even broadband) in the coming years, thus requiring a physical medium in order to watch the video content, people want a physical medium without restrictive DRM. That has been proven time and time again. The recent Sony debacle should be proof enough of that. People are obviously buying physical discs even though the music is available on-line.
Video games are also sold on-line by a lot of different vendors for a discounted price, yet boxed media are still preferred. Why? Because there is a comfort factor in having the disc in your hands, not worrying about if your computer is connected to the Internet in order to install and play it. There's also no concern about downloading it again or having to authenticate it again (for the most part), and so on.
Ah, so then comes the argument about backing the movies or games off to another medium in the event of a recovery or for backup purposes. Oh, wait. We can't use that argument because there is no need for physical media if everything is distributed on-line! You said so yourself.
On-line definitely has its place. The success of iTunes and the recent announcements by major networks to have their shows distributed electronically is definitely a step toawrds on-line distribution. But unless you plan on every house in the world having a dedicated DS3 connection, the notion that all material - particiularly HD - will be distributed exclusively through digital means is preposterous at best and will likely not come in any of our lifetimes. I guess that you also expect people to have multi-terrabyte storage for each system as well. After all, all of that content has to be stored somewhere when it's downloaded. Or did you actually expect people to be on-line for every movie that they want to watch? Well, I guess that makes a market for automotive broadband on the newest Winnebago line, doesn't it?
Oh, and by the way -- ALL technology is "temporary" because new technology is always evolving from old technology. So, your statement about "temporary technology" alone is fallacious.
In the meantime, please let us know what it is that you have been smoking because it seems like it's some really good shit. The fact that you've been modded as "Insightful" is staggering - or else it's indicative that mod points shouldn't be handed out as much as they are.
It's over for me no matter what anyone else does (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.scronline.com/)
So, personally, anything using Blu-Ray will not be purchased by me.
Company wise, Blu-Ray will only be used at the express request from the customer.
Dear Sony, Toshiba, LG, Phillips etc. (Score:5, Insightful)
Just agree on a fucking format and stick with it. I won't be buying anything; either BluRay or HD-DVD, until one format is clearly ahead. That means you; every single one of you petty little bastards, will lose out. Just like you all lost on on DVD writer format wars. Do I care what the difference is between DVD-R & DVD+R? Have I ever even seen a DVD-RAM disc? Fuck no, I just want to write a DVD that can be read in other drives. How much R&D did you all waste? How much additonal design is required to acomodate all these different standards? How many sales oppurtunities have been wasted because you've confused the market?
Same thing here. Now get on with it.
But who own in VHS vs Betamax? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not the case with HD-DVD and Blu-ray. They aren't compatible and it looks like no plans to make it so. So you need one player for one, a different one for the other. History has shown that shit won't fly. People will buy one format, not two. So there's very likely to be a winner and a loser in this format war unless dual HD-DVD/Blu-ray players come out.
First post? (Score:1, Insightful)
Crack that firmware! (Score:3, Interesting)
(http://www.unity08.com/)
One irony, though, is that the DMCA would prevent software authors from accessing the firmware to make the determination as to whether their own copyrights were being violated.
History Repeats itself...? (Score:3, Insightful)
Blu-Ray will be Infected with DRM (Score:5, Funny)
You can't polish a turd, no matter how big and blue it is.
oh well (Score:3, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Tuesday May 10 2005, @03:47PM)
gov't interference (Score:2)
(http://assambassador.com/)
Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD Not OVer Yet ? (Score:4, Insightful)
Capacity, not DRM (Score:1)
Durability too (Score:4, Insightful)
For me what matters is disk capacity. The more the better.
While this is usually the main desire for most people, I'd personally be just as interested in a slightly more durable material. I try to take good care of my DVDs, but invariably one will get a nick or a scratch on it, and then it's a hit-or-miss game of trying to repair it.
If you could store 100TB on a disc, only to have one scratch render half of it unreadable... that would suck.
The Hardware will Probably Support Both Like DVDR (Score:2, Insightful)
Lets... (Score:1)
(http://ofteninspired.com/ | Last Journal: Sunday April 01 2007, @05:49PM)
What's so great about random access, anyhow?
I knew these fancy optical storage formats were just a flash in the pan...
Two ways to settle this.... (Score:2)
2. Give both formats to porn producers. Whichever one they choose wins.
Simple isn't it?
Makes no sense (Score:2)
(http://www.silentbrouhaha.com/ | Last Journal: Saturday July 31 2004, @07:42AM)
More draconian DRM (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://projectx.gamerznet.com/)
My aching head! (Score:2)
Let the n00b say this (Score:3, Funny)
Take the Blue laser or the Red laser? (Score:5, Informative)
The bottom line is which format holds more data, is cheaper and is consumer-friendly, IMHO.
From http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#1.5 [blu-ray.com] and http://www.hddvdprg.com/hddvd/hddvd_3.html [hddvdprg.com]
---How much data can you fit on a Blu-ray disc?
A single-layer disc can fit 23.3GB, 25GB or 27GB.
A dual-layer disc can fit 46.6GB, 50GB or 54GB.
HD-DVD can hold 15, 30, 32GB
---How much video can you record on a Blu-ray disc?
Over 2 hours of high-definition television (HDTV) on a 25GB disc. About 13 hours of standard-definition television (SDTV) on a 25GB disc.
HD-DVD can hold 4hrs HDTV on 15GB disc, 8hrs HDTV on 30GB disc
---How fast can you read/write data on a Blu-ray disc?
According to the Blu-ray Disc specification, 1x speed is defined as 36Mbps.
HD-DVD speed is 36.55Mbps
Its irrelevant (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.pattensoap.com/)
These new discs only "use" at the end of the day will be for computer storage, but flash drives are about to hit 100gig, so even for that use the new generation discs will be irrelevant.
Just remember you heard it here first. These discs won't gain the type of saturation that DVD and VHS have had. These both will have market share more like beta. The true winners will be companies like Verizon and SBC who are brining fiber to everyone's door. Comcast also has a pretty sweet strategy for delivering content on demand.
I won't use anything that sony publishes.. (Score:2)
(http://www.moogr.com/ | Last Journal: Friday October 31 2003, @12:16PM)
Enough about DRM, Rootkits and bad "netizenships". Sony has got to go if this how the "play ball"
HD-DVD all the way!
What is the point of either format?? (Score:3, Interesting)
The only reason that I can see for upgrading (not that we will have the choice) would be if either standard better consumer value:
No more £60 box-sets (you'd never pay that for one disc - I reckon publishers will use the excuse of high definition etc to continue using multiple discs to cover TV series)
Use some of the spare capacity on the discs to back-up the data in other areas (hopefully making them more durable / resistant to scratches - no more skipping discs!)
I'm not against Blu-Ray or HD-DVD per se, as far as I'm concerned technology progression is a great thing, I just can't help thinking that either format will fail to benefit consumers as fully as it might. Also, will either standard be available (soon) in an R/W format?
WB wants a third format? (Score:2)
we here at WB figured it would be in our best interest to produce DVD materials for you, the consumer at poor quality. We sat down, read over the specs for what HD quality MPEG-2 should be, and decided to aim low. Like bottom of the barrel.
So, no fear from us, you'll get the same first gen crap from us that you did with DVD. We feel that it's important here at WB to "test" the waters with low quality media. Better us to make you, the paying consumer, the guinea pig than produce something correctly the first time. If you bite, we save a ton of money. We're talking easily a good dime per DVD produced. What will this mean at the register to you? Nothing! We wouldn't want to charge you more. No, we'd rather save that dime per in the factory and pass the crap along to you, then repackage it and "try" to justify the extra release. Double dip? More like Double Awesome! For you! Good job buying DVD's. You make us proud!
Now get back out there, you good consumer you, and go see WB's "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" on Friday. We've got sequels to make.
Red Blu-Ray? (Score:4, Funny)
(http://symbii.com/)
What I want (Score:1)
(Last Journal: Thursday November 17 2005, @12:43AM)
Now I know people bitch about how a case would be "too clunky" and "I can't use a spindel!" But I'd much rather have the media protected...I always thought it was stupid to have the sensitive part out in the air like that.
But given Sony's EULA [eff.org], this will never happen.
won't bother (Score:2, Insightful)
(http://www.jillesvangurp.com/)
DVD = Floppy of our time (Score:2)
From an efficiency point of view it doesn't seem to make sense to keep hauling stuff around on funny plastic discs. Perhaps in a few years from now both Blu-ray and HD-DVD will be irrelevant.
9GB red blue-ray (Score:2)
(http://novasearch.net/)
Is this really anything new? I mean, Microsoft has been putting HD content onto standard DVDs for a while now, using MPEG-4 instead of h.264.
boycott for now, there are alternatives (Score:5, Interesting)
There are several formats that can be used to create HD content on existing DVD disks.
Windows HiDef Media
Divx
Quicktime (via h.264/mpeg4)
H.264 (mpeg4)
H.264 is the future of HD broadcast and you can fit an entire 2 hour HD (720p or 1080i/p) movie on existing DVD disks with room to spare
JVC already has a player out that plays all these formats including m2t files (HDV in mpeg2 format)using existing DVD writable formats.
We should simply bypass Sony and Toshiba and finally use our PCs and home theater servers the way we want to.
And it would all be legal.
Funny thing is, for once, MS is on our side, even if it's for the wrong reasons.
here is the link to the jvc SRDVD-100U
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/features.jsp?f
Has built in ethernet and streaming capabilities (movies, audio...). Pretty cool, but may be to expensive to some.
Why is this even an issue? (Score:1)
You get all this and more for the price of DRM.
Problems with BlueRay (Score:1)
It simply doesn't matter... (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Sunday September 09, @05:43PM)
It's all about TV, right? I don't know about you, but for me, I'm watching less TV, not more. HD quality doesn't really make the material any better. Why would I care if a crappy program looks better?
My prediction? Both formats will fall on disinterested comsumers, simply because they really don't care that much about HD. When the industry shakes out to the point that HD gear is as easy to use as conventional, then maybe this stuff will get a foothold. Until then, most consumers don't want to go through the hassle of HD, even if it means that their movies look better.
Can't imagine why I think this? Consider the DVD-Audio market and you'll see the same issue. CD's are "good enough". Why mess with DVD-Audio? (Fold in some DRM nonsense, and it looks even bleaker for HD...)
What pull does HP have? (Score:3, Interesting)
While it's not much of a surprise to see HP licking Microsofts boots and demanding people use the MS menu standard, I am surprised that anyone in the Blu-Ray consortium would take them very seriously. In terms of support for the format the people that really matter are the studios as they are the ones that will be providing content compelling enough to make or break the system.
Now Warner Brothers arguing for support of the BD-9 disc - that I could see happening, and would probably help the format gain a little adoption in the short term. I think though in the long term it will slow adoption because too many studios will be tempted to put out overly-compressed releases on BD-9 and not a higher quality feed that needs the storage capacity of the larger BD-25 discs. People will not buy into HD-DVD or Blu-Ray if the benefits are perceived as marginal.
Blu-Ray still has a giant ace in the hole with the PS3 supporting the format, millions of people suddenly having Blu-Ray players will not hurt much at all! And since HD-DVD has pretty much decided to sit out this Christmas season I just can't see HD-DVD player sales ramping up fast ebough to get even close to the volume of PS3 launch day.
It doesn't matter. (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://www.allappropriatetech.com/)
People are happy with DVD, and will be for a while yet. I think that this storm will blow over before people become unhappy with DVD. Many do not even realise that their DVDs that they are watching on their HD TVs aren't HD, because they are better than analogue SD.
That said, I will consider HD-DVD or Blu-Ray only when it appears that there is a clear winner, and it is compatible with my TV. Compatible means that it either puts out a 1080i analogue signal on component jacks, or that I am ready to replace my TV for some other reason.
On another front, I noticed that there is now a HD version of Divx ;-). It is capable of storing an HD movie in DVD-sized files.
9Gb BluRay format a great idea. (Score:1, Interesting)
It is obviously cheaper than making BluRay Discs.
It opens the possibility of using DVD-/+R and RW discs for media.
It holds about 15-30 minutes of HD format data (extrpolating from BluRay HDF moview length:storage ratios)
What posibilities does this size give:
*Short films, Promotonal vides, trailers etc. that are less than 30 minutes can be produced cheaply.
*Perhaps single episodes of TV shows could be fit on the 9Gb size.
What possibilities does the use of exisiting DVD burners writting to this format give:
*End user / consumer making and burning their own HD home movies from their HD camcorders.
Consumer HD camcorders coudl be made blueRay comaptible but use cheaper DVD type burners and cheap 9Gb media limtied to 30minute 9Gb recording.
*Media types can subsitute long video files with short "thumbs" and quickly trial new/advanced interactive content and menu structures without costly Bluray burners.
Who thinks up this crap? (Score:1)
DVD Jon (Score:1)
Whichever name pops up first, I am siding with that format.
it's already over (Score:1)
Both formats will fail. (Score:2)
(http://www.ravenna.com/~forbes/)
Joe Public isn't demanding better picture quality from his next-gen DVD player -- Joe Public isn't even that enthusiastic about HDTV, for that matter: Unless Hollywood stops focusing on DRM and starts producing content that sucks less, high-def DVD will be dead on arrival. The average buyer isn't going to shell out money to watch Herbie: Fully Loaded in high-def, and the videophiles aren't motivated to throw out their DVD collections and buy the same content again in newer packaging.
And don't even get me started on data: This is the industry that couldn't even come together on a standard for this generation's DVD data disc. I can't wait for HD-RW, Blu-Ray+RW and HBlue*RW to hit the market.
Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD vs Holographic Storage !! (Score:1)
(http://www.colossalstorage.net/)
http://holoforum.com/ [holoforum.com]
It's just DVD with new encryption (Score:1)
(Last Journal: Friday May 20 2005, @03:42AM)